Transcript – Episode 140
[Show music begins]
Michael Harle: This is Episode 140 of Alohomora! for June 6, 2015.
[Show music continues]
Michael: Welcome back, listeners, to another episode of Alohomora!, MuggleNet.com’s global book club reread of the Harry Potter series. I’m Michael Harle.
Eric Scull: I’m Eric Scull.
Kristen Keys: And I’m Kristen Keys. And this week we have a special guest with us: Danielle. Say hello, Danielle.
Danielle Karthauser: Hi, everyone.
Eric: Tell us about yourself, Danielle. Wh[ich] Hogwarts House are you in? Come on down. Come on down.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Danielle: I’m a Hufflepuff.
Michael: Yes!
Eric: Yay!
[Michael laughs]
Danielle: I know, right?
[Danielle and Michael laugh]
Eric: I actually shouted so loud that my earbuds fell out.
[Danielle and Michael laugh]
Eric: I leaned back and pulled out my earbuds. Yes, Hufflepuff! Puff pride.
Michael: Danielle, are you on the main site or the forums?
Danielle: I am, but it’s very rare because usually I listen to the show a week after it premieres, so I don’t get to comment in time.
Michael: Oh, what’s your username there?
Danielle: It’s probably just my name: Danielle Karthauser.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Eric: Yeah, Danielle doesn’t play that game of trying to come up with the wittiest…
[Danielle, Kristen, and Michael laugh]
Eric: I respect that.
Danielle: I know; I’m not as creative.
Michael: She’s like, “I got nobody to impress.”
[Danielle and Michael laugh]
Michael: That’s good. Well, Danielle, what is your background with Harry Potter? When did you get into it?
Danielle: I got into it when I was around ten. Before I got into it, I thought it was stupid, and then I actually saw at Toys ‘R’ Us a big setup of the first three books, and I was like, “Wow, these actually look pretty awesome.” And so I bought the second one, and…
Michael: Aww, nice.
Danielle: … I’ve been hooked ever since.
Michael: Oh, you were a convert. Yay!
[Kristen laughs]
Michael: We love those.
Danielle: I know.
Michael: It’s nice to be able to actually show people that it can be done.
Eric: Oh, yeah.
Michael: You can be turned from a hater to a lover.
Eric: Is that shocking? Because I feel like anybody [who] actually has read the books, oh, immediately…
[Danielle laughs]
Michael: Well, there are people who can be super adamant about not reading the books.
Eric: Oh, yes. Yeah, well, that’s true.
Kristen: Very true. Very true.
Danielle: That’s true. I have a friend who doesn’t like them at all. She’s read all seven.
Michael: Oh, goodness.
Eric: Wow.
Danielle: It’s sad, I know.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Some people can’t be reached, I guess, by the divine hand.
Kristen: It’s a pity.
Michael: It can happen.
[Danielle and Michael laugh]
Danielle: It can.
Michael: Well, we’re glad to have you on the show, Danielle.
Danielle: Thank you. I’m happy to be here.
Eric: For Danielle and us, we are going to be getting into a lovely discussion on everyone’s favorite chapter from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 22, called “After the Burial,” and that is the discussion for today, so definitely make sure that you have read that chapter. [whispers] Hint: It’s the chapter with Felix Felicis.
Michael: [whispers] But it’s not called Felix Felicis because that’s a different chapter.
Eric: [whispers] It’s not called… that’s a different chapter.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Eric: Before going on with our main discussion.
Kristen: Yes, we are going to go into our recap comments from last week, Chapter 21. Our first comment comes from SlytherinKnight, and they say,
“Thank YOU!!!!! Thank you so much for talking about how Harry is so lazy in [Half-Blood Prince]!!!!! I can’t recall which host talked about it early on in the episode, but that has always been my biggest peeve with Half[-]Blood Prince, even more so than the romance that is thrust upon us in the book. My favorite books were books 3-5 because we see Harry actively trying to better himself and growing into the powerful wizard that we know he can be. But then in Half[-]Blood Prince, Harry pretty much becomes Ron [-] he constantly looks for the easy way out of doing things (getting Slughorn’s memory, using the Potions books, etc.) In [Prisoner of Azkaban], we see Harry actively seek out Moony to learn the Patronus Charm; in [Goblet of Fire], Harry learns a ton of new spells for the Tournament and then in [Order of the Phoenix], teaching the DA and learning even more spells, but in [Half-Blood Prince], Harry regresses to someone who must have everything handed to him. I feel that [J.K. Rowling] really did Harry a disservice by having his character fall so much after [Order of the Phoenix] from a powerful wizard who is still growing into his own to a lazy, plodding boy [who] must have things handed to him or seeks out the easiest path to figure things out.”
