Transcript – Episode 136
[Show music begins]
Michael Harle: This is Episode 136 of Alohomora! for May 9, 2015.
[Show music continues]
Michael: Welcome, listeners, back to another episode of Alohomora!, MuggleNet.com’s global reread of the Harry Potter series. I’m Michael Harle.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric Scull.
Kat Miller: And I’m Kat Miller. And our very special fan host today is our friend Em Mackie from Sydney, Australia. Say hello to our listeners, Em.
Em Mackie: Hello, everybody.
Kat: Tell them a little bit about yourself.
Em: So I’m 19. I am a[n] arts, theater, and history student at the University of Sydney. And as to my Harry Potter journey, I actually started reading the books when I was four or five and found MuggleNet maybe two or three years later, started listening to MuggleCast when it came out… So I was nine. I figured that out recently…
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Em: … and I was like, “Oh my gosh!” Like, “Yeah, that’s a long time of my life.” Yeah, and just took me and absolutely completely immersed [me] ever since that kind of rabbit hole experience.
Kat: So you must be pretty excited to talk to Eric Scull today?
Em: [laughs] Yeah, a little bit. It’s been a bit funny to…
[Kat laughs]
Michael: Oh, wow! [laughs] She was hiding it very well.
Eric: You must be excited to talk Harry Potter today!
[Em and Michael laugh]
Em: Yes, absolutely.
Kat: [Which] House are you?
Em: I’m a Slytherin, but also…
Eric, Kat, and Michael: Ooh.
Em: … I’ve been cosplaying Hermione since before I even knew what cosplay was, so I’ve got a complete Gryffindor costume. So it’s a bit like Eric and his situation.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: There you go.
[Em laughs]
Kat: Well, Eric, you represent Gryffindor today, and Em, you’re Syltherin, and we have all four.
Michael: Yay!
Eric: You got to love how that works. [laughs]
Kat: Yeah. Eric, you’re the flip-flop. So if Michael or Rosie isn’t here, then you get to be the Hufflepuff. But if they’re here, you’re the Gryffindor.
Eric: Huffledor.
Kat: Yeah, that’s how it works.
Michael: Although Eric, I was so proud to see that you wore your Hufflepuff tie to the Studio Tour.
Eric: The Studio Tour, yes. Yes, I did.
Michael: I was going to be really sad if you wore your Gryffindor attire.
Eric: No, no, no.
Michael: So I was very happy to see you representing Hufflepuff.
Eric: Well, I… They matched it. They paired it with a pair of robes, which I don’t own, and I was able to do my Quidditch and riding the broom as a Hufflepuff.
Michael: I saw that.
Eric: So I’m, apparently, a Hufflepuff Keeper now. I’ve learned that about myself.
[Em laughs]
Kat: It’s funny, because when we were there, I didn’t realize how many Hufflepuffs we have on staff, actually.
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Eric: Until we took a group photo. [laughs]
Kat: We took group photos, and the Hufflepuff one was huge.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: It was huge. We barely fit in the Great Hall; that’s how many Hufflepuffs are on MuggleNet staff now.
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: But yeah, it’s actually great to be back on Alohomora! since then, and in preparation for this chapter that we’re reading, I, of course, had to go back and reread all of the other chapters that I had missed since that trip. So it’s good to be back. But it’s good to be back doing this, this Book 6 stuff.
Michael: Micah was right when he guest hosted. He said you guys were slacking. That’s what it was. [laughs]
Eric: That’s what it was. Well, if you know, on MuggleCast, we did a chapter-by-chapter segment, which is sort of a spirit brother or a precursor to what we do on Alohomora! We do it a lot better on this show.
[Em laughs]
Eric: But chapter-by-chapter, we kind of gave up midway through Book 5.
[Em, Eric, and Michael laugh]
Eric: So there'[re] certain chapters that have… Suffice to say, Alohomora! has far exceeded the initial dream, and it’s thrill[ing] to finally go back and do… The book, of course, came out ten years ago, when Em was nine…
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: … and has been out ever since. And even for me, it’s nice to delve back into the book, to be doing that on this show because we did it the first time ten years ago. So a lot has changed, and of course, the series has been completed. And I’m just… I get all nostalgic but at the same time, really, really involved in all the stuff we’re going to talk about today.
Michael: Which is?
Eric: Which is Chapter 18…
[Em, Eric, and Michael laugh]
Eric: … “Birthday Surprises.” Nice setup. Thank you, Michael.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: And there is at least one birthday surprise, but you know there’s more than that because it’s plural in this chapter that we’re talking about.
Kat: But as usual, before we head on to this week’s chapter, we’re going to talk about some topics that were brought up from all of you lovely listeners from our last week’s episode, which was Chapter 17 of Half-Blood Prince. Our first comment here comes from TheQueerWeasleyCousin, and it says,
“…is it possible to use memories as proof in court? If I’m accused of murder, can I bring memories that exculpate me? Or the opposite: Can I [prove] someone guilty with my memories of them convicting the crime? Would it then be possible to force people to show their memories of what really happened? This seems really problematic to me, and I would be glad if it [weren’t] possible, but on the other hand it seems appropriate to take away someone’s soul if the [M]inistry thinks they are dangerous ([i.e.,] Sirius, Crouch Jr.), so I don’t see why it would be illegal. Maybe it’s just unnecessary because they have [V]eritaserum? Do they use this in court?”
So this comment stemmed from our discussion last week about memories and how they’re manipulated and how they’re used and how… the whole Slughorn bit. So what do you guys think?
Michael: I definitely know Rowling addressed Veritaserum as a big no because she said that…
Eric: Really?
Michael: Yeah, she said that wizards can either have taken an antidote prior if they know that they’re going to court…
Kat: Oh! Wait!
Michael: … or they can actually magically seal off their throats so they won’t drink it.
Kat: Wait! Wait! What?
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Where…? Did this come from Pottermore?
Michael: I think it did. It’s canon. I know it’s canon. I’ve read it before.
Eric: Magically seal your throat. How will you breathe?
[Em and Michael laugh]
Michael: I don’t know, but that’s…
Eric: I guess…
Michael: Well, I mean, yeah, that would present problems, but…
Kat: Wait a minute. But you don’t breathe and drink through the same tube.
Michael: No, yeah, that’s just it. You’d be closing off your… You wouldn’t be closing off your vocal chords.
Eric: Well, there’s that.
Michael: So… but that…
Kat: Yikes!
Michael: I mean, memories… I would assume that Slughorn’s tampered memory is proof of why they don’t use them in court, right?
Em: Well, it depends on whether or not you decide that you can tamper with pre-memory extraction or post-memory extraction. Because if you make them take the memory out in court, then that… You can assume that they haven’t tampered with it post, but… yeah.
Eric: That’s a good point. That’s a good point because we don’t know…
Kat: Although that goes off the assumption that you can’t tamper with the memory while it’s still inside your head.
Em: Yeah, exactly. And you guys had a massive discussion last week on that.
Eric: Right. I think, with last week, there’s the memory of Morfin Gaunt that is used. Actually, Dumbledore uses his own memory to try [to] clear him, and the Ministry is… They aren’t immediately… Their response is not to immediately exonerate him. They… right there, deciding on it. When he dies, eventually, because they’re… Dumbledore tries to get him out of jail, but it takes too long. So I think that might offer insight into the process. You can, certainly, use memories in court because Dumbledore did in that case. But I think, yeah, with Slughorn’s memory too, Dumbledore tells Harry that it’s a very crude version of covering his tracks. It’s possible, and I think it’s even implied that you could do a better job of changing your memory and of hiding what is fabricated and what is not. I think that’s possible, but the question is, again, “Is it before or after you take it out of your head?”
Michael: See yeah, and I had always assumed that you mess with a memory in your head.
Kat: Ooh! See, I’m the opposite.
Michael: Well, because Rowling has said that the Pensieve memories that Harry sees… The one thing she’s confirmed about that is that those memories are a true representation of what happened. The memory’s unskewed by a view point. It’s completely true, and from what I gather, at least as far as we know, the Pensieve doesn’t have any way of messing up a memory.
Kat: But you’re assuming that the Pensieve is the only thing your memory can go into.
Michael: Yeah, that’s true. I don’t know if you can add a memory to a potion, which sounds like a horrible idea.
Kat: Well, I mean, you can put them in vials, and if you can put it in a vial, why couldn’t you mess with it in the vial?
Eric: Maybe while it’s in the vial? Yeah, you can put it in like an extractor [laughs] or one of those machines that whizzes it really fast, so it dilutes it.
[Em and Eric laugh]
Michael: Well, yeah, and I guess it makes sense to ponder it, considering it’s Slughorn whose memory’s been messed with. Somebody who’s actually really good at potions.
Eric: At potion-making and diluting the substance and that kind of thing, yeah, but…
Michael: I always thought that the fog was… and I think that some people commented the same comment, but I always thought that the fog was essentially a representation of his guilt so that it was internal, that it came from him. I mean, yeah, there isn’t… I don’t think Rowling has spoken about that. But I did find she did confirm about Veritaserum. That was through her old website.
Kat: Of course. The great one.
Michael: The cool one.
Eric: The better one.
[Em, Eric, and Michael laugh]
Eric: The cool one.
Kat: But moving on with the topic of memories and the Pensieve, we have a great comment here from Hufflepuffskein. It jumps ahead in this book a little bit, but it’s very relevant, so I think this is a good one to come up here. It says,
“I think that the ‘basin’ in Voldemort’s cave is actually a [P]ensieve, perhaps a makeshift one made by V[oldemort, r]ather than one professionally made. It is described as having runes around the edge just like Dumbledore’s (perhaps just the runes one needs to put on it to ensure that one can reenter memories), and I think that the liquid that Dumbledore drinks is full of memories. Instead of a liquid that makes him relive his worst memories, as I think is the most widely held idea, what if the liquid is actually like that which fills Dumbledore’s [P]ensieve but is full of Voldemort’s memories? What if like Dumbledore storing memories (or copies) in his [P]ensieve, V[oldemort] placed his memories of all the people he had killed or all the terrible things he had to do for the rebirthing or all the things he had to do to create the [H]orcruxes in his cave basin/[P]ensieve, and the agony that Dumbledore feels is not in response to reliving his own worst memories but in having to ‘relive’ or experience all the excruciatingly awful things Voldemort has done over his lifetime? As Noah asked, he would be drinking someone else’s memories, living them as if he had plunged his head in, and the pain of seeing them incapacitated him…”
So this came from Noah’s question, “Can you drink memories?” And I think this theory is amazing. I never thought of that before. So cool.
Eric: I think it’s… definitely points for ingenuity, but I think that to Voldemort, they’re not his worst memories or his terrible memories. He cherishes every person he’s killed, but he cherishes being an evil badass, and he would not share those personal memories with the public or with a stranger. He wouldn’t put them in a cave for anybody to find because that would make him vulnerable.
Kat: Even if it would destroy somebody?
Eric: Oh! He doesn’t have that kind of understanding. I don’t think he thinks that way of “I’m going to brow, beat, and break down the nice do-gooder who comes in and finds my Horcrux by supplying memories of my evil deeds. Hoo, hoo, hoo, ha, ha, ha!”
Kat: A nice do-gooder…
[Em and Michael laugh]
Kat: …. who finds his Horcrux?
Eric: Because yeah, really don’t think he thinks that way. I think… I don’t have the answers. I don’t know what it is that’s in the memory. I mean, I think it’s very clearly… I think Rowling has answered that he was relieving some stuff with Ariana or something, and he was muttering. We can talk about it, of course, when the chapter comes. But I think it’s very unlikely that Voldemort would share that much of himself, even if it’s for a trap or a test. He would much more than likely surround it with reanimated corpses…
Kat: Oh, wait, he did do that!
