Transcript – Episode 176



[Show music begins]

Eric Scull: This is Episode 176 of Alohomora! for February 6, 2016.

[Show music continues]

Eric: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another fascinating episode of Alohomora! I’m Eric Scull.

Megan Kelly: I’m Megan Kelly.

Alison Siggard: And I’m Alison Siggard. And our guest this week is Meredith. Welcome, Meredith!

Meredith Finch: Thank you, guys!

Eric: Hey, Meredith is here!

Megan: Hi!

[Alison laughs]

Meredith: Yay! I’m very, very excited to be here. I am a Hufflepuff officially on Pottermore.

Eric: Yes!

Meredith: Always thought I was going to be a Ravenclaw, but per the norm, read the Hufflepuff letter and felt immediately connected to it and have since embraced it. Funny story, my sister and I recently went to [the] Wizarding World to celebrate her birthday, and she is a Slytherin…

Eric: Ooh!

Meredith: … so we walked around with Hufflepuff and Slytherin T-shirts and got lots of comments about how we really… They were like, “Wow, that’s a combination we’ve never seen before.”

[Megan and Alison laugh]

Eric: Do you know…? I think you’ll appreciate this: Me and my girlfriend are Hufflepuff and Slytherin, and we are not the only couple that we know that are Hufflepuff and Slytherin. [laughs]

Meredith: Really?

Eric: Yes!

Meredith: That’s a good one.

Eric: So at first I was going to suggest… Oh, did you just not hang with your sister at all?

[Everyone laughs]

Meredith: We parted ways. We didn’t see each other the whole time.

Eric: But then I was like, “Wait a minute, that doesn’t make any… That’s not Kosher.”

[Meredith laughs]

Alison: Yeah, no, I have lots of Slytherin friends. Slytherins make good friends.

Megan: They do.

Eric: I think they abuse you. I think they’re using you, Alison.

[Alison and Meredith laugh]

Eric: Megan, I wanted to ask: Have you been on this show before?

Megan: I have not.

Eric: Okay, so Megan hosts MuggleNet’s brand new Harry Potter podcast, SpeakBeasty.

Meredith: Oh!

Alison: Which is fabulous, and you should all be listening to it if you’re not already.

Megan: Aww, thanks. It’s fun. We like it. [laughs]

Eric: And I guess we’ll just take a minute. Tell us about SpeakBeasty.

Megan: Well, we’re about four episodes in now. There’s a nice little group of us, and we discuss Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, the upcoming film series. We dissect the book; we talk about which beasts we think are going to be in the movie and what we’re hoping to see from them. We look at the trailers and the new photos that come out. Just all kinds of excitement, basically.

Eric: I have to say, I’m super excited to start listening myself. I know I’m a little behind, but I was privy to some of the planning, and it just looks like a real fun time, a real cool show. So for those Alohomora! listeners who are not currently listening to SpeakBeasty, go and do that…

Megan: [laughs] Yes, please.

Eric: … and check out Megan over there. But in the meantime, we have Megan and Meredith with us here today. Kat and Michael had to step off and do other things, so they will be back in due course, but not this episode.

Alison: And funny you should bring up the Wizarding World, Meredith, because Megan and I were just there.

Megan: Yes!

Meredith: Ahh!

Alison: And actually, you have our app content, guys. It was my first time…

Meredith: Oh!

Alison: … and I think one of the videos coming up is going to be the video of the first time I stepped into Diagon Alley because we recorded specially for that. Kristen and Kat and I had some fun, so…

Meredith: Wow.

Megan: It was my first time too, and it was unbelievable.

Alison: It’s phenomenal.

Eric: When you say you “had some fun,” do you mean you had some tears?

Megan: Oh yeah.

Alison: There were definitely tears, and Kristen and Kat and I also did some other fun things to bring app content to all of our listeners. So it was great. It was awesome. I’m not over it yet.

Megan: Yeah, no.

Meredith: It stays with you for a while after.

Eric: What was your favorite part?

Meredith: I loved just doing the magic. I loved walking around with my wand. It was my second time there. So I went back in March, and my sister is also a die-hard fan, and she couldn’t go that time. So the whole time I was there I just kept thinking about how badly I wished she [were] there to experience this with me. So for her birthday, I took her back, and it was just so great to have her have a wand and me have a wand. We just ran around and did magic the whole time, drank butterbeer, and […] just sat in Hogsmeade and ate Bertie Bott’s Every Flavor Beans and watched people doing magic, and it just felt like a real place. It wasn’t like, “Oh, we’re in a theme park, and this is just a fun trip.”

Alison: That’s the best.

Meredith: It’s like, “No, this is… I’m a wizard. I’m here.” [laughs]

Megan: They do an amazing job of making you feel like you’re really there. It’s crazy.

Eric: And the music doesn’t hurt at all.

Megan: No!

Meredith: The music is flawless.

Eric: They pick the most immersive… It’s just like… Ahh. It’s home.

Alison: It’s perfect. Everything about it is perfect.

Megan: Let’s go back.

[Alison and Meredith laugh]

Meredith: I agree. Team trip, right now.

Eric: Oh, come on, guys. We can’t go back. We have a book to discuss.

Alison: Yes, we do. So instead of going to Orlando, we’re actually going to pop into Chapter 25 of Deathly Hallows: “Shell Cottage.”

Megan: But before we jump into “Shell Cottage,” we have some really great comments from last week’s episode that we want to touch on. Chapter 24 was last week. So Eileen Prince/Jones writes,

” The thing that struck me most in this chapter is that Harry finally masters [L]egilimency while grieving for Dobby. When Snape was trying to teach Harry this skill back in HBP he said that he had to empty himself of all feeling, so I thought it was strange that for Harry he had to use emotion to master it. I was thinking about it, and I think that is because if Harry emptied himself of all feeling he still has access to Voldee’s feelings thru [sic] the [H]orcrux connection. He can never truly be empty of feeling while he has a piece of Voldee’s soul in him, there’s always going to be this ‘noise’ in the background, almost like a radio station that you can’t quite dial in on; you can hear what is being broadcasted, but there is a constant static. He has to use love, or grief, which I think is an extension of love, to keep Voldee out of his head because that is the only feeling that Voldee can’t feel and also doesn’t understand. This effectively allows [H]arry to shut him out of his own mind. It is shown in OotP that love repulses Voldee, so maybe the part of Voldee’s soul in Harry gets ‘knocked out’ for a while when Harry is feeling love.”

I like that image of the radio station dial. [laughs]

Alison: I like this idea because it makes me wonder, then, if Snape telling Harry that to use Occlumency he needs to not have feeling, that Snape doesn’t do that himself. That may be… As much as I don’t agree with Snape and Lily’s pairing…

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: … there’s still that grief that he feels over that, and maybe the guilt is what helps him control his Occlumency.

Eric: Ooh! Ahh, I think that they are different. I think that what Harry is doing here is not so much Legilimency. I reject the premise. I think that what it is, is shutting Voldemort out, and I think in the text it is stated that just like when he tries to possess him and can’t in Order of the Phoenix, love is keeping him out. I completely agree, but I don’t think Harry is performing Legilimency. Legilimency is what Snape was doing.

Alison: Well, yeah, but Occlumency is the opposite.

Eric: I must have meant to be saying Occlumency all of this time.

Alison: Oh.

[Megan and Meredith laugh]

Eric: Because it’s not Occlumency, what Harry is doing. It is shutting Voldemort out, but Voldemort… he’s basically just figured out how to put a stopper on the connection between them. He’s found a way to tolerate Voldemort’s intense feelings and make them less powerful so that he can focus on the tasks at hand.

Meredith: I almost think… She used the radio analogy; Occlumency would be turning off the radio and just blocking it completely. And I think what he’s doing – I agree with you, Eric – is just tuning to a different station. So it’s drowning out whatever’s in the background.

Eric: I think he’s making himself purposefully less receptive to it. He’s changing the station. That’s a really good analogy.

Megan: Yeah, and I think it’s important in that scene that he’s making that choice. It’s an important distinction between him and Voldemort.

Alison: Yeah, that’s true.

Megan: So our next comment is from PuffNProud, who writes,

” About the Elder Wand sparking when Voldemort took possession of it…at first I thought that the wand was rebelling a bit at being handled by Voldemort as at this point Harry is its true master as the hosts mentioned. Then I thought it is more likely that the wand is excited to have Voldemort use it. Since the wand has essentially been bred to seek power, mostly through violence, the Elder Wand probably thought it found its soulmate. It would be awful to imagine the truly extra-ordinary [sic] magic it could have performed if Voldemort had in fact mastered the Elder Wand.”

Eric: Agreed.

Alison: Interesting.

Eric: I get that impression while reading it too, that it sparked not out of rejection, but it’s just like, “Ooh, human contact!”

Megan: I like the idea of the wand as a sentient being that’s like, “Ooh, what’s this guy about?”

