Transcript – Episode 120

[Show music begins]

Eric Scull: This is Episode 120 of Alohomora! for January 17, 2015.

[Show music continues]

Eric: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another fantastic episode of Alohomora! I’m Eric Scull.

Kristen Keys: I’m Kristen Keys.

Kat Miller: And I’m Kat Miller. And our special fan guest today is Courtney Pickett. Hello, Courtney.

Courtney Pickett: Hello.

Kat: Thank you so much or joining us. Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself – your House and all that jazzy jazz.

Courtney: Well, I’m a Gryffindor, and there is not much to say about that except I like being a Gryffindor.

Kat: Good.

[Eric and Kat laugh]

Courtney: I thought I was going to be a Hufflepuff.

Eric: Gryffindor!

Kat: Okay.

Courtney: And I live in Orlando, so I do get to go visit the Wizarding World a couple [of] times a year, which I love.

Kat: That’s… the three of us, oddly enough, are going to be there in two weeks! We’re very excited!

Courtney: Oh, really? For the Harry Potter event?

Kat and Kristen: Yep.

Courtney: I’ve not made it to one of those yet.

Kat: Oh, it’s good fun. Well, thank you again for joining us, and we want to remind our listeners that, this week, we are going to be discussing Half-Blood Prince Chapter 2, entitled “Spinner’s End.”

Eric: That’s right. On last week’s episode, we began Half-Blood Prince with Chapter 1, “The Other Minister,” and now, we have some of those comments from that discussion, which we’re going to bring up. Now, I have to say, there was a wonderful turnout. As always, the listeners do not disappoint; we had over one hundred comments…

Kat: Damn.

Eric: … on the main site, all provoking discussions.

Kristen: Awesome.

Eric: I know, I know.

Kat: It’s funny because I love it when we have that many comments, but it also is so hard when you are the person who’s doing recap because you have to read every single one.

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: Not complaining because they’re always amazing, but it’s a lot to take in, especially because the theories are all really amazing, and all the comments are thought-provoking and good. It’s difficult.

Eric: Completely agree. So this time, in gathering the comments for this episode, I focused on, honestly, some things that we either overlooked or didn’t spend too much time on.

Kat: Cool.

Eric: So this is going to be a big info catch-up here, due to our dutiful listeners. So first comment comes from Snatch the Snitch, who says,

“About the ‘World War’ thing…”

Last week, we questioned if Voldemort wanted to take over the world. Snatch the Snitch says,

“I always viewed the war at this point as an internal conflict of the UK. Sort of like a civil war. I’m not sure other wizarding countries would get involved until Voldemort posed a direct threat to them. The counter-argument is that it’s obvious he poses a threat to the world, but we’ve seen similar situations throughout human history where countries don’t intervene at convenient times. Also, Voldemort has been seen by the Ministry, but he’s still working largely in deception. People in the UK know he’s back, but has he openly declared war on the world at large? Voldemort still works behind the scenes while infiltrating the Ministry, and when he does take over how many people really know? It’s possible he or Thicknesse had other countries convinced things were [still] ok[ay] at that point.”

So that is a nice comment. Thank you, Snatch the Snitch, for bringing that up. So last week, we questioned, I think it’s Fudge [who] says to the Muggle Prime Minister that they are at war. And because that aspect of it, the war scene from the government side, is not particularly focused on in these books. The question is, “How big does this war get, and how does it escalate?” Because, even in Book 7, when it’s full-out war mode for Harry and everybody else, the question is, “Does the war become worldwide, or is this just the UK?”

Kat: It seems super centralized to northern Scotland, right in that 100 miles where Hogwarts is. It’s a nice round circle around Hogwarts. [laughs]

Eric: Well, and London, though, to be fair – where the Ministry of Magic is.

Kat: Well, I suppose, yeah. But not a whole lot, really… I mean… no, I guess that’s true. I guess there’s stuff happening in London, but yeah, you definitely don’t hear about him attacking anywhere in Wales or France or anything like that, so maybe he just has his sights set really small. Just on the UK.

Eric: I think what we had said last week, too, is that it’s probably, he wants to get rid of his nemesis first.

Kat: Ah, yes, Mr. Potter.

Eric: Mr. Potter. So that’s a possibility. Anyway, the next comment comes from EnoughEffingOwls…

[Eric and Kat laugh]

Eric: … who says,

“I […] wanted to bring up something I think you guys glossed over a [little] bit in the chapter discussion. When […] Fudge is waiting for Scrimgeour to arrive, the portrait tells him [that] Scrimgeour is just finishing up a letter to Dumbledore. ‘”I wish him luck,” said Fudge, sounding bitter for the first time. “I’ve been writing to Dumbledore twice a day for the past fortnight, but he won’t budge. If he’d just been prepared to persuade the boy, I might still be…Well maybe Scrimgeour will have more success.”‘ Knowing what comes later in the books, we can assume this is a reference to the [M]inistry’s attempt to get Harry’s [outspoken] support. With Harry on their side […] as a ‘mascot,’ as Harry later quips, they would have a much easier time regaining the trust of the public. From this line we know [that] this attempt has been going on long before Scrimgeour’s oh, so awkward arrival at the Burrow. On a first read through, however, this line is much more vague and mysterious and goes mostly unnoticed.”

Kat: Yeah, it’s weird that… I guess I never really thought of Fudge as the type who would have come up with this plan. I always thought that it was a Rufus thing.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, I think that the plan is in action, whether it was his idea or not, but if he’s been writing to Dumbledore for weeks that certainly precedes his departure as Minister [of] Magic. So it seems like the Ministry is trying to recruit Harry way, way early because doesn’t…? I mean, the whole mascot thing doesn’t even happen in this book, right? It’s the next book at the Burrow when Scrimgeour arrives that he tries to persuade Harry. Am I wrong?

Kat: No, you’re right. You’re right.

Eric: Okay. So the plan… I mean, it raised the question for me – this comment and the fact that this happened at this early stage in the books – that Dumbledore is really there acting as wall between the Ministry and Harry. Somehow it’s Dumbledore’s issue that the Minister [of] Magic wants Harry on their side.

Kat: And that’s why all of sudden that it happens almost right after Dumbledore is dead. Spoiler.

[Kat and Kristen laugh]

Eric: So clearly, Dumbledore, through words or actions, is preventing this sort of conversation from ever taking place with Harry. It’s interesting that it’s going on a year before we hear about it. Even though we hear about it at the beginning of the sixth book.

Kat: And if Fudge is the one [who] came up with it because I find that hard to believe.

Courtney: Yeah, me too.

Kristen: Yeah. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. Well, that’s debatable. I still think it’s probably somebody else in his office.

Kat: Oh, right, that makes more sense.

Kristen: That’s true, yeah.

Eric: I mean, somebody was just like, “You need this boy.” And he’s like, “Oh, he doesn’t really like me.”

[Kat and Kristen laugh]

Eric: “Well, you need him, sir. Go ask.” And so he does. But okay, next comment comes from Slytherin Knight, another wonderful username from our wonderful listeners.

“I was wondering what everyone thought about how Fudge, [whom] most [people] regard as a coward, would use the term [‘]war[‘] when describing the return of Voldemort.”

Ooh, it’s another war one.

“While I consider it a ‘civil war’ of sorts, and I think most readers do as well, you could also call it an insurgency or terrorist action. I mean, that’s what the Death Eaters are for the most part – a group of terrorists, right? – and since this is the second time the wizarding world has faced this threat, one would think that the Ministry of Magic/Dumbledore would allow its defenders ([i.e., ]Aurors/Order/Dumbledore’s Army) to fight back using all means at their disposal, much like Crouch Sr did during the ‘First Blood War,’ taking the restrictions off the Ministry’s Aurors. We see the Light/good guys/Harry and friends, etc use mainly only non-lethal spells when fighting for their lives. I know its still a book away, but I think [in] the scene in which Lupin confronts Harry about using the Disarming Charm in the flight from Privet Drive, Harry seems to equate using lethal spells as murder itself. What about Bombarda, [the Reductor Curse], [… the Severing Charm]? Those spells, while not instantly lethal, at least would injure or maim those they hit, and they would even the playing field slightly against the Death Eaters. I mean, for the most part, the main combatants on the Light Side are teenagers, not adults/fully qualified witches or wizards.