[Em laughs]
Eric: … that do his bidding.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Eric: Exactly! Exactly my point. Than share anything that would put himself at greater risk.
Kat: But can you drink memory?
Eric: I don’t see what good it would do you. It might make you look gassy.
Michael: I don’t think you can just because it’s not… Memories are described… I think because it’s hard to picture, but memories are described as a mixture of a liquid and a gas. So I don’t think you could. If you did consume them, I don’t think anything would happen. We’ve seen people memories back in, I believe. Snape extensively puts his memories back in his head in Order of the Phoenix.
Eric: Dumbledore does too.
Michael: Yeah, there are scenes where they put them back in, and they have to put them back in their head. So I’m assuming taking a memory…
Eric: Yeah, even though you can bottle them and put them in a vial, they can be contained in a container, I think they specifically belong in either a container or your brain.
Kat: So that would destroy them, drinking them. They would be gone forever?
Eric: I think maybe it’s like the ghosts in Casper, where they just be in you, but you’d have to get them out.
[Eric, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Eric: I don’t know! I was just thinking of Stretch, Fatso, and Stinky inside Bill Pullman.
Michael: Beautiful ’90s reference right there.
Eric: Thank you.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: No, but it is magic that causes memories to be malleable to begin with, right? Because I mean, Muggles… We never… There’s nothing in the real world to suggest that we can carry memories around with us. So I think that same magic quality makes it so that you can’t either drink it. Memories aren’t used in any kind of potion-making, right.
Kat: That we know of.
Eric: Memories… The only other use for memories and magic is for a Patronus, right? Although that’s kind of a milky, ghost-like substance.
Michael: Well, and memories… That gets back to a question we had asked long before about memories. About when you take them out of your head, do you retain a copy or do you lose them completely, because then if you put them in the basin, how would you be aware that you had the memory? That gets really complicated, so yeah, and that’s something Rowling still hasn’t answered either, so yeah, there’s stuff about how the memory…
Eric: I thought the whole purpose of the Pensieve was to rid your mind of all those extra thoughts, right? Dumbledore specifically…
Em: Yeah, because Dumbledore uses it that way.
Eric: Yeah, Dumbledore specifically uses it that way. I think – Is it during Book 4? – so that he can work with Karkaroff, forgetting that he’s this former Death Eater or whatever. So my guess would be that you do forget it, although with Slughorn and the events of [the] last chapter, Dumbledore specifically said that he thinks the real memory is still in there somewhere. Because the fact that Slughorn carries this guilt – and I love the idea that the fog in his memory is guilt clouding the whole scene – is that he remembers telling the person who eventually became Lord Voldemort about Horcruxes, which nobody’s supposed to know about and the darkest, most evil thing you could possibly do. The fact that he is responsible for that and possibly caused Voldemort to commit deaths specifically for that purpose – I mean, how many deaths do you think he did before he got it right? – is the guilt that means that Slughorn, when he takes that memory out, is still… There is a trace of it. There is a trace that says it’s almost connected to Slughorn’s identity. I have committed this grievous sin, this grievous crime, and no matter how much he tweaks the memory, his nature, the fact that he committed this terrible thing can’t be removed or hasn’t been by him.
Michael: I mean, even if you can drink memories, don’t, guys. That’s rude.
Kat: I am sure they’re not yummy.
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Kat: They’re not worth the calories.
Eric: Ooh, this one’s very tasty.
Michael: [laughs] This one tastes like sadness.
Eric: Caramelized memories.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Yuck.
Michael: Don’t do that guys.
Eric: That’s the next thing they’re going to be selling at the Wizarding World park.
[Em, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Eric: They’ve got firewhisky, and now they’re going to sell memories.
Kat: Which is actually alcoholic.
Eric: Yeah, oh really?
Kat: So I can’t try it, yeah. Well, I mean, I could, but I’m not going to, so…
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Kat: All right, since you brought up teenage Voldemort, I guess we’ll go on to our next comment from EnoughEffingOwls. It says,
“In this chapter…”
Meaning the last chapter.
“… Dumbledore mentions people who went to school at the same time as Tom being reluctant to talk about him. I’m sure this has been discussed before…”
Although honestly, I don’t think it has.
“… but I’m still really unclear [about] how many people know Voldemort’s real identity. It seems like everyone who went to school with him would know who he became since he started using the new moniker while at school. That’s a significant number of people who[m] I expect would tell other people. But it seems like in reality, most of the wizarding world isn’t aware of Voldemort’s true identity. Maybe I’m exaggerating this whole thing, but it seems like a pretty big discrepancy to me[, p]articularly because we know how quickly word gets around at Hogwarts about things no one was supposed to know.”
Michael: [continues] [as Dumbledore]
“‘Harry, what happened […] between you and [P]rofessor Quirrell is a complete secret, so, naturally the whole school knows.’ Smiley face.”
[Em, Eric, and Michael laugh]
Michael: Happy Dumbledore. [laughs]
Eric: I think for this one, we’re forgetting two things. 1) It’s a… I don’t want to say, “Hogwarts is a closed community” because that is sideways the point, but think about how many students outside your House you actually interact with when you’re at Hogwarts. Even in mixed classes, Harry… and Harry is not a completely perfect example of every student at Hogwarts, but he still keeps himself fairly to the Gryffindors with the exception of the DA, which Voldemort… I don’t know how far Voldemort tried recruiting people, but if you’re looking at [the] last chapter for evidence too, a lot of the boys who admire him, a lot of the other students are – what? – Alecto and Goyle and some of the people who would become his Death Eaters. And so people who would have used Voldemort’s Voldemort name ended up being his inner circle anyway, and those are people who aren’t available in the public to remember.
Kat: But okay, so let’s pretend that Jo is right and there'[re] 1,000 people at Hogwarts, so wouldn’t expect at least the approximately 250 Slytherins to know about it?
Eric: Actually – where is it? – this chapter, the new one that we’re reading, I think it’s hundreds currently. I think somebody says… I forget what it is, if it’s the love potion, something about that. Somebody says “hundreds of students” in this chapter. But still, I think the whole… We have a very biased perspective because Dumbledore says to Harry in the last chapter that after he killed his father, he dropped that name entirely. Clearly, I think the teachers would have still called him Tom that last year of his school.
[Kat laughs]
Eric: He’s not going to be like, “No, Professor McGonagall, I require you to call me Lord Voldemort. Trust me; you’ll get it eventually.”
Kat: “The T is silent.”
Eric: He was still known as Tom for everybody except… It was a cool name for his cool friends to call him that. I think he still would have kept Tom as a convention to teachers and strangers, I think, at that point.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Well, I think he had to.
Eric: They would have just gone to school with him for six years, and all of a sudden, he asked to be called Lord Voldemort. Next thing you know, Lord Voldemort is killing people and terrorizing people in the news. I think that would cause many people to go forward and be like, “Yeah, I knew this dude.” But I think if he did it secretively, just talking from a secret code name perspective, if you get this evil wizard who’s budding and who’s coming out, Lord Voldemort, and they don’t recognize that name, then they can very… It’s not as easy to be like, “Oh, that’s just Tommy Boy.”
Kat: I’m beginning to think you have first-hand experience with this, Eric.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: No, I’m just guessing. If people didn’t know… And people have forgotten surely by the later years, by Harry’s first and second year at Hogwarts. Dumbledore is the one who says, “Not many people know this” or “People have forgotten that Lord Voldemort was once a boy called Tom Riddle,” and it’s sort of something that he tries to drive home all the time, but I think that people generally want to forget that Voldemort was actually mortal once, and Voldemort wants to forget. But while he had to be, I think that he would have still gone by Tom. And in fact, I’m trying to remember, but when Voldemort comes back to ask for a job, I think there’s a comment in that quote from Book 7 about… Dumbledore mentions his name but is still calling him Tom. He says something like, “You want to be called something else now.” So maybe that just goes against what I said or maybe that’s when he’s 20 or 21, and he’s changed his face and lost a nose. Then maybe that’s where he starts going really strongly publicly by Lord Voldemort instead of his Muggle name.
Michael: Hmm, I think the book does a really good job of… I think this is almost too good of a job of showing that the Slytherins, more than any of the other Houses, keep to themselves. They don’t spread things to the other Houses. I think that’s especially well shown in Book 5 with the DA and the fact that no Slytherins are participants. So I can’t imagine it spreading out of the Slytherin common room, but it’s pretty well explained that Tom very carefully cherry-picked who[m] he wanted around him, and I think he was pretty clear to those who were in his inner circle not to share things. I mean, he killed a student, [laughs] so he had a Basilisk in the basement that was working on his command, and it would seem, based on information from Pottermore, that at least his inner circle knew about that. So yeah, I would think that wouldn’t spread because of that alone. I think that only thing that’s always struck me as odd throughout the series with this is that probably the person who did have a major encounter with Voldemort is his youth really doesn’t talk about him that much at all, and that’s Hagrid. Hagrid had a major altercation with Voldemort, and Hagrid doesn’t really talk about Voldemort in his younger years.
Eric: Yeah, Voldemort framed him.
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Michael: Yeah, Voldemort is the reason he didn’t finish school.
Eric: And knew him well enough…
Eric and Michael: … to do that.
Michael: That always… out of all of the things about people who were around during Voldemort’s time, I think that one’s the biggest oddball one. I guess it could be explained away that Hagrid doesn’t really like to talk about Voldemort in general.
Eric: And Hagrid was young, right? He was still 12 or so when he was expelled, so…
Kat: I think we tend to forget about that incident, as prominent as it is, but… okay, one last thing here, this is a lovely what-if thrown out from RoseLumos. It says,
“[W]ouldn’t it be interesting if Tom got caught for either the Riddles’ or Myrtle’s murder as a teenager?!? Would he have ever risen to become Lord Voldemort, or would have he spent his days in Azkaban, rotting away?”
Michael: Well he was only a teen by the time he murdered his parents. So I don’t know if his magic would have been strong enough to get him out of Azkaban by that point.
Eric: I think he did a really brilliant bit of maneuvering with using Morfin’s wand and all that stuff, and we knew at that point he was a very charming individual, so I think he would have charmed his way out of Azkaban.
Michael: [laughs] Be like, “Oh, hey there, sexy Dementor.” [laughs]
Eric: Even if he were caught… no, no, no. Well, there’s that. Thank you for that.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: I mean, Tom and his wife were having problems. Tom the Dementor, not…
Michael: Tom the Dementor, right. [laughs] So many Toms.
Eric: Oh, yeah, yeah. No, no, but I mean, he was… I don’t want to say that he was well-enough connected, but maybe he’d get parole or something.
Kat: Oh, God.
[Em laughs]
Eric: Not sure. Really not sure on that front.
Michael: That raises a worthwhile question: Does…? And I guess I don’t know if the fact that they follow him to some degree speaks to that, but does Voldemort get properly affected by Dementors like other people do, or does he just not have enough soul or feeling to even react to a Dementor?
Eric: I think everybody probably… he would probably be stuck remembering the orphanage.
Michael: I wonder… considering that the rest of his soul is in different places and that’s at the core of how a Dementor attacks you, I wonder if that would even work?
Eric: Well, now, but not when he was a kid.
Michael: Well, he’s already split his soul a few times. At least once for those murders.
Eric: Perhaps so. Well, no, in his sixth year, he’s asking Slughorn about Horcruxes, so he doesn’t know about them yet.
Kat: No, he knows about them.
Michael: He knows. He has to.
Eric: He knows at the time when he asks Slughorn?