Eric: Friends!

Megan: I don’t really think of them that way, but it’s true. I mean…

Eric: If there [were] ever a time in the books to think of them that way, it’s these couple chapters.

Meredith: Seriously.

Megan: Yeah, for sure.

Eric: That wand was probably just bored…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … in the tomb, not being used. And I think that is exactly right, what PuffNProud said: It’s been bred to respond to power and to be used in that way, so it’s almost as though its purpose was negated all of this time, so the sparks are probably… Maybe it’s static from Dumbledore’s gown.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I’m going to go with static, actually.

Alison: It goes back to the idea of this point we’ve been debating for the past several episodes of how do wand masters…? How is that all working? And so yeah, that’s still the big question, I think. How do true masters of wands work and how do they not work if someone else is using it?

Meredith: It’s almost like the power that the wand feels when Voldemort takes it almost overrides… not completely, but overrides the fact that it knows its allegiance is not to Voldemort. So those two things are in conflict. In this case, because of the proximity of Voldemort and the power that he yields, it outweighs it a little bit. But when Harry does take possession of it, it’s like, “Okay, well, this is my true owner, and it was fun while it lasted, Voldy, but this is where my allegiance is.”

Eric: “Voldy, you’re just not my type.”

[Alison and Meredith laugh]

Eric: “It worked for a while. It was fun for one night, but I’m moving on.”

[Meredith laughs]

Alison: [laughs] Oh, gosh.

Megan: All right. The next comment comes from WhoDoYouKnowWhosLostAButtock, which I like. I like your username.

[Eric and Megan laugh]

Megan: [reads]

“I enjoyed the observation on Voldemort’s childish view of so much of the magical world, but I think one of the points that got missed about his desire for a Gringotts vault was Voldemort’s hypocrisy, which is so important to his character.

“One of the hosts asked why he would want a Gringotts vault since it’s goblin-controlled. If you think the way Voldemort does, that’s irrelevant. What he cares about is the status, the belonging, the weight a Gringotts vault would have for him. But the point about the goblins is valid – just misinterpreted.

“With all his pure-blood mania, sure, Voldemort should be anti-Gringotts, but isn’t that the point of all of this? He himself is not pure-blood! (Clear Hitler echoes here, people – loud and clear.) The very essence of his philosophy is a lie and a contradiction, which proves that Voldemort’s ideals have never truly been about societal ideals, but about gaining power for himself. He may find goblins distasteful, but the craving for the status of a vault overpowers that distaste, and he brushes the hypocrisy of that action aside. It’s part of Jo’s larger point about how tyrants often don’t actually support the ideals they espouse – they’re so often a smoke screen, a hypocritical one at that, to simply mask the hunger for power and the willingness to do anything to get it.

“But again, it’s brilliant that in all of this, Voldemort/Tom Riddle never gets his own Gringotts vault. Maybe he never had enough money. Maybe, deep down, he knew that even if he got his own vault, he’d always be a first[-]generation wizard (since he doesn’t own up to his heritage on his mother’s side, and I always got the impression that the Gaunts kept their gold in their mattress, what little of it they had). He’s low-level; he’d have basic security at best. Getting his own vault would underline his own basic lack of importance, and he could not, would not, accept or face that. So he gets around it by allying himself with a powerful old wizarding family who will let him put things in the Lestrange vault, and problem solved.

Hypocrisy? The fact that it’s an empty victory because he does not have a vault of his own, because he is simply riding the coattails of others to make himself feel important? Doesn’t register; it’s brushed aside. Same deal with the Horcrux in Hogwarts – he is convinced that he’s the only one who has found the Room of Requirement but is so laughably wrong. He wants a job at Hogwarts – but not really. He wants to be part of Hogwarts – but not really.

It’s the hypocrisy of the tyrant, and it brings them to their knees every time.”

Eric: Wow!

Megan: So a lot to think about.

Alison: That was great.

[Megan laughs]

Eric: What a thorough and multi-faceted… good points, all.

Alison: I think we kind of see… I’m just going to break this down a little bit, but I think they’re right about this being irrelevant that goblins run Gringotts. I mean, Voldemort doesn’t care. Once he takes over, he puts wizards in charge of Gringotts. We’re going to see that soon, that goblins are no longer in control, that the wizards have taken it over [and] the Ministry has taken it over. So there’s his pure-blood mania running into that. But yeah, I think [that’s] definitely irrelevant to him. He doesn’t care; he just wants what that means. He wants the sentiment that goes behind that.

Meredith: Yeah, he’s all about status symbols. I mean, look at his Horcruxes and what he chooses to make them out of. It doesn’t matter where they came… It doesn’t matter, logically, that that makes no sense to have those as Horcruxes. It’s the status of it, and I think the Gringotts vault is representative of that as well. He wants the status of having that vault, even though it doesn’t really make much logical sense as the common ally.

Eric: Yeah. No, I actually hadn’t thought about the Gaunts and the way that they’re illustrated here. Which makes sense because despite them being an old wizarding family, like presumably Harry had, they weren’t the same type of people.

Megan: It’s like the Weasleys. They’re an old wizarding family, but they’re not the type that Voldemort cares about or wants to be like.

Alison: Exactly. I like the idea, though, of him knowing that he wouldn’t get one of the secret high-security vaults.

[Megan laughs]

Alison: Because if he got one himself… He just kind of takes over the Lestranges’ and is like, “Put all my stuff in the real big ones.” [laughs]

Meredith: And you know Bellatrix is like, “Absolutely, of course, no problem.”

Alison: Yeah. [laughs]

Eric: Thanks again to everybody who submitted comments. And now we’re going to read some Podcast Question of the Week responses from last week’s Podcast Question of the Week. Let’s give you a refresher for what that question was:

“In this chapter, Harry reflects on his first encounter with Ollivander, noting that ‘he had been unsure when they first met of how much he liked Ollivander. Even now, having been tortured and imprisoned by Voldemort, the idea of the Dark wizard in possession of this wand seemed to enthrall him as much as it repulsed him.’ This impression of Ollivander was poised to be recalled since his first appearance in Sorcerer’s/Philosopher’s Stone. Why is this aspect of his character recalled in this moment? What is the significance of this to Ollivander’s character and to Harry’s journey?”

So we got a lot of good responses. It was actually a really great question from last week.

Meredith: Great question.

Eric: And the first is an abridged comment. I abridged it. Felix Scamander says,

“I think that this is just a reminder of his knowledge and devotion to his craft. Ollivander’s awe doesn’t take sides, even when he has been tortured to a disgusting extent by the warlock in question.”

So here’s a further comment from DoraNympha:

“Clearly, Ollivander is on Harry’s side. He’s not a fan of Voldemort, but he is first and foremost a wandmaker, and he’s a Ravenclaw. So of course he’ll consider the idea of Voldemort in possession of the Elder Wand as an academic, kind of like how when Slughorn is asked about Horcruxes and he entertains the idea of theorizing and hypothetical conversations quite enthusiastically. They’re discussing something as vile as soul-splitting by murder, but he’s quite happy to theorize as an academic, and it’s fine. I really don’t think there is any reason to doubt Ollivander, not that Harry doubts his allegiance. [He] just is kind of not sure how much he likes him, because I really don’t think there’s anything wrong with toying with ideas. You also have to detach yourself from sentimentality to consider some theory anyway; otherwise, scientists would be crying into petri dishes from the thought of what the viruses they’re examining can do and how many people die from them.”

Alison: Yeah, I think that’s a really valid point, and I also think it highlights some of the differences between people. I mean, people like Ollivander can take things very thought-based, whereas people like Harry take things more emotions-based. And so because Ollivander is not necessarily emotionally invested… He’s part of this now, but his emotional investment isn’t in this struggle between Voldemort and Harry. I think that’s a really great way to say it. He’s just looking at this very objectively and that’s why.

Megan: Yeah. If you think of it from his perspective as an academic, he’s been studying wandlore. And here you have this situation where this wizard is taking wandlore and magic f[u]rther than it’s ever gone. So it would be really hard not to be interested in that…

[Eric laughs]

Megan: … despite the fact that this wizard is terrible and has tortured you and everyone you know. There’s some part of [you] that’s going to be like, “Wow, this is so interesting.”

Meredith: Yeah, I’ve always thought of Ollivander in the terms of an academic, specifically like a scientist or a chemist, even. Because he’s looking… I go back to the scene where he’s giving Harry his wand and he’s looking for a reaction. He’s pairing up different combinations of ingredients, almost – the core, the wood, the wizard itself – and waiting for the reaction that he’s looking for. So in that sense, he’s very scientific about what he does, and the scientific mind in him is just giddy at the thought of the reaction that would occur if Voldemort got the Elder Wand.

Eric: Here’s further coloring from Arthur Dent on this hot-button topic:

“For me, Ollivander resembles the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project. He is so focused on the new knowledge and understanding of wandlore that the ultimate wand/wizard combination could provide that he doesn’t think of the consequences.”