This book, and Order of the Phoenix, are supposed to be the turning point in the series when we see the books get darker and more serious, […] yet we don’t really see the Light Side really take the fight to the Death Eaters, at least until the Battle of Hogwarts/the Hogwarts Resistance in Deathly Hallows.”

So I really like this comment because going into Book 6, I mean, you have the introduction in Chapter 1 where Fudge says [that] they’re at war, and this question or this comment brings up this notion that the light side is not playing rough enough, and it’s something that I think I want to keep in mind as I am reading about war events in this book and the next.

Kat: I think, too, that part of it is strategy. I mean, why bring the war and bring a battle on before you have to? I mean, it says here “[…] yet we don’t really see the light side really take the fight to the Death Eaters.” Right, because they have other things to do. Why put the emphasis on fighting when you can be smarter and more covert, even?

Courtney: Yeah, there’s no point in splitting up the fight if you don’t have to, if you can get stuff done in the background before taking it to them.

Kat: Exactly.

Eric: Get more supporters, which I think both sides are doing, to be fair, but…

Kat: Yeah, and I think, too, that Dumbledore probably has – I feel that he’s the general. He’s saying, “Don’t attack, don’t do this, don’t do that, don’t do that,” because he knows in his mind that there’s no point in having this fight because there'[re] still Horcruxes in the world.

Eric: That is a good point because this book is all about Dumbledore’s gradual realization – although he passes it off as being speculation to Harry – about the fact that he’s discovering why and how Voldemort is still alive. And that is essential before the actual fight breaks out to reduce Voldemort to mortality. So there'[re] still a few errands that need to be run before the war can happen, and that’s this book.

Courtney: Dumbledore is going to stall as long as possible.

Eric: And most of them. Yeah, interesting. And final comment of the recap comes from thebandthatneedsnointroduction. [laughs]

Kat: Nice.

Eric: They say,

“By the way, according to Pottermore, the portrait in the Muggle Prime Minister’s office…”

… which is the title of last week’s episode, “The Coughing Canvas”…

“… is of Ulick Gamp, the first [ever] Minister [of] Magic.”

I actually wanted to thank thebandthatneedsnointroduction. I actually went on Pottermore and looked this up, and there’s a wonderful list. It’s actually in the Moment in Book 5 when you go into the Ministry of Magic. It’s Book 5, Chapter 7, Moment 1, you’re in the atrium, and that is where you get this writing from J.K. Rowling of all of the Prime Ministers that have ever been. And there’s a whole…

Kat: It’s a huge list. It’s crazy.

Eric: … crazy, huge list. There’s fascinating information like their term of office is usually a maximum of seven years, and they’re encouraged to seek election of someone else, but what I wanted to bring up here is that Pottermore does confirm it is a portrait of Ulick Gamp that hangs in the Muggle Prime Minister’s study in number ten, Downing Street – and that’s the location of last week’s chapter – and there’s an additional information from Pottermore: “No Muggle Prime Minister has ever set foot in the Ministry of Magic, for reasons most succinctly summed up by ex-Minister Dugald McPhail,” who served from 1858 to 1865. Dugald has this to say, as to why the Muggle Prime Minsters had never been there: “Their puir wee braines couldnae cope wi’ it.”

[Everyone laughs]

Kat: Nice.

Eric: So. That was a blast looking that up. [laughs] But… so we actually know who that portrait is of and where, specifically, the Minister was last week.

Kat: That’s pretty awesome.

Kristen: Yeah, I never knew that. Now we’re going to go into the Podcast Question of the Week responses.

Eric: Ooh!

Kristen: Let me give you a quick reminder what the question was for last week:

“As we discussed in this chapter with Fudge’s visit to the Muggle Prime Minister, there seems to be an established relationship between the Muggle and wizarding governments. But what is this relationship? How/when did it begin? Are the wizards always more in control than the Muggles know? Or is this a special circumstance because of the emerging war with Voldemort?”

Another comment from Slytherin Knight from the main site says,

“I honestly think that J.K. [Rowling] did a disservice to the outside world in the Harry Potter series. To me she made it seem like the Muggle government were completely unaware of a vast majority of the events in the wizarding world even though both societies occupy the same world. To me, Fudge comes off as condescending to the Prime Minister, treating him like a school child when explaining that the magical world exists. Also, Fudge really confirms himself a coward in the fact that he isn’t even able to say [‘]Voldemort[‘] when informing the Prime Minister that Voldemort had returned. You would think that this would send alarm bells ringing through the Prime Minister’s head if the leader (or former leader) of the magical world can’t even say a terrorist’s name[…] I seem to remember a line that Fudge says, telling the Prime Minister that the Minister of Magic reve[a]ls themselves to the Prime Minister of the day, which lends credence that the Ministry has had some sort of relationship with the Prime Minister since its founding.”

Eric: I don’t know that it’s a disservice to the magical world. I take offense to this comment, actually.

Kat: Yeah, I disagree with it quite a bit, actually, too.

Courtney: Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah, no, I agree.

[Kat laughs]

Eric: We did discuss last week about Fudge and how he’s a coward and how he gets what he deserves – or doesn’t – but in that he’s removed from office, and I don’t disagree that it’s cowardly not to be able to say a terrorist’s name, but I don’t see how this is J.K. Rowling’s fault that… I mean, we’re supposed to believe it’s suspension of disbelief that the wizarding world is good enough that the Muggles have never seen giants roaming.

Kat: Right, and obviously, Fudge does come off as condescending to the Prime Minister, treating him like a school child because well, I mean, he has absolutely no idea.

Eric: Fudge does know things that the Muggle Prime Minister knows nothing about.

Kat: Right, I don’t think it’s condescension. I think it’s knowledge. [laughs]

Eric: [laughs] He knows more.

Kat: He legitimately knows more about what he’s talking about, yeah.

Eric: About what’s going on in the world.

Kat: Exactly. And personally, I’m okay with the Muggle government being completely unaware about the events happening in the wizarding world. Not me personally because I’d like to be a wizard…

[Courtney and Kristen laugh]

Kat: … but in general, I think it’s probably okay that we don’t know about what’s going on.

Courtney and Eric: Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah, I agree.

Kat: It’s probably okay.

Eric: Oh, and that’s part of the key, I think, in any reader, to believe that these events could really be happening, that this world could exist alongside our own, and we just don’t know about it. It’s a joke. It’s supposed to be… It’s fun. It’s fantasy. It’s like, “Oh yeah, they clearly are just Memory Charming…

[Kristen laughs]

Eric: … the people who, by happenstance, are actually seeing these giants, but giants are totally a thing, and unicorns really exist and all sorts of stuff.

Kat: Yeah, every single time that it’s foggy outside, I’m like, “Oh, breeding season!”

[Kristen laughs]

Eric: Dementors must be breeding!

Courtney: That’s what I was thinking today.

Eric: Bow chicka wow wow.

Kat: Was it foggy where you are today?

Courtney: Yeah.

Kat: Nice.

[Eric and Kristen laugh]

Kat: Well, Dementors were getting busy.

Eric: But was it misty? [laughs]

Courtney: Just had to eat some chocolate.

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: Oh, good. The Dementors must be around me a lot, then.

[Kat and Kristen laugh]

Kristen: All right. Next we’re going to read a comment from thebandthatneedsnointroduction. They say,

“We know from Pottermore that in 1782, Porteous Knatchbull (MoM) was called in by the Muggle PM, Lord North, to help with King George III’s mental instability. Other Ministers of Magic after this had positive or negative interactions with Muggle leadership, including Evangeline Orpington, who was a personal friend of Queen Victoria. It seems that prior to the International Statute of Secrecy, there was broad interaction between wizarding society and Muggle society. Once the Statute was in place, it restricted interaction to the heads of government only. The purpose was [for] wizards and muggles [to] live in parallel societies without interference. Wizards have more power at their disposal but only use it on Muggles when necessary to keep their magical society a secret. The emerging war with Voldemort brings more interaction because of the spill-over into [M]uggle affairs. In times of peace, the Muggle Prime Minister may only need that initial visit from the Minister of Magic on his first day in office.”