Kat: Yes, because he already made one.
Em: He’s got the ring on his finger.
Kat: He’s already made a Horcrux.
Eric: He’s got the ring. It doesn’t mean it’s a Horcrux yet. The ring is an heirloom. I know at one point Rowling said which deaths that he made Horcruxes into, but I didn’t think he would be asking Slughorn about Horcruxes if he knew about them.
Kat: He has. See, all the listeners set us straight because we talked about this last week. Rowling has confirmed, and it’s even in the book, that Tom was asking Slughorn about how you make multiple Horcruxes, not just one. So Tom had already made one. He wanted to know what would happen if he made more, and that’s what he was asking Slughorn about, so… well, there you have it. That is our recap from last week’s episode.
Michael: And we also have some comments from you listeners on the Podcast Question of the Week, which was brilliantly covered by Noah. Thank you, Noah, for stepping in for me. I really appreciate it. And this is… I like the way this question is written. This is a very Noah question. [laughs]
Kat: It is. I mean, especially when you see…
Kat and Michael: … “Wizard God” [laughs]
Kat: You know that it’s Noah.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: He got a lot of love on the site this week.
Michael: Yes, he did.
Kat: So we were all happy to have him back too. It was nice.
Michael: The question […] that Noah wrote was, “Why does Dumbledore believe Harry has a special knack for getting Slughorn’s memory? Does Dumbledore know Harry will use the Felix Felicis? Is he trusting in Wizard God? [laughs] Or is it possible that Dumbledore is aware of Harry’s use of cunning?” And I believe this question stemmed a lot out of the fact that Phineas Nigellus specifically points out that he has no idea why Dumbledore is asking Harry to do this and has no faith in him whatsoever, and Dumbledore doesn’t explain himself. And we had some really great insights from you, listeners. I wish I could have included more comments from this week because I was just blown away from these responses. But I did have to just pick a few, and the first one I picked was from Hufflepuffskein, who said,
“Perhaps Dumbledore is also doing this because he wants to give Harry a task. There’s been lots of discussion about teaching on the podcast, and here it could be that Dumbledore is interested in moving away from the […] explanatory, lecture-based [ones] and even experiential teaching he’s been doing with Harry in these ‘lessons’ to giving Harry a task to apply his skills and the information he has gleaned about both Voldemort and Slughorn. It’s like giving a student a project to help them learn the application side of knowledge. Further, this is a sort of trial task to get Harry to practice making good judgments and using his resources (like Ron and Hermione). Also, based on Dumbledore and Harry’s disagreements about Draco and his doings, perhaps Dumbledore […] sees this task as a way to redirect Harry’s focus from Draco and Snape so that he doesn’t get in the way of how Dumbledore is hoping it will unfold. This all gets muddled at the end, but perhaps all these considerations are going into Dumbledore’s decisions at this initial stage.”
So do you guys think he’s doing this just to keep Harry out of the way to some degree as well as some form of training for Harry?
Eric: I like that.
Michael: There were a lot of people who like the training thing.
Eric: I like the whole stay away from the Draco and Snape thing. Because that, obviously, causes some contention.
Michael: Some big problems, yeah. And there were a lot of listeners who suggested, not even just training for this year, but a lot of listeners put forth that maybe Dumbledore is even, knowing that he’s going to die, training Harry for what he knows is ahead in Deathly Hallows.
Kat: Absolutely that’s the case.
Eric: How is that?
Kat: Because Dumbledore, we even know at this point, is even talking to his portrait and telling his portrait things that are going to happen next year.
Eric: Yeah, but how is teaching Harry how to persuade people who don’t want to be persuaded going to prepare him for the seventh book?
Kat: There'[re] lots of things that are going to… because look at all the things he has to do.
Eric: Does it even involve persuasion?
Kat: Well, Slughorn at the end of this book, for one, and without that, Book 7 wouldn’t happen.
Eric: Well, yeah, but does it…? That’s a circular. Does his doing this actually prepare him past this moment? Yes, this is the most crucial memory that Harry has to unlock, but to answer the question of why is it him, too, does this skill help Harry in the future after this book?
Kat: I’d have to have a think on that. I’d have to think about Book 7, but…
Eric: Yeah, I’m trying to remember too.
Kat: … I mean, it couldn’t hurt.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Kat: I don’t think it’s a skill that Harry is going to be like, “Damn.”
Eric: Yeah, well, it’s interesting because Voldemort was very persuasive, and it’s interesting, and it bleeds into this chapter as well when we see Harry’s first attempt to actually get it from Slughorn. It’s basically just to imitate Voldemort, nearly exactly, and it’s interesting that Dumbledore should be the impetus by which Harry goes and does that and makes himself more like Voldemort.
Michael: Well, and actually, looking at what the use of this is in future, I think a great response came from SlytheriNZ, I’m assuming from New Zealand because the NZ is nicely incorporated into the name. SlytheriNZ said,
“From Dumbledore’s answer to Phineas Nigellus'[s] disbelief that Harry could do something Dumbledore couldn’t, and the accompanying low, musical cry from Fawkes, I believe the answer is to do with Dumbledore’s Answer For Everything: Love. Fawkes gives out those cries in response to Dumbledore’s emotions, such as when Harry declares his loyalty earlier in the chapter. In this case, Dumbledore must have known how fond of Lily Slughorn was, and indeed, when Harry succeeds in getting the memory, it is by playing the Lily card.”
[Eric and Kat laugh]
Michael: That’s what we’re calling it now.
[Em laughs]
Michael: [continues]
“It was by putting Lily’s bravery in juxtaposition with Slughorn’s cowardice and playing on his grief at the death of one of his treasured favourites. There may have been an element of cunning involved, but that came from Felix Felicis, not any innate cunning of Harry’s.”
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Eric: Sorry, Harry.
Michael: [continues]
“Ultimately, I believe that Dumbledore was trusting in Love, not Wizard God. <3"
Em: I love this comment. Absolutely. Any time you can talk about Lily, I’m all there, and I absolutely think that Lily had everything to do with his decision because we have Hermione arguing later that only Harry could’ve done this, and I think that Lily plays into that argument a lot because yeah, sure, the Felix Felicis spurs Harry on in making that call, but if he hadn’t been Lily Evans’s son, I don’t think he could have gotten that memory out of Slughorn.
Michael: I think that’s absolutely true. And I really liked that SlytheriNZ specifically cited Fawkes’s cry at the end of the chapter because I love… actually, that’s one of my favorite examples of Rowling’s writing because it’s not hit-you-on-the-head. She doesn’t explain to you what that means. It’s up to you to decide. But she does very lightly imply… and again, this opens up a can of worms about Dumbledore that I don’t know if we’re ready to get into yet, but I think that’s one of those moments that makes Dumbledore’s motivations and his behavior a little more gray than I think a lot of people often see when we reflect back on the series and how angry people get at Dumbledore, but Fawkes is one of… other than Dumbledore flat-out shedding his one manly tear that he occasionally will do…
[Eric, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Michael: … Fawkes is also a giveaway that can’t be suppressed. Fawkes usually gives away his emotions as well. So I think that was a really nice way to tie that into the aspect of, yeah, Harry is the only one who can do this because of the connection with Lily. Now, DoctorAnimagus said in the comments…
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Michael: Now, this goes along with the popular Steve Vander Ark theory that Dumbledore knows everything, which is that,
“I believe that Dumbledore knows that Harry has the lucky potion because truly, what doesn’t Dumbledore know[?] Slughorn most likely bragged about Harry’s supposed amazing potion skills.”
Do you think that Dumbledore actually knew about the Felix Felicis? Do you think he was banking on that?
Eric: I do think it’s highly possible that the staff does know about Harry getting the Felix Felicis.
Kat: Yeah, I think that if Slughorn was making that something that could be used in sporting events, on quizzes, tests, things of that nature, he would have to tell the other professors.
Eric: Oh, that’s a good point.
Kat: That’s one of those things that you tell other teachers. Like, “Hey, guys…”
[Eric laughs]
Kat: It’s like the day the DARE officer came and brought pot so that he could…
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Your DARE officer brought pot?
Kat: Yes, because he lit it, and he said, “Everybody learn this smell.”
Eric: What?! What?! Whoa! Whoa!
Kat: No, shush!
[Em laughs]
Kat: He said, “Everybody learn this smell. That way, you can tell on other people if you smell pot being smoked.”
Eric: Your DARE officer lit up in front of the whole class.
[Em and Michael laugh]
Kat: Not by his mouth!
[Michael laughs]
Kat: But yes, he did light up…
Eric: Wow!
Kat: Yeah. [laughs]
Eric: You had much cooler DARE officers than [I did].
[Em, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Kat: No, it was not cool.
Eric: No. It’s supposed to terrify you, right? It’s a terrible smell, I admit, but…
Kat: Yeah. But that’s what I’m saying. That’s my point. I think that yes, Dumbledore knew about it. There you go. I think that, yes, Dumbledore knew about it. There you go.
Michael: I guess that I… because I have pondered this myself that Dumbledore might have actually known about the Felix Felicis, and I think it is probably true that he did, but I’m almost more sympathetic to SlytheriNZ’s interpretation about Lily and love because I think the story supports that more because the Felix Felicis… I feel like Harry… if he had banked on that, if he had figured it out on his own, which I think he might have eventually if he’d gotten around to it, I think he could have done it without the Felix Felicis.
Eric: Yeah, all I’m saying is, it’s plausible that Dumbledore knows about the Felix Felicis. I certainly don’t think Dumbledore was relying specifically on Harry because he has the Felix Felicis.
Michael: Which was good that he didn’t because as we will see, Harry will continue to not use it.
[Em laughs]
Michael: But before we get to that…
Eric: Kind of like the mirror.
Michael: Yeah! Yeah. Harry sucks at using really great gifts [laughs] that are constantly thrown his way. Great deus ex machinas that people just keep giving him all the time. But before we get on to Harry’s lack of Felix Felicis, I just want to make sure [to] shout-out to all of you who participated this week in the Podcast Question [of the Week]. Again, such amazing responses that I couldn’t get to all of them. And boy, there are some doozies of usernames in here, a few you’ve known and a few that are new: bent-winged-snidget, ccmoundshroud, DisKid, Dumbledorable…
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: I love it. I love it.
Eric: That username is Dumbledorable.
Michael: … Fiendfyre, Gryffindora The Explorer…
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: HogwartsTimelord, HollyClaire, HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis, ISeeThestrals, Jaye Dozier, Minerva’s tartan biscuit tin, my personal favorite of the week – Protego My Eggo…
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Oh my God!
Kat: That’s brilliant.
Michael: That might actually be my favorite of all time so far. PuffNProud, SpinnersEnd, Susan, thebandthatneedsnointroduction, They’ve Taken My Wheezy!, and WizardorWhat. You all participated and had such great input on the Podcast Question of the Week. Listeners, if you would like to check those out, make sure [to] go to alohomora.mugglenet.com to read the responses from last week’s Podcast Question [of the Week].
Eric: Well, everybody. Now it’s time for some birthday surprises!
Michael: Surprise!
[Eric laughs]
Michael: Poison! The best kind of surprise!
[Em and Eric laugh]
Eric: Is that going to be your audio clip, Michael?
Michael: No!
[Eric and Kat laugh]
Michael: [as Harry] “Surprise! Happy birthday. Poison.”
[Eric laughs]
Kat and Michael: You get to die!
[Em and Michael laugh]
Michael: The most unexpected surprise. [laughs]
[Half-Blood Prince Chapter 18 intro begins]
Wilkie Twycross: Turn on the spot, feeling your way into nothingness, moving with deliberation! On my command, now… one…
Ron: Chapter 18.