So this is a more negative, sort of Oppenheimer-type portrayal of Ollivander, suggesting that perhaps he would like to see, or would be the cause of, this occurring… And actually, in a way, it’s fair because Ollivander is the cause of Voldemort getting the Elder Wand, I think. He really starts him on that journey by sending him to Gregorovitch first. So the idea that… And again, Oppenheimer regretted the decision later – I know this from history – but these kinds of guys, these academics, aren’t incapable of causing great disaster. So do you think we should not like Ollivander? Is that what Jo is getting at?

Meredith: I don’t think so. I don’t think you should dislike him. I have a question, though. You had said that Ollivander led him to Gregorovitch, and I might just be forgetting, but do we know…? Because Voldemort asks him about it, right? So where does Voldemort get that from? It wouldn’t be “The Tale of the Three Brothers,” because then he would know about all three.

Alison: History, I think…

Meredith: So do we know…?

Alison: I think it’s just history. Hermione makes it clear that legends of wands like this have come down through history.

Meredith: Okay, yeah.

Alison: So I’m sure – big surprise – Voldy probably paid attention in History of Magic. What?!

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Voldemort would. He so would.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: I bet he – what’s the word? – greased up Professor Binns…

[Eric and Megan laugh]

Eric: … and was like, “Hello, professor.” Teacher’s pet.

Megan: Yeah, sure. Slughorn wasn’t the only teacher he ever did that to.

Eric: But I do think it probably came from … because Voldemort wanted to try the different… It’s actually laid out in the chapter. He first tried just any other wand when he got Lucius Malfoy’s. And when that didn’t work, he then pressed Ollivander for a solution, and I think the solution that came to him was this one. So that’s what it is because he was trying to get the connection not to matter anymore – so much. But anyway, our final response that we’re going to read is also coming from the very verbose but articulate WhoDoYouKnowWhosLostAButtock, who chimes in:

“Ollivander makes Harry uncomfortable because Ollivander allies himself with wands, wandlore, their history and creation. He does NOT ally himself with the acts committed by the wands, either good or bad. In a sense, then, Ollivander is a representation of power itself and a reminder of the nebulous nature of it. This is perfect timing for Harry to recall this since he is now in a delicate situation – Hallows or Horcruxes?

”
He’s made his decision to pursue the Horcruxes, but Harry has been and will continue to be forced to come face-to-face with his own views on power and how much he is willing to give for power. Ollivander is the perfect reminder of that struggle, right here at this moment. Harry is reminded that, yes, power is enticing, fascinating, magnetic, but it has a dark side, and for somebody like Harry, not acknowledging that is dangerous in itself. He’s not okay with that kind of moral relativism. But as someone who is going to be the Master of the Hallows by the end of the book, who will have to make some decisions regarding how to use them, and who will have to face his own views of Dumbledore once he understands Dumbledore’s own struggle with the Hallows, he needs to face up to his moment of discomfort right now. It’s a key reminder [for both] Harry and the reader.”

[Alison applaudes]

Meredith: Wow.

[Megan and Meredith laugh]

Alison: That’s all I have to say.

Eric: Are these really smart guys?

Megan: Is this person J.K. Rowling?

[Alison laughs]

Eric: Yeah, probably, based on the username.

[Meredith laughs]

Megan: Yeah, right?

Eric: Although I often feel that way about our usernames.

Meredith: This is a great answer because it addresses that part of the question of why this is being brought up now. And I think it does it very eloquently. Nothing to add to it.

[Megan laughs]

Eric: Yeah, I agree. It kind of ties it up in a nice little bow.

Megan: Stamp of approval.

[Eric imitates Kat’s stamp]

[Alison, Megan, and Meredith laugh]

Eric: And that wraps up our Podcast Question of the Week recap. Be sure to respond to that if you have any additional thoughts or next week’s Podcast Question of the Week, which we will read at the end of the show.

Alison: And before we go on to our chapter, we just want to throw out a reminder about our Patreon and let you guys know that this episode is sponsored by Andrew Hill on Patreon.

Eric: Thank you, Andrew Hill.

Meredith: Yay, Andrew.

Alison: Thank you so much. And you too, listener, can become a sponsor of us for as a little as a dollar a month. And just so you know, our post-Hallows plans have been decided on, and our Patreon sponsors will get to know weeks before everyone else. So head on over to our website, alohomora.mugglenet.com, and hit on our Patreon button, and you can go ahead and sponsor us there.

Eric: And thank you to all who sponsor us through Patreon.

Alison: Yes. Thank you so much. And now we’ll move on to our chapter discussion of Chapter 25.

Eric: Ooh!

Megan: Yay!

[Alison laughs]

[Deathly Hallows Chapter 25 intro begins]

[Sound of knocking]

Bill Weasley: Chapter 25…

[Sound of metallic clanging]

Bill Weasley: “Shell Cottage.”

[Deathly Hallows Chapter 25 intro ends]

Alison: It’s a good chapter. There is a lot in this chapter.

Eric: There is.

Alison: A lot of subtle stuff is going on. But the summary for this chapter: In a few moments of peace in the aftermath of Malfoy Manor and Ollivander’s information, Harry contemplates his sudden decision between Hallows and Horcruxes. The trio make[s] a deal that satisfies no one to break into the Lestanges’ Gringotts vault in search of the next piece of Voldemort’s soul. But Bill’s advice on goblins puts a slight damper on the announcement of Teddy Lupin’s birth, leaving Harry wondering whether he is headed for the same fate as Sirius, his own godfather. Big chapter. [laughs]

Eric: That was nice. That was really… Yeah, you wouldn’t know it. It masquerades like this done-in-30-minutes quick reprieve from action. Because they’re planning the break-in, but you don’t really see that. And then before you know it, there’s wine being passed around.

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Eric: But there’s actually a lot to it. I think you’re right to point that out. And of course you found everything there is to point out.

[Alison, Eric, and Meredith laugh]

Alison: Well, one of the first things I noticed as I was going through is… Oh, gosh, I’m going to talk about this the whole book, but this chapter is another one of these chapters that is some of JKR’s most beautiful writing. The first couple [of] pages of this chapter are just gorgeous and heartfelt, and just the language alone… I’m going to be a little nerd here…

[Eric laughs]

Alison: … but it’s so, so beautiful. So read the chapter, but then go back and read those first couple [of] pages because it’s beautiful. I just… Oh, I’ve forgotten how wonderful it was.

Meredith: Yeah, I love it. I think it sets the scene too a little bit for the joy later in the chapter. We’ll get there, but I think that announcement later in the chapter is a little bit jarring, given what’s going on around them, but the fact that it happens in this beautiful, serene, peaceful setting makes it a little bit more digestible.

Eric: I would actually really agree with that. And there is, of course, a passage of time – I think weeks – throughout this chapter, but you just get the sense… Well, they’re among family and friends for the first time too, so there’s this opportunity to see what everyone else is doing. The little moments between Harry and Fleur or Bill and Fleur in the background in this chapter were some of my favorites to read. Because we hadn’t seen them, and it’s just like, “What are they up to?”

[Alison and Meredith laugh]

Meredith: Just living the married life.

Eric: Also, you get a real sense of Bill. This is probably the most we’ve seen of Bill that I can recall.

Alison: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Eric: And seeing him regard Harry and how he regards Harry throughout this chapter is super important and really cool.

Megan: And Fleur too and what their marriage is like. Because that’s something that we never really get to see except for this chapter. It’s funny because Fleur takes on the Mrs. Weasley role, so you feel like they’re older.

Alison: Yeah!

[Eric laughs]

Megan: They’re in this peaceful place, they’re with family, everything’s normal, but it’s not. It’s a very interesting little scene that she sets here.

Meredith: Yeah. Harry even says at one point… It was a Mrs. Weasley-esque look on her face.

Alison: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan laughs]

Meredith: I highlighted that. I was like, “Oh my God, it’s great!” Especially when you think back to when Fleur was first in the house with everyone, and Mrs. Weasley was not having it.

[Alison laughs]

Meredith: It’s just great that she has picked up on these little things from Mrs. Weasley that she has taken on. It’s really cute.

Alison: Yeah. Well, speaking of that character development, we start this chapter with a really interesting look at how the trio has developed lately – or hasn’t in some ways. So the first thing I really picked up on was, it seems Ron hasn’t really learned some things yet that Harry definitely has. For example, they’re talking about Dumbledore and if he could have been playing in some of the things back, and Harry says, “Dumbledore would have gone on.” But Ron says, “What do you mean, ‘gone on’?” And it’s kind of this flashback all of a sudden to the end of Book 5, and it’s like, “Oh, Harry learned that years ago.” And you almost forget that Ron hasn’t learned that yet.