Eric: This is a very wonderful answer to the… I think it hit on all of the topics.

Kristen: I agree.

Eric: And did so with info directly from Pottermore, so…

Kat: Yeah. This person is clearly a dictionary…

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: … or someone who is very good at Wikipedia.

Eric: Pardon me, sir. Are you a dictionary?

[Kristen laughs]

Eric: Yeah. No, it’s really cool information, and this is…

Kat: Oh!

Eric: “Oh!” what?

Kat: This is clearly Hermione.

[Courtney and Kristen laugh]

Eric: There you go. That’s a nice, much more polite way of saying what you were just saying.

Kat: Yes, it is. That’s true. I meant no offense.

Eric: I want to say that back in history when the lines were more blurred, speaks toward when people adopted superstitions as reality, like the curing by leaches and witchcraft and all sorts of things that people really openly believed in that have been eclipsed by modern technology and the industrial revolution and things, so since all of that stuff happens, we don’t really believe in sorcery or witchcraft, but back then, conveniently, before the Statute of Secrecy all of it was out in the open. It was perfectly normal for you to see somebody brewing a potion.

Kat: Well, and that was the late 17th century too, so the world was very diffrent, very different.

Kristen: I really need to get on that Pottermore more. [laughs]

Courtney: Me too.

Eric: It seems really interesting. With these excerpts, it’s just like, “Oh my God, so much information.”

Kristen: I was so fascinated by this comment. I was like, “This is really cool. I didn’t know all this.”

Kat: Yeah, the Half-Blood Prince information, while still very minimal, is super interesting stuff. I’ve always been an advocate of Pottermore; I love it. I always have, and I’m looking forward to the more stuff that they’re going to add. Because there'[re] only like ten Moments in Half-Blood Prince total, right?

Kristen: Oh, okay.

Eric: When I was looking up the Minister list, they made me unlock it. I had the link, but even the direct link said, “This is locked, so you have to go the Moment.” So I went to the Moment, and I’m in the atrium, and I’m clicking on like, “There’s something above the fireplace. What’s that? Oh, it’s just Floo powder. Oh, there’s something on the ground. What’s that? Oh, it’s Galleons. Oh, wait, what’s the sign? Oh, yes, thankfully, I’ve unlocked the Ministers.” It was funny. Because there'[re] a lot of collectibles now that you can add to your trunk, which aren’t what you’re looking for.

Kat: Well, that’s how you buy stuff and make potions and all that.

Eric: Wait, can you read the books that you buy?

Kat: Umm, no.

Kristen: I don’t think so.

Eric: Not yet? I wanted them to do that because that would be awesome.

Kat: I mean, that would be a lot of new content to write. Jo has a few other things going on.

[Courtney, Kat, and Kristen laugh]

Kristen: All right, and our last comment comes from bent-winged-snidget from the main site, and they say,

“I know it makes sense for the governments to have been allied for a long time, but for some reason I think that the establish[ment] of the relationship was recent. What could have happened is [that] after World War II and Grindelwald, the magical government realized that [M]uggles and wizards are actually a lot more intertwined than previously, and in order to keep all citizens safe, the [M]uggle minister and government ha[ve] to be aware of all [of] the magical risks happening. Therefore, I think that the Prime Minister being notified of Voldemort’s return was a direct consequence of what had happened with the previous Dark [w]izard. As for [M]uggles being more ignorant, I think that the Ministry of Magic does regard itself as higher and more influential than the [M]uggle ministry, though with a less biased and prejudiced government (maybe under Kingsley [Shacklebolt]), I think a healthier relationship is possible.”

Eric: I really like this comment too. It’s interesting to think that the wizarding world does see itself as higher because if you’re thinking about it, the Muggle world has a greater population. So it’s like the little kid is looking and viewing itself as the taller kid on the playground.

Kat: David and Goliath.

Eric: Yeah. But I also like the idea that they have come to this arrangement under a time of stress, even though Pottermore disproves it and says that they’ve been friends since the 17th century or whatever. I like the idea that these more formal relations were established recently as a result of the groups growing together, both in population but being forced together during a war when the territory is stake from external forces.

Kat: Yeah, because that portrait, obviously, has not been hanging in that exact spot since whenever the first…

Eric: Well, how old is 10 Downing Street? I want to know how long that has been the official government site for…

Kat: Good idea. Let’s look. It’s over 300 years old, according to the Wiki.

Courtney: Oh.

Eric: Well, there you go. So JKR actually found a building where… well…

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: It says construction started in 1682 and was completed in 1684.

Courtney: Oh, wow.

Eric: There you go. So that building that the Prime Minister still holds office in is that old.

Courtney: Oh, that’s cool, yeah.

Kat: Wow. So that portrait legitimately could have been there the entire time. Wow.

Kristen: Crazy!

Kat: Cool.

Eric: I like the idea also that I know we answered this before, but because it’s the first ever Minister [of] Magic, it’s like he never left. He held such an important position that he is memorialized or immortalized in being the spokesperson, always announcing emergency visits and everything. It’s cool. A great honor.

Kat: Well, that’s like how George Washington is hung up all over the place.

Courtney: That’s true.

Kat: Same type of deal.

Eric: Or on our dollar bill.

Kat: Right, he is on the dollar bill.

Kristen: [laughs] Thank you, all, for the great comments, and we look forward to hearing more from our future Podcast Questions of the Week.

Kat: And with that, let’s do this. It’s the chapter time.

[Half-Blood Prince Chapter 2 intro begins]

[Sound of crickets]

Narcissa: Chapter 2.

[Sound of knocking on a door]

Narcissa: “Spinner’s End.”

[Sound of door opening]

[Half-Blood Prince Chapter 2 intro ends]

Kat: Okay, so here we are at Chapter 2 of Half-Blood Prince. So this is one of those chapters where not a lot happens. We get a lot of information. Evil and good in the forms of Bellatrix and Narcissa descend upon Severus Snape and discuss the plans Lord Voldemort has for Draco Malfoy.

Eric: Wait, which one’s evil and which one’s good?

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: Well, it’s pretty clear by the distinctions in here where it talks about how light Narcissa is compared to her “dark, heavy-lidded sister.”

Eric: Oh, okay.

Kat: And we’ve talked about Narcissa a few times. She’s not an awful woman. She’s not a great woman, but she’s not… She does have redeeming qualities.

Kristen: She loves her son.

Eric: Yeah, these two sisters are very… It’s fun to play them off each other, to see them work in this… which we really only get to see in this chapter. Ever. Yet another chapter that does not have Harry in it.

Kristen: Oh, that’s true.

Kat: Right. Yeah, there'[re] only a couple of those in the whole series, so…

Eric: Yeah, but this is two in a row.

Kat: I know.

Kat and Kristen: Crazy!

Kat: Crazy! So I just wanted to start this very briefly with… We’re going to bring up Pottermore again. We got a new bit of information about Cokeworth, which is the town that seemingly this chapter takes place… Well, not seemingly. It definitely takes place in because Jo said so. There’s not a whole lot of information on it, but I’m going to read it. It’s interesting and fun. It says,

“Cokeworth is a fictional town in the English Midlands where Harry spends a night at the Railview Hotel with his aunt, uncle and cousin Dudley. Cokeworth’s name is supposed to suggest an industrial town, and to evoke associations of hard work and grime.”

Which I guess is why Snape lives there.

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: Anyway.

“Although it is never made explicit in the books, Cokeworth is the place where Petunia and Lily Evans and Severus Snape all grew up. When Aunt Petunia and Uncle Vernon are trying to evade the letters from Hogwarts, they travel to Cokeworth. Perhaps Uncle Vernon has a vague idea that Cokeworth is [so] distinctly unmagical, the letters will not follow them there. He ought to have known better; after all Petunia’s sister, Lily, turned into a talented witch in Cokeworth. It is therefore Cokeworth that Bellatrix and Narcissa visit at the start of Half-Blood Prince, where they visit Snape at his parents’ old house. Cokeworth has a river running through it, eviden[ce] of at least one large factory in the long chimney overlooking Snape’s house, and many small streets full of workers’ houses.”