Eric: Ooh. Burn.
Kristen: [laughs] I know.
Danielle: Ouch.
Michael: No!
Danielle: Poor Harry.
Eric: Somebody get Charlie on the line.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Eric: A dragon burn.
[Danielle, Kristen, and Michael laugh]
Michael: Noo. That… no. [laughs]
Kristen: I thought it went a little too much. I don’t think Harry is that lazy. I think he’s just a 16-year-old boy.
Eric: See, it is an interesting take, though, to see Harry as active, active, active, and then not.
Michael: And that’s the reason I like this book, actually, is because… and there’s a moment I can’t… I think it was in the previous chapter or one right before it, where isn’t it that Harry and Ron and Hermione are sitting around outside, and they see two characters who[m] we’ve never seen before called the Montgomery sisters, and Ron is like, [as Ron] “Why are they looking so sad?” And Hermione is like, [as Hermione] “Because their brother died?”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Or something to that effect. Something horrible happened to their brother. I don’t remember if he was the one who died or if he was the… I think he was the one who died.
Eric: Yeah, he died. He was bitten by Fenrir Greyback.
Michael: I think that encompasses what this is talking about. When a threat is not an immediate threat, it does become less important to you when you’re a teenager. If it’s not your immediate world that’s been affected… and Harry’s immediate world, I think in the previous books, has been affected. A perfect example of what SlytherinKnight is saying: “My favorite books were 3-5 because we see Harry actively trying to better himself and growing.” It’s because he has to. [laughs]
Eric: Well, yeah, I would make a different attempt at also disagreeing this comment, in that for me, the big… Harry’s activeness gets him into trouble. He gets Sirius killed by taking his fiends and acting on the false experience and going to the Ministry, and I always felt that Book 6 was a natural recourse to his over-the-top, always-want-to-get-out-there. He is learning and studying what he needs to do to defeat Voldemort. There’s nothing… I mean, it’s more passive Harry, but certainly not lazy. I mean, for the first time also, Dumbledore has reached out to Harry and is saying, “Let me teach you. Let me help you,” which is what he should have done from the beginning. He should always be Harry’s No. 1 teacher because of the overall plan, in my opinion, but this is the year that he does that, and so Harry is forced into a more passive or receiving role than the active, getting the DA together. And I understand that. It’s perfectly valid to feel the way SlytherinKnight does. But I just always felt that it was a progression more than a setback.
Michael: Yeah, I’ve never seen it as a character regression because it’s not that Harry has completely disregarded what he’s learned. The book goe to lengths to show us that he hasn’t disregarded.
Eric: Except all the spells.
Michael: Well, but he does that every year.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: And I mean, really, when SlytherinKnight was saying, too, he’s become more like Ron, Harry has a lot of similarities to Ron. He always has.
Eric: Pretty much the same person.
Michael: He’s Ron 2.0.
[Danielle and Kristen laugh]
Eric: You’re going to get a lot of hate mail about that.
Michael: Well, I’m sure I am, but it’s… I’m sorry, you guys, but he does get better grades than Ron, and he actually tries a least a little harder than Ron. [laughs]
Kristen: I love Ron, so I don’t have a problem. [laughs]
Michael: Oh, I love Ron too. He’s a great character, but it’s… I mean, if we’re staggering them, y’all know what the order is. It’s Ron, Harry, Hermione. Come on.
Eric: Oh, Hermione is the best student, though. If we’re staggering them by students.
