Transcript – Episode 171
[Show music begins]
Michael Harle: This is Episode 171 of Alohomora! for January 2, 2016.
[Show music continues]
Michael: Welcome back, listeners, to a new episode of Alohomora!, MuggleNet.com’s global reread of the Harry Potter series. And Happy New Year!
[Everyone cheers]
Michael: I’m Michael Harle.
Alison Siggard: I’m Alison Siggard.
Kat Miller: And I’m Kat Miller. And our special guest today is Ryan! Hello, Ryan.
Ryan Farmer: What’s going on, guys?
Kat: Hey, thank you so much for joining us.
Ryan: I’m so excited.
Kat: Yay! We’re happy to have you. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.
Ryan: Okay, so I’m Ryan, and according to Pottermore – or what was Pottermore – I’m a Hufflepuff.
Michael: Yay!
Alison: Woo!
Ryan: Yay Hufflepuff! And I also have a rowan wand with a dragon heartstring core, which is great. And I live in Los Angeles doing all kinds of fun movie stuff.
Kat: Movie stuff?
Ryan: Nothing related to the new movie, so…
Alison: Aww.
Ryan: I know.
Kat: Well, that’s fine; what kind of movie stuff?
Ryan: I work for comedian Christopher Titus and his production company.
Michael: Oh, I remember Christopher Titus.
Ryan: Yeah, he’s awesome.
Michael: He used to have a TV show!
Ryan: He did, yeah. So [I’m] doing all kinds of really cool things.
Kat: Guys, we know a pretty famous person now.
Alison: [laughs] We have connections.
Michael: How many degrees are we away from Kevin Bacon with this?
Ryan: I think he’s met Kevin Bacon at least once.
Michael: Oh my God.
[Everyone laughs]
Ryan: So yeah.
Michael: It works. It still holds up. [laughs]
Ryan: It holds up. Oh, yeah.
Alison: How many degrees away from Potter actors are we, though? That’s the real question.
Ryan: Oh, I don’t know. That’s a different game.
Kat: I mean, probably less than Kevin Bacon because there’s 4,000 people in the Potter cast.
Ryan: All but Kevin Bacon.
Kat: Yeah.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: There’s still two more Fantastic Beasts movies that haven’t been fully cast yet. Kevin Bacon still has a shot.
[Alison laughs]
Ryan: Kevin Bacon can be a Gryffindor any day.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: I don’t know, would he be a Gryffindor? I don’t know.
Ryan: It’s Kevin Bacon.
Kat: We’ll have to examine that one. It can be in a special feature.
Michael: Would Kevin Bacon eat the Desk!Pig?
Alison: [laughs] Oh, gosh.
Kat: I don’t know; they’re vegetarian, aren’t they?
Michael and Ryan: I don’t know.
Kat: I feel like [he] and Kyra Sedgwick are vegetarians. I’m probably making that up; I don’t know.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Kat: Anyway…
Michael: Anyway, this show isn’t about Kevin Bacon. This show is about Harry Potter. [laughs]
Kat: Really?
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Really! Who would’ve thought?
Ryan: I thought you guys said I was going to be on the Kevin Bacon podcast.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Whoopsy daisy.
Ryan: Okay.
Michael: But in the context of Harry Potter, and not Kevin Bacon, we will be reading Chapter 21, “The Tale of the Three Brothers” today from Deathly Hallows and examining that. So listeners, make sure to take a look at that chapter before listening to this episode so you can get the most out of our discussion from today.
Kat: But you guys know the drill by now. Before we go onto that chapter, we’re gong to talk about some comments from last week’s chapter, which was Chapter 20: “Xenophilius Lovegood”. And our first comment here comes from DoraNympha.
Michael: No, it doesn’t, it comes from Kevin Bacon.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Oh, sorry. I didn’t see the nickname in the quotes there.
[Michael laughs]
Ryan: It’s okay; DoraNympha is only three degrees away from Kevin Bacon probably.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Kat: Probably. All right, so the comment says,
“Does anyone feel sorry for Luna right now? I’m sure her dad loves her and they are as happy as they can be without Luna’s mum, but the fact remains that Xenophilius continues to do stuff like keep Erumpent horns at home to explode at any second, like, Luna is not an idiot, she might seem like she takes her dad’s word for granted, all those creatures she believes in and stuff, but she must be really worried that her dad’ll one day blow himself up too. I don’t think it’s even a question whether it was wrong of Xenophilius to try to trade the trio for Luna, he’s her father, I don’t blame him for a second – I do blame him for being such a careless person, though. Luna also didn’t have any friends before the DA, it’s a bit sad to think she has to worry about losing her dad to an experiment gone wrong, too. Also, if he’s so into nature, magical plants and animals alike, how does he not recognize the horn anyway? Could he be a bit out of touch with reality in general, due to his wife’s death? Maybe he lives in his own world even more than Luna, lying to himself about facts like whether a horn is explosive or not. I’m sure he used to be eccentric but sane before but shouldn’t he be a bit more responsible now, for Luna’s sake?”
So I wanted to bring this up because I thought it was a really good… I just thought it was a good examination of Xenophilius’s character because we always take him as this little wacky, kind of crazy, maybe a little out of touch kind of guy, and I never personally really thought about why he is that way.
Ryan: I think a little bit, too, Xenophilius… he talks about, in this chapter, Hermione’s faults; how she’s not unintelligent, but limited and close-minded. I think that one of Xenophilius’s faults is that he’s too open-minded about things, and so he doesn’t think rationally about some of the consequences of some of the stuff that happens, like printing “Supporting Harry Potter” Quibblers and taking horns that he is just so open-minded about he thinks it’s the Snorkack.
Kat: Right.
Michael: Yeah, I thought the idea that his wife’s death possibly made him this way to some degree is interesting. I’m not sure if that’s the case or not because we don’t have enough accounts of what Luna’s mom was like. We just basically… I get the sense that she was also moderately eccentric herself because she was… I mean, the fact, too, that she was willing to be as extreme of a potion experimenter that she killed herself in the process by accident, I would think probably gives a sense that she was willing to try unconventional things.
Kat: It does just add a little bit of a tragic angle to his personality, though, doesn’t it?
Alison: Yeah.
Ryan: Oh, for sure.
Kat: Thinking about it like this: His wife’s death really affected him and now he’s acting like this because of that and that influenced it so much.
Alison: Yeah, I definitely… I’ve seen a case where – in that case it was actually the husband who died – and people can sometimes… especially if their spouse was more outgoing, which I almost get the sense that Luna’s mom was, they draw into themselves a little bit more. And so I can see that happening to Xenophilius where he just drew into his own little world a little bit more and immersed himself a little bit more in his more eccentric sides and his…
Ryan: I think his eccentricity is also attributed to the fact that he’s looking for distractions, too, potentially because of the death of his wife; other things to keep him busy so his mind’s always thinking of extra crazy and wacky things even more so than possibly before her death.
Kat: Right.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: I think [in] this chapter we’ll see that there’s definitely evidence that Xenophilius still is obviously traumatized by his wife’s death based on what he says about his fear of losing Luna – which would make sense for any parent – but the way he phrases it suggests that she’s pretty much all he has left.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: So I do think that this comment actually gives a little too much leeway to Luna. I don’t think Luna is stupid; Luna is exceedingly smart. But I do think Luna, just like her father, does allow her open views to occasionally still cloud her judgement. I think we often see that Luna… for the most part, her open-mindedness ends up being a good thing a lot in the series, but I don’t think she would object to the Erumpent horn at this point in her life. I think someday when she’s… you guys mentioned it last week, but someday when she marries Rolf Scamander and goes touring around the world and they go to Africa and he’s like, “This is an Erumpent, Luna. This was the horn that your dad had in his house. Don’t put these in our house.”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Maybe then. [laughs] I think with the education that she’ll eventually get with Rolf, I think then she’ll… because I think Rowling actually did say that Luna’s beliefs have still remained… her mind has still remained very open, but her wild beliefs have been a bit tempered over the years since, so…
Kat: Yeah, I suppose when she lives separate from her father, right?
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: But yes, her father should be a little bit more responsible and not bring explosives in the house, absolutely.
[Alison laughs]
Kat: Probably not.
Ryan: Tend to agree with that.
Alison: Well, I think something this comment almost gets close to touching on, too, is: This could see why Luna is such a caring person and she notices things other people don’t because she’s been taking care of her dad for so long in a way, if we do what this comment is saying about him is that she’s been… if he’s out of touch then Luna could’ve been in some ways taking care of him for years and so she’s developed that caring nature where she just sees need in people.
Kat: Aww. She’s a sweetheart.
Ryan: Yeah.
Alison: I love Luna.
Michael: That’s why we like her.
Kat: Yeah.
Ryan: She has the most huggable face I’ve ever seen.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: That’s definitely something I’ve never heard about Luna before. I kind of agree. Huggable face. All right, so since we talked briefly about the house just a minute ago, we’re going to move onto our next comment from RoseLumos, which actually focuses on their house. The comment says,
“As a Ravenclaw, I have a different interpretation on the Lovegood’s rook house. Chess is considered a logical game, where every move has to be carefully considered. Like math or science, there is only one answer. However, the creativity comes from crafting a solution or strategy. I feel like chess is a very Ravenclaw game, or at least something a Ravenclaw could appreciate. We often say that Luna is the ultimate Ravenclaw, so I wonder if this is Jo’s subtle reminder about her character. Also, it could be another clue towards finding the diadem, since Harry and Luna first need to go to Ravenclaw tower to get a good look at it.”
So then there’s a follow-up comment here from WhoDoYouKnowThatsLostAButtock and it says,
“Castling is a move in chess where you swap your rook’s position (not precisely, there’s a square or two difference) with that of your king, to protect your king when he is particularly exposed, or when you want to free up your rook. The move can only be used once per rook, and you cannot have moved your rook before castling. King and rook must also be on the same row to make it work. Interesting parallels, if you see Harry as the king whose position now lines up with Xenophilius’s. Xeno sees an opportunity to make a move to free Luna by swapping the two’s positions – Harry for Luna. He knows Harry’s importance, but he can’t lose his daughter. That train of thought set me on thinking about how, while to us Harry is the most important piece in the game, everyone’s king is different. To Xeno, Luna’s position is far more important – she is HIS king. But either way, an important exchange is about to be attempted. Even more interesting to note that the move evolved from a move on which the knight acts on the King’s behalf, which made me think of the most recent chapter, with Ron, our knight, stepping in to act in Harry’s stead. After all, Weasley is our king.”
Michael: Oh my God, that was amazing.
Alison: Wow.
Ryan: So much more symbology there than I even thought was possible.
Kat: Is that a word?
Ryan: Nope, just made it up.
[Alison laughs]
Kat: Cool, I like it.
Michael: Symbology?
Kat and Ryan: Symbology.
Michael: Not a word.
Kat: I thought that that was brilliant.
Michael: Crazy tie-in, but all of that… taking the plot of Harry Potter and plotting it as chess moves makes me think of Alice Through the Looking Glass.
Ryan: Oh, yeah.
Kat: Ooh.
Michael: Which works as a great tie-in, too, because Luna is kind of an Alice in many ways.
Kat: Yeah.
Alison: Definitely.
Michael: Physically, she resembles Alice, which I don’t think was actually a mistake. And like Alice, she is inclined to believe incredible things, more so than her superiors and her peers. So I could definitely see this being the idea. I think the chess thing is definitely not something to rule out because the text points out the chess relationship.
Alison: Yeah.
Kat: Right. Well, and a commenter – I forget which one says it – but they do say obviously that this wasn’t something Jo was totally conscious of, but still a very interesting theory.
Ryan: I mean, the rook can also only move forward or backward or left and right, so if Xenophilius isn’t moving forward, he’s backtracking.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Kat: He is indeed.
Michael: Yeah. I like, too, the reference to Ravenclaw. I don’t think there’s a strong instance of tying Ravenclaw to chess otherwise in the series, but that made me think of the Order of the Phoenix video game because you have to go to three of the houses to play chess against them. Interestingly, Hufflepuff is not included as a chess master in that game.
Ryan: Classic.
Alison: Wow.
Kat: I was so bad at that. I remember I had to have my boyfriend at the time play the chess games for me. I was like, “Beat this!”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Well, and the Ravenclaw player is the hardest player to beat. She’s almost impossible, too, the AI that’s programmed for the Ravenclaw player. She sees your every move. It’s amazing. And I’ve actually had to have friends beat her for me and it takes forever.
Ryan: It’s so clever.
Michael: Yeah, so I could see Ravenclaw being associated with chess. That makes sense to me.
Kat: Yeah, totally.
Ryan: I’m on board with that.
Alison and Michael: Yeah.
Kat: Good, I’m glad we’re all in agreement. But that’s it, guys. That’s our recap comments from this week. So there were, as usual, significantly more so head over to alohomora.mugglenet.com and definitely read the rest. Keep the conversation going.
Alison: All right, and now we’re going to move onto our Podcast Question of the Week responses. So our question last week, as posed by Kat, is a lovely question, and it says: “Xenophilius mentions that he received the ‘Erumpent Horn’ from a ‘delightful young wizard who knew of my interest in the exquisite Snorkack,’ and that he intended it as an early Christmas surprise for Luna. This reminded us of the moment when Hagrid ‘wins’ Norbert(a) in a drunk game from a disguised Quirrell. Given the similarities in these situations, who do we think the ‘delightful young wizard’ that Xenophilius met, was? Is it a Death Eater trap, or purely a coincidence?”
Michael: This was a good question.
Alison: It is.
Michael: Because I felt like this was a dropped plot point or something.
Ryan: The first thing I thought of when you guys said this last week was, after you mentioned Xenophilius and everything, if he knew Hagrid. I just thought… I pictured Xenophilius playing a drunk game with Hagrid over stuff.
[Everyone laughs]
Ryan: And it just sounds like the most fun thing ever.
Michael: [laughs] The incredible things you would have to believe, sitting at a table with Hagrid and Xenophilius at the same time.
Kat: Oh, boy.
[Michael laughs]
Ryan: I know, right?