So not a lot of information, but it’s fun to know that this actually really is where Snape grew up. Although it’s funny because I read this earlier and didn’t catch it. It’s Snape’s parents’ old house, but is it Snape’s current house?

Eric: You don’t think he just arrives to torture Wormtail, and then he leaves?

[Courtney and Kristen laugh]

Kat: I don’t know. I always assumed that he lived at Hogwarts.

Courtney: Well, during the school year, but…

Kristen: Maybe it’s summer?

Courtney: … I’m sure on his off-time, he goes back there because it would remind him of Lily.

Kat: Maybe, but I mean, McGonagall lives at Hogwarts.

Eric: Oh, man, that would be bitter. [laughs] That would be terrible.

Kat: Yeah, it would be… That’s what I’m saying!

Eric: You go home, and you’re reminded of Lily all the time…

Kristen: Yeah. All by myself.

Eric: … because you pass a playground where you used to… [sighs]

Kat: That would be terrible. But yeah, maybe it’s just been Wormtail’s home for a while.

Eric: Yeah, we don’t know what Wormtail has been doing. It was weird to see him in this chapter because we don’t know. He’s been completely absent [from] the last book and a half.

Kat: That’s true.

Kristen: I guess during the summertime, maybe Snape has got to watch over him while he can. [laughs]

Kat: I mean, this seems like the perfect little town for him to be running around as a rat [in].

Eric: Yeah, that’s true.

Kat: And I did, before we move on, want to take a very quick moment of silence for the fox that Bellatrix so cruelly just murders.

Eric: Aww. Bellatrix Lestrange is why we can’t have nice things.

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: Yep. It’s true. She’s a witch with a B. In this chapter… So the two of them are talking, and we get this conversation between the two of them, and Bellatrix is trying to stop Narcissa from whatever she’s doing. Obviously, we find out later that it’s going to talk to Snape. However, Narcissa says, “But the Dark Lord trusts him.” And Bella says, “Well, I think the Dark Lord is mistaken.”

[Eric laughs]

Kat: And smart woman, first off – smarter than she looks – but what do we think led her to not trust Snape? I mean, obviously, we learn some of the things later in the chapter, but what do you think started it for her? Do you really just think that it’s just about the loyalty and all of that, or is there something…? Is there an instinct there that she’s picking up on? Because Snape is really good.

Eric: I think it’s obsession. She is obsessed with Voldemort, and she is always at his beck and call. She’s practically the first one to show up at meetings, I guess, and Snape shows up a little late. Over time, it bothers her.

Kristen: I agree. It’s his lateness.

Courtney: I think she definitely looks down upon anyone who is not as enthusiastic as she is.

Eric: Yeah. And she needs to be reminded time and time again that there are times when patience and carefully measured responses are more advantageous to any side of a war versus her tendency to shoot first, ask questions later.

Kat: Yeah, she’s a very impulsive woman.

Eric: Very impulsive. And I think that her disarming in this chapter by Snape, while masterful, really plays on that tendency, and Snape is able to reason with her by just explaining, “Hey, here’s how we’re better off because I took a little bit longer to show up.”

Kat: It’s funny that you bring that up because if you read through that, and you really think about it, Snape is 1,000% telling the truth the entire time.

Eric: Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. He’s in a very good position to be in. Well, except for the part where he’s playing Dumbledore for a fool.

Kat: Well, right, but I mean, isn’t he? I mean, probably at some point, there was a part where before he switched over, there was some bit of him that was playing Dumbledore a little bit. No?

Eric: Well, it’s only described in the Pensieve when we see Snape and Lily or whatever, right? Just how profound the impact was on Snape of Lily’s death, and so it’s interesting that in this chapter, we hear from Snape talking about when he first got involved at Hogwarts, and I’m not sure if the timeline stacks up or whatever, but he claims to have been a spy for Voldemort who got the appointment at Hogwarts, but in reality, Dumbledore caught Snape overhearing the prophecy and installed him at Hogwarts as a countermeasure so he could have him on his own side. So I think there’s some questioning to be done even way back when, when Snape says he first went to Hogwarts under Voldemort’s orders. It’s a little unclear whose side he was really on even then, but I have a feeling that it was Dumbledore’s the whole time.

Kat: Yeah. I do feel like there could have been some overlap in there somewhere. Okay, so they finally reach Snape’s house, this creepy little dirty, dingy house. I actually think what they did in the movie for this seems pretty accurate to me.

Eric: Certainly not the house of a prince.

[Kristen laughs]

Eric: Or is it?

[Eric and Kristen laugh]

Kat: And they sit down, and they bust out the elf-made wine, which I found very funny.

[Eric and Kristen laugh]

Kat: Is it house-elf-made wine? Because…

Courtney: That’s what they’ve assumed, is that it’s house-elf-made wine.

Kat: Okay. That’s interesting.

Courtney: I think it’s a direct tie-in to the second book since we really meet Dobby in the second chapter, that it’s a little nod to that.

Kat: Aww, circle theory.

Eric: That’s really cool. That’s really cool. Also, I can imagine somebody like Winky really excelling at a vineyard.

[Courtney, Kat, and Kristen laugh]

Courtney: No, she wouln’t.

Eric: Smashing grapes.

Courtney: She’d be passed out on the floor all the time.

[Courtney and Kristen laugh]

Kat: It’s just funny because when I hear “elf-made wine,” I instantly think of Lothlórien or the Woodland Realm, whatever so…

Courtney: Oh, me too.

Kat: Definitely not house-elf. I don’t drink, but I don’t know if I would drink that wine. It seems a little sketchy to me.

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: So we have this really awesome audioBoom on this thing that I actually never really picked up on before, so good point. Let’s give it a listen.

[Audio]: Hi, everyone. This is Melissa from Ontario, Canada, calling with something I noticed in the chapter “Spinner’s End,” page 34 of the Canadian UK hardcover edition: “‘That was not my fault!’ said Bellatrix, flushing. ‘The Dark Lord has, in the past, entrusted me with his most precious – if Lucius hadn’t -” Of course, on your first read, you think nothing of it. We think she’s referring to a fumbled plot at the Ministry. But what we know is JKR ends juicy sentences like this because they hide clues. In this case, Voldemort’s most precious… what? My thought? She’s referring to the Cup. And this is a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it clue to the location of one of the Horcrux[es]. The line she ends […] with – “if Lucius hadn’t” – can also be double read. At first read, I thought she was referring to the mess-up at the Ministry, but what is she was well aware that Voldemort entrusted two of his most precious items to the Malfoy family? If Malfoy hadn’t thrown away the diary on a careless plot, would Bella be more trusted than she is in spite of what happened at the Ministry, or is the fact that Voldemort knows what Lucius did transferring distrust onto the second Black family member he entrusted? Love to hear your thoughts. Thanks, guys. Bye!

Eric: I love this comment. And this question.

Kat: It’s good, huh? It’s great.

Eric: Yeah. It’s really good. We’re getting into this moment where, during this whole discussion, it’s super important to pay attention to every word, but don’t for a minute thnk that these words only have one possible meaning, and this really great because I never… I mean, I certainly didn’t pick up on this possibility that Bellatrix is hinting at the Cup. I assume she… you could read it as being two ways. I mean, 1) they’re talking about the incident at the Ministry, who’s fault it was, and Bella is just talking about how all of Voldemort’s best missions are reserved for her or whatever – best tasks – or [2)] she does know and is referencing the fact that something very special was handed to her.

Kat: Yeah, and this is Jo here, so I think we’re going to assume the latter?

[Kristen laughs]

Eric: But still, I mean, for the innocent person, the person who doesn’t know the events of Book 7, you could just say, “Oh, yeah, Bella is tooting her own horn because she thinks she’s the Dark Lord’s favorite.” Yeah, So that’s why it works. I really like that comment.

Kat: Do you think that Snape picked up on it at all?

Eric: No.

Kat: Because I mean, he knows about the Horcruxes.

Eric: Does he?

Kat: I’m pretty sure he does.

Courtney: It doesn’t say he makes a reaction, though.

Kat: I know, but I mean, that doesn’t mean anything.