Michael: Hermione wins all of them.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Kristen: All right, and then our next comment comes from Hufflepug:
“I remember several months ago one of the brilliant [commenters] here (looking back now – it was SheFlooLikeAMadman on Episode 96 […]) was talking about how they thought the Room of Requirement was Helga Hufflepuff’s special contribution to Hogwarts because it gives students what they need without judging them, so you could say that it’s loyal to Hogwarts and fair to all of the students. This chapter shows how there’s a dark side to that: the room becomes loyal to Draco and won’t let Harry in, even though Harry is trying to stop Draco’s evil plans. Like us Hufflepuffs, it can be loyal to a fault and can fail to account for the bad aspects of whatever it is someone wants to do in there because it has an obligation to meet their needs. I just think that’s a cool way to tie this to the conversation about the dark side of Hufflepuff that you guys talked about [last] week!”
Michael: Wow.
Eric: The dark side of Hufflepuff.
Kristen: I know. It just seems… [laughs]
Eric: Danielle, as a Puff, do we have to come move you?
Danielle: Oh, yes.
[Danielle and Kristen laugh]
Eric: I am profoundly moved right now.
[Danielle and Kristen laugh]
Michael: I think that’s cool: the idea that maybe even this suggests that all four of the founders left some larger room. We know Slytherin’s contribution.
Eric: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, it is interesting to think that there would be a chamber of everybody. But at the same time, you can’t imagine somebody who’s not a founder of Hogwarts building the Room of Requirement because the Room of Requirement is so well tied in to the greater part of Hogwarts. Of course there’s a room that will be a bathroom if you need one. Because the school is confusing and hard to navigate, and we don’t like messes, so it fits in to the bigger picture in such a way. You can’t imagine somebody else later than the founders coming and building it, so the idea is, if it’s one of the founders, why not Hufflepuff? And I love that.
Michael: Yeah, it’s interesting with the things like the Chamber of Secrets and such, there came along a… because I think in Book 1 there’s a lot of suggestions that the school is alive and that it made some of the stuff up on its own, but as the books go on, in Chamber we find out that it was Slytherin who put the Chamber there. I think it was extra-canonical material that we found out that Ravenclaw did the staircases, and…
Eric: Oh, no way!
Kristen: I didn’t know that.
Danielle: Neither did I.
Michael: Yeah, she contributed the staircases, and then there’s also the suggestion that Hufflepuff might have done – this is a theory – the Room, so… and I think we got that throughout the series, that there were these things that were like, “Oh, it’s just magic,” but actually, as the series goes on, there’s a concrete explanation for a lot of things. “No, this is just people doing crazy, selfish things.”
Eric: Yeah, I mean, I love that we haven’t heard that it’s Hufflepuff’s Room of Requirement. There’s certainly not an insignia on the outside of it, with the [unintelligible] and the badger, and I like that about it, and that also fits with Hufflepuffs. We’re not braggarts. It’s just what Hufflepug was saying about how it doesn’t judge. It’s going to be fair to the students; it gives them what they need without judgment.
Danielle: And it is beautiful to think about the fact all the Hogwarts founders left some contribution to make their lives move forward as the school reflects what they did. They’re living on through the school.
Michael: I guess you could say that Gryffindor’s contribution is the Sorting Hat then, huh?
Eric: Yeah, I was going to say that. Yeah, absolutely. It’s weird because that would almost be.. I mean, it’s a thinking cap. [laughs]
Michael: Well, yeah, it’s all of them.
Eric: He’s not the smart House, but yeah, it is all of the judge of character. I don’t know. I guess it’s a pretty bold act to give a kid a House for seven years that they can’t change.
Michael: Gryffindor’s hat, Ravenclaw’s stairs, Slytherin’s chamber of evil and death and horribleness…
Eric: Which only one person has ever entered.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: In the last hundred years, only two people have ever entered it.
Michael: Somebody should ask Rowling about this on Twitter because I want official confirmation on what Hufflepuff put in the school.
Eric: Yeah. Love that thought.
Kristen: Our next comment comes from daveybjones999, and they said,
“About Tonks showing up and finding Harry, this is the third time in this book that Tonks runs into Harry like when she stopped him from killing Mundungus in Hogsmeade earlier in the book and when she found him on the Hogwarts [E]xpress. I always thought that Dumbledore asked her to keep an eye on Harry and that Tonks had just been making weak excuses because Dumbledore probably told her not to let Harry know that she’s been tailing him.”