Alison: We got lots of good responses for this. All over the board; you guys had lots of opinions. And our first one comes from Yellow Badger, who says,
“On page 420 of the US addition, the Death Eater Selwyn mentions that Xenophilius had tried two weeks ago to trade proof of the existence of the Crumple-Horned Snorkack in order to get Luna back. On page 401, Xenophilius mentions that he bought the horn two weeks ago. I assume the Erumpent horn was what Xenophilius attempted to use as proof of the Crumple-Horned Snorkack’s existence. And I doubt a Death Eater gave him the horn in the first place, or else Xenophilius wouldn’t have attempted to use it as proof. Perhaps Xenophilius was desperate to find proof of the Snorkack to get Luna back, and a younger version of Mundungus Fletcher took advantage of this and sold the horn to Xenophilius at a high price. Maybe Xenophilius himself didn’t believe that the horn was from a Snorkack and was trying to trick the Death Eaters. This might make sense because it seems an incredible coincidence that Xenophilius, who had been searching for a Snorkack for many years, got what he thought was its horn just two weeks ago. Either way, it seems unlikely that Xenophilius knew that the horn would easily explode, or else he probably would have been more cautious about where he stored it.”
Michael: I like the…
Kat: Mundungus.
Michael: Yeah, that’s a good tie-in, with Mundungus because that brings back the reminder that Diagon Alley is teeming with black market deals right now.
Kat: Mhm. Hmm.
Alison: Yeah, I thought it was an interesting idea, too, that they connected it to his trying to trick the Death Eaters to get Luna back by offering proof. So his desperate attempt.
Ryan: Yeah, that makes sense.
Kat: Well, that’s in the text, right?
Michael: Yeah, that’s textual. That’s in this chapter.
Alison: Yeah, yeah. But the way they put that together based on the text was that he went looking for it in an attempt, or even knew it wasn’t a Snorkack horn.
Kat: I think he 1,000 percent believed it was a Snorkack horn.
Michael: Yeah, I think the comment confirmed that, too, at the end that he thought it was a Snorkack horn. [laughs]
Alison: Yeah.
Ryan: If I’m a businessman in Diagon Alley and I see Xenophilius Lovegood walking around, I’m going to try to sell him something that’s a Snorkack horn.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: That’s true. He’s got “sucker” written on him, doesn’t he?
Ryan: Oh, yeah.
Alison: Our next comment then comes from kj rowling. Guys!
Kat: Oh my God, it’s Jo!
Michael: No, that’s definitely not.
Alison: She’s just trying to disguise herself!
[Everyone laughs]
Ryan: It’s Kevin Bacon again.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Yeah, that’s definitely Kevin Bacon.
Kat: Yeah.
Alison: Well, the comment says,
“I first thought that the young wizard was Rolf Scamander, Luna’s future husband. His age is logical. He would probably be a few years older than Luna, just out of Hogwarts. But looking back, why would Rolf give Xeno something so dangerous, especially since he is educated in Magical Beasts? But after thinking more, Xeno points his spell straight at the horn when he tries to take Harry, knowing it would explode. He may have wanted the horn, so he sought out Rolf, who sold him the horn. Xeno could use the horn to try to “prove” the existence of the Snorkack to get Luna back, but also use it to cause a diversion or signal trouble in case he needed it.”
So this is a darker take; that it was purposeful.
Kat: But Xeno is not shooting the spell at the horn; he’s shooting it at the three of them, and it just happens to hit the horn, right?
Michael: Yeah, he shoots it at Harry.
Ryan: Or maybe Xenophilius is just like Dumbledore and [is] so smart he thinks eight steps ahead.
Kat: Maybe.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Yeah, these theories are all giving Xeno a lot of credit.
[Alison laughs]
Ryan: Yeah, maybe we’re just not giving Xenophilius enough credit, you guys.
Michael: [laughs] He’s super smart.
Kat: Impossible, but probable. Although, the Rolf thing is interesting. That could be how Luna meets him.
Alison: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. That’s an interesting tie-in to that.
Ryan: Luna goes back to her dad and she’s like, “Hey, I bought this dangerous thing from this guy and I totally want you to meet him.”
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Yeah. “He’s crazy and kooky, just like us!”
Michael: What a scamp, that Rolf Scamander.
[Ryan laughs]
Kat: What a scamp.
Michael: Selling Erumpent horns all over the place. Taking his dad’s Erumpent horn stash. [laughs]
Kat: No, I think that, if it was Rolf – which, I mean, the odds of that are slim – he would know what it is.
Alison: Oh yeah, definitely.
Kat: As this comment said.
Ryan: Oh, for sure.
Kat: So maybe, if it was Rolf, he was like, “Hey, here’s this Erumpent horn.” And Xeno is just like, “Yeah, I’m totally going to buy this,” but because he believes that it’s a Crumple-Horned Snorkack.
Michael: So just full-on ignoring the…?
Kat: Yeah, exactly.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: No, no, no.
Ryan: Oh, just like he ignores Hermione. “Sir, I’m telling you this is an Erumpent horn.” “No, no, you don’t know anything, child.”
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: “Pretty sure I do.”
Michael: That seems more likely.
Kat: Yeah, that’s what I think.
Alison: And our last comment then today comes from RoseLumos, who is changing the direction of who is coming up with plans here, and says,
“What if the horn was used as a Trojan Horse to get into the Lovegood house? The young wizard could have been a Death Eater undercover, trying to find out more about Xenophilius and the Quibbler. Anyone who reads the Quibbler would know that Xeno believed in the Snorkack and that he would have loved to have physical proof of it. With an item so large, he could have offered to help bring the horn inside. And what is in that room? The Quibbler printing press. Maybe the Death Eaters wanted a closer look at what Xeno was printing, or wanted to see if he was working with anyone. By offering to bring the horn in the house, the wizard would have had a perfect cover for getting a better look at his office and learning a lot more about Xeno and what he is working on.”
Michael: Ooh, that’s fun.
Kat: That’s probable.
Michael and Ryan: Yeah.
Michael: I like that. See, I like that everybody came up with such creative ideas just because really, like I said, this seems like a dropped plot point. Because the way that Xeno goes into the extensive detail of how he got it, I guess. Perhaps it’s just that Rowling’s trying to be like, “I’m trying to make this look a little less convenient that there’s a giant explosive in the room.”
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Because that’s their only way out.
Ryan: It really ranges on Xenophilius’s character here. He goes from a genius to a duffer.
[Everyone laughs]
Ryan: I’m not really sure. That’s another potentially made-up word, I’m not sure.
Michael: No, that’s a very British term.
Kat: That’s real.
Michael: That’s very British.
Ryan: Ah, nice.
Michael: [as Hagrid] “Hufflepuff are a load of duffers.”
Ryan: There, that’s where I’ve heard it.
Michael: Which is not true, Hagrid – rude.
[Alison and Ryan laugh]
Michael: But I like the idea that it ties into The Quibbler, since Xeno’s gone so long managing to write the things he wants to write under Voldemort’s regime.
Kat: Right. The thing I’m just wondering about now is, I’m thinking about them moving it and stuff. Like how big is big? Because if this is a highly illegal item, how do you hide that?
Alison: Yeah.
Kat: How do you transport that without somebody seeing it?
Michael: How do you transport it without it exploding?
[Alison laughs]
Kat: Oh, that too.
Ryan: Do they have like an Amazon Prime service…
Alison laughs]
Ryan: … where you can just Portkey stuff into your house? They set up a Portkey for stuff to just…
Kat: Maybe, but that seems dangerous.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: That’s the last thing I would want Portkeying into my house and exploding. [laughs]
Ryan: [laughs] That sounds very dangerous.
Alison: Isn’t there something in Fantastic Beasts about how to disable it?
Michael: No.
Alison: There’s not?
Michael: No, there is not actually. We’ll examine the Erumpent a little more closely in the chapter discussion, but as far as… unless [Newt Scamander] talks about it not under the Erumpent section, there is not a way.
Ryan: Another Ministry department?
Alison: There’s something in Quidditch Through the Ages where something explodes, like is full of something from a magical creature and it’s going to explode, and so they throw it in something.
Michael: You’re thinking of the Quaffle, but it’s not called the Quaffle when they… in Quadpot…
Alison: In Quadpot.
Kat: Quadpot, yeah.
Michael: That’s not… that actually comes from an explosive enchantment…
Alison: Okay, okay.
Michael: … not a Erumpent horn. But there is a potion solution to ensure that it doesn’t explode. So there’s obstensibly a potion that you could combat your Erumpent horn with… I’m not sure. Or maybe the Erumpent horn fluid is actually meant to be used in that potion to make things not explode. I don’t know. [unintelligible]
Alison: Yeah, I don’t remember.
Michael: I’m not a potioneer.
[Alison laughs]
Kat: Sounds good to me, Eric… oh my God! I did it again.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Fine, I’m Eric on this episode. Fine, that’s fine.
Ryan: Allegedly you guys sound the same anyways.
Kat: They don’t.
Alison: Didn’t we tell…
Michael: [unintelligible] … which is why this is weird. [laughs]
Alison: Yeah, they don’t.
Michael: Anyway, yeah, Erumpent horns are bad. Don’t bring them in your house.
Ryan: No Portkeying them.
Michael: No, do not Portkey them in.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: I do like though that there’s like an espionage plot from the Death Eaters in this.
[Alison laughs]
Ryan: I like that, too.
Kat: Seems fancy.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, it does seem more in line with Xeno’s character. It’s a really cool idea to suggest that he’s pulling a Dumbledore and is smarter than he’s acting, but I don’t think that’s the case.
[Alison laughs]
Ryan: Me neither.
Kat: No, probably not.
Alison: Well, that is our comments for this week’s [Podcast] Question of the Week. Thank you so much, everyone who answered. There [are] a lot of great answers that kind of go through different ideas as well, so head on over to alohomora.mugglenet.com and check them out.
Michael: But for now, it’s time to go into Chapter 21.
[Deathly Hallows Chapter 21 intro begins]
Hermione: Chapter 21: “The Tale of the Three Brothers.”
[Deathly Hallows Chapter 21 intro ends]
Michael: Questioning Xenophilius Lovegood on the meaning of the Deathly Hallows, the trio discover that Hermione has unwittingly been in possession of the answer the entire time. Hermione reads aloud Beedle the Bard’s eerie fairy tale “The Tale of the Three Brothers,” in which Antioch, Cadmus and Ignotus Peverell attempt to cheat Death, with two of the brothers losing their lives due to foolhardy behavior, while the youngest, Ignotus, wisely realizes that Death can never truly be outdone. Debating Xenophilius’s suggestion that the story is true and that the Deathly Hallows actually exist, the trio start to realize that there are at least two of the Hallows accounted for, one of which is potentially in their possession. Amidst these revelations, Harry discovers clues suggesting that Luna has not been home for quite some time, and Xenophilius’s latest Quibbler reveals slanderous articles against Harry [and] his attempt to rescue Luna from the Death Eaters. As the Death Eaters arrive to capture the trio, Hermione’s anxieties over the Erumpent horn prove valid, and the Lovegoods’ house is blasted apart. Hermione takes control in the chaos, ensuring that the Death Eaters catch a good glimpse of the trio as they Apparate out, hoping it will be enough proof to spare Xenophilius and Luna from further harm.
So there’s actually a lot in this chapter. This chapter is pretty much… I know you guys said in the recent episodes that this is kind of the start of Act III, and I think these are really the questions that… this chapter gives us the questions to start answering in the final act of Deathly Hallows. Of course, a lot of those questions come from “The Tale of the Three Brothers,” and there’s a lot of interesting stuff packed into this tale. I wanted to kind of take it apart piece-by-piece. Probably the first thing I wanted to talk about was that “The Tale of the Three Brothers” seems to come from a long tradition of fairy tales. It’s written very much in the style of a classic fairy tale. And when asked about this during the bloomsbury.com chat after Hallows was published, Rowling was asked, “Were the Deathly Hallows based on any real-world myth or fairy tales?” And Rowling answered, “Perhaps ‘The Pardoner’s Tale’ by Chaucer.” Now listeners, at work today during my break, I went and pulled The Canterbury Tales by Chaucer off the shelf, opened it, and immediately realized that I wasn’t going to be able to read it.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Because it is written in very Ye Olde English…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: … that is very hard to translate. I didn’t… I thought first I’d check, have any of you three read The Canterbury Tales?
Alison: Yes.
[Kat makes buzzer sound]
Ryan: Absolutely… not.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Well, you got one out of three.
Michael: Alison says yes!
[Alison laughs]
Michael: I heard a yes from Alison.
Alison: English major.
Michael: Yay!
Ryan: Dope.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: So tell us, Alison, what’s “The Pardoner’s Tale”?
Alison: I haven’t read that one, though!
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Kat: Oh, no!
Ryan: Ahhh!
Alison: Terrible person. We could Google it real fast!
[Alison and Ryan laugh]
Michael: All right, so I looked up… I just briefly glanced at the… because I thought I might be able to read it, and then I was like, “No way.”
Alison: Oh, you should have looked it up on SparkNotes. They usually have today’s English next to the Olde English.
Ryan: That’s how I got through English.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: See, I couldn’t bring myself to SparkNotes it; I’ve never done that with a material. I would have…
Alison: Oh, it’s so easy.
Michael: If I had the time, I would have sat down and hardcored [it]. As I was sitting at work, I was just like, “Oooh, I can translate this.” And then after about five minutes, I was like, “Nooo, I can’t.” So…
[Kat laughs]
Michael: But…
Alison: Yeah. We always read “The Wife of Bath’s Tale.” Sorry.
Michael: But “The Pardoner’s Tale”… maybe I’ll just leave that one to the listeners because I would love to hear if the listeners… I’m sure we have some listeners who have actually read it. I didn’t want to go on and on about “The Pardoner’s Tale” not knowing anything about it. So listeners, we’ll throw that one to you.
Kat: Educate us.
Michael: Yes, please. [laughs] But the two fairy tales that I’ve actually seen a relationship to… “The Tale of the Three Brothers” actually seems to be a combination of two more well-known fairy tales: “The Three Billy Goats Gruff” and “The Three Little Pigs.”
Ryan: Definitely read those.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Can you tell us more about them, Ryan?