Eric: No, I’m going to go ahead and say no, Snape doesn’t know about the Horcruxes. Because Dumbledore doesn’t know about the Horcruxes, and Snape…

Kat: Dumbledore knows about them because he’s wearing…

Eric: He has a guess. He has…

Kat: He is wearing a ring on his hand.

Eric: He has a theory, and that’s it.

Kat: No. He destroyed the ring already. He knows about Horcruxes.

Eric: He did destroy the ring, and Snape references it in this chapter.

Kat: Right, so he knows about Horcruxes because he destroyed the ring.

Eric: But still, there’s all that speculation in the Pensieve.

Kat: No, the speculation is about how many there are, not that they exist.

Courtney: Well, in the Pensieve scene, does he actually mention the Horcruxes at all, like in Deathly Hallows, or does that come up later in their next conversation?

Kat: Depends on which conversation you’re referring to.

Courtney: I don’t have Deathly Hallows…

Kat: Because they are many of them.

Courtney: [laughs] Yes. The one where he actually tells Snape about the Horcruxes, and Harry has to die. Isn’t that after the whole ring incident?

Kat: I don’t know. That could be movie canon.

Courtney: Yeah, I’m not sure. I’m trying to remember what order they played them in the book, but I don’t have my seventh copy with me.

Kat: I don’t know. I feel like a small part of me… I think obviously Snape reports back to Dumbledore on this conversation, and…

Eric: Oh, clearly. And about the Unbreakable Vow.

Kat: Oh, absolutely, but I…

[Courtney and Eric laugh]

Kat: I mean, I feel like that bit of information… I mean…

Kristen: He could read Bellatrix’s mind too. I mean…

Kat: Right. Which is a whole other discussion.

Kristen: Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

Kat: Legilimency. We’ll get there. I don’t know, I just think that he picked up on something. Maybe he didn’t know exactly what it was, but I think that he thought that Bellatrix was hinting at something. I don’t know. Snape is a complicated dude, complicated dude.

Eric: That he is.

Kat: And speaking of complicated dudes, let’s talk about Lucius for a minute, yeah? So Bellatrix tries to lay the blame on Lucius for what happened in the Ministry of Magic.

Eric: Man, right in front of Narcissa.

Kat: I know. It’s so mean.

Eric: In front of her.

Kat: That’s your sister, fool. I don’t know. But really, whose fault was that? Because… this is bad. I feel like it was Harry’s fault.

[Eric and Kristen laugh]

Kat: No, for real. Wasn’t it Harry’s fault that everything happens?

Eric: Well, what was? That everything happened?

Kat: I mean, just everything. I mean…

Eric: Well, Voldemort is the one [who] put the image into his mind.

Kristen: That’s true.

Kat: And Harry is the one who believed it.

Courtney: He’s not going to…

Eric: Harry believed it, yeah, but he wouldn’t have an image to believe if it weren’t for Voldemort.

Courtney: And Voldemort can’t blame Harry for it. If he’s going to get mad at someone, he’s going to have to do it to someone on his side because he obviously can’t get to Harry, so he’s going to have to place the blame somewhere else.

Kat: Right, but I mean, the blame on the… I guess I’m… who’s to blame for the entire incident?

Eric: Well, Harry smashed the prophecy.

Kristen: I was going to say, yeah, “Once the prophecy was smashed…”

Kat: Not on purpose, though.

Kristen: I feel it’s Lucius’s fault that it was smashed, and so the ending could be his fault, but I say, altogether, it’s Harry’s fault.

Kat: Remind me exactly what happened with the prophecy. Who had it when it broke?

Kristen: Neville, right? Or Neville was supposed to catch it.

Eric: I think Lucius does get the blame because the end game was clearly to retrieve that prophecy.

Kristen: And he was the leader of ir, so he has to take the fall.

Eric: He was the leader of, yeah, the gang who was out there, and honestly, Voldemort… that was a very tactically significant mission because Voldemort wanted that advantage of knowing exactly what the prophecy said. And now Voldemort will never, ever know exactly what the prophecy says, and there will always be this doubt in his mind and about whether or not he can ever truly defeat Harry Potter, and so Voldemort’s upset over never being able to know for sure has turned into this rage against Lucius.

Kat: Raa! You do the scream better than I do.

Eric: Oh, no, nyaa!

Kat: Yeah, that’s the one. [laughs]

Eric: I forgot about that.

Kat: Yeah, the rage scream.

Kristen: Aand if Bellatrix is his favorite, shouldn’t she have been the leader of it all?

Kat: Ooh, touché, burn.

[Eric laughs]

Kristen: Just saying. [laughs]

Eric: She’s a wild card, though. That’s the thing is, she is a wild card. You cannot entrust her with… I mean, I guess you can entrust her with the Horcrux, but he tried Lucius first, too.

Kristen: I guess.

Courtney: Yeah, she’s too impulsive to lead anything.

Kat: Yeah, that’s true.

Eric: She would just shoot first.

Kristen: Then I would say she’s not his favorite.

Kat: No, and in reference to the Horcrux, all she had to do was like keep it in her vault for 50 years.

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: It’s not like she had to do anything to it.

Eric: This may be… I mean, Bellatrix… this always gets brought up by me in my mind when I’m rereading. Bellatrix is a married woman, isn’t she?

Kat: Yes, Rodolphus.

Eric: Yeah, Rodolphus Lestrange. He’s alive and stuff, right?

Kat: Yeah, he’s a Death Eater.

Eric: Yep. Thought so. Okay.

[Kristen laughs]

Eric: The way she’s going on about Voldemort. I don’t know.

Kat: Hey, she can look.

[Courtney, Eric, and Kristen laugh]

Kristen: I’m sure things happen behind the scenes.

Kat: Oh, God! Let’s not go there.

Eric: I don’t think so. Only because Voldemort is so not human at this point.

Kat: Oh, you…? Oh, I thought… never mind.

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: Let’s not talk about that. Let’s instead talk about this theory that is brought up.

Eric: Ooh.

Kat: Yeah. When Snape is answering all of Bellatrix’s questions, she says, “Well, why haven’t you killed Harry Potter? He’s been in front of your nose for all these years; why haven’t you killed him?” And he brings up the theory once again which I think we learned about, well, obviously first here, but was elaborated on on Pottermore actually during, I believe, Draco’s summary. I don’t have that here, but log in to Pottermore, kids, and check it out. It’s very cool.

Eric: Tell me where to find the thing to click on and it better not be Galleons or something to add to my cart because…

Kat: I don’t know where it is. It’s in Draco’s chapter.

Kristen: I think you just click on Draco. I think it’s on him.

Eric: Oh, that’s easy.

Kat: Yeah. But that theory is the one that Harry is a Dark Lord and that’s how he was able to defeat Lord Voldemort, so Snape goes on to say that he wanted to see… he admits that he bought into this theory and wanted to see if Harry was indeed a Dark Lord before he just went and tried to kill him or whatever, whatever. So let’s talk about Harry the Dark Lord for a moment.

[Eric and Kristen laugh]

Kat: I know it’s improbable and it’s very hard to think about, but let’s just pretend in a parallel universe that Harry is indeed an insane Dark Lord. What kind of Dark Lord would he be?

Eric: He would find a way to make Expelliarmus deadly.

[Everyone laughs]

Courtney: I was about to say the same thing. Something to do with Expelliarmus. [laughs]

Kat: So would he morph the spell or something?

Eric: Yeah, yeah. He would basically shoot wands out of other people’s hands that go and attack and hit other people.

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: Oh, so impaling wands or something?

Courtney: Yeah. They impale, yeah.

Eric: Until they die.

Kat: Impalliarmus?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I like every single one of Snape’s answers. He’s so meticulous and calm and compartmentalized. He’s able to… he knows why they’re there; he knows exactly why she’s come and he just talks and talks and talks until Bella shuts up. And he does it by telling these captivating stories about his supposed actions that were all for Voldemort, when in reality I think, yeah, it was probably a rumor going around then, but it doesn’t excuse why the second that he found out that Harry was, in fact, “unremarkable” and all of the wonderful adjectives that he says immediately after this part in this chapter…

[Kat and Kristen laugh]

Eric: … why he doesn’t then kill Harry, except to say that it’s under Dumbledore’s nose and the appointment at Hogwarts grew into a valuable circumstance that Voldemort is now currently in the books making great use of.