Wilkie Twycross: … two…
Ron: “Birthday Surprises.”
Wilkie Twycross: … THREE!
[Sounds of commotion]
Female student: I just splinched my eyebrow!
[Half-Blood Prince Chapter 18 intro ends]
Eric: Anyway. Well, everybody, it’s time for our chapter discussion, and for those of you [listening] along at home, you know that, at this point, we usually begin the chapter with a summary [that] talks about the various things that happen. This is, after all, a very happening chapter, Chapter 18: “Birthday Surprises.” But instead of doing the traditional points, which we’re going to get to anyway because they’re broken into the five points that we have for discussion, I simply chose to be a little witty with the summary of this chapter, which is this: Harry WILL learn something about potions in this chapter, even if it comes close to costing RON his life!!!
[Em laughs]
Michael: Somebody should be writing summaries for Scholastic.
[Em, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Eric: Thanks, Michael.
Michael: Some of the listeners […] at home, is there an Alohomora! drinking game or an Alohomora!…?
Eric: Oh, I wouldn’t say that. I thought it was more like Alohomora! bingo. “Wizard God” gets mentioned – oh, I’ve won bingo! Or four corners…
Kat: There’s an OGM that day, yeah.
Eric: Yeah, Obligatory Genius Moment. Four corners is if all the four Houses are represented. So they got it in this chapter.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: I feel like we need to write this down this.
[Eric laughs]
Michael: Having a moment where you can’t tell the difference between Eric and Michael’s voices.
Eric: Yes, yes, yes. Although that’s a bit subjective, so I don’t know that that’s…
Michael: It is!
Kat: Yeah, I have no problem telling the difference between the two of you.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Oh, we do, though. We do.
Michael: Our parents do.
[Em, Eric, and Michael laugh]
Kat: All you have to do is laugh, and I can tell you apart.
Michael: Except when we laugh exactly at the same time.
Eric: Yeah, well, there is that.
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Eric: Well, so part of the reason for doing that “Harry is going to learn potions” is to do with the first point, which is that we have Potions class. Hello! And Harry obviously… so this is the morning after his lesson with… or I don’t know if it’s [the] morning after. Yeah, I think it is. It’s after his lesson with Dumbledore, and one of the first parts of the day is the Potions lesson, and for once, it appears, they’re going to be learning something about Potions that Harry cannot find in his book.
Michael: Oopsies.
Eric: This is terrifying. What’s his name? Gouliamp’s Third Law, is it? The wizard name? I didn’t write it down.
Kat: Golapalott’s.
Eric: Golpalott’s Third – thank you – Law, which states that the sum of the antidote would be more than the sum of the poisons. This is for combined poisons.
Michael: Isn’t it…? That part where Slughorn and Hermione are explaining Potions, I was like, “Whoa! This is the most in-depth I think we’ve gotten yet!” It was blowing my mind as I was reading it that Rowling was writing this out.
Eric: Yeah, it is crazy. It’s absolutely crazy. So if you’re dealing with a combined poison, not only will you need the antidotes to each of the poisons as ingredients, [but] you’ll also need – Slughorn calls it – a special key ingredient, mystery ingredient, which will bring them all together and give an extra kick and make everything useless. So I’m summarizing and paraphrasing terribly. Just read the book; it’s awesome. I promise everyone at home…
Michael: Write a Potions book, J.K. Rowling! Wait, she already did. [laughs]
Eric: No, it’s really cool! Really, really cool. I was going to say, “Does Book of Potions give any really cool insight like this, Michael?
[Michael laughs]
Eric: I assume you’re the only person who’s played it.
Michael: [laughs] No. Book of Potions is like, “Here’s a virtual plant. Let’s trim the leaves off of it. Leaves are what absorb sunlight.” That’s pretty much Book of Potions.
Eric: Oh. That’s a shame. That’s a shame because this is brilliant. This is absolutely brilliant.
Michael: Yes, it is. Amazing.
Eric: Slughorn expects the entire class to be able to figure out… first of all, everybody used different combined poisons which is terrifying. And everybody has to wear their gloves…
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Well, I doubt none of them are deadly.
Eric: Well, no, they’re not deadly because a bezoar, as we learn, can cure all of these.
Kat: Wait, what did you say?
Eric: A bezoar.
Michael: A “beezer?”
Eric: A bezoar.
Kat: [laughs] A bezoar.
[Em and Michael laugh]
Kat: “Beezer?”
Eric: “Beezer.” Yeah.
Michael: [in a Southern accent] “Honey, go to the cupboard and grab the beezer!”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: A bezoar, from the stomach of a goat, can cure them and I assume if the poison were really bad, it couldn’t. But anyway… because it says what, most poisons? It’ll cure most poisons?
Kat and Michael: Yeah.
Eric: Anyway, getting off topic here. Back to it. Slughorn gives everybody different combined poisons and they all have to be able to accurately predict… well, first of all there’s a spell to reveal the ingredients which is pretty cool in and of itself, and then you also have to figure out what that special ingredient is that you have to add. So Hermione takes this time, this whole lesson – it’s so fun – to gloat at Harry.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: She says things like, “Oopsey! I guess the Prince can’t help you on this one, Harry! You need an intuitive understanding of potions! Oops! Ohoho!”
[Michael laughs]
Eric: And she does terribly.
Kat: That was a good Professor Sprout!
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Really, really quite bad. And Harry, if he weren’t so distracted by actually trying to figure out what to do… Hermione thinks she’s finally beat him and at the end of class… just summarizing here, of course. Read the book; it’s awesome. She has separated her poison into 52 separate ingredients which are all in different vials – this is Hermione – and she has also… the little magical mystery bit that she has added is a clump of her own hair.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: So Hermione has put herself all into this potion, into doing this. This is the hardest she has ever worked in class, and Harry of course has perused the entire chapter of his Advanced Potion-Making book and comes across the entire chapter on antidotes. There’s one thing that’s written which is from the Half-Blood Prince and it said, “Just shove a bezoar down their throats.” And of course, Harry goes to the store cupboard, finds a bezoar, doesn’t give one to Ron, and presents it to Slughorn who immediately gives ten points to Gryffindor and doesn’t even pay attention to Hermione.
Kat: What I think is great about this moment is that Hermione thinks she has beaten Harry but in reality, she’s not going against Harry. She’s going against Snape…
Em and Eric: Mhm.
Kat: … because it’s his book, and guess what? Snape wins.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Well, she’s also going against Harry, though. I mean, you do have to recognize that she is… Ron is the one who she’s not getting along with but she has taken this opportunity to be really genuinely angry at Harry.
Kat: Right, but my point is that Harry is not acting as Harry would normally act here.
Eric: Right.
Kat: The entire year in Potions, Harry is not being Harry. Harry is being Snape. And that’s why Hermione never wins. It’s because it’s Snape, not Harry. If it were Harry and he didn’t have that book, guess what? Hermione would win.
Eric: Yeah, every time.
Kat: But yeah, it’s not. It’s Snape.
Michael: Well, yeah. And again – and I’ve mentioned this in previous chapters where the Half-Blood Prince comes up – but more this reread than ever I find my mind blown that I did not figure out that the Half-Blood Prince was Snape.
Kat: I know.
Michael: Because the book is like, “It’s Snape, it’s Snape, it’s Snape!”
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Eric: Yeah.
Michael: It’s so well done how she just writes it off in the narration, like Harry recalling that Snape recommended bezoars; so it’s so subtle, but at the same time it seems so obvious now.
Eric: Yeah.
Michael: Snape is very present in this chapter considering he only makes once very brief appearance.
Kat: Indeed.
Eric: Yeah.
Kat: I mean, he is kicking Hermione’s ass in the Potions classroom.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric:
Michael: What is this BS? Hermione is actually doing the assigned work! Harry is just pulling tricks. Slughorn even says, “This won’t even work all the time. You didn’t even do it right. Here’s ten points.”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Yeah.
Michael: “I just like your face.”
Eric: Yeah. Well, and I think we were talking about, earlier, the key to unraveling his memory, right? Which is the Lily thing, and he brings that up quite a bit in the class. He’s like, “You surely inherited your mother’s skill and intuitiveness for Potions! Ooh hoo hoo, ah ha ha, oho!”
Michael: “Oho!”
Eric: Whatever he says. “Oho, ho!”
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Is it Santa? Is he Santa?
Michael: Yes, he is.
Eric: He is definitely Santa.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: But yeah, he is very distracted by his personal pride and whatever. It doesn’t even say that Hermione succeeded, is my issue with the whole thing.
Kat: Yes, well, it says that nobody completed the assignment.
Eric: Right. I mean, but she clearly came the closest. But even though Gryffindor gets ten points out of this whole ordeal, it’s not… he doesn’t even look at her potion. He literally goes to everybody else in the entire class except for her because when he gets to Harry, who is second to last, he gets distracted.
Kat: Yep. Poor Hermione.
Michael: Stupid.
Eric: So Hermione… small violin playing for her…
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Harry did approach her, though, before class about approaching Slughorn. And he actually told Ron first which was a mistake because when he let slip to Hermione that he’s been talking to Ron, and Ron didn’t think it would be a terrible idea or very difficult at all, she said, “Oh, what does Won-Won think about this?” It gave her another opportunity to…
Kat: She’s very childish in this chapter.
Eric: A little bit.
Kat: No, not a little. A lot.
Eric: They’re on the mend. It’s going to get better.
Kat: I mean, that’s the thing. Hermione has the tendency to go… what’s the word…?
Eric: Overboard?
Kat: No, juvenile. A lot. And I know that they’re only sixteen, but…
Eric: Really?
Kat: She goes juvenile a lot. The way she reacts to situations and the way she treats people, it’s pretty juvenile sometimes.
Michael: Hmm. I was going to say…
Kat: Especially when you’ve known someone five and a half, six years…
Michael: That’s funny just because I was going to give her a pass on this one because I feel like she doesn’t do this a lot. She used to do this a lot more around Books 1 and 2.
Kat: Come on, she’s not talking to one of her best friends because of who he’s dating. If you love somebody, personally…
Eric: Well, I think it’s really absurd… oh, sorry, I’ll let you finish.
Kat: Okay, Kanye.
[Everybody laughs]
Kat: No, I just think that if you love somebody and they’re dating somebody else, you still want to be near that person. And I just think it’s a little juvenile of her to just cut him out, and then get pissed off at Harry when he even mentions his name? I don’t know, it just…
Eric: Well, okay, that part is a little…
Em: But at the same time I think she tried to stay around and keep it up for a while, and then with Ron and Lavender just getting increasingly more gooey and disgusting, she just couldn’t take it anymore and she snapped. That’s the way I look at it.
Michael: Yeah.
Eric: I think Harry is that connection, though. Harry is exactly how she stays connected to Ron, is by still being Harry’s friend because Harry is still being Ron’s friend. They’ve done this in the past where they know that this structure exists where… I think that’s exactly how Ron and Hermione are able to pull this off for so long; the whole not speaking to each other thing. But for Hermione and whether or not it’s juvenile, I think the thing is if Ron were dating someone else, then yeah, it would be a little juvenile, but Ron is just… it’s just kissing, it’s just physical…
Kat: Wait, you don’t know that.
Eric: Absolutely I know that!
Michael: Mhm, mhm.
Eric: Because of the events that perspire in this chapter and what follows, how there’s actually no substance to their relationship. Or over Christmas, when she gives him the necklace that says what, “My sweetheart” or “My beloved”? And he just completely laughs it off. It’s because that doesn’t exist.
[Kat laughs]
Eric: This fact that he might actually like Lavender as a person is way not in his vocal.