Michael: It’s funny that this came up this way because I always thought this.
Eric and Kristen: Really?
Kristen: I never really thought it, but then when reading this comment, I was like, “That’s a pretty good idea. She probably was.”
Eric: Yeah, my whole thing is, it was explained away later that she was in love with Lupin, and then that was her heartbreak, so I also feel like, because she has this heartbreak and it’s changing her Patronus – which is a big deal – that she’s in no fit state to do missions for Dumbledore, even if it’s just a surveillance, surveying Harry. She’s probably not the right person to ask if you want to get a job done, and Dumbledore probably knows that. Unless she was begging him to feel useful about something because she feels worthless and she’s lost in love, but… I don’t know. I felt that she’s just lost, and she’s just wandering around and when they meet each other, it’s fortunate that she’s there, especially in the Mundungus case, I guess, but yeah, I just always thought of them as chance occurrences. I like the idea that they’re not, but I think they probably are.
Michael: I think I was just working off of the stuff that was developed from Book 5, where Harry was constantly under guard and while, as SlytherinKnight mentioned earlier, Harry and some of the others are dropping the ball at school, and the students don’t really seem to care about the threat around them unless they are immediately affected, I don’t think Dumbledore has been so casual as to forget that certain people are still big assets to him and in danger. I mean, he’s still working very hard to ensure that Trelawney doesn’t leave because he knows she’s in danger.
Eric: That’s definitely evidenced by this book, yeah.
Michael: And he’s choosing not to completely bar Harry from going to Hogsmeade, so why not say, “Oh, Tonks, maybe keep an eye on him…” Because I did think it was way too much of a coincidence that he would just run into her three times at important moments, and I know the hosts last week suggested that maybe this was a remnant of a lost plot. And maybe that is the lost explanation, is that somewhere it was going to be causally mentioned that Tonks has been tailing Harry.
Kristen: Well, thank you so much for sending in your comments everybody, but that is all we have for right now.
Michael: And yet there’s still more…
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: … from last week!
Eric: Much, much more!
Michael: But something different. We’re focusing in on the Podcast Question of the Week responses, which are a little more focused than the comments because we have asked, fittingly, about Moaning Myrtle, who[m] we finally know the full name of, and our question is “Why is Draco talking to Myrtle? Is it because she is there and he can charm her into keeping his secrets? Is she simply sympathetic to his vulnerable state? Does she see herself in him? Did he mention that he was a Death Eater or that Lucius was his father? What exactly is Draco telling Myrtle?” Our first response comes from Celestina Is My Homegirl. Somebody is obviously trying to get my attention [laughs] because I agree. Something I find…
Eric: Well, it worked, didn’t it?
Michael: It did.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Michael: Because you got a comment [o]n the show.
“Something I find fascinating about this arrangement (even though I don’t 100% subscribe to circle theory) is how in the second book, Ginny offloading her feelings into Tom Riddle’s diary causes Voldemort to get into her head, while Malfoy offloading his feelings to Myrtle is a way for Malfoy to get all the Voldemort out of his head.”
Thoughts?
Eric: Huh. I like that.
Michael: Danielle, how do you feel? What are your feelings on ring theory?
Danielle: I actually do believe in it.
Michael: Oh!
Danielle: I guess I would say a hundred percent. Sometimes I question it, but I do pretty strongly believe in it.
Michael: Go with 99.99999%.
Danielle: There you go.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: I like that just general Myrtle connection between [Book] 2 and [Book] 6. I like that.
Michael: Well, Danielle, do you think things like this…? Because I know ring theory tends to come out of things that are a little more concrete, such as the Vanishing Cabinet being a connection…
Eric: Oh, yeah. Much easier comparison to draw between Books 2 and 6.
Michael: Yeah. Do you think, Danielle, that this stretching of that concept is still valid for ring composition?
Danielle: I mean, I really like this comment, but at the same time, it is stretching it a tiny bit. But it still is valid. It seems almost like narrative transformation in that in Book 2, it’s somebody like Ginny pouring her heart into the diary, where Malfoy’s trying to escape from Voldemort’s grip. So it’s like pouring your heart out versus escaping. So that’s how I see it.