Kat: Yeah, he knows his lines very well. He would be a very good actor.

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: I mean… he is a very good actor, isn’t he?

Eric: Well, it’s self-serving when Snape… initially when Bellatrix raises her first few concerns and shouts all of those accusations at him, he says, “Do you really think that I, Severus Snape, could fool the most accomplished Legilimens in the world?”

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: Yeah.

Eric: And we know that’s exactly what he does.

Kat and Kristen: Yeah.

Kat: He’s having an inner chuckle; he’s like, “Heh, heh, heh.”

[Courtney and Kristen laugh]

Eric: He’s like, “Do you really think I could fool the Dark Lord who’s the best Legilimens ever?”

Kat: Ha!

Eric: So actually, ladies and gents, this confirms that Snape is a good Occlumens and is probably the best teacher Harry could have hoped for in that subject.

[Eric and Kristen laugh]

Eric: We know their personal relationship; we talked about this during Order of the Phoenix. He wasn’t a good teacher to Harry, but he should have been probably the best possible teacher that Harry could have ever hoped for as an Occlumency teacher.

Kristen: Mhm.

Kat: That’s true. I would agree with that. I don’t know. I just… [sighs] This is a great chapter because like we said before, Snape is just telling the truth, which…

Kristen: Mhm.

Kat: … I mean, is this the only…?

Eric: Or version of the truth. Is that a thing? A version of…

Kat and Kristen: Yes.

Kat: Except for the playing Dumbledore part, everything that he says is true.

Eric: Or plausible. We’ll never know.

Kat: What do you mean, “Or plausible?”

Eric: Well, it’s just plausible, that’s all it is. Everything Snape says seems reasonable. A lot of times when he gets into a tight space he says, “Well, it all worked out in the end.” He says, “You were in Azkaban all that time. Wow, you’re so devoted. Meanwhile I got him sixteen years of info on Dumbledore and the Order and everything else. Wasn’t that cool?” He’s just so… he relies, I think, on the present fact that Voldemort is able to use him and does not currently blame him or question him the way that Bella does, to in part, have her lose a little of her… what’s the word? Lose a little of her intensity.

Kat: Yep.

Eric: So while he does have the answers, he also does, a couple of times, call it back to current events and the fact that things are really working out quite well at the moment because they’ve got Dumbledore and Hogwarts by the balls.

Kat: Ooh.

Kristen: Now does he ever say anything like… that Harry is supposed to be the Dark Lord’s?

Kat: Yeah, that comes up… yeah, it’s at the bottom of page 30 in the US edition.

Kristen: Okay.

Kat: “I should remind you that when Potter first arrived at Hogwarts, there were still many stories circulating about him. Rumors that he, himself, was a great dark wizard,” so…

Eric: Oh, and here’s where he says, too…

Kristen: But I mean… no, Lord Voldemort’s. Like in the fourth one, Lord Voldemort can only kill Harry and stuff like that. You think Snape thought along those lines, that Harry was always supposed to be Lord Voldemort’s to kill? Do they mention that at all?

Eric: I think what he says… yeah, he actually doesn’t mention that. It’s interesting because I think… isn’t it in Book 4 when Voldemort commands the Death Eaters not to kill Harry because Harry is his?

Kristen: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Yeah. What Snape actually says in this chapter is just that the fact that Voldemort was able to use Harry’s blood in his regeneration was a good thing because that’s apparently why Snape kept him alive all these years.

Kristen: Yeah.

Eric: Or just, “Hey, it’s advantageous.” But he actually says that. He tells that to Bellatrix; he’s like, “Because he was able to use Harry’s blood because Harry was still alive, now he’s immortal. Now he’s completely invincible.” And so that’s as far as he goes to justify his saving Harry for Voldemort.

Kristen: Mhm. Gotcha.

Eric: He doesn’t actually say, “Well, yeah, the Dark Lord would prefer to kill Harry himself.”

Kristen: Gotcha. Yeah. That’s what I always thought, that it was just that.

Eric: Yeah. But I think in this chapter it’s played more to Snape didn’t kill Harry because he is on assignment at Hogwarts, not raising any questions. [laughs]

Kristen: Suspicion. Right.

Kat: I guess while we’re on the topic of fun ways to die, I figured we should…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I didn’t know we were on that topic.

Kat: We’re not, but let’s go on to that topic and talk about the Unbreakable Vow, which is not a meat of the chapter but definitely a very fun and interesting bit of this chapter.

Eric: It’s a great conclusion.

Kat: It’s a great conclusion! And we actually have another lovely AudioBoom to listen to. So let’s do that now.

Eric: Yay.

[Audio]: Hey, Alohomora! This is Ellen Dawn. I want to make a comment on the Unbreakable Vow that occurs in this week’s chapter, “Spinner’s End,” which, may I add, is definitely in my top ten favorite chapters of the series. This spell has always intrigued me: An oath that, if broken, will kill the breaker of the oath. I feel like Noah would like it because it’s almost as if the spell is alive. This spell is a judge or a jury that gets to follow the oath-taker around, watching their every move, and can convict and execute the oath-taker at any time with no notice. It’s pretty mysterious. I also find it interesting that the three conditions of the oath made in the chapter are very non-quantitative, which would require even more judgement on the behalf of the spell. For example, the third line states, “If it seems Draco will fail, Snape must kill Dumbledore.” Very subjective. In my opinion, it seems as if Draco will fail during all of his attempts all year. In fact, I see no real way that Draco would ever succeed, so what kind of time limit is placed on this condition for Snape doing the deed himself? Why doesn’t the Vow just kill Snape after a few of Draco’s pathetic attempts that certainly make it seem as though he will fail? I’d love to hear you guys’ thoughts on this. Thanks.

Eric: This was yet another really, really good question.

Kat: Boom! Sorry.

Eric: Does anybody want to field this? [laughs] Who judges the Unbreakable Vow and how the language of this particular Vow is vague enough that Snape should probably be fearful of dropping dead every time Draco screws up?

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: Yeah.

Kristen: Well, it is really vaguely… even the last one, she doesn’t say to kill Dumbledore. She says, “The task Voldemort has given him.” So it’s really open-ended, even on that part.

Eric: Do you think it’s because JKR as a writer is having to hide the secret? We know now what Draco is tasked with but I’m trying to remember back to when we were first reading this book and it’s like, “Okay, what could Draco possibly be needing to do?” Even though it’s more or less stated in this chapter when – I think it’s Bella, or no, Narcissa – says, “All else have failed in trying to do this.”

Kat: That could be so many things.

Kristen: Yeah.

Courtney: Mhm.

Eric: I think it means Dumbledore.

[Courtney and Kristen laugh]

Kat: Obviously it means Dumbledore, but I mean, in the first readthrough, that could be a million things.

Eric: Oh, I think she says “him” or something.

Kristen: Let me see. It says, “I only meant that nobody has yet succeeded. Severus, please. You are – you always have been – Draco’s favorite.” It doesn’t go into “him” or anything.

Eric: Oh, okay. Him or anything, okay. So it is vague. So that is JKR. Bellatrix thinks that she’s being very specific, right? And it ends up being that there’s some flexibility for Snape because he can clearly mention it. It’s not the same as the Fidelius Charm or whatever, where he still can’t tell Voldemort where 12 Grimmauld Place is. The Unbreakable Vow has a very specific set of arrangements or agreements that Snape has agreed to. He said, “I will,” and it’s this binding contract. But he’s able to work within the parameters and I think, after this conversation, he goes and confers with Dumbledore and they figure out a situation. They figure out how to work around these parameters that have been agreed to.

Kat: Yeah. I like the point that you brought up, Eric, because I hadn’t thought about that, that this is Jo not being able to say what actually needs to be said here.

Eric: Wouldn’t the Vow be, “If Draco fails to kill Dumbledore, will you do it?”

Kristen: [laughs] Yeah, exactly.

Kat: Yeah, I think that’s actually exactly what it needs to be.