Kat: I think you’re giving Ron a little too much credit. I think he doesn’t like the necklace because it’s hideous and embarrassing. I don’t think…
Michael: See, I’m…
Eric: Well, he wouldn’t find it embarrassing if he liked her.
Michael: Yeah.
Kat: No, okay…
Eric: If he thought she was actually a nice girl who would cherish his wearing it, I’m sure he would’ve sucked it up and wore it.
Kat: So I’m going to call your girlfriend and tell her to get you a big, gold necklace that says “My sweetheart”…
[Em and Michael laugh]
Kat: … and you better wear that every effing day.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Every effing day because you love her and you’ve been with her for years.
Eric: I’m talking about…
Michael: Eric is like, “I’ve already got one and I’m wearing it right now.”
[Em and Kat laugh]
Eric: Yeah, I’ve already got one. I do actually wear it all day, thank you very much.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: No, Kat, what I’m saying is it’s only physical with Ron and Lavender, and that’s what Hermione is rightly guffawing about here and the fact that it is a joke; it’s a caricature of male and female relationships to do what they’re constantly doing. It’s a joke. It’s an absolute… it’s a grotesque depiction of boyfriend/girlfriend stuff to see them in the common room wrapped as one top of each other all the time and knowing that they’re not even getting very far and all that stuff. So it’s pretty ridiculous, I just think.
Michael: Yeah.
Eric: And so I don’t think it’s juvenile for Hermione to be upset about it. I think it’s actually just really ridiculous for Ron to be this caricature of…
Kat: But you don’t know what happens when Ron is not with Harry. Okay, this is stretching, but you don’t know that they don’t have intellectual conversations in the Gryffindor Common Room.
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: Yeah, I do. Yeah, I do.
Kat: No, you don’t know that! Because it’s not… no, you don’t.
Michael: Well, and see, but that… okay, so that… I think there’s truth to both sides of this, which is that Hermione is acting juvenile, but I think she’s justified in her juvenile behavior because as far as Ron and Lavender go… yeah, Hermione… like you said, Kat, Harry is not seeing what Ron and Lavender are up to. Hermione is not, either, so she has a very surface view of this relationship. And at the same time, I think Hermione going after Harry is understandable in this situation, too. Again, it might be juvenile that she’s taunting him about it, but Harry has been cheating all year and not doing the work himself. So it’s a double-edged issue here, I’d say.
Kat: She’s allowed to be mad at Harry about the work, but all he does is mention Ron’s name and she’s like, [makes nonsensical noises] and runs away.
[Em and Eric laugh]
Kat: That’s juvenile. Yeah, come one.
Eric: But she does give Harry good advice! She understands that Slughorn wanted to keep that memory from Dumbledore for a very good reason, and she urges caution when approaching Slughorn. She says that she doesn’t think it’ll be all that easy the way Ron did. She actually gives Harry… she actually responds to his question. She helps him out, saying, “You should probably be more careful about it.”
Michael: Yeah, she gives him the right…
Kat: No, I mean, that’s true, and I’m not discounting that. That’s entirely true, but… sorry, I just… I have no love for Hermione in this moment.
Eric: Well…
Michael: I do.
[Kat laughs]
Michael: But I’ve been in her position, so that’s why I…
Em: Same.
[Em and Michael laugh]
Kat: Wait, you had a friend that had to battle a Dark Lord and you had to tell him how to get a memory?
[Em laughs]
Michael: That is exactly what happened. I mean, yeah.
Eric: Hasn’t everybody, Kat?
[Michael laughs]
Kat: No. I guess I’m too old.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: I guess that’s a thing from the ’90s.
Eric: It was a ’90s thing.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Yeah. ’90s thing. Cool.
Michael: Like Casper.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: So we get this situation – as I mentioned earlier on – that is very, very reminiscent of the memory itself that Harry saw in the chapter previous, which is: He’s alone in class, it’s after class, Slughorn says, “Oh, you should probably go, you’ll be late for your class,” and he says, “I was wondering what you know about Horcruxes.” And Harry gives away a lot of stuff. He gives away that he has seen the memory. Slughorn guesses; that’s his first response is, “You’ve seen the memory. Dumbledore showed… well, then you know that I don’t know much further about them,” and this, that, and the other thing. He tries to defend himself, but…
Michael: Yeah, what was he thinking? Honestly. Like, “I’m just going to repeat everything Voldemort said, word for word, and surely he will tell me.”
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: It’s a good question. I like how similar those moments were, though. I love it.
Michael: No, I do, too.
Kat: Yeah.
Kat: Yeah. And I like that Harry even says that he felt like Voldemort when he was saying it. [shudders]
Eric and Michael: Yeah.
Michael: There’s a lovely… I think this is… and I know a lot of our listeners have very strong feelings about the movie, but I think the movie even pushes this even better because there’s visual comparisons to the scenes as well.
Kat: Yeah.
Michael: The way that the scene is shot with Harry asking Slughorn, they shoot it almost exactly like how they shoot the scene with Tom asking him, which is brilliant. But I…
Eric: Yeah, yeah. In terms of spooking him, too. In terms of spooking this man that twice in his life has been…
Michael: Yeah, it… [laughs]
Eric: … by extremely important people as students, he’s been asked the same question that ends up being the very… I want to say the… [laughs] I wanted to do a Back to the Future reference, like it’s the time-space continuum. It’s the whole origin of the universe by which everything else is built..
Michael: Ooh, I get that now. [laughs]
Eric: You would get that now because you’ve seen it. But no, the fact that this could happen twice to Slughorn is really chilling, I think.
Michael: Yeah, no…
Kat: Ooh.
Michael: Yes, Kat? What were you going to say?
Kat: No, you go. I can throw mine in any time.
Michael: Oh, no, I was just going to say what I think… the other thing that I love about how the movie does it – what I find interesting about how the movie does it – is that the movie shows when Harry asks, he actually gains some headway for a while. He actually starts to get Slughorn to butter up. But then he keeps going the same track that Voldemort did and that’s when he loses him.
Eric: Yeah.
Michael: In this, Slughorn gets it right away. He’s like, “Oh, hell, no‚” and bolts.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: And the reason I like that in the movie is because… and I think what the book is also trying to make clear here is that we still get these moments where Harry… the whole series does a really good job of having moments where Harry is like Voldemort.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: He behaves like Voldemort, he acts like Voldemort, and this is just, I guess, another… thinking about how for the first time reading this series, we’ve just been introduced to Horcruxes, at least the term. We’re about to be… in a few chapters, we’ll have it revealed. And Rowling is now working very hard. Again, she hasn’t been doing this really strongly since the end of Order of the Phoenix. In fact, she’s been trying to disconnect Voldemort and Harry for a lot of these chapters. This is the first chapter where she does that again, where she’s connecting Harry and Voldemort again in their behavior and they are both said to have the same kind of charming quality, very sociable. So I’ve always found that interesting that that connection is dropped at the end of Order, and just when we get information about Horcruxes, that connection starts to worm its way back into the narrative.
Eric: I think it’s because Harry is a Horcrux.
Michael: Harry is a Horcrux.
Kat: Spoilers!
Michael: Oh, hell, no.
Em: And the word choice!
Michael: Yes.
Em: The word choice in that sentence writes like, “Reminding himself irresistibly.” That’s just such an odd choice to be irresistibly similar.
Michael: Choice.
Kat: No, it’s so sexy. It’s so sexy. I love that that word is used.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Yeah, absolutely. We know Rowling chooses very carefully how she names characters, how she names spells and potions, and I think that’s a testament just to her writing talent. She doesn’t pick words out of nowhere. Irresistibly, like you said, and that’s an unusual word to pick in this instance. But the way that it connects them works brilliantly.
Eric: Moving slightly forward in the chapter, Hermione – bless her – has gone through the entire library…
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: … including the Restricted Section, which… is it said specifically as a prefect she’s just able to go in there now or…?
Michael: I think she probably just walks in and Madam Pince is like, “Eh‚” and…
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: “Well, she has read every other book, you see.”
Kat: They’re best friends, are you kidding?
Eric: “She’s read every other book three times. I can’t very well complain.”
Michael: “What am I going to do, say no?”
Eric: Say, “No, you must read one of those books for the fourth time.”
Kat: She’s probably so nice to Madam Pince that she just doesn’t care what she reads.
Eric and Michael: Yeah.
Eric: We do… there is some Madam Pince humor we do get which is pretty funny, clawing and all that around as she does. But the only mention to Horcruxes that Hermione was able to find was in a book called Magick Moste Evile.
Michael: I love it. “We’re going to talk about it by not talking about it.”
Kat and Eric: Yeah.
Eric: “Of the Horcruxes…” what is it? “Of the Horcruxes, the most evil we do not speak…” words to that effect.
Michael: Let’s see, where is it here? Oh, here it is: “All I could find was this in the introduction to Majick Moste Evile, listen: ‘Of the Horcrux, wickedest of magical inventions, we shall not speak nor give direction.’ I mean, why even mention it then?”
Kat: True.
Eric: [laughs] Yeah.
Michael: I do like that. It’s pretty funny.
Eric: No, it’s pretty good. Well, we learn later that Dumbledore specifically removed that subject from the library.
Kat: Well, he was trying to learn all about it, too, right? So…
Michael: He’s got all of the books on his special library card. He has them checked out for the next two years.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: So a little bit of a shining the readers on because eventually we will find out what they are, obviously. But in a book called Magick Moste Evile, which is said to contain terrible potions, which I…
Kat: Yeah, first off, you have to look at the person who checks that out and be like, “What are you doing?”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: “Just a bit of advanced research.”
Michael: “Studying.”
Kat: “Don’t worry, not going to poison anybody or anything.”
Em: Particularly considering her mood right now.
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: You know that each of these potions is far worse than the Bat-Bogey Hex…
Kat: Oh, God.
Eric: … which I just think is the most terrifying thing you could do to somebody.
Michael: No, in a way even though it’s played off for humor that Hermione can’t find it, it does make Horcruxes more creepy when you think about it.
Kat: Oh, yeah.
Eric: Yeah, that this book called Magick Moste Evile won’t even talk about them.
Michael: And when you add on that Rowling apparently, she claims – and I’m assuming this is true because she knows everything about her world – she says that she knows how a Horcrux is made, what the requirements are, and she won’t say it. She said the one time she explained it to somebody on her publishing team, they almost puked. [laughs] So not knowing is kind of even more enjoyable in this instance, as far as the enjoyment of the book goes.
Kat: Yeah. [shudders] I don’t want to think about it.
Michael: Creepy.
Eric: I’m glad that she’s smart enough not to tell.
Michael: I hope that is one of the secrets she does take to her grave. Go ahead, Jo. Take it. That’s fine.
Eric and Kat: Yeah, tell us everything else.
Eric: But you know that somebody is going to try it out there if she ever reveals it.
Michael: If she reveals it somebody is going to give it a shot.
Eric: Yeah, absolutely somebody will try it. 100%. Uh-huh. Yeah, so…
Michael: That’s terrifying.
Eric: It is terrifying. But as soon as I read that, the first day that came out when she said that, I was like, “Yes, you’re a genius for not ever saying that.” Well, let’s go on to a slightly happier subject, which is Apparition.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Is it though? Is it though?
Eric: Is it a happier subject? Yeah! You get this old Wilkie Twycross character who keeps reciting the three D’s. The first impression of him, and this is Jo’s writing at its finest…
Michael: Yeah, it is.
Eric: … stating how thin and wispy he is, and Harry thinks that maybe that’s either from Apparating all the time…
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: … that he has sort of lost pieces along the way, or whether you just need to be that kind of person to best be…
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: … to ideally Apparate, to be thin and not really carrying a lot of weight.