Ryan: Yeah. [In] “The Three Billy Goats Gruff,” [three goats] need to get across a bridge because there’s a troll and the troll won’t let them, and then they outsmart him somehow.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Ryan: I can’t… it’s been a while.
Kat: That’s my favorite clause. It’s fine.
Ryan: And then kind of the opposite way, this poor wolf is really hungry and wants some food.
[Michael laughs]
Ryan: And these pigs just don’t want to share any, and they get into a bunch of different houses of straw and sticks. This wolf is a sprinter; it’s why he’s so hungry. So he has great lung capacity to blow down the straw house and stick house, but not the brick house, and he doesn’t get fed. I think that’s how it goes.
Michael: I like your version of “The Three Little Pigs” where the wolf is the victim.
[Alison, Michael and Ryan laugh]
Michael: I like that.
Ryan: Clearly a victim.
Michael: [laughs] Well, and in the original “Three Billy Goats Gruff,” the three goats outsmart the troll by telling him that the goat behind them is going to be even bigger as they come along. But none of them get eaten; they all live happily ever after.
Ryan: Ah.
Michael: In “The Three Little Pigs,” the opposite kind of happens. Actually, the moral of “The Three Little Pigs” is a little closer to the moral of “The Tale of the Three Brothers” in that the last… Many of you listeners have probably read versions of “The Three Little Pigs” where the first two pigs just run to the last pig’s house and take cover, and they survive and the wolf gets boiled or runs away. But [in] the original version, the first two pigs don’t make it. They actually get eaten right away because they’re not very bright in the houses that they built. So this is essentially a retelling of “The Three Little Pigs.”
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Ryan: A much happier ending for the wolf.
Ryan: Yes.
Kat: Yeah. [laughs]
Michael: In that version, the wolf does get what he wants. But he does also get outsmarted in the end by the last pig. There’s actually a term for – of course, both titles reference the number three – and there’s a term called the Rule of Three, which in writing is actually the belief that three, for some reason, is a good number to teach people things whether through humor or drama. The number three is apparently the number that humans will internalize and understand a lesson from, which I thought was really interesting.
Kat: Huh.
Ryan: Isn’t it that first is just random, second is coincidence, and third becomes a trend? Something like that?
Michael: Yes, we’ll go with that.
[Kat laughs]
Michael: That sounds smart and … Alison, you’re the English major. Do you back that up?
Ryan: I’m not an English major.
Alison: [laughs] Yeah! That sounds good.
Ryan: Cool.
Michael: [laughs] Well…
Ryan: We’ll go with that.
Michael: That was interesting to me because in Hallows – well, not just Hallows [but] Harry Potter in general – the significant number is of course…
Alison and Ryan: Seven.
Michael: There we go. [laughs] So…
Kat: And twelve.
Alison: Three is a big one, though … in there, too.
Michael: Yeah. I was wondering, what are the examples of three?
Alison: The trio.
Michael: Yeah, I figured that one was obvious.
Alison: The Silver Trio.
Michael: Yes. The magical trio.
Kat: I don’t know, go to MuggleNet and look up… we have a whole page on significance in numbers.
Michael: Oh, I know that, but I was just leaving it to you.
Ryan: I wouldn’t want to take anything away from MuggleNet, so I’m just not going to [look].
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: The other fairy tale that actually came to mind – because he is so entwined with “The Tale of Three Brothers,” and I don’t know if we’ve brought it up on the show before – the myth of the firebird, which of course is the phoenix in certain parts of the world. The firebird is of Slavic origin, and it’s quite a very old fairy tale. There are many versions of the firebird, the essential meaning of the firebird being that it is symbolic of a difficult quest.
Kat: Hmm…
Michael: So I thought, well, isn’t that fitting with Dumbledore being the one to have set them this story of the Three Brothers?
Alison: Hmm…
Michael: So there’s a lot of fairy tale influence going on just in this one story alone. Listeners, if you haven’t, I must direct you to read “The Tale of the Three Brothers” from The Tales of Beedle the Bard instead of from Deathly Hallows. The stories are the same but Dumbledore actually provides commentary at the end of it. And all of the fairy tales that are mentioned by Ron, such as “Babbitty Rabbitty and her Cackling Stump,” are fully written out in The Tales of Beedle the Bard. It’s definitely worth… it’s very much meant to be read in compliment to Deathly Hallows.
Alison: They’re wonderful.
Michael: Yeah, they are fantastically written. But of course, we get a few very interesting characters in “The Tale of the Three Brothers,” and we’ll get to the Three Brothers eventually. But first I wanted to actually talk about Death, because Death actually gets personification.
Ryan: Ominous.
Michael: Yeah.
Ominous voice: Death!
Michael: Death actually finally gets personification in this series, but I was kind of thinking Death hasn’t been… This isn’t Death’s first appearance in the Harry Potter series, I would say, even in an actual embodiment. I was trying to think of other things in the series that symbolize Death and maybe suggest that. Because the trio … will debate about the truthfulness of this fairy tale, and is it really such a stretch to think that maybe some kind of version of Death walks through the earth in the Wizarding world?
Kat: Hmm…
Alison: The first thing that popped into my head was that we’ve got a lot of… well, hold on, let me think. [laughs]
Michael: What was the first thing that popped into your head?
Alison: The first thing that popped into my head was… I was trying to go through each book and see where there was some sort of death or afterlife symbolism…
Michael: Mhm.
Alison: And the first thing that popped into my head was Fluffy. Fluffy is the three-headed dog that guards Hades in Greek mythology.
Michael: Oh, that’s a good one. I didn’t even think of Fluffy. That’s a great one.
Ryan: Yeah. And incidentally enough, the first thing I thought of was Quirrell’s face disintegrating.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Oh, boy.
Michael: Because it’s just so horrifying. [laughs]
Ryan: So… no, no! But in that way, Harry kind of personifies Death.
Michae: Ooh!
Ryan: He’s the bringer of death in that way.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Hmm…
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: That’s true.
Kat: I thought about Dementors.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Michael: Yeah, Dementors are obvious…
Kat: They’re obvious comparisons to Death. A different kind of death but still a death.
Michael: I thought of the Thestrals…
Alison: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Kat: Yeah.
Michael: … from [Book] 5.
Alison: [In] Chamber of Secrets you got people being Petrified, which is close to death.
Kat: Moaning Myrtle’s dead.
Alison: Yeah. [laughs]
Michael: Ghosts. Yeah, ghosts are pretty big in [Book] 2…
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: … and [Book] 5.
Alison: And [in Book] 4, Voldemort comes back from death.
Michael: Hmm…
Alison: You’ve got the whole graveyard.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: In [Book] 6 you have all the Inferi – I can’t say that word either.
Michael: Oh, yeah.
[Alison laughs]
Kat: No, you were right.
Michael: Yeah, that’s how you say it. Yeah, that’s… oh, gosh. See? I’m so glad I posed this question, you guys, because…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: The immediate ones that came to my mind were Dementors and Thestrals, but I felt like there were more.
Alison: Yeah. I don’t know. That is interesting to think that there’s some things symbolizing Death or some sort of afterlife or underworld in all of them, kind of leading up to this embodiment of Death.
Michael: Mhm.
Kat: That doesn’t really surprise me, given the head space that Jo was in when she started writing this series.
Alison: Oh, no! But I guess I’ve just never thought about it.
Kat: Never examined it before, yeah.
Alison: Yeah.
Kat: I get that.
Michael: I guess – because that’s the thing with talking about Death actually being present within these stories – what I find interesting is that Hermione and Ron immediately think that this story is really outlandish, and even Ron, who is a wizard who has lived in the Wizarding world and seen extraordinary things, finds this tale hard to believe. And yet here we are, kind of listing off an embodiment of Death that has popped up in every book. So it’s just interesting to me that the trio, but especially Hermione and Ron, are unwilling to believe this.
Alison: Yeah. But they’re all… if you think about it, they’re all more… this Death and “The Tale of the Three Brothers” is dfferent than the kind of symbols or associations with death we’ve kind of gotten in the other ones. Does that make sense? That doesn’t make sense.
Michael: I’m interested in how this… other than really giving him a persona, what distances him from a Dementor or from a Thestral or from the veil or from any of these other things?
Alison: Yeah, I don’t know. Maybe it is just personifying Death instead of just the effects of Death or symbols of Death or giving it almost more of a physical feature and a more integral role in something. Not just something that’s there or kind of alluded [to] at some point.
Michael: Mhm.
Ryan: It’s almost kind of Muggle[-ish] of the wizards to do that because it’s very [much] like [the] Greek myths and everything. What we didn’t understand, we personified into people and the gods and everything…
Alison: Mhm.
Ryan: And death is one of the very few things that the wizards feel that they don’t understand better than any other things. So for them to actually personify it into a being is very human, I’d say.
Kat and Michael: Yeah.
Michael: That’s an interesting way to look at it, yeah. And the interesting thing about Rowling’s portrayal of Death – she actually goes with a pretty traditional portrayal of Death where she kind of subverts it – she doesn’t give him a scythe to carry around. He’s not a particularly vindictive version of Death like you normally see.
Alison: It kind of reminds me of how Death is personified in “The Book Thief,” if anyone’s read that.
Michael: I was wondering if you were going… if somebody would bring that up.
Alison: A little bit more malicious, I think, in Beedle’s than what we get. But I don’t know, I picture them the same in some way.
Michael: Mhm. But the portrayal of Death, as far as playing a game with Death, is a very classic trope – Rowling’s certainly not the first one to do that. And I know I mentioned it to you guys in our emails prior to this, and Ryan, you’ve seen the video.
Ryan: Yeah, it’s great.
Michael: Listeners, I highly recommend that you watch a video from Lindsay Ellis, who’s better known as the Nostalgia Chick – I’ve referenced her a few times on the show. She does a series now called “Loose Canon” where she actually examines the origins and history of favorite pop culture characters, and she did one on Death and Death’s appearences throughout history. And she briefly examines Death in Harry Potter. She’s not a big Harry Potter fan, so she’s a bit snarky about Harry Potter‘s version of Death. But it’s a really interesting examination of Death’s origins and why we envision Death the way we do, and it definitely ties into where Rowling got her ideas from. And definitely, the popular idea of playing a game with Death, while that’s been a very traditional thing, it actually became a pop culture idea in films. But there’s some very interesting other theories actually, not just about Death but about the Three Brothers as well. This was a recent theory actually that got popularized thanks to Tumblr. We don’t see too many theories like this that got so big after Harry Potter was done with its publication. This theory came around in November 2014, and it is credited to Harry James Potter with an “x” in the “a” [in “James”].
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Jxmes Potter. But the theory was… okay, Snape, Voldemort and Harry are the Three Brothers.
Ryan: Walk into a bar.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Yeah.
Michael: But do you realize that Dumbledore is Death? He greeted Harry at King’s Cross and was the one behind Snape and Voldemort’s deaths. And a little less than a year later – this year in August on Twitter – a Twitter user named Abbie Louis asked Rowling directly, “What’s your favorite fan theory?” And Rowling responded, “Dumbledore as Death. It’s a beautiful theory and it fits.” And in tandem with that, the theory commonly says that Snape is the brother who takes the ring, Voldemort is the brother who takes the wand, and Harry is the brother who takes the cloak.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: But a lot of other theories have popped up surrounding that. And I wanted to post to you guys: Could Dumbledore or other characters maybe stand in for any of the Three Brothers as well as Death? Or could even one character represent all four of those characters?
Alison: Well, you’ve got the trio as all three brothers even in this chapter, how they answer the question of which one do you pick. And they all pick the thing that most goes with them.
Michael: Well, isn’t that interesting, though? Because while Harry… in this popular theory associated with the cloak, Harry chooses the ring…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: … and that set-up.
Ryan: I do love Ron’s reasoning, though. It really stuck with me when Ron was like, “Yeah, of course you’d pick the wand. As long as you don’t go boasting about it.” Like it was very Ron.
Michael: Yeah.
Kat: Yeah, it was very Ron.
Alison: Yeah, it’s very Ron.
Michael: And it’s very of Hermione to be like, “I don’t think you could not boast about it.”
Alison: [laughs] Yeah.
[Michael and Ryan laugh]
Alison: And Hermione of course picks the one you should. [laughs]
Michael: Yes.
Alison: The one that ends well. [laughs]
Michael: The one that the teacher tells you to pick… because it’s right.
Ryan: Yeah.
Michael: Well, because I couldn’t really see Hermione or Ron picking the ring.
Kat: They have no reason to.
Alison: Yeah, they don’t.
Ryan: But Harry makes such a good point: “We could just summon up Dumbledore and ask him all this stuff.”
Alison: [laughs] That’s true.
Michael: And it’s interesting that Harry is so associated with the cloak after the facts… when he does choose the ring.
Kat: I’ve been trying to think about if you could swap anybody, and I don’t know if you can in that theory.
Ryan: I don’t think so either. It feels pretty, pretty foolproof.
Michael: Well, because some people… I was thinking on the way home that… because I really do like the theory of Dumbledore as Death, and I think the set-up for this theory works really well, whether it was intended by Rowling or not. But Dumbledore has actually interacted with all three Hallows at one point.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: As has Harry.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Michael: So in a way, you could swap them out as well for… Harry could be all three brothers and Dumbledore could be Death.
Kat: Mhm. Sure.
Michael: I suppose. I don’t really know if Harry ever had a point where he craved power in the way that the first brother did.
Kat: Only in his aim to defeat Voldemort really.
Michael: Mmm.
Alison: Yeah.
Kat: That’s the only kind of “power” that he’s looking for.
Michael: Well, if we’re looking at evolution of character, he’s presented with the option to have that power in Sorceror’s Stone and he denies it.
Alison: Yeah.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: Multiple times, actually. So Harry could be these three… because we see here that Harry wants the ring. I think Harry wanting the ring speaks to a lot about where his character is at this point in the story.
Alison: Definitely.
Ryan: He also eventually becomes the master of Death for a hot second there.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: For a hot second?
Ryan: Yeah.
Michael: And my, what a hot second it was.