Eric: But because it’s worded the other way… well, but anyway, let’s get to this AudioBoom. It says, “Who judges what?” Because the wording is so vague; it’s like, “If it seems the Draco should fail.” So at what point does it seem that Draco will fail and how is that any different from the other times this coming year it seems that Draco has failed?

Kat: And also, even the second one says, “Will you, Severus, watch over my son, Draco, as he attempts to fulfill the Dark Lord’s wishes?” How many wishes does the Dark Lord have? Probably quite a few. I mean… [laughs] this is bad.

Eric: I’d love to be a genie and go over to Voldemort. “What are your wishes?”

Kat: Right, right.

Courtney: I feel like the attempt has to be that face-to-face like it is at the end; Draco being with Dumbledore right at the end. All the others were, “Oh, he did something to the necklace and Katie Bell had it and she was supposed to deliver it.” There’s all these little things in between. But at the end, it’s that last one where he is face-to-face with Dumbledore.

Eric: So it’s like in that final confrontation, if it seems that he is likely to fail at actually…

Kristen: Yeah, that’s the actual attempt. Yeah.

Eric: … if he gets as far as he possibly could get…

Kat: Mhm.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. Well, the other thing, though… maybe the second – this is something I just considered right when you guys were talking – maybe the second tenant of this agreement actually supports Snape staying alive for the whole year because, “Will you…”

Kristen: Watch over…

Eric: “… watch over Draco as he attempts…?”

Kristen: Mhm.

Eric: And so Snape is not going to be judged for the first time when Draco fails for not intervening because Snape has already said he will watch over Draco try.

Kristen: Mhm.

Kat: Okay.

Eric: You know? So it’s kind of like…

Courtney: That would make sense.

Eric: … there’s a buffer zone there.

Kristen: Mhm.

Eric: Maybe it’s the second agreement that nullifies the third or basically gives Snape more time.

Kristen: Mhm.

Kat: Actually, well, the…

Kristen: Third one.

Kat: My apologizes. Yeah, “Watch over my son as he attempts to fulfill” is the first one.

Eric: Okay.

Kat: The second is “[To] the best of your ability, protect him from harm.” And the third is “Will you carry out the deed…”

Kristen: If he fails? Yeah.

Eric: Okay, so the first one I think extends the third one a little bit.

Kat: I wonder if… do you think one of the three is more powerful? Since you’re talking about how the first one might make up for the third one, do you think one of them is “if you definitely break this one, you’re dead”?

Kristen: The third one?

Kat: Or do you think they’re all equal?

Eric: I think the difference is not in power but in the fact that the third one and only the third one references a specific encounter.

Kristen: Mhm.

Eric: Or that comes down to when all things are said and done and it looks like Draco’s not going to succeed, will you step in? Whereas otherwise it’s [a] very vague, undefined period of time.

Kristen: Mhm.

Kat: Hmm…

Eric: So, until this moment of failure of Draco’s where you have to step in or you’ll die, there’s that sense of urgency surrounding the third one. But the first two are just kind of like, “Can you not suck at…

[Kat laughs]

Eric: … looking over him?” And that is more… it’s not less powerful, but it’s less restrictive of Snape’s actions. Because he’s not going to be called to fulfill his duty if he’s busy one night and the next night, sees to Draco’s tutoring or whatever it is that he has to do. I don’t know, I think the third one because it’s more immediate about… “at the moment of truth, will you help, will you step in?”

Kristen: Mhm.

Eric: That makes it not more powerful, but that’s the only one that’s really super-restrictive on a certain date and time specifically.

Kat: Do you think Snape was expecting this, or something like this from Narcissa?

Eric: Maybe. When he sees them, I think he knows what they’re there for.

Kat: Yeah.

Eric: Narcissa is clearly… and bless her, the mother instinct is taking over…

Kristen: Mhm.

Eric: … and she has been on the higher class end of the secret Death Eaters society for ages. And finally with her husband being imprisoned and her son being asked to – or basically ordered to – take up his stead with equal responsibilities in spite of Draco’s age, Narcissa realizes for the first time what is actually at stake. And what is at stake is her family, and she cannot deal with that.

Kristen: Right.

Courtney: Mhm.

Eric: And so I think that Snape knows that she wants some assurances, but it is Bella who suggests the Unbreakable Vow, and I think that was spur of the moment – I think it takes Snape by surprise. But almost in jest or in bait and in spite, he does say yes. Because Bella thinks that she’s finally got one over on Snape when she suggests the Unbreakable Vow.

Kristen: Mhm.

Kat: Right.

Eric: And then he’s like, “You know what, let’s do this.”

Kat: And then her jaw drops, as it says in the text.

Kristen: Yeah.

Courtney: I think Narcissa is actually the one to suggest the Vow.

Eric: Oh, okay.

Courtney: Because I think the other one might be movie canon.

Eric: Wait… no, let me… I’m going to look this up.

Kat: Actually, you’re right. Because she says… Narcissa is kneeling, kissing his hand, and says, “Will you take the Unbreakable Vow?”

Courtney: Mhm.

Eric: Oh! There you go.

Kat: And then Snape… Bella is like, “Ha-ha-ha! Of course he’ll try,” and then Snape’s like, “Yes, I’ll do it.”

Courtney: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, okay, okay. So it’s actually… Narcissa needs so much assurance that she wants him to take the Unbreakable Vow, but she’s not skeptical. She thinks he will literally do it.

Courtney: Yeah.

Kat: Which, you know… it’s funny. I said earlier that she has redeeming qualities and I actually really think that she does, especially because we don’t see too much of her before this point. I feel like this year is kind of the turning point for her. Like you said, Kristen, she realizes what’s at stake here, and she starts to drift away from the dark side of things.

Kristen: Mhm.

Kat: But basically she is saying, “Snape,” – and I’m sure most mothers would say this – “I value my son’s life over yours, even though you are the only person I will turn to with this problem. I trust you so much that I’ll talk to you about it, but it’s okay if you die for it,” is what she’s saying to Snape right now in this moment.

Kristen: Yeah.

Eric: Hmm…

Kat: Is that not true?

Kristen: No, I agree.

Eric: Yeah, and I think there’s a general understanding being made here of the older generation to support the new generation. Snape basically is saying he will take a bullet for Draco right here.

Kristen: Mhm.

Eric: Or he will… well, no, actually it doesn’t mean that at all. It just means that he’ll kill Dumbledore. He’s agreeing to kill somebody if Draco fails.

[Kristen laughs]

Eric: What’s interesting to me in this chapter is that Voldemort expects Draco to fail and die, and I think that much is made clear by everybody, that Draco is being punished for Lucius’s failures and that… Snape has a line in this chapter that says, “I believe the Dark Lord does expect me to be the one to do it in the end.”

Kat: So that begs the question then, is that… I understand that Draco is being punished, but is that the only reason? Because wouldn’t Voldemort want to pick somebody who has an actual even remote chance of succeeding?

Courtney: Not if he’s angry.

Kat: Mhm.

Courtney: If he’s just going at it, he’s going to pick Draco because he’s mad at Lucius, and then he knows Snape is right there. Because if he thinks Snape’s loyal to him, he’s like, “Oh, he works there. He can just go up and kill him any time.”

Kat: But doesn’t that seem foolhardy? Obviously Lord Voldemort is not the sharpest crayon in the box, but isn’t it a little foolhardy to put somebody like Draco on this task, knowing probably full well that eventually he’ll be figured out?

Kristen: Yeah.

Eric: Well, do you believe that Draco gives it his all?

Kat: Ugh! No.

[Kristen laughs]

Eric: Okay, so we know the stress does get to him, but Draco at least kind of tries, right?

Courtney: Yeah.

Kat: Hmm… I’m not sure.

Courtney: I think in the beginning he’s excited about it. But then…

Eric: That’s exactly what I’m [unintelligible] … because he was raised to be.

Kristen: Mhm.

Eric: And this is Voldemort lashing out because… all of these Death Eaters have kids that they have raised in these dark ways to accept their parents’ company and the company of all the other Death Eaters in their house and all sorts of other stuff.

Kat: Mhm.

Eric: And so when Voldemort gives Draco this option, it is the best sort of revenge because he’s saying to Lucius basically, “This is your son who you’ve raised to think that I’m an okay guy.”