Eric: Well… and then for me, it took me back to Book 1, but then it was a conversation between Dumbledore and Harry. Because Dumbledore is talking about Nicolas Flamel, and he’s got that great line: “To the organized mind, death is but the next great adventure.” That for me is the perfect line to sum up why Dumbledore wouldn’t be a ghost.

Alison and Megan: Oh yeah.

Eric: He used death as the next step; he’s very clear about that. But then again, Ron wasn’t part of that conversation.

Megan: I also love this little conversation with Ron because when I read it, it made me think of JKR talking directly to her audience and being like, “Yes, Dumbledore is dead.”

Alison: [laughs] Yeah.

Megan: Because we had all these theories before the book came out. I just liked the way she debunked that within the story. I thought that was cool.

Meredith: I just wanted to point out… You bring up how Ron isn’t quite learning all the same lessons, and I noticed not just that one moment when he said, “What do you mean, ‘gone on’?” but I feel like there were four moments in this chapter where he was really immature, and that first one being “What do you mean, ‘gone on’?” Like, come on, Ron.

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Eric: Well, Ron, there’s this thing called ghosts.

Meredith: Yeah, come on.

Eric: It happens when you don’t want to do what Dumbledore did.

Meredith: And then secondly, the next moment I saw was when Griphook said, “I want the sword.” And Ron says, “We’ll give you something else out of the vault.”

Eric: Oh, God. He nearly botched the whole operation.

Alison: Yeah. Yeah, it’s a full…

Meredith: Yeah. And then when they’re discussing, “What are we going to do?” He’s like, “Oh, we’ll just give him the fake.” And then Hermione is like, “Are you ridiculous?” And he’s like, “Well, we’ll just run off before he notices.” What?

[Megan laughs]

Eric: That is kind of what they end up doing, right? I mean…

Meredith: I mean, they don’t try to give him a fake one. That was an awful suggestion. And I wondered why JK did that. And part of it, I think, was to juxtapose Harry’s maturity in this chapter. But it almost went too far for me. Because after that fourth mention when he’s like, “We’ll just run off after we give him the fake sword,” I was like, “What?” So I was a little bowled over by the immaturity of Ron, especially compared to Harry in this chapter.

Alison: Well, and I think some of this, too, could be a little bit… not backtracking and not excusing, but offering some explanation for why we shouldn’t be as mad at Ron for running off before. I feel like she’s almost trying to rebuild that again and just say, “Look, he hasn’t learned some of the lessons Harry has learned at this point. And so we can be okay with him now.”

Eric: That’s interesting because I was thinking… It was always consciously in my mind while reading this chapter, and the previous one before it, that Ron saved them by having run here the first time. This was a place that he knew to go [to]. And they chose this place [that] ended up being the right choice for many, many reasons because they can stage the plan, and they can interview Ollivander and Griphook separately and all of those reasons. Ron knew about this place and found this place, and he’s the reason they’re there, so good going, Ron. But then he almost botches the plan, and he says these things, and you just want to hit him at times.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: So it is very… I guess you just have to… As a reader, you can be wishy-washy.

Meredith: Yeah, and it didn’t hit me so hard the first time I read it. I think the first time I read it, Ron really represented the voice of the reader a little bit, especially because he keeps bringing up Dumbledore not being dead. And you just so badly want to hang on to that.

Megan: So as they’re going through this discussion with Griphook, and Griphook said, “I want the sword,” as the reader, you’re like, “Oh my God, we can’t give him the sword! What are we going to do?”

[Eric laughs]

Meredith: And you’re trying to think of “Oh, how are we going to get out of this?” And Ron voicing that idea of “Oh, we’ll just give him the fake one.” As the reader, when I was younger reading this the first time, I was like, “Yeah! Oh my God, brilliant!” But now it’s like, “No! That would never work.” So I think Ron does represent what the reader’s internal monologue might have been the first time they read this through.

Megan: I agree, and I think that she uses him to give herself the opportunity to explain within the text why those things won’t work.

Eric: Well, I think also, too – because at the end of the day they’re just going to barge in and hope for the best – at least now it’s nice to believe that there could be an alternative plan or that there could be something they’re trying to accomplish.

Megan: They plan, they get there, all hell breaks loose.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah, but that was always bound to happen, so this idea that “Oh, worst case scenario, there is a copy of the sword”; it’s like they have some options. So it’s a little bit better. They’re in a better situation planning for the break-in of Gringotts, a much better situation than they were with the Ministry. And so I think one of the things I had in this chapter was basically confidence that it would go off without a hitch, except to say that there is this personal interaction between Harry and Griphook, or Griphook and the children, that sort of deteriorates, as Alison pointed out in her summary. It might not work, but not because it’s Gringotts, the safest place in the world – well, except Hogwarts – the reason why it won’t work is because you actually probably can’t trust a goblin.

Alison: Moving on to another member of the trio, Hermione has had to backtrack a little bit on her previous skepticism about the Elder Wand.

Eric: That’s a beautiful paragraph.

Alison: Yeah, it’s so interesting to me that Hermione’s knowledge, and the thing they relied on her so much, is… JKR show[s] us the flaws in that in this chapter. And the fact that Hermione has to admit she was wrong, which… I can’t remember a time previous that she’s had to do that really.

Eric: Well, what it seems to be is that Ollivander in the previous chapter has admitted that he believes the Death Stick is a thing. And so now all of a sudden, she’s like, “Oh, well, okay. I guess it must exist.” But that’s so biased. Who is he to tell you if the Death Stick is a real thing? I mean, come on, really? He’s a Ravenclaw. He’s a world-renowned researcher. I would actually trust him, but he’s not really scientific proof that this is a real thing.

Alison: But he’s an expert. And Hermione has always trusted the experts.

Meredith: Yeah, if anyone is going to know, it would be Ollivander.

Eric: I suppose. But so I mentioned the paragraph being beautiful, but now that Hermione had to admit that it was really a thing, she just kept talking about how Dark it was and how Harry made the right choice for not choosing it. And I thought that was really, really nice. But she is… It’s hard for her to admit that she was wrong before.

Megan: She doesn’t do it incredibly gracefully.

[Everyone laughs]

Meredith: Yeah, she’s like, “Well, if I [were] wrong… Okay, fine, it does exist, but it’s evil, and we shouldn’t want it anyway.”

[Eric and Meredith laugh]

Alison: Well, speaking of Harry not acting, there’s a line here that really stands out to me, of showing how mature Harry is becoming. When it says, “He could never remember a time when he had chosen not to act.”

Meredith: I love that line.

Alison: I remember reading that line for the first time and just being like, “Whoa. That’s true.”

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Megan: He learned his lesson. e learned his lesson the hard way.

Eric: Sirius? Yeah. Was it that? And this is just playing devil’s advocate here because I felt that the choice not to act was pretty much forced upon him. I mean, the speed with which Voldemort was moving to the destination meant that they really would have had more than the usual odds stacked against them if they were to even try [to] race. Now, I agree with what Hermione says in this chapter: Harry couldn’t have desecrated the tomb. So there were certain barriers in place that I don’t think Harry ever would have been able to cross. So it was certainly the smart decision.

Megan: Yeah, but I’m just thinking…

Alison: But when has Harry ever really done the smart decision? [laughs]

Eric: I honestly think the odds were just too large to where if you value your own life, and at this point Harry does, you just wouldn’t.

Megan: But it still seems… Even considering all that, it’s still such a stretch from the things that he used to do. I’m still thinking about Order of the Phoenix…

Eric: I was going to say, “They all worked out.”

Megan: … and the fact that he was like, “Sirius is in trouble; I don’t care what else. We need to go to London right now. Stop preventing me from going to London. I’m going to break into the Ministry by myself.”

Alison: [laughs] Exactly.

Megan: He’s never really stopped to be like, “Well, I can’t really get there in time, and I would then have to do this and this, and that’s not really logical.” He’s never done that before.

Alison: Yeah, I first thought of Chamber. Odds were stacked against him, right? Huge, massive snake, and Ginny was probably dead, so… but still, he was like, “Let’s go. We’re going.”

Meredith: So what do you guys think has spurred this change in Harry? I think we all agree that this a big moment for him. But what do you think is…? I know what I think, but I want to hear what you guys think.

Alison: I think losing Dobby. I think seeing that loss of something, someone so brave and so innocent, takes a huge toll on Harry and makes him rethink everything.

Megan: I don’t know if I see any one specific moment, but more just the whole progression of this book and how much he’s been through already and the people [whom] he’s lost or had conflict with and the things that he’s seen… I just feel like you can’t experience all of that and not get to a point where you question yourself and you change.

Eric: I think it’s just Harry living up to the fact that he has just chosen Horcruxes over Hallows. He knew he needed to interview both of these guests while they were either still alive or still in one place, and I think his decision to deal with that pressing matter meant that he couldn’t go after the Wand. But also the Wand is a Hallow, and he’s chosen Horcruxes.