[Michael and Ryan laugh]
Michael: That’s true. Well, and it’s interesting because in this chapter Xenophilius does present us with the whole master of Death theory. If you were to be in possession of the wand, the stone and the cloak all at the same time, that somehow makes you master of Death. Is that right?
Kat: No, it just means you have all three of them.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Ryan: Maybe they’re like Voltron and they combine together to become super shields.
Michael: Well, I was wondering that because Harry, while he is for the hot second in possession of the three…
Kat: Wait, when is he in possession of all three?
Michael: Actually, he’s not.
Alison: When’s he walking to the forest.
Kat: He’s not.
Alison: Well, he’s not in like… well, technically he is. Because the wand is technically his; he’s got the stone…
Michael: Yeah.
Kat: But he doesn’t have the wand.
Ryan: Yeah, I don’t think he ever actually has in his hands all three, but he is the master of the Elder Wand while having the stone and the cloak.
Alison: Yeah.
Ryan: That’s as close as we get, guys.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Because I was wondering that. If you did have all three of them physically in the same place, what does that do? Other than what Kat said, which is you have them. [laughs] Does it perhaps unlock some kind of knowledge or secret about death?
Alison: Not to be boring, [laughs] but I always took it as… people have taken it literally, but it’s supposed to be a little bit more symbolic, which is why Harry becomes the master of Death. He’s accepted the things that all three stand for…
Michael: Mhm. Right.
Alison: And so that’s why he has become the master of Death. He’s accepted the need and the danger of power; he’s accepted the right way to use the stone, of having them going with them; and he has accepted using the cloak to protect others and take it off at the right time. You know? [laughs] So that’s boring and not exciting. [laughs]
Kat: No, it’s not boring; I think that’s totally valid. I think a spiritual and more abstract meaning is probably what’s behind the whole master of Death. I doubt that it actually gives you some sort of crazy special knowledge. I think it’s just kind of cool.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: You can be sitting under your cloak, playing with your wand and flipping your ring. I don’t know.
[Alison laughs]
Kat: I don’t think it does anything special.
Michael: [laughs] I just didn’t know because I was thinking too in terms of… again what we were saying before about all these… the Wizarding world does have these incredible things that kind of get you very close to being able to access Death, like the veil, the Dementors, the Thestrals, things that are just so close to Death that I was wondering if those three items somehow get you… link those things in a more final way, a more complete way, to life, almost in a way that shouldn’t be done perhaps.
Ryan: To me it just feels like extra fluff or flair that the seekers of the Hallows put on it…
Michael: Mhm.
Ryan: … so they’re – completionists. You get all three. Even Xenophilius says, “Ah, the cloak is not a big deal but you need it for the set,” or something like that.
Alison: Yeah.
Ryan: Some hope that together it will create some magical Holy Grail.
Alison: Because that is Grindelwald and Dumbledore’s hope, he explains at the end, they are like, “We have to have it to have them all together and it will be like…”
Ryan: Oh, Dumbledore says it, yes.
Alison: [singing] Aaaah, opening windows, I do not know.
[Everyone laughs]:
Ryan: Who knows.
Michael: I can finally master windows.
Ryan: That is all it does. Just opens windows.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Windows in the sky like… I do not know.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Wizards do not understand computers. The Deathly Hallows can finally get you to access.
[Alison and Ryan laugh]
Alison: I can open more windows [unintelligible].
Michael: But in case you have lost track, listeners, just as a review, Antioch is the first brother who wants the wand. Cadmus is the brother who wants the stone and Ignotus is the brother who takes the cloak. And obviously, very noteworthy, the Potter line is descended from Ignotus and the Marvolo line is descended from Cadmus. So a pretty major family and, of course, the Potter and Marvolo line sneak into a lot of other families in the Wizarding world so a lot of people can trace their family history back to these three brothers. Interestingly, as I was reading, because I did take the time listeners to read the Beedle the Bard version of The Three Brothers and the Deathly Hallows version side by side as well as the UK Tales of Beedle the Bard side-by-side, just to make sure that everything was exactly the same. It was. The interesting thing about the Tales of Beedle the Bard editions though, of course, that Rowling did her own illustrations for these. This is not a task I am setting for the listeners, unless you guys have copies and can figure this out, but at the end of “The Tale of the Three Brothers” Rowling drew Ignotus’s tombstone.
Kat: Is this in the crazy special edition?
Michael: No, this is just in all the regular editions.
Alison: US or UK?
Michael: Both. Yes, at the end. She did all the illustrations for…
Kat: I will go get it. Hold on. Hold on, I am pulling mine out.
Ryan: I am pulling it out in my mind.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: I sit next to my bookshelf.
Ryan: Perfect.
Michael: It is on page 93 if you have got the hardback American Beedle the Bard edition.
Alison: Oh, I have my UK one.
Michael: Well, then I do not even know. [laughs]
Alison: Oh yes, yes. It is at the end of the tale. It is on page 93 of this one too.
Michael: Oh perfect, okay, so they were printed the same. But yes, in the picture you get a… I am assuming, again, that this is Rowling’s rendering of Ignotus’s tomb because it seems to say “Ignotus Peverell” very faded at the top. There is a picture of a coffin, the Deathly Hallows symbol, and crossed bones. I do not know if that is meant to symbolize the three brothers. And then actually, at the bottom there is writing and I cannot read it and I was very curious what that writing at the bottom might have meant? Because as we know, Rowling does nothing without purpose.
Alison: T-U, something I cannot read, C-U-S-E.
Michael: And an F. Is that an E?
Alison: I think it is an E. Maybe it is an F. And then something down there says A-N-E.
Michael: Yes, I was wondering if it might even be Latin or something?
Alison: Yes, that is what I would think.
Michael: But I cannot even suss out what it is. But listeners, and I could not find anything online about it, but it seems like it would be… Obviously, we know through the Potter series that there is an importance to inscriptions that are put on gravestone and I imagine whatever was on Ignotus’ was probably pretty important or at least had some statement about his life or his brothers. Listeners, if you can suss it out, have at it because I could not quite figure it out myself.
Alison: I wonder if you can see it better in the first edition, the one that was sold for charity, that was auctioned of? I wonder if you can read it better in that and it just copied not great.
Michael: I do not know.
Kat: No, it is not that it copied bad. It looks like there is moss or something on it so I think we are…
Alison: Oh, no no no, just maybe it is a little bit clearer.
Kat: No, I can see it clear as day. It is just I think you are not meant to read it.
Michael: Yes and of course, when Rowling presents us something we are not meant to know I want to know.
Kat: It looks like there is also an O there, so it looks like it is two lines of text.
Michael: Yes, I was wondering that too. But yes, that is another mystery for another day. Just thought I would present it here. But let us delve little bit into the Deathly Hallows themselves, the three items. Interestingly, Xenophilius refers to the hunt for the Deathly Hallows as capitalized in the text, the Quest. This seemed to be perhaps a hint drop of Rowling’s alternative title. She revealed in her Leaky Cauldron interview on the 30th of July in 2007 the two other possibilities for the title were The Elder Wand, which was used as a chapter title and The Peverell Quest, which I decided against quite quickly. I think the word Quest is a bit corny.
[Alison and Kat laugh]
Michael: So who better to tick off the word Quest to than Xenophilius Lovegood.
Ryan: Right, seriously.
Michael: [laughs] And with this Quest, and you have mentioned this earlier, Ryan. This passage in the chapter, which goes from page 411 to 412, this exchange between Xenophilius and Hermione which I am going to read here just quick because it is pretty short. Hermione says,
“‘Say the Cloak existed. What about the Stone, Mr. Lovegood? The thing you call the Resurrection Stone?’ ‘What of it?’ ‘Well, how can that be real?’ ‘Prove that it is not,’ said Xenophilius. Hermione looked outraged. ‘But that’s… I’m sorry, but that’s completely ridiculous. How can I possibly prove it doesn’t exist? Do you expect me to get hold of all the pebbles in the world and test them? I mean you could claim that anything is real if the only basis for believing in it is that nobody’s proved it doesn’t exist.’ ‘Yes, you could,’ said Xenophilius. ‘I’m glad to see that you are opening your mind a little.'”
And I like that passage because I keep hunting out these little passages that I’ve never really noticed before and I don’t know if you guys can speak to this more than I can, but these little passages about belief that are scattered through Deathly Hallows… I don’t really know what to make of them. The last one I pulled out was when Harry is talking about his belief in Dumbledore and people have also tied Harry Potter to religion and I know that Rowling took inspiration from certain religious moments and texts, but I can’t specifically speak to what those might have been, myself. But I didn’t know if you guys had further ideas of what Rowling is doing here or what these kinds of discussions of faith and belief.
Alison: Yeah, I was going to say, this one in particular makes me think of faith as a concept. That idea from scripture that faith is belief in things not seen. Don’t ask me to quote where it is from because I can’t remember.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: I’m a terrible person. It is fine. But yeah, that is what I think about that idea that some things you don’t have to prove, you just have to believe in. In this case, Xenophilius is a little crazy, but…
[Michael laughs]
Alison: … it ends up being true. It is one of those things where character development-wise I’ve always wanted Hermione a little bit… there is allusion in this that she adopted a little bit more of this potential and the potential for belief and faith in things and not having had everything in her face.
Ryan: So I know Hermione is a Gryffindor and not a Ravenclaw, but I love these passages because it shows those two different sides that you guys are always talking about the Houses, especially the Ravenclaw, the two different sorts of intelligence. There is the faith and the knowing that something is there and especially with magic in this magical world like Harry and Dumbledore are always talking about deep, deep magic isn’t explained. You guys just talked about it in the last episode with the sword. And then there’s the logical stuff, the logical Hermione-side of things and intelligence and analyzing and they’re both completely valid. It is just interesting when you get the two sides of the coin butting heads with one another.
Kat: It is interesting because obviously it is the Christmas holidays and I’ve been watching a lot of Christmas movies and we’re talking about belief and it really makes me think of the Polar Express.
Michael: Polar Express, yes. I was hoping that somebody would say that!
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Kat: Yeah, and I feel like it has a lot of the same lessons…
Michael: Yes it does.
Kat: … in belief. Believing in yourself and believing in things that you can’t necessarily see or explain.
Michael: What is the importance of that to Harry’s overall character arc in the entire series?
Kat: I think that if Harry doesn’t… how far back to do you want me to go to answer this question, Michael?
[Alison laughs]
Michael: As far as you want, honey. [laughs]
Kat: No, no, that’ll take far too long. I’m going to start going into Order of the Phoenix stuff and whatever. So I’ll just say that I think a lot of the things that Harry goes through in his life are things that he has never experienced or never really believed to be true. He has never truly believed in himself, he’s like, “‘You’re a wizard, Harry.’ ‘I’m a what?'” like there’s no way there is magic. And I think that Harry believing in himself and in his abilities and his friends and love, bravery, all of that, is essential for him to be able to do what he needs to do in the way he does it in the end. That is the very short version.
Alison: Yeah.
Ryan: Valid.
Alison: I also just found that scripture reference. And I quoted it wrong.
Michael: Really?
Alison: Yeah. “Faith is to hope for things which are not seen but which are true.” Hebrews 11:1 and Alma 32:21.
Ryan: It’s a good quote.
Kat: It should go on Harry’s grave.
Alison: Aww. I like that.
Michael: He is listening, I’m sure.
[Alison laughs]
Kat: I’m sure he is.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: Harry picked it out.
Michael: That probably really unnerved him, there. [laughs] But I think this is something to keep an eye out for as we go on with the ideas of belief. Kat, thank you for referencing the
[Alison laughs]
Kat: It is a really great movie.
Michael: So you’ll know it is good. [laughs] But getting more specifically into the three Deathly Hallows and picking them apart a little bit… so we’ve got the Elder Wand. Interestingly here we get a little tidbit that there is such a thing in the wizarding world as wand superstitions…
Alison: I love this.
[Kat laughs]
Michael: … which are brought up by Ron. He actually lists a few different superstitions that are just general wizarding ones. And, actually, Dumbledore builds on that in Tales of Beedle the Bard. On pages 100 and 101, he gives a few more wand superstitions and they are, “when his wand is oak and hair is holly, then to marry would be folly” and…
[Alison, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Michael: … and here’s a little reference to your wand wood, Ryan…
Ryan: Oh, great.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Ryan: Dumbledore.
Michael: “Rowan gossips, chestnut drones, ash is stubborn, hazel moans.” Which, according to Pottermore, Garrick Ollivander also believes there is credence to. Of course, the one that we…
Ryan: You know what?
Michael: Oh, yes?
Ryan: I always though Dumbledore was a bit of a liar and stuff. I’ve heard things.
[Alison, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Michael: And there it is.
[Michael and Ryan laugh]
Michael: There’s the rowan.
Kat: I’m sad that there is nothing about laurel wands, because that is what my wand is made of. And there is absolutely no reference whatsoever ever to them in the Harry Potter series.
Michael: I was going to say, I feel your pain. I’m silver lime, so…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: … we don’t get a lot of love in the Harry Potter series. But of course the one that’s brought up in the case of the elder is “wand of elder, never prosper.” And elder is given a summary on Pottermore by Ollivander and Ollivander says,
“The rarest wand wood of all, and reputed to be deeply unlucky, the elder wand is trickier to master than any other. It contains powerful magic, but scorns to remain with any owner who is not the superior of his or her company; it takes a remarkable wizard to keep the elder wand for any length of time. The old superstition, ‘wand of elder, never prosper,’ has its basis in this fear of the wand, but in fact, the superstition is baseless, and those foolish wandmakers who refuse to work with elder do so more because they doubt they will be able to sell their products than from fear of working with this wood. The truth is that only a highly unusual person will find their perfect match in elder, and on the rare occasion when such a pairing occurs, I take it as certain that the witch or wizard in question is marked out for a special destiny. An additional fact that I have unearthed during my long years of study is that the owners of elder wands almost always feel a powerful affinity with those chosen by rowan.”
So how fascinating that you’re on the show, Ryan. With the elder wand.
Ryan: Yeah, buddy!
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: It’s the perfect match! It’s meant to be, isn’t it?
Ryan: Well, I love the rowan wand description because it talks about how in his experience rowan wands have never gone to the Dark Arts…
Michael: Gone to the Dark Arts. Mhm.