Kristen: Mhm.

Eric: “Now I’m going to give him an order that he can’t get out of, and I’m going to let him die trying to please me, to serve me. I’m going to let him die trying to serve me.” And this is all because Lucius taught Draco to be okay with Voldemort.

Kat: Right.

Kristen: Mhm.

Eric: Over-generalized…

Kat: It’s like… no, no, you’re right. He’s been waiting his whole life for this moment, and then he’s halfway through and he’s like, “Oh, crap, I don’t want this. Get me out! Get me out!”

[Courtney laughs]

Kristen: Yeah.

Kat: Well, this is a great chapter. God, this has been a long conversation but a really great one, and I really look forward to remembering some of the moments in this chapter and seeing where they come full circle by the end of the book. Because I think there’s quite a few things in this chapter that are going to come up again.

Courtney: Definitely.

Kristen: Yeah, I agree.

Eric: I know we get back to Harry next chapter, but these two chapters were pretty… I think it was a great idea to have them be without Harry and to have them start this book which is about Snape. And now we’re seeing where he lives…

[Everyone laughs]

Kat: In this dirty, grimy place.

Eric: … in the summer.

Kristen: Yeah.

Kat: Ugh!

[Kristen laughs]

Eric: A little bit of weird stuff about Wormtail, though, too.

[Courtney laughs]

Kat: Yeah. Isn’t everything about Wormtail a little weird?

Kristen: Yeah.

[Kat laughs]

Courtney: I find it weird that everyone refers to him as Wormtail now, even though that was his Marauders name. Snape refers to him as that and everything.

Kat: I know, it’s really bizarre.

Eric: I think again, it’s throwing it in your face.

Kristen: Mhm.

Eric: Your formal self and former glory.

Kristen: Yeah.

Kat: Yeah. “You are no more, little vermin.”

Eric: “You betrayed all the friends who used to call you that. Now we’re going to call you that to remind you of how terrible a person you are.”

Kat: Yeah, it used to be an endearing name…

Kristen: Right.

Kat: … and now it’s… oh my God, I just had the word.

Eric: Pejorative?

Kat: Woah! I don’t know what that word means.

[Everyone laughs]

Kat: Derogatory!

Eric: I wasn’t sure.

Kat: Now it’s a derogatory name. It’s not nice and endearing anymore, it’s derogatory.

Kristen: Right.

Eric: Yep. Pejorative is “a term of abuse, term of disparagement, or a derogatory term.”

Kat: Ahh! Perfect.

Eric: There you go.

Kat: So you said what I meant to say without saying it.

[Kristen laughs]

Kat: Thanks, Eric.

Eric: You’re welcome.

Kat: But there you go, listeners, that is Chapter 2 of Half-Blood Prince.

Kristen: So now we’re going to go into this week’s Podcast Question of the Week:

“In this chapter we see a diminished Wormtail present the role he has been assigned, and Snape threatens to ask Voldemort for a more dangerous assignment for him. How did Wormtail end up here? What was his job before this one since the time of Voldemort’s return to power?”

We would love to hear your ideas about this question, and you can answer it on our main Alohomora! site.

Kat: That’s a good one because Wormtail… who the hell knows where he’s been?

[Eric and Kristen laugh]

Eric: We’re looking for Pottermore references, we’re looking for ideas, guesses…

Kat: I mean, fan fiction would apply.

[Courtney and Kristen laugh]

Eric: … all of your theories.

Kristen: Fan fic.

Eric: Theories or concrete answers are as always very welcome. We want to thank our guest, Courtney, for joining us. Thank you, Courtney.

Courtney: Oh, thank you so much for having me on the show. I enjoyed it so much.

Kat: Good. We’re so glad to hear that.

Kristen: And if you would like to be on the show, just visit our page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. All you need is… an Apple headphone set will work, no fancy equipment needed. And while you’re on our website, don’t forget to download a free ringtone. They are amazing.

Eric: And if you want to get a hold of us, there are many ways in which you can do that. We are on Twitter – our username is @AlohomoraMN – we’re located on Facebook (facebook.com/openthedumbledore); we are on Tumblr at mnalohomorapodcast; and you can call us on our hotline, which is 206-GO-ALBUS (206-462-5287). And audioBoom, you heard two very wonderful audioBooms on this week’s episode – one of them was Canadian…

[Kat laughs]

Eric: … and we love it when we get these. This is an opportunity for you to record; they’re super easy to send. Just go to alohomora.mugglenet.com and there’s something on the right-hand side for audioBoom – it says, “Leave us an audioBoom.” Click on that button and you will immediately start recording. Try to keep your recording in question under 60 seconds please, and we will play it on the show like we do.

Kat: And we want to mention our store. As always, we have some really awesome merchandise on there. We have House shirts, for all of your Hogwarts spirit needs, I suppose; we have Desk!Pig shirts, of course; the Mandrake Liberation Front, or MLF. That is our token to Noah – miss you, Noah!

Eric: I can’t believe we sell that shirt.

Kat: I know, but you know what, at least we left out the international, so I’ll let the listeners figure that out for themselves. And then of course we have all of our awesome host shirts like “Minerva is my homegirl” and “Hug me, I’m a Hufflepuff.” And there’s a million things on there, so definitely check it out. We have sales all the time, so if you’re following us on Twitter or Facebook, look for the codes – they’ll be there. Yeah, there you go.

Kristen: And don’t forget about our amazing smartphone app, which is available on this side of the pond and the other. Prices do vary. You can find transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and more. It’s pretty cool. You should really go and get it. And that’s it for this episode.

[Show music begins]

Kristen: I’m Kristen Keys.

Eric: I’m Eric Scull.

Kat: And I’m Kat Miller. Thank you for listening to Episode 120 of Alohomora!

Kristen: Cissy, open the Dumbledore!

[Show music continues]

Kat: And…

Eric: Yeah.

Kat: … with that, let’s do this. It’s the chapter time.

[Train noise in the background]

Kat: Wow, that was almost perfect – the train.

Kristen: That’s scary.

Kat: I know.

Kristen: I thought, “Oh, she’s playing Michael’s clip.”

[Eric, Kat, and Kristen laugh]

Kat: I totally thought that it was. That was perfect timing.

Kristen: That was good. [laughs]

Courtney: That was great.

Eric: Bella and Cissy take public transit…

[Courtney, Kat, and Kristen laugh]

Eric: … to arrive at Hogwarts, or Spinner’s End, or wherever it is.

Kristen: [laughs] Yes, exactly. Great sound.

[Prolonged silence]

Eric: So…

Kat: Yes, I was actually going to hold a moment of silence for the fox.

Eric: Oh, please do.

Kat: I will.

Kristen: What does the fox say?

Courtney: No.

Kat: Let’s… No.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: [singing] “Ring-ding-ding-ding-dingeringeding!”

Kat: [laughs] Oh my God.

[Courtney and Kristen laugh]

Kat: Don’t start. Don’t start.

Kristen: “Ka-pow-ka-pow-ka-pow.”

[Courtney, Eric, and Kristen laugh]

Kat: I have never heard that song, and I don’t ever want to.

Eric: What?!

Courtney: Oh, you should just look it up for this.

Kristen: My clients used to love the sound.

Eric: [singing] “What does the fox say?”

Kristen: Oh my God. You can say it in Siri. “What does the fox say?” “Ka-pow-ka-pow-ka-pow-ka-pow.” [laughs]

Kat: Wait…

Eric: Oh no, really?

Kristen: [laughs] Yes.

Kat: I gotta do it.

Kristen: She’ll say it in different tones, too. So I’ve gotten like…

Eric: Siri, what does the fox say?

[Audio]: [from Eric’s phone] You will never know. The secret of the fox is an ancient mystery.

Eric: Siri, [singing] what does the fox say?

[Audio]: [from Eric’s phone] Wa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pa-pow.

[Kristen laughs]

Eric: There you go.

Kat: [laughs] Oh, that’s brilliant. Siri, what does the fox say?

[Audio]: [from Kat’s phone] Fraka-kaka-kaka-kaka-kow.

[Everyone laughs]