Meredith: Yes, I actually agree with you, Alison. I think Dobby’s death struck me in particular. But I think what it was about Dobby’s death was that other deaths that Harry has had to endure – not all of them, but other ones – it has been a leadership figure or someone older than him. A mentor, per se. And in this case, with Dobby’s death, something so innocent… In other cases, Harry was the innocent one [whom] people were dying to protect or had gotten in the way. But in this case with Dobby dying, it’s almost like Harry was like, “It’s not me anymore. I’m not the innocent one people are dying for. Dobby was the innocent. And because I’m not anymore, what does that make me? That makes me the leader. I need to take charge. I need to be rational. I need to be logical with how I decide to move forward on this.” I think he almost steps into Dumbledore’s mindset. He even says “for the greater good” in this chapter. So I really think that that shift is very apparent here and very mature of him.

Eric: That is a good point. So maybe it’s that he realizes now that to go anywhere is to send troops into battle. His friends. He’s realized that before, but now he’s thinking strategically and is like, “No, somebody just died for me, and I don’t want that to happen two more times today.”

Meredith: Yeah, and he is in control. He’s not being moved by some other player, whether it be Dumbledore or whoever else. He’s in charge, so he has to step into that role sooner or later. And he does.

Eric: I like now that he’s left in the opening days of this chapter to contemplate the repercussions of his decision. He’s still not… He’s not ignoring what he just did. He just realizes that it’s happened, and now hell has broken loose. Voldemort has the unbeatable wand. I think Ron, to his credit… I know we were talking about him earlier, but he actually says, “So what now? How can he be defeated now if he’s got this wand?” And it’s a good question.

Meredith: I like that he’s not just like, “I’ve made my decision, and I’m sticking to it. Let’s move on.” Maybe externally that’s how it looks. But he does question himself a lot and says that he can’t even recreate the arguments that he had when he made the decision.

Eric: Yeah, exactly. They felt weak and incomplete. That was really nice.

Meredith: It’s just interesting to see that change in him.

Alison: Eric brought up a little earlier about interviewing guests, which is actually the biggest point that happens in here. They’re making this plan to break into Gringotts. Which brings up a lot of really interesting questions about wizard and goblin relations. We touched on this last week, but Hermione says here at the beginning that there’s no historical evidence for… the biggest thing it comes down to is the sword. That’s kind of what brings this up. And Hermione says there’s no historical evidence that it really should belong to goblins, but she admits that wizards skate over things they do to other races, whereas Ron takes the other side and contends that it’s just a goblin made-up story and that goblins have fought dirty in the past. Which brings me to this question: Is this another case of Ron’s culturally ingrained insensitivity to other races?

Eric: Umm… maybe? I think that the goblins… Like, in that phrase, “fighting dirty,” it’s a perfect phrase to showcase what Ron has either come to believe or has been brought up to believe. It could be a learned prejudice like that. But “fighting dirty,” I think in terms of, if we’re all sentient magical beings and we’re at war, we’re probably going to do what we have to do to survive. So these incursions, you think, “Should Harry not have paid more attention in History of Magic?” This totally would have – I think – helped out a lot toward understanding goblins because they rebelled either against the Ministry or against each other so many, so many times. But I think that with Ron and his prejudice… I don’t think it’s necessarily unfounded. In the end, basically the end of what he’s saying is, “We have to be careful. You probably can’t trust this guy.” And Bill says it better. Bill knows them better. But Ron has basically just learned that you should probably stay away from goblins. Which, to be honest, as far as Ron is concerned, if he hadn’t become the best friend of Harry Potter and had to go to war and do all this other stuff, it’s probably good advice to stay away from goblins.

Alison: There'[re] so many interesting things. The reason I bring this up is because I noticed in this chapter this whole idea really brings up some real moral ambiguity that we haven’t really seen a lot in the series so far but is going to kind of become a regular thing as we keep going, about do ends justify means? Almost even to how much we can rely on history. He asks Hermione, “How do we know the goblin version of history is right?” And when Hermione asks him, “Does it make a difference?” He says, “It changes how I feel about it.” Which is like, wow, that’s true. How do we know which version of history is right? What if the sword [were] really Gryffindor’s and made for him? I mean, his name is carved into the sword. It’s in the craftsmanship. There [are] no real clues that it should belong to goblins at all. So it offers this very interesting gray area that isn’t really resolved.

Eric: Actually, I disagree because I do think that it is resolved come Bill. Obviously, it was unresolved enough even by the end of this book to have J.K. Rowling herself address it. Because she did. She actually…

Alison: Oh, did she? I missed that one.

Eric: Oh yeah. It’s so good. It’s so good. I think it’s on her Twitter. I could be wrong. But she basically ended up saying… Somebody asked her, and it’s like, “So where did that really net out with the sword of Gryffindor?” and her reply was that, all things considered, it was actually Godric Gryffindor’s. I think she said “probably,” but…

Meredith: Oh, I must have missed that.

Eric: She leant more credence to the Godric Gryffindor theory. But knowing what Bill says, I did feel like it was answered enough. Even if a goblin sells you their craftsmanship, this whole willing it to other people or having it transfer hands without further payment is the equivalent of stealing to them. As a race, that’s just what they think. So that really, to me, answers the question of whose is it? They feel if Godric Gryffindor isn’t still alive, a human shouldn’t be carrying it around the way that he did. It should be a goblin.

Megan: And Bill is a really good, trustworthy voice of reason here too because he is a wizard, but he’s spent most of his adult life around goblins. If you can’t trust Bill about this, then there’s really nobody else that you could listen to.

Alison: I feel like that still, though, causes some problems of which side you go on. Do you go on the wizard side, do you go on the goblin side? Trying to find the truth in between those two sides still becomes a problem.

Meredith: Do you guys think Harry did the right thing here?

Eric: I think that Harry absolutely made the best choice out of what was possible.

Megan: He didn’t have a whole lot of options.

Eric: And he realizes… This wasn’t driven home necessarily. It’s not overtly stated in this chapter. But it’s a choice between the Horcruxes or the only weapon they have to destroy the Horcruxes. And to make this deal with Griphook would be to give up your only weapon in exchange for your target.

Meredith: That’s no easy choice.

Eric: It’s no easy choice. Of course you would want to, and I think the right choice is to go for whatever’s going to get you the target because… And I’m surprised he didn’t call in Professor Hermione, who’s read the Horcrux book, [and asked], “What else can we do to destroy a Horcrux?” At this point… And I know it’s nearing the end of the school year, but they have to just get their hands on these Horcruxes. They have to. No matter what. They have got to start pulling some of these things together because Voldemort is not getting weaker, and that should be the priority regardless of… Losing the sword would be a tremendous blow.

Megan: And there’s only a set number of Horcruxes, whereas you can destroy them with a small number of things, but it’s a bigger number. You could get another weapon.

Meredith: Yes, I agree he made the best decision given his options. I was laughing, Alison, at your note in there where Hermione says, “We should just give him something else, something more valuable.” And Ron is like, “Sure, I’ll go get my other sword that I’ve got.”

Megan: Yeah, says Ron.

Eric: Other fake sword, goblin sword. Yeah, that was hilarious.

Alison: That’s one of my favorites. It’s so sassy.

Megan: Everyone always talks about sassy Harry.

Alison and Meredith: Sassy Ron.

[Alison, Megan, and Meredith laugh]

Eric: He says you can gift wrap it.

[Alison and Megan laugh]

Meredith: It made me wonder, is there anything else they could have given? When Hermione says, “We’ll just have to give him something else,” what is she even thinking of? I couldn’t think of what possible other option there was.

Eric: It’s interesting to analyze the Griphook side of things because he wants this sword. Harry knows, I think it’s [the] last chapter or the chapter before, Griphook is holding on to it, and all that’s said in the chapter – but it’s said, like, five times – [is] “Griphook was still holding the sword.” And that’s mentioned so many times: “Griphook had his hand on the sword, Griphook took the sword with him upstairs.” He clearly lusts over this sword, and I don’t think his motives are totally altruistic or totally “Oh, it’s for all goblins everywhere.” He’s not saying, “I’m making you this deal for this sword because all goblins should have it.” He’s saying, “I want that sword.” It’s personal gain on Griphook’s part, and it’s going to be hard or next to impossible to fault him to that to his face, but he is totally being selfish.

Meredith: I wondered about that, Eric, and I think I agree with you because when he says… That whole paragraph he said, “I reached my decision. I’m going to help you.” I put a note in the corner. It says, “Why?” What made him make that decision? And I think that you’re spot on when you say it wasn’t an altruistic thing. It was “I want that sword for myself.”

Megan: It’s interesting to me that she paints the only goblin that we’ve ever really gotten a good look at as such an unsympathetic character. I’m sure that not all goblins are like that, but I know it’s for the story, but it’s just interesting.