Kat: “Oddly colorless with transparent eyelashes, wispy hair, and an insubstantial air.”
Eric: Yeah. There you go.
Michael: That sounds to me like he’s over-Apparated.
[Eric laughs]
Michael: That doesn’t sound…
Eric: I was going to say – let’s divide among ourselves – what do we think it is? Do we think that you need to be skinny, kind of a thin whisp of a person, to be able to best do it? Or do you think he’s actually missed some parts along the way? [laughs]
Kat: I think he’s over-Apparated.
Em: Yeah, same.
Kat: If that’s his job…
Michael: Yeah. I think the thing that gets me about the description is that he’s slightly transparent. Like… that’s creepy.
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Kat: No, it says “oddly colorless, with transparent eyelashes.”
Michael: That’s weird.
Eric: Still, what does that mean? Can you see through his eyelashes? [laughs]
Michael: [laughs] That’s weird. That’s not normal.
Kat: I mean, blonde people… you can probably see through my eyelashes.
Michael: Unless he’s a Metamorphmagus and chooses to look that way.
Kat: Oh, maybe.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Mmm… well, the reason I asked too as a preface to this discussion point is because if he is Apparating all the time, and we know that he’s this certified wizard who over the course of the next twelve weeks is going to be teaching these students, you’d think he’d do a better job.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Because we’ve all been through these classes at least – Em, you can speak for yourself too about this – but we’ve been through those classes where a teacher is so excited that they’ve come up with this acronym…
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: … or these really exciting zing words/buzz words that are going to allow you to remember the technique.
Michael: God.
Eric: And whether or not they’re effective, these three D’s – “destination, determination, deliberation” – are an exciting part of the chapter when they are mentioned. However, the chapter, I think, goes ahead like three weeks. And it turns out that through these classes – these Apparition classes – Wilkie Twycross is still going on about the three D’s…
[Em laughs]
Eric: And this is apparently all he’s got.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: He does not really go past this level of explanation for teaching these kids, and my big question that comes from this really is Harry, for instance, has Side-Along Apparated with Dumbledore, and you get something that clearly isn’t properly explained in the movies. But in the books you get Apparition as this squeezing, very unpleasant… Jo does this all the time, like even with Portkeys your navel gets pulled up over your head…
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Really kind of cool, unique feeling. And I feel like if that is real, if that is reality for these people who are all Apparating and experiencing the same feeling, there should be words to it. There should actually be… Wilkie should be going around explaining to people sort of the origins, why it feels that way that it does, and preparing people for that. Because how it feels has to be tied in to what actually happens to you when you do it.
Kat: I imagine that it feels like what Ernie Macmillan is doing…
[Em and Michael laugh]
Kat: … how it says that he’s contemplating his hoop so hard that “his face had turned pink, and it looked as though he was straining to lay a Quaffle-sized egg.”
Michael: Right.
[Em laughs]
Kat: I imagine that’s what it feels like.
Eric: Yeah, like all of you squeezing.
Michael: Well, what you mentioned, Eric, about Harry Side-Along [Apparating] with Dumbledore before, that’s what I think Wilkie should be doing – give them all a taste of Side-Along Apparition at least to start.
Eric: That’s a really good point.
Michael: They’re not going to understand it if they haven’t even experienced it at all. And the assumption from what Harry observes is that nobody really… especially because when Harry tells people that he did, they all are like, “Oh my God! What was it like?”
Eric: Oh, flocking to him, right. He’s a subject. He can’t even go to bed.
Michael: Yeah, because they all want to know.
[Em laughs]
Eric: That one time because everybody in the whole world is coming to him and asking.
Kat: Well, I wonder… why doesn’t anybody… isn’t it Susan Bones who…
Michael: Loses her leg!
Em: Oh my God.
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: Oh my gosh!
Kat: They should be bothering her, too.
Michael: Well yeah, because she’s got a way cooler story. She left her leg behind.
[Em laughs]
Kat: I know! How dope is that? I don’t want to lose my leg.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, and I love how that’s addressed, too. Wilkie’s answer to that is, “Try harder. That wasn’t…”
Eric: Yeah. “Your determination is lacking.”
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Uh… hello?
[Em, Eric, and Michael laugh]
Michael: Like in the middle of her Apparating, she just thought about her homework and therefore, her leg was left behind.
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: Yeah, yeah. Okay.
Michael: That’s terrifying. I’m kind of with Harry. Even though he’s just idly mentioning it so he doesn’t have to talk about it anymore, I’m totally with Harry where he’s just like, “I prefer flying.” [laughs]
[Eric and Em laugh]
Kat: Come on, who would not want to?
Eric: Yeah, it’s pretty good where he tells Ron that he’s not putting high stakes on actually completing the class successfully.
Kat: You know what? I would work my ass off because there’s no way I wouldn’t want to be able to Apparate. Come on!
Eric: But that’s kind of the point. You can’t really work your ass [off]. If all the teacher’s doing is shouting these three words at you… I actually looked up deliberation…
[Michael laughs]
Eric: … and I don’t mean because I couldn’t guess at what that word is, but I thought there might be more insight. After I was reading this chapter and it’s like the fifteenth time he’s shouted “Deliberation!”…
[Michael laughs]
Eric: … I just had to look it up because maybe the etymology of the word will allow me to better understand it. No, the definition on Google is: “Long and careful consideration…”
Kat: Or discussion, and it means to consider carefully.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Like come on, I’m sorry. That’s more than enough for me, but I’m a Ravenclaw, so…
Eric: No, that doesn’t say anything about the actual process of physically squeezing yourself out of reality and into reality somewhere else.
Kat: But you don’t do the squeezing; the magic does the squeezing.
Eric: The magic does the squeezing. [laughs]
Kat: You only have to focus on the destination and your deliberation, and you have to be determined to get there.
Eric: They all mean the same thing, these three D’s.
Kat: No, they don’t!
Eric: Yes.
Kat: Uh-uh.
Eric: Really if it’s just about where you’re going, as you’re saying, then destination is more important than deliberation and determination.
Kat: No, you have to have all three. You have to choose very carefully where you want to you. You have to be determined to get there, and then you have to go there.
Eric: Deliberately, you have to be determined. It also turns out in Susan Bones’s case, you have to determinely be deliberate…
[Michael laughs]
Eric: … and deliberate determinately towards your destination.
Kat: Leave your leg.
Eric: That’s what I’m saying. This is completely pointless. Words are not going to help you in this situation.
Michael: I think…
Kat: I’m sorry, that would be enough for me.
Em: Twycross goes through the three steps and explains each word. He says that the destination is like… you focus on your destination. He says that your determination is to occupy the space “to every particle of your body.”
Kat: Mhm.
Em: So that is why Susan Bones wasn’t determined enough, because she wasn’t focusing on every particle of her body. And deliberation, “feeling your way into nothingness.” So yeah, the magic is doing the work, but you’re feeling the way into that liminal space before you reappear.
Michael: As you… wow, you guys.
Em: He does go through.
Michael: Em is a way better teacher than Wilkie Twycross. [laughs]
[Em and Kat laugh]
Michael: Because the way she described it makes me feel like I could actually try it.
Eric: Yeah. Instead of jumping to the D’s all the time…
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: … that does appear once. I would probably reiterate that if I were him.
Michael: That was…
Kat: You know what I do think is funny is that you have to spin on the spot.
[Em laughs]
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Kat: I do think that’s funny.
Eric: I expected like fifty broken ankles the first time.
[Em laughs]
Michael: I totally feel like if I were practicing under that direction, I would do exactly what Ernie Macmillan did, where I would do my pirouette in the air…
[Em laughs]
Michael: … and actually think that I did it. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah. And hop into the…
[Em and Kat laugh]
Michael: Because the way he’s describing it… Ernie actually genuinely thinks he did it. So God bless his heart.
[Em and Kat laugh]
Michael: I mean, why wouldn’t he based on what Wilkie’s described? It makes sense that he compensated by doing the wrong thing. To me this feels like so many trainings I’ve been to at work where it’s just like, “All right, here’s a quick rundown; we only have an hour. Now try it.” [laughs] Except… because I love too how Harry looks around and when Wilkie’s like, “All right, give it a shot,” all the students are like, “What?! We have to do it now? We don’t even know what to do!”
Em: Yeah.
Michael: Because I’ve definitely been in that situation. That is a terrible situation.
Em: I think it’s comparable to driver’s ed.
Michael: Yes, it is. That’s a very good comparison.
Em: I think… and it’s funny because when you’re being taught to drive, you have adults who have been obviously on the road for forever and they forget what it’s like to be behind the wheel for the first time.
Eric and Michael: Yes.
Em: And they’re trying to explain, “Well, you just do this. I don’t understand how you’re not understanding me.”
Michael: Yes!
Eric: Right.
Em: And obviously as a 17-year-old or whatever, you’re like, “I don’t know how to do this thing!”
Michael: [laughs] Yeah.
Kat: Yeah, the only major difference there is that you grow up watching people drive.
Em: Yeah, that’s true.
Michael: Well, but wizards, you would assume, would grow up watching people Apparate, and some wizard children might even have experienced Side-Along Apparition.
Eric: Well, that’s kind of a…
Em: Unless you’re a Muggle-born.
Michael: Unless you’re a Muggle-born.
Eric: That’s true. Yeah, that’s a bit unfair.
Michael: But as we know, Muggle-borns have distinct disadvantages in everything. It’s not just Hogwarts.
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: Yeah. There is a distinct advantage to being [wizard-born], because people with wizard parents would probably have been more likely to Side-Along Apparate, too. And you would start to see a clear group of people in the whole room who’ve been to the Nether or traveled through it before.
Michael: Yeah.
Eric: That they have like a familiarity for this non-place, where you are for a split second before you…
Kat: “Into non-being, which is to say, everything.”
Michael: Oh-ho-ho!
[Em and Eric laugh]
Michael: And that was a good comparison though with driver’s ed. Because I actually remember there were…
Eric: Yeah, oh yeah.
Em: Yeah.
Eric: The first five minutes I spent in a car alone for the first time after getting my license…
Em: Yeah.
Eric: … it was the first time I was alone alone. You learn so much.
Michael: So much.
Kat: It was amazing!
Eric: Yeah.
Em: Because you don’t have someone yelling at you saying, “Just do this!”
Michael: No, I had that moment when Harry turned around and looked. Because I recognize that feeling, that feeling you get in class settings when the teacher tells you to do something and everybody starts looking around and trying to feel out who in the room knows what to do and who doesn’t, and they’re looking to follow somebody. Because that happened in driver’s ed to me where they took us out to a giant parking lot, and the first thing the teacher asked us – none of us even had our temporary permits yet – and he was like, “So how many of you have driven before?” And I was standing there not raising my hand because I was like, “I haven’t driven because that would be illegal.”
[Eric laughs]
Michael: And all the other kids in class raised their hand… [laughs]
Eric: It was a trick question… trick question.
Em: Yeah.
Michael: And I felt like the only person who didn’t know what I was doing.
Eric: I’m sure the teacher was then like, “Oh right, you’ve all backed the cars down the driveways, right?”
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Yep.
Eric: Right? Just that once for your parents?
Kat: Yeah, ten feet down the driveway.
Michael: Em, I want you… I have no idea what I would do in the Wizarding world, but Em, I want you to become an instructor for Apparition.
[Em laughs]
Michael: Because you… you’re boss at it.
Em: Well, maybe. [laughs]
Michael: Apply for that at the Ministry.
Em: I’ve spent way too much time thinking about how it works and how it’s comparible to teleportation and all of this stuff, so…
Michael: God.