Ryan: … and they’re very very protective and make the best wands for protective spells. So it’s super interesting that it pairs so well with elder.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Because it’s very much an opposites attract, isn’t it?
Kat: Right.
Ryan: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, and as we know now actually from Rowling post the book, the Elder wand’s core is a Thestral hair tail.
Alison: Oh good, I was just thinking about that and couldn’t remember where I’d read that.
Michael: Yes, that’s legit. [laughs]
Alison: Yeah, I was like, “Did I make that up? Or did that come from somewhere?”
Michael: That is canon. This is all of course going by the theory that Dumbledore posits, and not only in Deathly Hallows he continues to posit it Beetle the Bard in his notes, but that the three Hallows were actually made by the brothers, not by death himself. Which would seem likely in this case.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: Fun thing to do, listeners, I won’t read the whole segment… I might read it just for you guys, but you can actually track the wand. Xenophilius gives a lovely little story of all these bizarrely named wizards who took ownership of the Elder wand throughout history. If you are ever wondering the details of that story, Dumbledore does give them from pages 101 to 106 of Tales of Beetle the Bard. So Xenophilius’s story is correct, and of course we know that to be true because Dumbledore eventually has possession of the wand. The invisibility cloak is – there’s a few little interesting tidbits here about the cloak, not…
Ryan: Hey, wait. Michael, might I add that…
Michael: Yes, please.
Ryan: … if you could read… release an audiobook of you reading all those wand descriptions… I would definitely pay for that. That was so soothing.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Oh! Thank you!
Kat: You have a good Ollivander voice, apparently.
Ryan: It was top notch.
Michael: Ohh thank you! I’ll… these are the things that Rowling needs to hear. Tell it to Scholastic.
[Everyone laughs]
Ryan: Oh, that’s right.
Kat: She’s listening [unintelligible].
Michael: She is listening, of course she is. But yes, the invisiblity cloak is given quite a bit of attention actually, probably more than it’s ever been given much thought to. Of course, the trio doesn’t have much to say about it because they’re like, “Yep, it’s in our pocket right now.”
Kat: Yeah.
Michael: The only interesting additional tidbit we have about the invisibility cloak is that it does not have a Bedazzling Hex on it. That’s a new term we haven’t heard yet. A bedazzling…
Alison: It makes me just think of… bedazzling, you know? [laughs]
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Yeah.
Alison: Gluing little jewels onto things. Is that what that does? [laughs]
Ryan: Well…
Kat: I would imagine that that’s more of a reflective…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Bedazzling!
Kat: … kind of like the real world ones that scientists keep trying to make, and it’s a reflective material.
Michael: Hmm.
Ryan: I always find it really interesting because sometimes I play MMOs, online video games, and you can bedazzle your armor so that it… like if you have a piece of armor that looks really cool, but you have another one that has way better stats, you can bedazzle it – the one that looks cool – to have those stats to look like that, so that it imbues with those properties so that you can have a cool looking piece of armor even though it sucks originally.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Ryan: The Bedazzling Hex is really interesting because you can have a normal cloak and bedazzle it to imbue the properties of its surroundings, which I found interesting.
Michael: That’s a good way… that’s probably what it means in this case because actually the definition of the word “bedazzle” is not necessarily…
[Alison laughs]
Michael: … to place a bunch of rhinestones on your flip phone. Bedazzled means either to greatly impress with brilliance or skill, and it can actually also mean to cleverly outwit.
Ryan: Ah.
Michael: It does actually mean… it does definitely carry that idea of relating to the invisibility cloak. We get the information, though… this is kind of the confirmation that Harry’s invisibility cloak is very, very special because the word infallible comes up a lot. Basically that the cloak just doesn’t ever fail, essentially is what that word means. No matter what it’s put up against and no matter how many years have gone by…
Ryan: Which I find super interesting that later in the book some of the Death Eaters try to summon the cloak and it doesn’t summon to them.
Kat: Yeah.
Ryan: And I tried to think back if there were any other cases of Harry trying to summon the cloak because it seems like he’s losing it all the time…
Alison: Oh, yeah.
… and he never does that either which is just super interesting that it is kind of hex proof in that way. But maybe not to cats, I’m not sure.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Yeah, that’s… I actually think Rowling confirmed that she… that Mrs. Norris can’t see Harry under the cloak but she just has that…
Kat: Smelled him, right?
Michael: Hmm?
Alison: What?
Kat: She smelled him.
Michael: Yeah. In the case of Goblet of Fire, yeah. He’s got bubble bath on him.
Ryan: Yeah. It’s not a in-smellability cloak.
[Everyone laughs]
Ryan: Which may be useless, I don’t know.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Cloack thick guard scent. But and then, of course, the final Hallow, the Resurrection Stone, probably one of the most interesting of the three… now the resurrection stone throughout this chapter, and again – Dumbledore ties it to this in Tales of Beedle the Bard in his notes – there’s a constant callback to Sorcerer’s Stone – or Philospher’s Stone, depending on where you are. It’s frequently tied to that which is interesting because the characters say, “Well that’s where Beedle got his inspiration from.” But of course we know now that the stone actually does exist in the world of Harry Potter. But why the callback to Sorcerer’s Stone so much here? Why?
Alison: Is this the circle theory chapter? Does this connect with the first time they hear about it or…?
Kat: I don’t know, let me look. Chapter 21.
Ryan: While you’re looking, I have a thought.
Michael: Oh, please.
Ryan: Yeah, I think that it’s really interesting that in the Wizarding World there’s so much emphasis on inbuing stuff into stones and rocks and the elements in that way, and though we don’t ever find out what kind of rock the Resurrection Stone is… they mention in the story that it’s a pebble from the river or whatever. I’d always thought, I wonder if it was a… oh man, I’m not a geologist so I’m going to butcher this, but an igneous rock or a metamorphic rock or something. If there’s some science there in magic of what kind of materials is it best to imbue something in, because there’s always talk about magic. About silver, like the silver knives in potions…
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Ryan: … and stuff. So when they’re talking about if the Peverells were these extraordinary wizards, maybe there’s a certain elements in the Earth or things. Maybe it’s natural elements or combined things that hold magical properties and can do way better things. Just like in Potions you can take I don’t know, a bug leg, a leaf stem and this junk and make something that turns your ears into elephant ears.
Michael: Mhm.
Ryan: I don’t know.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: No, that’s valid because Rowling revealed on Pottermore that she very carefully chose the ingredients for all the potions that come up because…
Ryan: Right, right.
Michael: … of symbolism and I think what you’re talking about is already an idea in alchemy. That the elements in the stone would be important to imbuing it with magic. And I have a feeling, based on what you’re suggesting, that Rowling probably does know what kind of stone or gem the Resurrection Stone is made out of.
Alison: Oh, definitely.
Kat: I’m sure she does.
Ryan: Oh, almost definitely. So I was just… I have a note here on the desk. I was wondering, obviously I don’t know anything about rocks, but maybe some of the listeners or you guys could make a thought about what kind of rock the Resurrection Stone is made from. If it even is anything that us Muggles or No-Maj, whatever, know about.
Kat: Muggle.
Michael: All of you trying to convert to the American way, good for you.
Ryan: Oh, I don’t know, man. There’s a lot of conflict about it.
[Michael laughs]
Ryan: There’s a lot of conflict about it. I don’t know.
Kat: Also, for the record, there’s only 17 chapters in the first book. So no.
Alison: Okay. Interesting.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: It’s probably circle theory, but not by chapter.
Michael: Yeah, it’s circle theory in terms of the first book and the seventh book connecting.
Kat: Right. Although it might be circle theory within the books, so… hold on.
Alison: Well, while you’re looking up that, I just Googled really fast black gemstones symbolism and the one that’s coming up a lot is onyx…
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: … and it says, “It’s known to separate, can help release negative emotions such as sorrow and grief…”
Ryan: Oh.
Alison: “… enhances steadfastness and determination, setting one’s mind to a task.” This is just popping up on Google.
Michael: I think we’re going to… until Rowling says otherwise, let’s… in our head canons, the Resurrection Stone is onyx.
Ryan: Head canon confirmed.
Kat: You know what’s great is that I wear an onyx ring every single day. My grandmother gave it to me.
Michael: Oh my God, you’re wearing the Resurrection Stone right now.
Ryan: The Resurrection Stone, right now.
Kat: Yep.
Ryan: You should resurrect your… you should resurrect Dumbledore and ask him.
Kat: I thought you were going to say my grandmother.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Ryan: No, no, no. Dumbledore. Not your grandmother. That’d be so scary.
Michael: That’s insensitive. [laughs]
Ryan: No, no. Resurrect Dumbledore.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Alison: Well, because the movies make it look like a gemstone more than just…
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: … a rock.
Ryan: Right. I always pictured it to be just a pebble, but the movies made it far more elegant than my mind.
Alison: Well, because it’s set into a ring so I always imagined it shinier.
Michael: Well, and in the movie, because I don’t remember, I don’t think this is the way it is in the book, but in the movie, it has the Hallows symbol in the gem.
Alison: It has it in the book, too…
Kat: Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, it’s cut.
Alison: … because Harry sees it. It’s scratched on there.
Michael: Oh, it’s scratched on. So it’s probably…
Kat: Yeah, but the Gaunts didn’t know what it was.
Alison: Yeah, they think it’s the coat of arms or whatever.
Michael: That’s right.
Ryan: Classic Gaunts. Classic.
Michael: Cracks down the middle.
Kat: Yeah. And by the way, the circle theory chapter within the book would be “Godric’s Hollow.”
Alison, Michael, and Ryan: Oh.
Alison: Peveralls. Yeah.
Michael: Oh, that. Yeah.
Ryan: Right. Yeah.
Michael: Yeah. I always find it fascinating when she, especially so late in the series, links back to Sorcerer’s Stone, because Sorcerer’s Stone is just so totally different from Hallows. It’s a reminder of how far we’ve come.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: … in the series, in the books. It seems so distant when you’re reading Hallows to think about Sorcerer’s Stone.
Ryan: I love it when they just mention that Quirrell died, because it’s still, he died in the book?
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Ryan: Yeah, that happened.
Michael: He died. He died horribly.
Kat: Would you guys all pick the cloak?
Michael: Oh, I…
Ryan: No. No, totally not.
Kat: What would you pick?
Ryan: I’m all about Ron’s theory with the wand. I’m not going to boast about it. You just have it and if you need it, you got it.
Michael: You’re not going to tell your mom and dad you got this awesome wand?
Ryan: No, no, no. That’d be boasting. It would be too dangerous.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: They might kill you for it.
Ryan: I know, right? It’s too dangerous.
[Michael and Ryan laugh]
Ryan: It’s just so practical. Honestly, I don’t really need to be invisible and I don’t really need to talk to the dead that are going to make me dead, so keep the wand that will keep me safe and my family safe. I’ll go with that.
Michael: What would you choose, Kat?
Kat: I would choose the ring. Because there are definitely people in my life that I’d like to talk to again.
Michael: Mhm. Alison, what would you choose?
Alison: I think I’d go with the cloak, actually. I don’t know. Just, I feel like you could do anything with anyone. I don’t know. The cloak just seems the most useful and just, it’s an invisibility cloak. It’s awesome.
Kat: Where are you going to sneak in with that?
Alison: I don’t know. [laughs] Everywhere?
Michael: [laughs] She doesn’t have to tell us.
Alison: Yes, I have a list.
Kat: She is like, “I’m going to go see Star Wars again.”
[Michael laughs]
Alison: Yes. Actually, I will.
Ryan: I will say, however, that I could use the cloak without even being a wizard.
Alison: That is true.
Ryan: There is an advantage there. If the Elder Wand let me use magic even though I’m not a wizard, then that is some added, because it is so good.
Alison: Yeah.
Kat: Wait, how do you know that you need to be magical to use the stone?
Ryan: Oh, I don’t know. Maybe you don’t. Who knows?
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Hmm. That is true.
Ryan: Oh, man. Now I don’t want… can I change my answer?
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: No, because we have it perfectly, all three of us.
Michael: You took the wand and you died! [laughs]
Kat: Yeah, see, I wouldn’t make the same mistake as, who was it, Cadmus? Yeah, I wouldn’t make the same mistake and be like, “Come back and live with me forever and ever!” I would just want to be able to speak to them.
Ryan: Yeah, come just have tea with me for the afternoon!
Michael: Yeah, then you can go. No, Kat, oddly your humorous suggestion of going to see Star Wars extra times… honestly, the idea to me of being able to go see movies for free…
Alison: Yeah, it’d be pretty sweet.
Kat: It’d be amazing, right?
Michael: Yeah, you just spoke to my cinematic arts heart. I’m like, “Sweet, I can go see all the movies before Oscar season!” [laughs] For that reason alone, I’ll take the cloak, I think. To go see movies.
Ryan: That is not as noble as how the cloak was intended to be used.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Nobody said it is not going to work if it is not noble.
Kat: How do you know Harry doesn’t do that? Okay?
[Everyone laughs]
Ryan: Man, there aren’t even movies at Hogwarts. I’m so disappointed.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: No, but in real life, now. He still has the cloak.
Alison: Going around Surrey, running into movie theaters.
Kat: Oh my God, I just thought of this. What if the cloak comes into the plot of Cursed Child?
Alison: [gasps] I hope it does. It has got to.
Ryan: Oh.
Michael: I assumed it would, because that is part of this tradition, is that the father hands it down to his son.
Kat: Usually before he dies.
Michael: Yeah. Ostensibly, too, the cloak has been handed down from mothers to daughters too, because that would account for the surname changing a few times. But the tradition from the story, of course, is that we’ve got the father-son thing going on. So yeah, that would probably be an element. I wouldn’t be surprised.
Alison: I’ll let you all know in June.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: I’m sure we’ll know before that.
Ryan: Please do. For real.
Michael: So. I also did, because I’ve mentioned it a few times in discussion, but. The Veil, it is interesting because the Veil actually comes up in the dialog of the Three Brothers’ Tale, and that Cadmus’s dead wife who comes back with the Resurrection Stone is said to be separated from him “as if by a veil.”