Meredith: I like that he’s gray because he has everything we just said. He’s not being very altruistic, blah, blah, blah, and they go on in the chapter to talk about how they didn’t really like working with him. They talked about…

[Eric laughs]

Meredith: … “Oh, maybe we’ll get to hurt some wizards.” It’s like, “I want to be violent,” and obviously, we are not really meant to like this guy, but at the end of the day, he’s helping them, and they need him. So as the reader, you’re really torn going back for more ambiguity. Do we like this guy? Probably not, but we need him, so he’s very essential, so the characters put up with him. It adds an interesting dynamic, not a black-and-white character. There’s a line in the text that Bill says. When he’s talking about how goblins are just a different species altogether, he’s like, “You have to look at this from a perspective of this guy’s not human. He won’t think and feel like you or I do.” And that’s fundamentally true, and so I think what it is too, we’re talking about him as if he were human by saying he’s unsavory or this, that, the other thing. But actually, it’s just that he’s different. It really just is that he’s different, and this is the extent to which. It’s a microcosm of how the greater wizard-goblin relations can or have existed. There will never be full trust or full understanding; they’re just too different. And so they forged this alliance, but of course, it’s an uneasy alliance, but it’s going to be productive. It’s going to get Harry what he needs, and it’s going to pan out, but ultimately, they don’t have to necessarily like each other, and it’s probably a metaphor for all sorts of other things, but I think…

Meredith: I was just going to ask, [are] there any parallels or a real-life situation?

Eric: Yeah, probably.

Alison: I feel like it goes to just different cultural ideals. It almost feels like… The first thing that popped to my head was Western culture versus Eastern culture, where they think and they view things as so different that sometimes it’s hard to try [to] see the other side and try [to] understand that other perspective when…

Meredith: That’s a great example.

Alison: … you just think you’re right.

Megan: That makes a lot of sense.

Alison: Yeah, and I think it’s interesting that I just realized that this feels like one of the first times this kind of issue really is coming up in this book or in this series. It’s so late, but it’s going to become so prevalent as they go on. I mean, Harry has to start casting Unforgivable Curses in the next chapter to try [to] get to the ends they need to get to, and so it’s a very interesting, very mature, difficult subject that she brings up to start playing with.

Meredith: Yeah, I love it.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: I do like it more that we’re contextualizing it here and going “Okay, but wait, what’s about to happen?” I like that a lot.

Alison: [laughs] All right, well, our next point… It’s a little smaller one but still on the same path of Harry growing up very, very quickly, suddenly, in this chapter. There’s a lot of guilt he feels as he goes through this chapter. He feels guilty about all the Weasleys being stuck at Auntie Muriel’s…

[Eric laughs]

Meredith: He should feel guilty for that.

Alison: He probably should, yes.

[Alison and Meredith laugh]

Alison: He feels so guilty when he’s talking to Fleur about all of them just crashing and taking over her whole space, which I thought was interesting that it’s Fleur that he goes to to apologize for that. What do you guys think?

Eric: Yes, I agree. I’m trying to reconcile because Fleur is so good at what she’s doing in this chapter. She’s running the household, she’s taking care of things, and she’s also this badass champion warrior, but she thanks him for saving her sister, and Harry gets stuck because he is… And this answers a question we asked long ago in Book 4 about whether or not Gabrielle was in any danger truly because it’s very ambiguous. But according to Book 7, Harry says, “No, she wasn’t in any danger” to himself. But whether or not that’s true, Fleur doesn’t have to put up with this. She is a badass. She is capable of kicking them out if they’re causing her trouble, but she realizes the importance in housing these people and going along with Harry’s wishes. And Bill and Fleur both put up and shut up in this chapter.

Alison: Yeah, definitely.

Eric: You’re imposing on us, but we’re going to deal with it because this is what’s necessary and Harry – so far as I can recall – never asked; he just showed up, and this is what they’re doing, and so Bill and Fleur are both tremendously awesome characters. And I think Harry doesn’t feel almost guilty enough for how much he’s imposing, but they are both just very interested in… They are making this happen.

Alison: They’re showing that strong, hardy Weasley character…

Eric: Yeah, you’re right.

Alison: … which I think is fantastic to have that back.

Eric: And for how little we’ve seen Bill in previous books, he totally is a Weasley coming through for this chapter, and Fleur is a Weasley coming through.

Megan: This might be a little bit off-topic and irrelevant, but I was thinking about how she was chosen as a Triwizard champion, and at the time, everybody was like, “Oh, she’s kind of weak, and she keeps losing all the tasks.”

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Megan: But she’s got this moral fiber that comes out later, and I wonder if that was part of why she was chosen.

Meredith: Oh, absolutely.

Alison: Oh, I definitely think that’s part of the choosing process.

Meredith: Yeah, I love that the goblin saw that in her before everybody else. I was like, “Oh, that girl. She’s so annoying.” And even all the Beauxbatons [students] rolled their eyes when she was picked.

Eric: I don’t remember that, but I do remember that she wasn’t very kind.

[Alison and Megan laugh]

Eric: Or successful, I should say, successful.

Megan: Right, and I don’t think that JKR would make her lose the first couple [of] tasks simply because she’s the female.

Alison: No, not at all.

Megan: I can’t see that being the reason.

Eric: Yeah, absolutely not.

Megan: So she might not be as physically able, but she’s morally very strong.

Eric: Her mental constitution is very up there.

Meredith: Did she lose the first one? I know she lost the…

Alison: The dragon? I think she does okay.

Meredith: I mean, Cedric’s head caught on fire, so I feel like he probably was the loser in that situation.

[Alison and Megan laugh]

Megan: One would think. I can’t remember. I just remember her just being unimpressive.

Eric: I think that was a sacrifice of having to get it between Harry and Cedric. Ultimately, if there'[re] four, and you’ve got to make two ahead, the other two are going to look bad.

Alison: So how, though, does this change in how Harry is seeing things? How does that affect what he does in the future?

Eric: His guilt?

Alison: Yeah, his guilt, and he’s starting to realize what’s going on outside of him and his little personal…

Meredith: Oh yeah, that guilt has played a huge part in his actions later on. I mean, fast-forwarding to the end with that walk into the forest, as soon as he figures out what his ultimate destiny is, there’s no hesitation. Obviously, no one is going to like, boom, sprinting headlong into that, but it’s not a question for him. He’s watched enough people give up enough things for him that when he has the chance to return the favor, it’s like, “Yeah, of course, absolutely. I’m going to do this.”

Eric: I’ve found Harry’s guilt in the past to be so restrictive or prohibitive. He tends to not let people go […] do things because he wants to do it all himself because he’ll feel too guilty if they die, but this is the first time where other people actually get to do stuff. Bill and Fleur are actively tending to the wounded, and he’s letting that happen. He’s not doing it himself. And moving forward to Hogwarts, you’re going to get scenes where Neville slays the snake because it’s just one of those things that needs doing, and Harry can’t be the one to always do all of it. So I think that maybe his guilt is… He’s managing it in a way that is going to allow him to feel more on top of it, but at the same time, he’s letting go a little bit, a lot of that control.

Megan: I see that, yeah.

Meredith: I agree.

Alison: And speaking of these outside things that are happening in the war, we said this is… It’s a nice moment that we get to see how everyone’s doing. We’ve been so focused on the trio for about half this book. So we get to see everyone else, and something that really struck me was, we get such a funny scene with Luna. And her just serene peacefulness, even through here… and Ollivander says that she was such a comfort.

Eric: [laughs] He means “kook,” but…

[Megan and Meredith laugh]

Eric: … he’s being nice about it.

Alison: But I wonder, just thinking of what Luna went through, I feel like this is a moment that, all of a sudden, you can’t see how Luna is the way she is as her being ignorant or naïve, but you’re definitely seeing her choosing to be this person.

Meredith: So Alison, I’m actually… I’m going to let you ask your question, but I [laughs] need to ask a question myself, and maybe, Megan, you’ll be the perfect person to answer this. As Luna comes back into the house, she’s describing some creature.

[Eric laughs]

Meredith: “Little tiny ears a bit like a hippo’s, purple and hairy, you have to hum and for a…” What is she talking about? Is that in Fantastic Beasts?

Alison: Crumple-Horned Snorkacks.

Megan: Oh, God, yeah.

Meredith: What is it?

Alison: It’s the Crumple-Horned Snorkacks because then she starts talking about the horn.

Meredith: Oh, it is! Okay. I wasn’t sure if it was a Hermione-related thing.

Megan: It was an Erumpent horn, and Luna was “No, no, it definitely wasn’t.”

Eric: [laughs] That’s my favorite line of the…

Meredith: Oh, you’re right. You’re right. She does say, “If you ever come, I’ll show you the horn.” Okay. I missed that part, and I’m looking at it. I’m like, “What on Earth is she describing?”

[Megan laughs]

Eric: Oh, sure. I didn’t know if it was two different creatures she was talking about. It could be all over the place. She could be talking about five creatures at once.

Meredith: Yeah, you never know with Luna.