Em: … bit too much thought into it. [laughs]
Michael: Good. Well, at least you have a set career.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Eric: You’re going to be Wilkie’s replacement.
[Em laughs]
Michael: Career options are limited in the wizarding world, so I say go for it.
Eric: Yeah, that’s true.
Em: It’s true.
Kat: Indeed, indeed.
Eric: So I think he could be a better teacher, summarizing that point. I like Michael’s idea that he should have Side-Along Apparated everybody first so that he could…
Michael: Something.
Eric: Because I feel like a familiarity with the feeling and the sensation would help you achieve it.
Michael: Yeah.
Em: Yeah, so you don’t have Ernie thinking that he’s just pirouetted.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Yeah!
Em: Because obviously that’s not the same feeling.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Another option would have been more teachers and having little small groups…
Em and Michael: Yeah.
Kat: … to like brainstorm.
Eric: It’s weird because the heads of houses are there.
Michael: Yeah. They’re just there to corral everybody.
Eric: Yeah, presumably they can all Apparate, but they’re there to, as you said, corral everybody.
Kat: And yell at Malfoy.
Eric: And yell at Malfoy.
Michael: And put legs back on.
Eric: I’m glad you brought that up. So this is huge here. During this lesson Harry sneaks over because he sees that Malfoy is arguing with Goyle.
Kat: Crabbe.
Eric: Oh… with Crabbe.
Michael: [laughs] To-may-to, to-mah-to.
Eric: To-may-to, to-mah-to. He’s arguing with Crabbe, and Crabbe… when Harry gets over there, Draco says, “I don’t know how much longer it will take. You and Goyle just do as you’re told.” What we don’t know now is that presumably they already have their defenses in place, whereby Malfoy goes to the Room of Requirement, disappearing off the Marauder’s Map, and Crabbe and Goyle are running around as girls.
[Kat laughs]
Michael: Yeah. “Suck it up and woman up, man!”
[Em and Kat laugh]
Eric: They’re probably… he’s probably asking Malfoy, “How much longer do I have to keep going out as a girl? It’s weird, doesn’t feel right.”
[Michael laughs]
Kat: “I don’t like the pantyhose!”
Eric: Yeah.
Em: Where are they getting the clothes?
Michael: They must be…
Eric: Any number of…
Kat: The laundry, right?
Michael: Yeah, like Hermione stole from the laundry for Chamber of Secrets.
Em: Yeah, I suppose. [laughs]
Eric: It’s one of the oddest realizations in the entire series and what I’m almost most interested about, just because it comes out of nowhere and it’s never…
[Em laughs]
Michael: I’m so sorry, Emily asking that question just made me think of Malfoy shopping in Diagon Alley with Crabbe and Goyle for girls’ clothes.
[Em, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Eric: With Crabbe and Goyle for girls clothes, yeah. “You’re going to do this because the Dark Lord is bidding this.”
Kat: “I spent forty dollars on this sweater, dammit. You’re going to wear it.”
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Em: And not just girls’ clothes, but eleven-year-old girls’ clothes. Seriously.
[Em and Michael laugh]
Michael: Yeah, this is a pretty elaborate plan.
Eric: Yeah.
Michael: Which girls are they changing into? Are they changing into girls who are actually at Hogwarts right now?
Kat: I think it’s Muggle girls, right?
Michael: Oh, did they reveal that?
Eric: Wouldn’t they just go get a bunch of Muggle girls’ hair?
Kat: I feel like it’s Muggle girl hair, yeah.
Michael: That is so funny.
Eric: It’s just the weirdest thing that never gets addressed, so… that’s happening now.
Michael: Write a fan fic about that, somebody. Write a fan fic.
Eric: That’s happening now, and that’s going on, and Harry begins – at this point, following the lesson – pulling out the Map, and he doesn’t remember that once you’re in the Room of Requirement, you’re off the Map. But he ends up really trying to figure out where Malfoy is going, and he can’t tail him because life for Harry is just too busy to actually be able to follow Malfoy everywhere he goes. He’s got Quidditch practice, he’s got all sorts of other stuff, so really until Saturday morning, which is Ron’s birthday…
Kat: March 1!
Eric: March 1. Harry spends a great deal of his time following Malfoy. But then March 1 rolls around, and Ron gets a really good punch in to Harry. Which… it’s a punch that still hurts while I read it. It’s still…
Michael: In the ear!
Eric: It’s just like, “Man!” You don’t expect… it’s in the ear!
Michael: Yeah, that would really throw you for a loop.
Eric: You don’t expect it. I just summarized it up for timing, but…
Michael: What a testament to their friendship that Harry doesn’t just punch him back. [laughs]
Eric: Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, he goes on the defensive, but he realizes there’s this line. Ron’s real self would be embarrassed if it were him going on about this.
Michael: Yeah.
Eric: So Harry totally sees the humanity of it all and is just like, “Oh, this is flawed. I’m not going to be angry at you.”
Kat: Yeah, the one time Harry doesn’t act like a prat.
[Em laughs]
Eric: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, he gets him off to Slughorn’s, and Slughorn…
Michael: Ruining Ron’s relationship with Lavender on the way!
[Em, Eric, and Michael laugh]
Eric: Yeah! Oh, man.
Kat: I just love the part where he’s like, “Is she hiding? Is he hiding her from me, Harry? Where is she? I don’t see her! He must be hiding her.”
Em: And Slughorn plays along, and he’s like, “You look so handsome.”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Yeah, Slughorn plays along almost to the point like he’s seen this before.
Kat: I bet he has, I bet he has.
Michael: “Many a day at Hogwarts, just another day…”
Eric: What I love about it is that he says that, “Were the love potions in date, because they get stronger the longer they’re in the box.” [laughs] And these are clearly… he had half a box of these chocolate cauldrons, one of which would probably have done the trick when they were in date, and now that he ate half a box and that they’re at least three – or maybe closer to two and a half – months old, Ron has this situation. But Harry gets to use his… he does learn something about potions, as it turns out! He knows about bezoars now, and he runs and gets Ron one, but Ron’s worries are, as we learn, far, far from over, unfortunately. But yeah, this whole… I like how… I mean, it’s a tailspin, right? Because Ron goes from being drugged, Harry eventually realizes what has happened, which is a clever Harry moment, one, to the fact that they uncork this bottle of oak-matured mead, which had been meant to be going to Dumbledore, but “Oh, what the headmaster doesn’t drink he can’t miss!” Right?
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: And eventually… I mean, actually, as the chapter ends, Ron is gasping for life, so… pretty terrifying.
Michael: Yeah, the chapter actually ends with the possibility that Ron could be dead.
Em: Not just gasping, but limp and still.
Michael: Yeah. He could be dead, by the way it’s written.
Kat: I remember being like, “Oh my God! I have to keep reading.”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Which is like, “It’s such a good thing that the next page is only a page away!”
Michael: That’s not the part where you go, “Well, that’s enough for tonight.”
Em: See, I have the American version and the UK version, and in the American version, you’ve got it directly on the next page. But in the UK version, you have to turn it to start reading again.
[Kat gasps]
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Em: And I remember a split second of actual terror, like “Do I want to turn this page? Is Ron dead? I don’t know!”
Eric: Yeah, Chapter 19 is “Ron’s Funeral.”
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Yeah, no, that’s how it is when Snape goes “Avada Kedavra!” in the US edition. You have to turn the page, and it’s like, “Ahh! Wait, wait, wait. Wake up from the dream.” Yeah. Scary.
Michael: Yeah, no, well, and it’s another great… again, Snape is so present in this chapter even though he’s only physically present once, but Harry remembers that Snape told him that on his first few days in school, about the bezoar. So Snape saved Ron’s life, I guess, you could technically say, in this instance.
Eric: But Harry finally had an inkling. Harry was finally intuitive about potions!
Michael: 2/2!
[Kat laughs]
Eric: He did it! He did it, guys.
Michael: Yeah, this one time. Yeah, he did a good… well done. Well done, Harry, yeah. And it is… what you were saying, Eric, about how that quick shift in tone where we’re laughing at Ron being drugged, and then at the end it is like, “Oh my God, Ron is dead.” I know a lot of our… and we’ve talked about this throughout the chapter discussions, but I know a lot of our listeners are split on their feelings of Half-Blood because of that. Because the chapters constantly do that in this book.
Kat: I love that about this book.
Em: Yeah, same.
Kat: It’s so good.
Michael: I think it works really well. Em, what are your thoughts on that? Because we get a lot of our listeners’ strong feelings about the tonal shifts in Half-Blood.
Em: I really like Half-Blood Prince, and I actually really love that tonal shift, like you say. Because I think every time a new movie was coming out, they were like, “Oh, it’s so much darker. We’re going the darkest you can possibly get.” But whereas when you have Half-Blood Prince the actual book – and I think the movie does it pretty well – you have this sense of “there is dark, but there is comparative light to all of the dark,” so you can emphasize the dark more by how light some of the sections are. And that’s why you get so shocked by Ron, is because you’ve just come off this high, and it’s straight into dark. It becomes so much more influential, and you can get more emphasis. I don’t know, that’s just how I feel.
Michael: Yeah. No, that’s a great way to put it. I think that’s a great way to unlock why Rowling chose to do this. Because I see… of course, Rowling has professed her love for Agatha Christie, and listeners, if you haven’t, pick yourself up an Agatha Christie. They’re really good, they’re not just like the factory churned-out mysteries. She knew what she was doing. And Agatha Christie mysteries are very much like… Half-Blood Prince is probably a good comparison in writing style because Agatha Christie was full of… she had an amazing sense of humor. And her amazing sense of humor is, like Em just unlocked here, was what made her mysteries so dark, is because humanity goes to such dark places in Agatha Christie’s novels, but there’s a lot of really rich humor in those books. And I think that might just be what works so well here because I personally feel that Half-Blood Prince actually has some of the most unnerving moments in the series.
Em: Oh, absolutely.
Kat: Oh, by far, yeah.
Eric: I wouldn’t… I don’t know. Because I was going to say, as my response, that this book doesn’t get near as dark as Book 5 when Harry hates everybody and everything. So as long as Harry is mildly in a capacity to enjoy life, I can enjoy a book about him, which is why I love this book, and I don’t love Book 5.
[Em and Michael laugh]
Michael: Because Harry is in a good mood for some of the time.
Eric: Yeah, if anything can happen to him and the people that he loves, that’s fine. As long as he’s generally not a snot, then…
Kat: Oh my God, we went through this. He had to go through the emo stage.
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: No, no, no, nobody’s saying he didn’t have to. I’m saying, “Now that that snottiness is over, he…”
Kat: He wasn’t a snot.
Eric: Okay, well, anyway.
Michael: See, I guess maybe that’s just a personal thing because I find the revelation and the concept of Horcruxes to be one of the darkest things Rowling came up with. And I…
Eric: I mean, I assumed it was something. It’s got to be something terrible, right? He’s the darkest evil wizard ever.
Michael: Well, and I guess it’s just that I think with a lot of fiction, there’s plenty of fiction out there – juvenile and teen fiction – where the dark thing is revealed, and it’s very stereotypical. She took it a step further, I think, than most juvenile and teen fiction writers normally would do.
Eric: What this book succeeds in, really, I think, is at its stride when it’s building up the old memories and kind of painting a portrait of Voldemort, basically of defining how the darkest wizard ever came to be. That’s where this book succeeds. Although there is quite a lot of humor.
Michael: And I think – what Em said – that’s why, though, that it succeeds so well, is because with those immediate shifts in tone…
Eric: Right, because you’ve got this huge relationship book. This is the relationship book.