Ryan: That definitely doesn’t feel like a mistake. [laughs] Or a coincidence.
Michael: No. It is very well-chosen wording on Rowling’s part, to have the Veil coming up again, I think that is important to note. The Veil is not gone. We may not see it again in the Ministry. But I had also pondered, if there were hints in this story to how the actual Veil was made.
Kat: Oh.
Ryan: Well, I had read a theory once – and this could maybe be totally made up, I don’t know – that the stone itself, because the Ministry was built around, potentially, that archway where the Veil is, I think I read, or heard? I could be wrong.
Michael: Mhm. People have said that.
Ryan: And that the Resurrection Stone is a piece of that that got chipped off and imbued, of that archway.
Alison: Oh! Interesting.
Kat: That is cool.
Ryan: I don’t know where I read that, but maybe the Peverells… I don’t know how it lines up with how old the Ministry is and how old the Peverells are, but maybe one of them worked at where the Ministry is.
Kat: I don’t think the Ministry is nearly that old.
Alison: Yeah.
Ryan: Yeah, I don’t think so either, but maybe they found in their questing the archway with the Veil and, I don’t know, chipped off a piece and examined it. That is just a thought, if that is the worldly separator of the afterlife and whatnot, if the stone is just a piece of that Veil thing.
Michael: Looks like the Peverells lived around the 1200s, so they were… Ignotus’s dates are 1214-1291, but that could possibly be from the gravestone in the film. I don’t know if that is canon.
Kat: Let’s see if it says in the book. There are no dates on it in the book?
Michael: No, I don’t think so. See, that source comes from the movie. I imagine based on the version of the tale and the way it is told, the Peverells did come from medieval times.
Ryan: That is how I imagine it.
Michael: 1200 seems right. 1100s to 1200s. Because I think Beedle came from the 1500s, so he is already quite a bit separated from their story. He is not writing down a firsthand account, probably. But yeah, that is… if the archway existed, it would have definitely existed far be Ryan: And who knows if that even happened? It is just something of a head canon as to where it might have come from. Michael: No, I think it is an interesting theory. Alison: Yeah, I like it. Michael: Just because the Veil is brought up here in the dialog, and seems to be that the Veil is very intrinsically tied to these three items somehow. Because it is, I’d say, out of the different examples of death that we mentioned, I’d say the Veil is a literal gateway to death. So I’d say it is the one that is the closest that wizards seem to have gotten to making a gateway to death. Of course, it is a one-way trip, so… Ryan: Still got some kinks to work out, there. Michael: Yeah, you have got to take your tools with you to the other side. Hope your wrench goes with you through death. [Ryan laughs] Kat: God is a carpenter, it is fine. He has all the tools. [Alison and Michael laugh] Ryan: All of them. Michael: Now, there is a lot of magical creatures that are brought up here, not least of which is the Erumpent. So I did a little digging through Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them to get a few more details on some of these creatures that are mentioned. The Erumpent, actually, does not get its first mention in Fantastic Beasts. It’s very first mention in Harry Potter canon was actually on a wizard card in the Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone game. It is either Sorcerer’s Stone or Chamber of Secrets. Ryan: Yes! Love that game. Michael: Yeah. It is mentioned because a wizard named Wilfred Elphick, who lived from 1112 – not 1112 to 1119 – yeah, 1112 to 1119. No, those dates have to be wrong. But he was the first wizard to have ever been gored by an Erumpent… Kat: Eww. Michael: … which is horrible. Not just because it’s basically being gored by a rhinoceros, but then you explode! Kat: Yeah, that’s something to be known for. Michael: Yeah, yeah. Now, the Wizard Card… it’s not really confirmed whether he died or not. I would have thought he did, but on the Wizard Card he’s depicted as being all bandaged up. So kudos to you, Wilfred Elphick, for surviving that if you did. Kat: Maybe they evolved into animals that blow up. Or maybe it’s only once the Erumpent [horn] is cut off and dried that it blows up. Michael: That it blows up, yeah… Ryan: Maybe it was a Hagrid-type thing, where Hagrid – or not Hagrid, obviously – but a wizard bred a rhino with a fire crab or something and created a magical creature. I don’t know. Michael: Well, actually, as far as the exploding goes… oh, and I’m sorry; the dates were 1112-1199. That makes a little more sense, there we go. But the Erumpent’s Ministry of Magic classification is quadruple X, which means dangerous, or requires specialist knowledge, or skilled wizards may handle. They look like a rhinoceros, except their horns contain explosive fluid, and they’re of a very low population because the males blow each other up during mating season. [laughs] And they only have one calf at a time. The horn, tail, and explosive fluid are classified as Class B Tradable Materials. So they’re dangerous and subject to strict control but they are not untradable, so Xenophilius wasn’t necessarily doing anything illegal. He probably should have reported it to the Ministry but of course he didn’t think that it was an Erumpent horn. So yeah, Erumpents actually have been around for a while; they don’t just pop up in this last book. They’ve been in the canon for a while. The other… Ryan: Their name also sounds like trumpet, and I don’t know… they blow up and it’s like a loud trumpet. Alison: [laughs] Yeah. Michael: Yeah, the word “erumpent” actually means “bursting forth, or through a surface.” So that one’s actually not a made up word. The other creatures that are mentioned – or the one that’s integral to the Hallows – is a Demiguise, which… the word “Demiguise” actually combines to mean “partially concealed.” Their Ministry of Magic classification is also quadruple X, but mostly because they require specialist knowledge and a skilled wizard can handle them, not because they’re dangerous. They are an ape-like creature from the Far East. They are peaceful and herbivorous, and the reason they’re mentioned in this section is because they are a creature that is used to make invisibility cloaks. Not Harry’s, but they are used to make invisibility cloaks. And they are actually the wizarding world’s rune symbol for zero because they can be invisible. Ryan: Ah. Michael: So that is mentioned on Pottermore in Ancient Runes Made Easy. And then of course, the one that gets constant mention, the Gulping Plimpies. [Everyone laughs] Alison: That word is just fun. Michael: The gulping seems to have been added on by Xeno and Luna, and “plimpy” is actually just a term for being fat. It’s British slang. And its Ministry of Magic classification is triple X, which means competent wizards should cope. It’s a legged fish. It just walks around and nibbles on your ankles, and it is considered a pest by merpeople, and, apparently to Xeno and Luna, a delicacy to eat. Ryan: I don’t like this idea at all. [Everyone laughs] Ryan: I’m not really a big… I don’t know. Walking in the creek and having one of these things just nibble on my… no. No, thanks. Michael: [laughs] Well, there’s an easy way to deal with that, as the merpeople know. All you have to do is take their two legs, tie them in a knot, and then just throw them out, far away, and they’ll take hours to get untied. Ryan: I guess we know what the Weasley twins do when they’re on vacation camping. [Alison and Michael laugh] Ryan: Instead of the gnomes, they just have Plimpy tosses. Michael: [laughs] And you can see a picture of the Plimpies, listeners, if you open up your copy of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. Who knows, some of those beasts might turn up in the movie. Quite a few of them have been mentioned before, but they get their shining moment in the series here. So let’s move on from the Hallows and the creatures to Xenophilius and Luna because they also play an integral role in this chapter. Now, we’ve talked about Xenophilius extensively, and we’ll have a big moment of his to discuss. But first, let’s go to probably one of the most memorable moments of this chapter: Harry popping into Luna’s room. Kat and Alison: Aww. Michael: Yeah, I knew that… Ryan: And aww. Alison: Yeah. Michael: The essential reaction to that. Ryan: It’s an emotional roller coaster, these next couple of pages. Michael: [laughs] So of course, we look up to the ceiling and we see a gorgeous, very lifelike mural that Luna has painted of all of her friends. And we know that they’re her friends because she had connected them with a chain of the word “friends” written in minuscule writing to connect them all. Alison: This makes me just want to cry and melt and hug Luna, all at the same time. Kat: She’s such a sweetheart. Alison: It’s just so beautiful. Michael: Now, my question here… because I mean, I have my own answer, but I wanted to explore this with you guys a little more. We already love Luna, I think a lot, in the series by this point, wouldn’t you say? Ryan: Nope, hate her. [Everyone laughs] Ryan: Just kidding. Michael: All right, fair enough! But I think by this point in the series, Luna had already made her mark. So what does this mural do for her character at this point in the story? What does this contribute to her characterization? Ryan: I think that it doesn’t say as much about Luna as it does a lot of the other characters she’s friends with, in that these were the first people that accepted her and were really her friends – obviously, her friends – and how much these people mean to her. She lost her mom and all she has is her crazy, wacky dad. It’s great that she actually found people a little later in her school career, too, that really accept her and like her. Which, I mean, it’s nice. It’s heartwarming. Alison: I think it just shows how pure Luna is in her intentions, in the way she cares about people, [and] in who she is as a person. She’s painted these people, I mean, so lifelike that Harry says he feels like they breathe. And then to have just encircled them all in this idea of “friends” is just… I don’t know. It’s so pure and honest and… I don’t know. It’s gorgeous. I love it. Ryan: I love the quote about it, too. I’m not an Audiobook reader like you are, Mike… [Michael laughs] Ryan: … but they say, “They were not moving as the portraits at Hogwarts moved, but there was a certain magic about them all the same. Harry thought they breathed.” It’s so interesting that maybe there’s… even if you’re not… it might have been even one of those doing magic without intending to do magic. She was feeling so passionate when she did the painting she left a piece of magic in them. Michael: Hmm. I like that. Alison: Yeah. Kat: Huh. Michael: Yeah, I did find that striking in knowing that – especially in what we know now from Pottermore – more extensive stuff about paintings and how you can essentially bring a painting to life, and Luna doesn’t need magic to do that. She does it just with her natural talent. Kat: I was thinking, too: I was thinking about myself… and I didn’t mean for that to come out as self-centered. [Everyone laughs] Michael: As you always do. Ryan: Really? Yeah, okay, Kat. Kat: I was thinking about how I hang photos of my friends all over the place, and that is how I honor our friendship and I remember and all of that. And I feel like this is… I had a really eloquent thought. Michael: Luna would have an awesome Facebook if she had one. Alison: Aww. Ryan: Or Tumblr. Alison: Or Instagram. She’d have a really nice Instagram. Kat and Michael: Yeah. Ryan: She would. Kat: I feel like this is the way that she honors the people in her life that she truly, truly loves and wants to remember and think about and honor. Michael: Mhm. Kat: I also see them as reminders because there are some pictures that I have up in my house that I look at them and I remember something that that person has taught me or that I have experienced because of that person. Michael: Hmm. Kat: And I feel like that might be something that Luna might think about as well. She might look at them and think about, “Okay, well, this is Hermione. I need to remember or think about the way that she thinks of things when I’m thinking about something that might be a little bit crazy.” Or, “This is Ron; he’s loyal and passionate, and I want to be more like that.” Who knows? Ryan: That’s a good point, yeah. Alison: Also, it feels like her way of taking them home with her when… it sounds like she and her dad are just by themselves out on this moor, almost. It might be a little bit lonely, so to have that idea of, “Yes, look, I have friends and they’re still here when I’m not at school.” Kat: Yeah. Mhm. Ryan: Oh, I bet she talks to them. Alison: Aww. Ryan: And I don’t mean that in a crazy way; I just meant I totally bet she’s doing stuff and she’s like, “Oh, Ron, that’s not very nice to say to Hermione.” I don’t know. Michael: Ohh, stop. [Alison and Michael laugh] Michael: See, I was just thinking that it’s sad in with what you were saying, Alison, about how it’s like she’s taking them home with her because… this gets into a whole thing about how I think Harry views his friends outside of Ron and Hermione. Ryan: Oh, yeah. I think… Michael: And I think… oh, go ahead. Go ahead, Ryan. Ryan: Sorry. No, no. I just think that… I love that you say that because I think one of the reasons that Harry names part of his child after Luna is this is a really powerful moment for Harry because I think he feels a super deep connection to Luna in that way that you just mentioned, that Harry is so glad he found friends, just like Luna is. Alison: Yeah. Michael: Mhm. Kat: Well, and Luna is the person whose experiences are the closest to Harry’s… Alison and Michael: Yeah. Kat: … having lost parents and going through that crisis at a young age, so I feel like he doesn’t quite understand ever, perhaps, why he feels the way he feels about her besides the obvious, “She’s kooky.” She makes him feel good about himself, or feel assured about himself. I’m not sure Harry ever really quite understands what it is just about Luna that he gets. Michael: Yeah, I think that… well, because there’s an interesting evolution in Harry’s view of… I think this not only speaks to Luna; I think this also speaks to Harry’s view of Neville, who is the other character that Harry kind of goes through an evolution with. Alison and Ryan: Yeah. Michael: And it’s so funny, too; you guys are saying how Harry doesn’t perhaps initially realize just how much Luna’s own story mirrors his because I think perhaps in a way, that’s why Harry feels such remorse for the way he initially treats Luna because Harry doesn’t initially treat her necessarily kindly or with much regard. Kat: I was going to say, he’s not rude to her or anything, but he is definitely kind of ambivalent. Michael and Ryan: Yeah. Alison: He kind of ignores her for a while. Kat: Yeah. Michael: Mhm. Yeah, and just the way… Harry has definitely got… I think there’s a sense that Harry’s closest friends are Ron and Hermione, and I think there’s always an odd thing for the trio when there’s somebody else who inches into their little group. Kat: Mhm. Ryan: Like the A-tier and the B-tier of friends. Michael: [laughs] Yes. [Alison laughs] Michael: Yes, I think that’s definitely the case. And so I think… I like the mural moment just because there’s just this constant evolution and examination of these side characters that… Kat: Well, just to point [out] something that you said, I do think that Ron and Hermione are “his closest friends” but I think Luna is the person who