Michael: Well, and we’ve got this case of two innocents, really, when the books come out. I mean, Malfoy… I have qualms about calling Malfoy “a complete innocent,” myself, but I know most of the fandom does not and that’s the…
Eric: He broke Harry’s nose.
[Danielle and Michael laugh]
Michael: But yeah, no, I thought that was worthwhile to… And I think just as much we get many arguments, and we’ve even discussed them on the show, where it’s like, “Well, you can make a connection between 1 and 6 or 2 and 7, and does that break down ring theory? Does that mean that ring theory is invalid?” Possibly. But I think ring theory… Even if it’s not actually in practice, it’s a fun way to actually find connections like Celestina Is My Homegirl found here. It encourages us to maybe look for those connections that may have been intentional or not.
Eric: Ever since I heard of ring theory too, I like the idea that Jo is such a good writer that she not only can just do those props, like the Vanishing Cabinet, but [also] actually to connect character situations to other books. It’s really cool. She’s taking it to the next level.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Michael: She always seems to do that, doesn’t she? Our next comment comes from one of my favorite usernames…
[Danielle, Kristen, and Michael laugh]
Eric: This is… Go home, everybody.
[Danielle and Michael laugh]
Eric: After this, just name yourselves after your name like Danielle did. This username…
Kristen: I love it.
Michael: This comment comes from Protego My Eggo.
[Eric, Kristen, and Michael laugh]
Michael: Oh, man. Well done, sir.
[Eric laughs]
Michael: But according to Protego My Eggo… They had a very interesting comment:
“Regarding Myrtle’s perspective, she seems happy, almost vindicated, because a student is finally giving her the time of day. Whenever Malfoy began making a habit out of escaping to the bathroom and releasing his emotions and fears, that must have led Myrtle to interpret his visits as a means of befriending her. Harry intentionally avoids the area around the bathroom she inhabits, and it’s clear from Chamber of Secrets that the young ladies of Hogwarts can’t pee when she’s wailing. She finally has a frequent visitor, and how lucky is she that said visitor claims he feels bullied, isolated, and scared? The last moments of her own life were spent experiencing similar (if not the same) emotions. I expect ghosts spend most of their existence as imprints wallowing in the feelings and thoughts they were having prior to their death – their demeanors seem to suggest that reliving their last hours and life’s regrets is their fate for not ‘moving on.’ Myrtle seems to be taking full advantage of Malfoy’s sensitive situation and vulnerability for her own sake, as years and years of being ignored and disregarded have left her hungry for attention. Also, here’s a fun little thing I caught which might be a hint as to Myrtle’s secret new friend. On page 462 of the U.S. Edition, Ron asks, [as Ron] ‘When you say you had lots in common, d’you mean he lives in an S-bend too?’ Malfoy might not live in an S-bend but does live in Slytherin House, whose mascot is a winding (bending) serpent…also, Slytherin dormitories get an underwater view of the Black Lake, the same body of water to which the toilets lead.”
Eric: Eww.
Michael: Gross but true.
“In fact, as I type this…”
… says Protego My Eggo…
“… I realize maybe the way they met was because Myrtle was accidentally flushed into the lake, swam around, overheard Malfoy crying alone in his room through the window, and ghostified herself through the wall to console him or something. Hashtag theories…”
[laughs]
Eric: Long comment but pleasant.
Michael: Long but full of very interesting ideas.
Eric: I find the implication that Myrtle is somehow… I don’t know. It’s just, Myrtle seems to be taking full advantage of Malfoy’s sensitive situation. I don’t think there’s anything malicious about the way she’s behaving. I do agree that it’s uniquely interesting that Malfoy in the weakened state and her match so well. I do think they’re a perfect match for each other, but I also don’t think that she’s abusing that. I think she is, perhaps… I don’t know. In the way that ghosts feed off of [the] energy of the living, perhaps she is somehow getting stronger or living for the first time in a couple [of] years in hearing his stories, but I also think that she helps him. I think that that’s why he probably comes to her more than just once, is that he is able to unload onto her. Unload his problems.
Michael: Do you think that there is, maybe, an alternative way to how she found him? Because as a lot of listeners pointed out, Malfoy probably didn’t run into the girls’ bathroom first.