Alison: That’s great. [laughs]

Eric: But I will say, I think the MVP of this chapter is – and it even beats out Lupin – is Dean for just keeping Luna company all of this time.

Alison: [laughs] That’s true!

Eric: They’re there for weeks, and she’s walking around telling him about creatures that probably don’t exist.

Alison: It’s precious, though.

Meredith: The description is that Dean is looking uncomfortable, and he just looks uncomfortable, and he’s…

[Alison laughs]

Eric: Dean is mesmerized…

Meredith: He’s like, “I’ve been putting up with this…”

Eric: Dean is not even paying attention.

[Alison laughs]

Megan: No, I think that they describe his expression as alarmed.

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Megan: I think that’s what Harry says.

Eric: “Get me out of here.”

Meredith: It says, yeah, “Looking uncomfortable, Dean shrugged at Harry as he passed.”

Eric: He has bitten the bullet. He’s…

Megan: That’s so great.

Alison: [laughs] Dean is fantastic.

Eric: He’s bearing down on this. Bless Dean.

Alison: I just pictured Alfie Enoch and Evanna Lynch doing this scene…

[Megan and Meredith laugh]

Alison: … and oh, man, why was this not in the movie? [laughs]

Eric: Dean is good, people. That’s what it comes down to. And he’s going to entertain Luna. He knows Luna, of course. They’ve been in the DA together by now, and he knows her, but he’s just allowing her to muse. And you’re right. Back to the point of Luna and how much of a refreshing welcome her personality type is. Amid this war, she’s still just choosing to be so not aloof. Not by any stretch of the imagination but hopeful, peaceful, not let down, not brought down.

Meredith: Yeah, she’s…

Eric and Meredith: … serene.

Alison: Also, we see Fleur’s concern. They talk about when Bill is gone that she just keeps checking the window. So we’re seeing, again, that idea of the worry over family, the worry over the people you care about the most at all points. And with Bill coming back, we get a little bit of an update on the Weasleys, on the rest of the Weasley clan. Which is nice. [laughs] And one of my favorite things is that Fred and George are still running Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes from owl order, out of Auntie Muriel’s backroom.

Megan: A window. [laughs]

[Meredith laughs]

Alison: But it hit me this time that they’re actually doing the very thing Harry told them to do when he gave them the startup money. That they’re providing laughs when…

Eric: … they’re desperately needed?

Alison: Yeah, and that’s just a beautiful little moment to add in there that… to know that, once again, the Weasleys are good people, and they’re just going to do good things throughout here.

Eric: That’s a good point.

Meredith: Alison, I love these points of all these outside effects of war and everything that’s going on outside of our little world of the trio where we’ve been so isolated because I think it’s really important for Harry to have that perspective of what kind of impact this is having on the outside world. And not to cross fandoms here, but Eric, I know you’ll appreciate this. This is why I like the fourth book in Game of Thrones so much – A Feast for Crows.

Eric: Ooh.

Meredith: Because I feel like the focus of that book is on the outside effects of war, and it lends so much perspective to the series, and I think that’s what Harry is getting a little bit in this chapter.

Eric: I’m like a third of the way through that book. I would already agree with you. So that’s awesome.

Meredith: I won’t give anything away, but…

Eric: Oh, okay. [laughs] Yeah, I honestly think that the greater world also could’ve just lost its hero, right?

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: Harry and Hermione and Ron came so close to being destroyed in the previous chapter, and I think that that, too, thinking about the wider wizarding world, I’m just like, “They all need to say their prayers and exhale deeply because they almost just lost their only shot.”

Meredith: So precarious.

Alison: Yeah, and then with the running theme of how the trio has changed, we see how on edge they are when Lupin comes to the door, which is juxtaposed with what happened when he showed up the last time, right?

Eric: Right.

Alison: Or even when they were at the Burrow before when they were in this home setting, but now, because they’ve been on the run for so long, they’re all on edge. They all whip out their wands. They all are freaking out a little bit because someone’s there [whom] they weren’t expecting.

Eric: He doesn’t make it easier, too, when he’s like, “You told me to come if there was an emergency.”

[Everyone laughs]

Megan: Oh my God.

Eric: Then he goes through all the security steps, and he’s verified. Then he’s like, [breathes heavily] “It’s a boy.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh my God! But he still used the word “emergency,” and I was thinking…

[Alison laughs]

Eric: “Oh no. What’s going on? He’s trying to freak them out.”

Meredith: I remember being so nervous the first time I read this. I felt my heart pounding. “Oh, God! Oh, God! What is it now?” And that just makes the relief of good news even better.

Eric: I think that’s exactly it. And as interested as I am by Lupin in this chapter – and I want more with him – there isn’t a private scene between h[im] and Harry where they sort of talk, and it’s glossed over for probably more than one good reason. Basically, because this is meant to be relief of suspense.

Alison: This is the last time we see Lupin alive, I think.

Eric: Ooh, that’s sad. That’s really sad.

Megan: Oh no!

Alison: I just realized that. [laughs]

Eric: But also, it is stated that the events following Lupin’s departure – or of Lupin’s departure last time – might have never happened based on the relationship between them now. Lupin asked Harry to be his godfather. Obviously, that is super important in basically making Teddy an orphan by the end of the book on JKR’s part.

Alison: Oh! We haven’t even announced.

Eric: Thanks, JKR.

Alison: We haven’t even announced – Teddy! Teddy is here!

Megan: Yay!

Alison: [laughs] Teddy has been born! [laughs] This is our last point. [laughs] We just segued right in, I just realized that. Sorry, but yes.

Eric: Oh, I thought we were there.

Alison: No, [laughs] we were, but we hadn’t said…

Megan: We didn’t officially say it.

Alison: … “and then Teddy is born” and then gone on from there. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, okay. This is the fifth point of the chapter discussion that we’re talking about now – Teddy.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Lupin, though, asks Harry to be a godfather, but it’s not a private conversation, and everybody hears, and everybody cheers him on. That’s great. It’s a family moment, but there still isn’t this understanding between them, and I really wonder because, based on what the relationship was between Harry and Lupin in Book 3, I really expected more talking between those characters in their life.

Meredith: I always want more Harry/Lupin. Come on.

Eric: This, again, would be a good opportunity. Now, it’s not his moment to shine, granted. Bill has a lot of experience with goblins. That is the topic at hand that needs discussing. That’s fair, but Lupin just shows up in such these peppered places where he can’t be fully utilized to be Harry’s next best choice of guardian or parent, but by this point, Harry has lost so many guardians and parents.

Megan: Right. That’s such a tragic theme in his life that it just makes sense because he lost his parents before he could ever talk to them. He lost Sirius when he really had never gotten the time to spend with Sirius that he was promised, that they would live together or whatever, and now Lupin too. It just… right down the line. [laughs]

Meredith: Can I just point out that when Lupin shows up, before he says that, and everyone’s tense and pointing their wands, it says,

“Griphook slipped beneath the table, out of sight.” And all I can say is, you know when little kids are really pouty and they slink off their chair? That’s what I pictured, and I literally highlighted it and wrote “Ha!” in the margin because I just…

[Megan laughs]

Meredith: The visual of him sliding off this chair as everyone else is tense and holding their wands, and he just slinks out of sight…

[Alison laughs]

Eric: I am glad that you brought that up because…

[Alison laughs]

Eric: … the characterization of Griphook… I know we talked about it at length moments ago, earlier in the episode, but he was taking dinners in his room even though his leg had healed up. And then apparently Fleur threw a fit, and Bill said, “No, this isn’t going to work.”

Meredith: “You’ve got to come downstairs.”

Eric: “You have to come […] eat with us.” And even though he doesn’t eat the same thing, and she goes into detail about what he actually eats – it’s like fungus and raw meat – but he is still a concentrated presence there, and to be fair, even though he’s under the table, he stays for a real long time during Lupin’s visit too.

Meredith: Yeah, and it does say that eventually he creeps off, but I just thought that was hilarious.

Eric: He creeps off, but it’s after the third goblet is refilled, which is cool. So I actually am interested, just in general, in… Griphook obviously isn’t contributing to the conversation in a major way. Otherwise, he would have more dialogue than just to comment on the tiara when the tiara is in the room. That’s all he says the entire time he’s downstairs.

Meredith: I don’t even know. Does he say something?

Eric: But he’s still there, and I think there is something about hospitality or rules of hospitality. Nnow I’m thinking of Game of Thrones again, but that goblins must understand, to a point, because he is being a… not productive. He’s being a participant. If you’re under this roof, if you’re in this home, you cannot sideline yourself all the time. And whatever Bill says to get through to him works, and he still is here. He could not care less about Teddy Lupin and the interaction of these people. I’m sure he’s bored to tears.

Meredith: But he’s there.

Eric: As evidenced by him slinking under the table, but he’s still there.

Meredith: He’s giving craps. Small craps.

Eric: Small? [laughs]

Eric: Non-human-sized craps.