understands him more than anybody. Michael: Hmm. Mhm. Alison: Yeah, I can see that. Ryan: Oh, I definitely think so. She can see right into Harry’s soul. Kat and Michael: Yeah. Michael: I wish I could shout out to the artist, but I can’t remember her name and I’m a little too far away to grab the beautiful drawing that she did, or watercolor that she did. But there was an artist at LeakyCon a few years ago who did a gorgeous watercolor painting of Luna’s painting, and I actually bought it. Alison and Ryan: Ooh. Alison: I’d like to see that. Michael: And it looks how I would picture it, which is why I bought it because it just looked so on point. As we’re talking, I might sneak away just to see what her name was so I can give her a shout-out. [Kat laughs] Michael: But I think, too… we talk frequently as well about things that we really wish had been in the movies. I think this should have been in the movie. [laughs] Alison: Yeah. Ryan: Oh, absolutely. Alison: It would have been what a beautiful moment. Michael: Yeah. I love… and it’s such a fine… this detail really seals it, but the fact that she went to the trouble to paint the word “friends” in minuscule writing over and over again as a chain… that’s just a beautiful image right there. Alison: Yeah. Michael: Actually, in my head, even though I don’t think the writing says it, it links… to me, it makes me think of the magical gold writing on the ceiling in the Ministry. Kat: Oh. Alison and Kat: Yeah, yeah. Michael: So in my head, I actually picture the writing moving. I know it doesn’t, but… Kat: That’d be fun, though. Ryan: And in the same way that it’s personal for Harry to physically dig Dobby’s grave – sorry to bring that up – I feel like Luna definitely hand painted this and didn’t use a wand or anything. Alison: Oh, yeah. Michael: Yes. Ryan: That’s just my thought, that she did it all. It was very personal and tactile for her. Michael: See, okay, another weird link that I can… I don’t know how valid it is because, of course, the film I’m thinking of came out afterward, but there’s still imagery that fits it; not necessarily the painting, even though that ties in after the fact. I’m thinking of Tangled and Rapunzel… Alison and Ryan: Yeah. Michael: … because of course, the element that Disney added is that Rapunzel paints to pass the time away. Ryan: Mhm. Michael: But the idea of being at the top of a high tower, isolated from the world, your long blonde hair… [Alison and Michael laugh] Michael: I wonder if there’s something to that as well. I’m not really sure. Ryan: Clearly Rapunzel is Luna Lovegood, so I’m going to head canon that. [Everyone laughs] Michael: Okay, it’s canon. And Ryan, you had a point, actually, about [laughs] Harry’s detective skills. Ryan: Yeah, so a lot of people talk about how Harry is goes through Auror training without going through Auror training all throughout Deathly Hallows; without going through the official Ministry methods. And you see him here use his deductive skills, noticing that there’s dust on the blue carpet and the cabinet is kind of ajar, and the bed is un-slept in and there’s cobwebs everywhere and he notices this while he’s looking around the room. And so Harry doesn’t have that raw intelligence that Hermione has. He’s not very booky, as we know, and he’s kind of mediocre in that way. But his instincts are so great in evaluating the environment for danger and just picking out these little things that normally Ron might not notice, and figuring out and putting two and two together. And as the books progress, he gets better and better at this and I think this was, by Rowling, this little thing to show how adept he’s gotten at this throughout all these books, really good at identifying this stuff. Alison: Harry Holmes. Ryan: Harry Holmes! [Everyone laughs] Kat: Nice. Michael: “Elementary, dear Weasley.” [Alison laughs] Ryan: “As you can see, the dust has settled; it has not been cleaned for two weeks.” [Michael laughs] Alison: That’s true, though. I think we’ve talked about that near the beginning of Half-Blood… Michael: Yeah. Alison: … that Harry, all of a sudden, is just opening his eyes and noticing things and finally looking around him. And so it’s interesting that it… I think you point out that he’s gotten really good at evaluating for danger specifically. Ryan: Yeah, once he got his raw angst out of the way he was able to use the rest of his senses. [Alison laughs] Michael: Except when he says Voldemort’s name because he just has to say it. Ryan: Ah, that dummy. [Everyone laughs] Michael: But what’s really interesting is that… tying it back to what we were discussing about the Hallows and belief because, I think, that’s what’s really special about Harry in his ability to be observational is that he also… unlike Hermione, who is also… I think Hermione also does have a gift of observation, maybe in a different way than Harry, but she sees things that Harry doesn’t notice often as well. But unlike Harry, Hermione doesn’t tend to have the gift, as we were talking before, of faith in the unseen. And perhaps that’s where that comes in; is that Harry’s observational gifts are linked with his gift to be able to believe what he can’t see sometimes. Because that will of course become very important in terms of Harry and Hermione clashing over the Hallows and whether they do indeed exist or not. So now that we’ve discussed Luna at length, we will touch on one point about Xenophilius, which you guys kind of touched on last week, but it’s given a line of narration here that gives it focus. It’s page 419 of the American edition of Deathly Hallows and it says, “Xenophilius spread his arms in front of the staircase, and Harry had a sudden vision of his mother doing the same thing in front of his crib.” Alison: Oh! Ryan: Ooh. Kat: I almost clapped when I read it this time because I was like, “Yes!” I just totally forgot about this moment. [Michael laughs] Kat: Not because I’m like, “Yay, Xeno is keeping them there so they can die…” [Everyone laughs] Kat: … but just because I’m so happy to see another example of somebody almost… obviously, it’s different than Lily, but sacrificing himself in a different way but still. Michael: Yeah. Ryan: Harry is Voldemort in this situation. Alison: Yeah. It’s such an important theme throughout especially this book… Ryan: Yeah. Alison: … but I mean, the whole series of what parents will do to protect their children. Kat: Yep. Alison: And it’s just… it keeps popping up, I think, especially in this book, but we just get these adults and these parents that will just throw themselves at whatever danger in order to protect their kids because that’s who they care about the most. Kat: I half remember thinking that somebody was going to blast him out of the way and just be like, “Boom! Get out of the way and leave.” Michael: “Silly old man.” Kat: Yeah. Michael: They’ve done it before. [laughs] Alison: Yeah. Michael: Wouldn’t be the first time. Kat: Nope. Ryan: I think it definitely says a lot about Xenophilius’s character, though, that after everything we’ve said about him – like crazy, kooky, whatever he is – at his very core, he really loves Luna. He loves his daughter and will do anything for her. And if we’re talking about… I know we talk about characters that have the most love in the books. To me, he’s up there in how much he cares… Alison: Oh, yeah. Ryan: … and the love he’s showing. Because if he’s willing to get the only hope the entire wizarding world has for peace captured and killed just for his daughter, that’s some… oh, man. That’s some strong stuff. Michael: And that is not for the Greater Good. [Alison and Michael laugh] Ryan: No, no. Selfish. Michael: Dumbledore does not agree. [laughs] Kat: But the thing is, if Luna were home and Xeno was acting like this – I know he probably wouldn’t be – but Luna would be mortified, I think. Ryan: Oh, definitely. Alison: Oh, yeah. Michael: I almost wonder if this line isn’t kind of the confirmation that when Luna hears this story, Harry will… this is how Harry will explain it to her to make her feel better about what happened. Ryan: Definitely. Kat: I’ve always wondered about how Luna finds out about what happens in this moment. Michael: Yeah, I know you asked that last week, and I’ve read fanfiction where the trio talked to her about it… Ryan: Maybe they just don’t. Harry does have a tendency to leave facts out to protect the feelings of other people. Maybe Xenophilius never does and they’re like, “Yeah, Death Eaters were here and blew up part of the house.” It could be something they just hide to spare her feelings. Kat: I don’t know, I feel like Luna would suss out the truth. Ryan: Oh, she knows. Alison: Oh, definitely. Ryan: Yeah. Michael: She wouldn’t have to. They’d be sitting around having coffee someday in the future and Ron would be like, “God! Remember that time Xenophilius was a total arse?” [Everyone laughs] Michael: And Luna would just go, “What?!” [laughs] And that would lead to that conversation. Alison: Whoops! [laughs] Ryan: Then Hermione would slap Ron across the back of the head. [Michael laughs] Ryan: Or try to kick Ron and accidentally kick Harry and just all this stuff. Michael: [laughs] It would all go wrong. But I like what you said, Kat, about cheering for this moment and seeing another example. Because I brought this up and we discussed this a little bit back around Prisoner and Goblet and James’s death, and how his death was like he didn’t really have a chance to sacrifice himself so he just ran in front of Voldemort without a wand and died. Ryan: Dummy. [Alison and Michael laugh] Michael: And his sacrifice often, even narratively to some degree, is kind of discounted in favor of Lily’s. And it’s interesting seeing this moment coming from a father figure in the Harry Potter series, this moment of doing anything for your child and taking a gigantic risk for your child, and then equating it to Lily’s sacrifice. Like you said, Kat, we don’t see that a lot. Kat: No. Michael: So I feel like there’s a lot of other sacrifices that could be equated to Lily’s in the series and they just aren’t. Xenophilius isn’t necessarily the first person to do this. And also again, it speaks to how maybe we should be viewing Xenophilius. And Harry’s not the only one to notice this, because as we go into the escape… Ryan: Unfortunately it goes real from “Yeah, Xenophilius!” to “Oh, wait, no, no, no! Get out!” [Michael laughs] Alison: Yeah. Michael: Yep. Because now it’s time to leave but they can’t, because Xenophilius has already sent a letter to the Ministry. And two Death Eaters have been sent to pick up the trio, and that would be Travers and Selwyn – interesting names and interesting characters actually. They seem off to the side, but they’re actually somewhat relevant to the story. Travers actually has previously been mentioned to have murdered Order member Marlene McKinnon and her family during the First Wizarding War, so there is a legit murderer in the house right now. He is the one who chased Kingsley and Hermione during the Battle of the Seven Potters… Kat: Hmm… Michael: And he will also come up again at Gringotts. He will be the Death Eater who gets Imperiused by Harry. Ryan: Oh, boy! Michael: So he’s got a lot in store for him. Selwyn was also in the Battle of the Seven Potters. He followed Harry and Hagrid, and he was actually the Death Eater who had to give his wand over to Voldemort when Lucius’s wand broke. So who knows? He might be using a new wand from Ollivander by this point. And interestingly, Selwyn is the family surname that Umbridge tried to claim she was from… Kat: Huh. Ryan: Well, at least we know he’s pureblood. Michael: Yeah. Ryan: Because that’s how Umbridge was boasting about. Alison: Yeah. Michael: I just thought it was funny that she was trying to lay claim to a family that’s still alive. Because members working in the Ministry would probably be like, “No, never met you before or seen you on the family tree.” [Alison and Michael laugh] Alison: I think it’s interesting that this seems to happen a lot, Death Eaters pop[ping] up that we’ve heard of before. [laughs] And so it feels like the Death Eater circle is just so small. Even at this point where he’s got a lot of people working for him, it’s still so tiny. Or I wonder if it’s just… JKR was like, “Here’s my list of Death Eater names; let’s pick a couple.” Or [is] it these purposeful ones that he’s sending out just [in] this small inner circle to do some of these more important things? Ryan: It always makes it feel more dangerous that the Death Eaters themselves are the elite out of Voldemort’s group. To be a Death Eater, to get the tattoo, you’re top notch of the best Voldemort has to offer other than himself. And he’s got a lot more pawns, but his Death Eaters are the ones that he entrusts this dangerous and evil stuff to. Michael: Yeah. I think the Death Eaters… part of that skewed vision of a million Death Eaters comes from the movies. Kat: Yeah, definitely. Michael: Especially the scene where they all attack Hogwarts and break through the shield. Ryan: Yeah. Alison: Yeah. Michael: Because there’s just this huge crane shot of a million Death Eaters standing outside Hogwarts! [laughs] Alison: But we do know he’s got a lot of people working for him between Snatchers and the Ministry… Ryan: Right. Michael: Yeah, he does. I think a lot of – and maybe this is just pure bull that I’m pulling out of the air – but I always kind of saw that the fillers of his followers are more like a Narcissa, where they sympathize with the cause but they don’t have a Dark Mark on their arm. Alison: Yeah! No, definitely. I just… yeah. Michael: Because I think Goblet of Fire is a confirmation that that inner circle is small. Ryan: So it’s almost like an evil Knights of the Round Table, kind of. I’ve always thought about that. Kat: Yeah, sure. Michael: See, anybody else ever play Kingdom Hearts? Ryan: Yep. Big fan, man. Big fan. Michael: I was just going to say, Organization 13 is what I thought of… Ryan: Yes! Oh my God. I was thinking of that reference, but I didn’t want to say it because it would have been weird… Michael: [laughs] Because it would have meant you were a nerd! Ryan: No, no, no, we’re all clearly nerds… [Michael laughs] Ryan: I just didn’t want to say something that everyone would be like, “Okay, Ryan, no one gets that. You’re fired.” [Kat laughs] Michael: No, it’s cool. There’s a nerd totem pole, and I just revealed where I am on it. Ryan: I’d high-five you… Michael: [laughs] Okay, invisible high-five. Ryan: That’s right, street cred up. Michael: [laughs] But I think that’s a valid point to raise up, Alison, especially because, like you said, I think the movies really do twist that image of who Voldemort’s followers are. That was always a hard thing for me when I first read Deathly Hallows, because the Death Eaters have been brought up but they just don’t really get enough face time in the books for me to really associate who’s who. Kat: Mhm. Yeah. Ryan: Yeah. Michael: I always get them muddled up with which one is which. Alison: Well, they’re kind of all just a clump. Michael: Yeah, they are. Alison: They all just kind of blend together. Michael: And they all play their biggest role in Hallows… but those roles are pretty considerable. But coming in the last book where we’re already being introduced to a lot of new concepts, it’s a lot to take, I think. Kudos to those people who went through the books and actually sussed out which Death Eaters were which… [Alison laughs] Michael: … for the sake of making this podcast and discussion better. Ryan: Thumbs up. Michael: Thank you. A fun little new tidbit, we’ve got a new spell. Here it is the first time and it’ll never come up again: it’s Deprimo. It means “dig deep” or “press down” – does the job pretty good. This