Michael: Well, and yeah, I think it hits Harry in the narrative, especially by the end of the book, when Dumbledore gives his very impassioned speech to Harry. But I think that idea that Harry is going through these trivial moments of teenage life that are very typical and expected, and then I think he frequently finds himself weighing that against his ultimate task that is so huge. Like, “I have to go kill somebody.”
Eric: Yeah, this book feels a lot lighter than Books 5 or 7 to me.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.
Eric: I mean, obviously with notable exceptions being Sectumsempra, which is just like, “Oh my God, what have I done? Oh, God.”
Michael: I mean, notwithstanding that if she had written, I think, one that was more tonally comparable to Order of the Phoenix, I think that would have been harder for readers to stomach, especially the target audience she was going for. Maybe not for all of the readers, but definitely her target.
Eric: Honestly, due to its humor, this is the book that saved Harry for me, I think. Because I was so put off by Book 5 because it was so not like this. It wasn’t fun like this is. This book is very, very, very fun.
Michael: Yeah, I felt the same way. I didn’t realize until you had said that a few episodes ago, Eric, but when I realized and thought back about it, I had a falling out with Harry Potter around the Order of the Phoenix era.
Kat: Ugh.
Michael: I wasn’t crazy into it.
Eric: Yeah, I can’t track a specific [moment] that I remember falling out, but I know that after reading Book 6, I was way back in the game.
Michael: Yeah, me too.
Eric: Because it reminded me of why I loved Books 1-4. There was just something about it; it’s non-quantifiable. But I felt it again, and then I… part of it is her writing and how brilliant the whole backstory and everything is and how the pieces fit together, how Dumbledore leads Harry and the whole Voldemort thing and is able to surmise everything that Voldemort ever did even though he doesn’t have all the pieces perfectly. It was just like I was meant to… it was like, “This is awesome.” So Book 6 for me is really just all about the… it’s hard for me. I agree that it’s dark, but I always forget about that about this book because it’s so light and so brilliant at times.
Michael: I’m going to hold…
Em: That’s interesting to me.
Michael: Sorry, Em, I just wanted to say that I’m going to hold your explanation up on a pedestal forever because that was the best explanation I’ve heard. But go ahead, Em.
Em: Well, I was just going to say that I find it interesting, Eric, that you think it’s so comparable, so wonderful, because I was actually thinking how contrasting they are in terms of the darkness. You go from these really juvenile… the villain is a giant snake and a werewolf, really classic scary things to Half-Blood Prince is really the capacity of human darkness, like Sectumsempra, like Horcruxes, like even in theory you have these things that come up that are just “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe people are using magic in this way” rather than “There’s magic that’s bad?” I don’t know, I think that’s the way that Half-Blood Prince feels so much darker to me because it’s what wizards are using magic for. And the capacity of human evil is just…
Kat: And that’s why Order of the Phoenix is so important in the series, because you learn… there’s a lot of set-up for that feeling in Order of the Phoenix.
Michael: Oh, yeah. I can definitely see that. Especially with the Ministry and the Department of Mysteries. I usually compare Half-Blood totally to… and this is also partly a bias on my part but Prisoner.
Em: Absolutely. Yeah.
Michael: I think the inner demons of various characters are explored a lot, the past is explored a lot, and the Dementors, I think, are very comparable to a lot of things in this book.
Eric: Books 3 and 6 are my favorites.
Em: Which is interesting because it’s Sirius’s book and Snape’s book. What does that say about the character comparison?
Eric: There you go.
Michael: That’s very true.
Eric: No, but for instance, too, in a previous chapter when Rufus Scrimgeour comes over, right? And asks Harry to be… and all Harry needs to do is show him his hand – his scarred hand from the entire previous year when was tortured by Umbridge, which we had to read about grievously for 38 chapters – and we know exactly where Harry is at for this entire subplot of Harry is going to blow off the Ministry now, for the rest of this book, is all because we’ve already read all the crap that they’ve put him through. And it’s just a nice footnote. A nice reference. Like, “Oh, yeah, that happened.”
[Em laughs]
Eric: We won’t easily, quickly, soon forget that. But we don’t have to read about it in this book because it already happened in the previous book. So I think because of those reasons, this book it’s a bit lighter than [Book] 5 because you can just throw it back to “Oh, look at this terrible stuff he’s already been through,” and you don’t need to feature that in this book. This book can be more focused on the mystery of who Voldemort is.
Kat: And Ron dying, almost.
Eric: And Ron nearly dying.
Michael: No, because I think what Em said brings that out perfectly, because I mean, there is humor to be sure. There’s pretty great humor in Order of the Phoenix, but I think it’s not quite as… the ships aren’t as extreme as they are in Half-Blood, so I think that is what makes it, for me as a reader, more effective. I think I should probably be speaking on a more personal level. But yeah, I think that’s perhaps what makes the tonal shift work for me.
Eric: Well, I am going to bring a close to our chapter discussion. Thus ends “Birthday Surprises.”
Michael: Surprise! Ron’s dead.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: So another surprise for you, listeners: a Podcast Question of the Week. Or maybe not a surprise.
Michael: Oh, I see what you did there.
Em: A surprise, but a nice surprise.
Eric: A surprise, Ron’s dead.
Michael: Or is it? Yes, it’s a surprise. Ron’s dead, and we’re going to think about that with the podcast question. We’re going to bring it down a notch because this chapter has been entirely too enjoyable. So my podcast question for you, listeners, this week is: As Rowing revealed, she considered killing Ron off, and at this chapter’s conclusion, Ron comes as close to death as he ever would. Would this have been the place to kill Ron? If not here, where in the series would this decision have best served the narrative? When selecting a point for this event, be sure to consider the effects on the characters and the storyline as a whole. And if you so feel the urge, listeners, feel free to write Ron’s eulogy. Please do. We will read at least one next week if you write them. But yes, to answer that question, just head over to alohomora.mugglenet.com and submit your answers for the Podcast Question of the Week.
Eric: I can just see the epitaph on his grave: “Beloved Won-Won.”
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: That’s awesome. Well, just want to thank you, Em, so much for joining us. We hope you had a really great time.
Em: Oh, yeah, I did. Thanks so much for having me on. It was the highlight of the week, really.
Michael: Well, of course, because now she knows what to apply for at the Ministry. She’s… we’ve set out her Ministry career path… she’s going to be making so much money.
Eric: Yeah, that makes two of us right? My Ministry career path is the wand-weigher at the security desk, right?
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: I know what I would do in the wizarding world. Because Jo roped me in. Well, if you would like to be on the show and also find out what your Ministry job would be, go to the “Be on the Show” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. If you have a set of Apple headphones… hey, Em is using Apple headphones, aren’t you?
Em: Yeah, I sure am.
Eric: So they sound and look as sporty as Em looks right now.
[Em, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Eric: You are all set. No fancy equipment is needed, just basic recording stuff. Part of the process is that you’ll sent us a sample, so we’ll make sure it’s good, don’t worry. Just visit our page, and while you’re there, download a ringtone for free.
Kat: And in the meantime, if you just want to keep in touch with us, you can find us on Twitter at @AlohomoraMN. That’s three O’s, two A’s, by the way.
Eric: How many M’s?
Kat: Uhh, two.
Eric: How many N’s?
Kat: One.
Eric: How many L’s?
Kat: One.
Eric: Okay. What about A?
Kat: Two. I already said A.
Michael: Oh, aww man. I just wanted to make sure.
Kat: Trick question. All right. facebook.com/openthedumbledore. That’s two O’s: Open the Dumbledore.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Sorry, okay. On Tumblr at mnalohomorapodcast.
Eric: Actually, you have facebook.com spelled out, so that’s four.
Kat: Oh, shut up!
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Don’t forget, our phone number is 206-GO-ALBUS – that’s 206-462-5287 – and you an always leave us an audioBoom. It’s free; all you need is an Internet connection and a microphone or Apple headset. I swear to God we’re not paid. They’re not paying us, guys. I swear to God.
Eric: Yeah, that’s not even a bullet point. You just threw in the second Apple reference.
Kat: You’re right, I did. I just threw it in.
Eric: I think they’re paying you, actually.
Kat: Maybe they are. But… so there’s a little green button on the right-hand menu on our webpage. Just click it, keep your message under 60 seconds, send us a question, a comment, a story, Ron’s eulogy. Oh, send us Ron’s eulogy over audioBoom, and we’ll play it.
Michael: Oh, beautiful.
Kat: Put some music together – some nice organ music – make it really cool, and we’ll play them on the show.
Eric: We need to dedicate ten minutes to that next episode.
Michael: Yeah, if you played “Lily’s Theme” under that, dang, the tears would flow so many ways.
Eric: No tips, no pointers.
[Em, Eric, and Michael laugh]
Kat: Now you have to do that, Michael.
Michael: Now I have to do it. Now I’m obligated. But also, listeners, make sure to check out our Alohomora! store, where we have lots of products, including House shirts, shirts and products named after all of our inside jokes, like the Desk!Pig, Mandrake Liberation Front, Minerva Is My Homegirl, and so many, many more. I’m afraid we’re not selling spiked Cauldron Cakes at the moment. But so many other things to entice your potential romantic love.
Eric: And of course, don’t forget, there’s the smartphone app. It is available all over the Muggle world. If you can’t get it, you’re magic.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: What was the pause for?
Eric: I wanted to give it proper dramatic gravitas. If you can’t get it, you’re magic. It’s available on this side of the pond and the other. Prices vary. Of course, we’re still talking about the smartphone app. Transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and more can all be found on this smartphone app. For more information, visit our website.
[Show music begins]
Eric: Ah, this has been a blast, I will talk to you all later. I am Eric Scull.
Michael: I’m Michael Harle.
Kat: And I’m Kat Miller. Thank you for listening to Episode 136 of Alohomora!
Eric: Open the Dumbledore!
[Show music continues]
Eric: Emily, are you in the doc? Yes, you are. Okay. The secrets are revealed: Every episode of Alohomora! that you’ve ever listened to has just been one bloody bullet point after another.
[Michael laughs]
Em: It’s fascinating to look at! I’m actually really interested.
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: Cool, cool, cool.
Michael: She was like, [as Em] “Oh my God, I thought you guys made this all up on the spot!”
[Em and Michael laugh]
Eric: Nope, nope. [whispers] Shh, don’t tell anybody!
[Em and Michael laugh]
Kat: Yeah.
Michael: [as Em] “You just memorize the chapters, right?” [back to normal voice] No.
Kat: We’ve only mentioned Google Docs on almost every episode ever.
Em: Yeah, I know.
Michael: [laughs] We have.
Em: I’ve never heard about it. [laughs]
Eric: That’s true. Because one of us… To screw with the other person, one of us puts something funny in there.
Michael: Yes. We do that often.
Kat: Yeah. Mostly Eric does that.
Michael: That’s very true.
Eric: No! I’m taking over from predecessors [who] did it all the time.
Kat: Ah.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: That’s true.
Eric: Open the Dumbledore.
[Em, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Kat: Wait, that’s it?!
Eric: [as Ron] “Is she in there, Harry? Is she in there?”
[Em and Michael laugh]
Michael: That was quite a pause.
Eric: [as Harry] “I don’t know, Ron. Let’s see. Let’s open the Dumbledore and find out!”
[Em, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Michael: Open the Dumbledore, spelled… [laughs] How many O’s?
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Two.
Eric: Open the Dumbledore…
Michael: How many E’s?
Eric: Two O’s, four E’s, one U.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Good call, good call.
Michael: Woo! Goodness. Okay.
[Kat makes buzzing sounds with her lips and laughs]