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: Oh no.

Eric: Oh, God. We’re going to get so much hate mail.

[Alison, Megan, and Meredith laugh]

Alison: Well, the last point for this episode, then, of this chapter, is actually the last line of this chapter.

Eric: Ooh.

Alison: Where Harry has just been talking to Bill, and he says that maybe he’s a little drunk [laughs], but he thinks to himself, “He seemed set on course to become just as reckless a godfather to Teddy Lupin as Sirius Black had been to him.” Is this a valid thought?

Eric: Hmm. Yes and no. What Harry is about to do is very reckless.

Meredith: I think Harry has a little bit of a track record of being reckless, though. Not as bad as Sirius, but a little bit.

Eric: Yeah. I think it’s [a] very interesting perspective. I would agree now that Harry has grown up because he has this perspective of “Man, what will my godson think of me?”

[Alison and Meredith laugh]

Eric: Ten years down the line. Harry has all of a sudden this concept that there will be a future ten years from now when he’s older and some kid’s looking up to him. That’s profound, actually. But I don’t know if it’s fair, necessarily, because I always think of Sirius so fondly as being the most reckless, crazy guy.

[Alison laughs]

Megan: With his motorcycle.

Eric: “Flying motorcycle.” That says it all. And Harry does love the broomsticks, but I just think that he could never come… oh, Harry wishes he were Sirius one day.

Alison: Just as I was thinking about this – and I wonder what you guys think of the conclusion I came to – was that, like we were saying, Sirius’s recklessness really comes out of that’s just who he is as a character, and sometimes he even goes above that because he’s desperate. For example, breaking into the Gryffindor tower.

[Meredith laughs]

Alison Things like this where Harry’s recklessness, to me, seems more like it comes out of necessity. It comes out of when Harry feels like he has no other option except for to do the crazy thing.

Meredith: But I would draw a parallel between those: Sirius’s desperation and Harry’s necessity. Sirius breaking into the tower, Harry breaking into Umbridge’s office.

Alison: That’s a good point.

Meredith: If you look at it that way. There [are] parallels there.

Eric: Yeah, there are. I’m trying to figure out the role of a godfather, in general, in the wizarding world anyway because I can’t imagine that they’re Catholic.

Meredith: Yeah, that’s a good point.

Eric: In general, and it’s just basically like guardian if the parents die, right?

Alison and Megan: Yeah.

Alison: And I feel like godparents are a very British just culture thing. Someone correct me if I’m wrong. This is why we need Rosie, but I feel like it’s just a very British thing to, like you said, have someone in case something happens to the parents. To have another adult to be a good influence on the kid, to look up to.

Meredith: Yeah, I think… I don’t know about [the] UK, but here, I think there’s that element to it, but I think “godfather” did carry that connotation of religious aspect to it. I don’t know if that’s the case.

Eric: I think, too, that Remus must have thought that Harry would survive this battle. [laughs]

Alison: Oh, that’s a good point!

Megan: That’s true.

Eric: That’s the ultimate vote of confidence.

Megan: That’s true.

Eric: “You’re not about to go die on me are you, Harry? Because I would have asked Ginny, then.”

[Alison, Megan, and Meredith laugh]

Eric: Or somebody. That’s a good show of faith on Remus’s part.

Meredith: I had never thought of that.

Alison: That’s a really good point. I had never thought of that.

Megan: I never thought of that either. Aww, now I’m upset again.

Eric: [laughs] Oh, this chapter moves us in so many different ways. Like the waves of the ocean crashing up against the cliff.

Alison: Aww.

Meredith: Oh, great, great job.

Eric: The ebb and flow like a beast breathing…

[Megan and Meredith laugh]

Eric: I love the writing.

Meredith: So beautiful.

Alison: Well, with that, then, I guess we will leave Harry to his thoughts of Sirius and end our chapter.

Eric: But we won’t end it completely because now we go on to the Podcast Question of the Week. So here it is: It is centered on Bill Weasley, who is a good guy portrayed by a really good actor, who[m] I can’t stop watching in movies.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: But the Podcast Question of the Week this week is, in this chapter, Bill Weasley correctly guesses that the trio [has] made a deal with Griphook and cautions Harry heavily to be careful. In light of Bill’s excellent advice, should Harry be reexamining the plan that he has formed? Should he have entrusted Bill with the plan thus far and sought his unique perspective for an alternative? Or is Harry motivated by the desire to keep Bill and his family safe and resolved to accept the dangers that lay ahead? Really interested in hearing what all of our listeners think about this, so head on over to the Alohomora main page at alohomora.mugglenet.com and click on “Podcast Question of the Week” for Episode 176 to get the discussions going.

Alison: And all that really remains is for us to thank Meredith for joining us. Thank you so much, Meredith, for chiming in today.

Meredith: Oh, this has been… My birthday is tomorrow, so this is like an early birthday present.

Alison: Oh!

Alison, Eric, and Megan: Happy Birthday! [laugh]

Alison: That’s so exciting.

Meredith: So this is an early present for me. Absolute, absolute treat. Thank you, thank you very much for thinking of me.

Eric: [as Dumbledore] Another year, gone.

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: And we also want to thank Megan for stepping in today too. Thank you so much for filling in for us.

Eric: Yeah!

Megan: Absolutely.

Eric: Oh, man.

Alison: And everyone go listen to SpeakBeasty right now, as soon as you’re done.

Meredith: I’m going to do it.

[Megan laughs]

Eric: Yes, click on the… Hopefully, listeners have lived up to our expectations and were downloading all the episodes of SpeakBeasty during the listening to this podcast.

[Alison and Meredith laugh]

Megan: Yeah, that would’ve been a really efficient way to do it.

Eric: And now you can start right when it ends.

Meredith: Is it weird if I admit that I definitely did that as soon as you said it at the beginning of the episode?

Eric: See?

Meredith: Yes!

Eric: More people should be like Meredith.

[Meredith laughs]

Megan: You should be hearing me talk constantly. All the time.

[Everyone laughs]

Meredith: There is no better way to spend my time.

Eric: So if you would like to be on the show like Meredith, there are still a few opportunities before we wrap Deathly Hallows. And as we mentioned, we do have a game plan for afterward, but in the meantime, the surest way to be on our show is to be with us during Deathly Hallows, and in order to find out how to do that, visit the “Be on the Show!” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. No fancy equipment is needed. You do need some headphones and [a] mic, but that could be Apple headphones or any number of other things. So go check it out. There’s a process – a helpful rubric or document – to help you out, and that’s all on our website.

Megan: And if you want to check us out on social media there are a lot of ways to stay in touch. You can follow us on Twitter at @AlohomoraMN, on Facebook you can like our page at facebook.com/openthedumbledore, on Tumblr we are mnalohomorapodcast, and on Instagram we are @alohomoramn. Our website is alohomora.mugglenet.com, where you can download a free ringtone or you can send an owl to audioBoom at alohomora.mugglenet.com, which is free, but we appreciate if you keep your messages under 60 seconds.

Eric: Yes! And check out our store. “We sell stuff”…

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Eric: … has become the new slogan [for] Alohomora!‘s store, but actually, there’s a lot of stuff. Many, many catchphrase-laden baggies and jandals and all sorts of stuff. So go check that out. Also on our website, the Alohomora! store and proceeds, of course, help support us to continue to create this show and pay for the hosting bill and any number of other things. So we appreciate it if you want to get some Alohomora! merch.

Alison: And make sure you check out our smartphone app. You can download it for free. Just search “Podcast Source” in your phone’s app store, and there [are] all sorts of awesome things on there. We were talking earlier about the videos that Kat and Kristen and I made at Universal Studios Orlando, which were really fun, and we’re excited to share them with you guys.

Eric: I have a feeling we’ll be getting one of those for this episode.

Alison: Yeah, probably.

Eric: Really excited. Everything down there looked just like amazing, amazing fun.

Alison: Oh, I could go on for hours.

Eric: Well, everybody, we want to thank you for listening. I’m Eric Scull.

[Show music begins]

Megan: I’m Megan Kelly.

Alison: And I’m Alison Siggard. Thank you for listening to Episode 176 of Alohomora!

Megan: Open the Dumbledore.

[Show music continues]

Meredith: So [I’ve got to] admit, when I got that email today asking to be on the show, I had checked my call wall at my desk, and my boss happened to be walking by my desk to ask me a question exactly when I opened the email. So I had this look on my face like complete shock and excitement, and she’s standing there. And I look up at her, and I’m like, “Yes?” And she’s like, “What’s wrong?” And I couldn’t even process it at that moment. I was like, “I’m not even sure. It’s good, but what do you need first while I process that?” So it was really funny.

Eric: That’s super funny. She’s like, “You’re too happy. This clearly isn’t work related.”

Meredith: She’s like, “Is everything okay?” I was like, “Everything is fabulous.” [laughs]

Eric: Huh. That is funny.

Megan: That is good.