is not the Gouging Spell – that’s Defodio – but this is a one-time explosive spell that Hermione uses. And as I was saying before, Harry is not the only person to notice that Xenophilius is putting himself in quite a bit of danger for his daughter. It would seem Hermione has noticed the same thing, because her escape plan is astonishing. She manages to actually… she thinks forward so much that she remembers that Ron should not be seen at this point – Harry and her can be seen; Ron cannot. So she puts the Invisibility Cloak over Ron and then she Apparates out, but not before blasting a hole in the floor to ensure that the Death Eaters see them so that Xenophilius and Luna, hopefully, come to no further harm. I’m kind of doubtful that they were completely spared for that. I’m not sure what happens to Xenophilius after this… Kat: I’ve got a feeling the Death Eaters zoomed the heck right out of there to try and follow him. Alison: Oh, yeah. Ryan: Oh, totally. Michael: Oh, you think? Kat: Yeah. Ryan: Yeah. Alison: Yeah, they weren’t going to hang around. Michael: Did Xenophilius go to Azkaban for a spell, or did he just stay at home? Alison: I don’t think so. Ryan: I think they mentioned it in Potterwatch maybe. I can’t quite remember. Michael: Oh, yeah. They might. Alison: Oh, yeah. I’d have to reread that part, though. Kat: Hold on, I’m going to do a search in my book for Xeno. Michael: I’ll look online. Alison: Oh, no, it says, “Well, as regular listeners will know, several of the more outspoken supporters of Harry Potter have now been imprisoned, including Xenophilius Lovegood…” Ryan: Ah. Kat: “… erstwhile editor of The Quibbler.” Yep, I just found it as you were saying that. [Alison and Michael laugh] Michael: So yes, poor Xenophilius has gone to prison for his actions. Kat: Which, you know what? Quite honestly, that’s a safer place for him to be right now. Alison: Really. Michael: Oh, yeah. Kat: Let’s be honest. Ryan: That’s what you get for being a good father. [Michael and Ryan laugh] Kat: How do we think the Dementors affect him? Michael: Are the Dementors there anymore? Are they still being used in Azkaban? Alison: I would think so. Kat: Why wouldn’t they? Ryan: They’re breeding. Michael: Yeah, that’s true. I just know that the Death Eaters have also been sending them out into the world to roam freely, so I didn’t know if after they… Alison: They probably do a little bit of both. Kat: I just assumed that they were there because Death Eaters are jerks. Alison: Yeah. Michael: Yeah, that’s fair. Ryan: Yeah. Michael: I’d assume if it was the effect that they had on him, I’m sure he’s just thinking of Luna the whole time. Ryan: It’s kind of like Sirius, too. It wouldn’t be a happy memory that he lost Luna, but it would be a memory of Luna. Michael: Mhm. Ryan: So there’s that. Alison: I wonder if he’d feel guilty. Michael: Yeah, maybe he would. Alison: He’d just be stewing in guilt for… Michael: A lot of things. Alison: Well, yeah. [Alison and Michael laugh] Ryan: He’s got to feel guilty on two levels. Level one is that he didn’t get his daughter, so one, that failed. And two, he gave up Harry Potter. He probably doesn’t know that Harry hasn’t been captured. Alison: Yeah. Ryan: So he’s like, “I really messed up.” Kat: You know what, I actually don’t think that he feels guilty at all about giving up Harry. Ryan: No, but when he’s stewing in that cell… Kat: No, I don’t think that he’s one of those people that is going to show remorse or regret. There are just some people in life who so firmly believe what they believe and what they’re doing is right, that I don’t think he would ever feel regret for that. In a very different vein, I liken that to Umbridge – same thing. She’s never going to feel regret for something that she does because she truly, 100 percent believes what she’s doing is right. And I think that Xeno feels that, too. Ryan: I just bring it up because I think he would think that because Harry would be his best chance to get Luna back. So if he’s the reason Harry gets captured, then he really has no chance to ever see Luna again. But if Harry’s out there, he’s like: “Maybe he’ll defeat Voldemort and I’ll get my daughter back.” Alison: I would think he would feel guilty for betraying Luna’s friends. Ryan: I agree with Kat in that way though. Alison: He would just feel bad that these people that accepted his daughter, that his daughter loves, he was basically sending them to their deaths. Kat: I don’t think he’s going to feel bad about that until he talks to Luna about it later. I don’t think he feels bad about that now. Alison: That’s valid. Michael: I think that actually goes in tandem too, Kat, with what you guys discussed last week about how much Xenophilius actually believed what he was printing about Harry in The Quibbler prior to changing for the Death Eaters. Kat: Mhm. Ryan: Sure. Michael: I know you guys discussed that. Maybe it wasn’t so much his belief in Harry, because as we see in these chapters, Xenophilius doesn’t seem to have that much faith in Harry. And it might actually have been that he was just writing those things because he was writing against the grain because that’s what he does. Ryan: Well, that might be another quick nod to Jo’s thoughts on the media. Even though we think The Quibbler is a positive thing and a positive spin, he was so quick to suddenly change his story based on everything going on. He was so quick when things got tough, to change his story from support to not support. So I don’t know if that’s another nod to what she thinks about mass media as a whole, but it’s definitely there. Michael: Well, into the evolving beliefs of each of these individual characters that we’ve met throughout the series, I think we’ve encountered a lot of characters who don’t always learn their lesson the first time or may not be who they always seem to be when we first met them. Xenophilius is another one who falls into that trap. Kat: Indeed, he is. Michael: Little asterisk mentioned at the end of the episode here, listeners. We didn’t bring her up that much again because there’s not that much revealed about her – she’s discussed on Pottermore; she has a very minor section. Pandora Lovegood is the name of Luna’s mother, who we do see a picture of. Interestingly, as Harry notes, Luna has never looked more groomed than in that picture. [Kat and Michael laugh] Ryan: Great name. Michael: I misspoke earlier. She was not a potioneer, she was an experimenter of spells. So I just wanted to correct that because I knew everybody would realize that I got that wrong. [laughs] Ryan: One of the few mentions we get of that being a profession, like a spell creation thing. Michael: Mhm. Yeah. In a way, she’s kind of a pioneer. Kat: Yeah. Michael: But yes, we’ve had quite a visit with the Lovegoods, and Hermione, thank goodness, has saved our hides and we’re back to the forest. Because that is the end… Kat: It’s a good chapter. Michael: … of the chapter. Yeah. Ryan: It’s good, yeah. Alison: Yeah. Michael: I was so glad I got the chapter lead on this because the “Three Brothers” fairy tale was just… Kat: I knew you wanted it. Michael: Oh my God, I love the “Three Brothers” fairy tale! I was tempted to talk about it now, but I was like no, we’ll save it for the movie. Because it’s one of my favorite scenes in Part 1! Alison: Oh my gosh, it’s so good. [Michael laughs] Kat: And we’ll just mention the movie real quick, guys. That’s going to happen on January 23. It is a Saturday. [Michael squeals with delight] Kat: We are going to be watching Deathly Hallows – Part 1. Michael: Yes, that was a thing we debated for quite a while, whether we should watch Part 1 and Part 2 together or if we should split them. So we made the choice, and we split them. Kat: Yep. So mark your calendars January 23, and it will start at 10 a.m. Eastern Time. I know that’s a little early for the west coasters, but it’s… Alison: Worth it! Kat: We want to try and make it so that our Down Under friends can visit. Ryan: I’ll see what I can do. [Alison and Michael laugh] Michael: I was going to say, I expect you there, Ryan. I need some more film people in the discussion. Ryan: Yeah, I’ll do the video. Michael: [laughs] That always helps. Okay, Alison, wow us. Alison: Well, I don’t know how much I’ll wow you, but here’s our Podcast Question of the Week for this week. [Alison and Michael laugh] Alison: I know our listeners… Michael: I’m being wowed. Alison: Yeah. Our listeners will wow us with their answers to this. We know already. Michael: Oh, yeah. Alison: So this one’s a little bit more of a fun one. And as we discussed, we discussed the pros and the cons of each of the three Hallows, and you heard our answers, so now we want to get to know you as well as you know us now. So which Hallow would you choose and why? So go on over to our main site and give us your reasoning behind your choice of the wand, the stone, or the cloak, and we will read some of them next week. Ryan: Wow. Michael: Come see free movies with me! Get your Invisibility Cloak! [Everyone laughs] Kat: Are we going to start campaigning now? Alison: Me and Michael are hiding in the back of the theater watching Star Wars again. [laughs] [Michael laughs] Kat: I can bring back Dumbledore… I don’t know. [Alison and Michael laugh] Kat: I don’t know how to campaign for the stone. I don’t know how to do that. Ryan: Oh, man. Voldemort card. Michael: Yeah, that is kind of the trump card, isn’t it? Kat: Okay. Well, Ryan, we want to thank you so much for joining us. We hope you had a really amazing time. Ryan: Oh, man. Yeah! The best. So good. [Alison and Michael laugh] Kat: You told us earlier that you’re on a couple of podcasts, too. Ryan: Yeah. Kat: Want to tell the listeners about that? Ryan: Yeah, I have a podcast called The RyKy Podcast with my roommate Kyle, and it’s us talking nonsense for an hour. We get ten episodes and it releases sporadically because my roommate travels Europe a lot doing work. But if you’re looking for nonsense to cling to, it’s great. And I’m also the host of The Mynock Podcast, which is a lot more specific. I play a Star Wars game called X-Wing Miniatures. It’s a tabletop game and it’s really nerdy, but one of the best games I ever played. I host that and we talk about strategy and whatnot, so… Michael: See, I say my thing about Kingdom Hearts and Ryan is just like, “And then all the nerdness explodes everywhere!” [Alison and Michael laugh] Ryan: Yeah, that’s a “nerdsplosion.” Michael: It’s a nerdsplosion! Ryan: Seriously, guys, thanks so much for having me on; I had a blast. I’ve been listening since you guys started, like your first episode, and… Kat: Wow. Ryan: … I’m really glad I was able to be on. Alison: Aww! Kat: Thank you. You came just at the right time then. Ryan: I know. Great. Kat: Four months from the end. [Alison laughs] Michael: And if any of you listeners out there would like to be on the show just like Ryan, that is possible. We have spots! They are available, but they are limited because Deathly Hallows is almost done. So get over your nerves, find the Gryffindor within you, and audition to be on the show. You can find out how to do that on the “Be on the Show” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. If you have a set of headphones with a mic built in, it’s pretty much all you need. Or if you have a microphone, we only ask for basic recording equipment, as well as a recording program on your computer, and then you’re all set to go. We don’t require any fancy-schmancy stuff. Kat: In the meantime, if you want to keep in touch with us, you can find us on Twitter at @AlohomoraMN, facebook.com/openthedumbledore, on Tumblr at mnalohomorapodcast.tumblr.com, Instagram at alohomoramn, of course, our website is alohomora.mugglenet.com, and don’t forget to download your ringtone for free while you’re there. And as always, you can send us an audioBoom over at alohomora.mugglenet.com. It’s free – all you need is an Internet connection and a microphone. Click the little button in the right-hand menu, keep your message under 60 seconds, and you just might hear it on the show. Michael: Check out the Alohomora! store! We sell lots of cool products. Not Erumpent horns because… [Alison laughs] Michael: … that’s controlled by the Ministry. Kat: Class B tradeable. Michael: Yes, Class B tradeable. We can’t be selling that stuff without Ministry approval. But we do have lots of other cool products like house shirts, flip-flops, water bottles, all that cool stuff. Just because the holidays are over doesn’t mean you can’t give an awesome gift – great gift for those of you who didn’t know what to buy for your friends this holiday. [Alison laughs] Michael: So check out the Alohomora! store. You can get to the link from our main site, alohomora.mugglenet.com. Alison: And also make sure you check out our smartphone app. You can download it for free. Just search for the Podcast Source in your phone’s app store. And you can hear all sorts of crazy things that we do. Michael: Which I can do now! Because I have a smartphone. Alison: Woo! Kat: Right, you have an iPhone now! [claps] Michael: [laughs] I will go download that app! Kat: I’m so happy. Michael: Because it is free and I can. [Alison and Michael laugh] Kat: Welcome to the ‘Teens, Michael. Michael: Thank you. It’s wonderful on this side of the time. Kat: Yeah. And I just want to tell everybody that we’re so excited that we are on Patreon. We are a patron of Patreon. You can go on there and you can give us a monthly pledge, as little as $1. And what it does is it just funds the show and keeps us going because we are coming to an end, or are we? You never know. So definitely head over there and find out how you can become a sponsor. The link will be at the top of alohomora.mugglenet.com. Michael: And please also make sure to check out… if you’re enjoying Alohomora! but are looking for some other Harry Potter podcast to fill the gap, especially when it comes to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them and the latest news that’s going on with that, MuggleNet.com has a new podcast called SpeakBeasty. [in a Transatlantic accent] It’s fabulous; it’s just like going to the speakeasy but for wizards. Kat: [in a Transatlantic accent] Hey, you dirty No-Maj. Michael: [laughs] [in a Transatlantic accent] There you go. That’s how you say it. [Alison laughs] Michael: They talk a lot like that on SpeakBeasty, actually. [Alison laughs] Michael: Actually, I recently listened to the first episode, and it was fantastic. Kat: So funny. Michael: It’s done by a lot of our friends and co-staff over at MuggleNet.com, and I believe you can find the links to that just on MuggleNet.com, correct? Kat: Mhm. Michael: Okay. So just head over to MuggleNet.com and check out SpeakBeasty. They are also, of course, on iTunes as well. Kat: Yeah, and they’re on every social network under @speakbeasty, so you can find them. Alison: And they’re absolutely hysterically funny. Michael: They’re fabulous. Kat: Yes. Alison: And brought up really great analysis and speculation as well, so… Kat: They’re the second-best podcast that MuggleNet has. [Everyone laughs] Alison: Ooh, we’re raking now. We’re going to start a fight. [laughs] Michael: Ooh, start an internal podcast war. [laughs] Kat: Oh, no. Michael: But for now, we’ve got to get out of here because this house has exploded, so it’s time to leave. [Show music begins] Michael: I’m Michael Harle. Kat: I’m Kat Miller. Alison: And I’m Alison Siggard. Thank you for listening to Episode 171 of Alohomora! Kat: Open the Dumbledore! Alison: Deprimo! [Someone makes an explosion sound] [Show music continues] [Michael sings “Hedwig’s Theme”] Ominous voice: Death actually gets personification. Yeah! Death. Death. Death. Ryan: And I don’t even know what’s happening. Goodbye.