Eric: She answers that in last week’s chapter, doesn’t she? She just happened to be in the boys’ bathroom instead one day. I don’t know.
Michael: That’s probably true.
Eric: Yeah, I mean, she’s been accidentally flushed before, so I think it’s plausible. Some people are attracted to – oh, what’s the word? – sorrow. It’s attractive. But the boys’ bathroom thing, I find it funny that Myrtle… This is headcanon, but she probably, after the first few talks, heart-to-hearts – if she has a heart, if what she has is a heart – with Draco, she was probably like, “I’ve been hanging out in the wrong bathrooms in all my afterlife. Boys want to open up. I’ve been doing it wrong.”
[Kristen laughs]
Danielle: Girls share with other girls all the time. Boys usually don’t, so she should’ve figured that out long ago.
Michael: [laughs] She’s taking advantage of a whole new world. It’s taken her how many years to figure this out? I like too that Protego My Eggo .referenced the thing we’ve learned about ghosts is that they… We learn that a little bit in the books and a lot more on Pottermore that they really aren’t the full human being. They’re an imprint, and they’re perpetually stuck in the most recent emotions they had before they died. I think that’s worthy of note for, perhaps, examining why Myrtle acts the ways she does.
Eric: Those two portraits are so alike.
Michael: Yes, very much so. But as Protego My Eggo put it – I’m not going to be able to say that name anymore – #theories, RoseLumos had a nice, big #theory, which was,
“Do you think it’s possible that Draco and Myrtle’s first encounter was actually in the girl[s] bathroom? What if Draco was considering moving the Vanishing Cabinet to a more secure location and thought about trying to get into the Chamber of Secrets? He may have gotten frustrated that he couldn’t get in and broke down about the whole situation. Then, Myrtle could have heard his cries and decided to comfort him. Then, as Draco abandoned the Chamber of Secrets idea, Myrtle would have wandered from boys[‘] bathroom to boys[‘] bathroom looking for him. It might be a long shot, but really, when have we seen Myrtle just leave her bathroom for no particular reason?”
Well, we have seen that happen at least once in Goblet of Fire.
Eric: Yes, that’s true.
Danielle: And does Malfoy know where the Chamber of Secret[s] is? Or am I wrong?
Michael: Well, the thing is, he could potentially know because Voldemort knew, and he might have told him.
Kristen: I doubt it. I don’t think so.
Michael: So the contingency plan of using the giant snake isn’t going to work.
Eric: [as Voldemort] “Draco. Move your mouth like this.”
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Eric: [as Voldemort] “And it will open, and then you can work in there.”
Kristen: And in Chamber of Secrets when the trio’s in the bathroom, doesn’t Myrtle come in and out, and she’s wandering other places?
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, she…
Kristen: So I feel like she wanders around a lot.
Michael: Yeah, I mean, there’s, of course, the horrible, horrible confirmation that yes, she does get flushed down the toilet, and she goes to the lake, [laughs] so she does have to wander around from time to time.
Eric: She has some adventures.
Michael: [laughs] She does.
Danielle: Adventuring the different toilets.
Michael: [laughs] I do like this potential suggestion, though. As Eric said, it’s probably been canon negated, but it’s an interesting thought that maybe there were other plans that were provided to Draco or other suggestions, especially the idea of the Chamber of Secrets. So since that is…
Eric: Maybe Crabbe and Goyle met Myrtle first.
Kristen: Oh, God. Yeah, being dressed up as the girls.
Michael: [laughs] That’s right.
Kristen: Because they had to go use the bathroom.
Michael: [laughs] Ahh, the things the book chose not to dwell on.
Kristen: Thank heavens. Yuck.
Michael: Perhaps for the better. But before we end the Podcast Question of the Week discussion, I just want to make sure [to] do a few shoutouts to a few people in particular – I know this one is one of Eric’s favorites – DisKid…
Eric and Michael: Not that kid, DisKid.
Michael: … [laughs] HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis, PuffNProud, Silverdoe25, They’ve Taken My Wheezy!, and The Vegemite Sand Witch. Not sandwich, sand witch.
[Eric and Kristen laugh]
Eric: Oh, “sand witch.” Oh, man.
Michael: [laughs] And I also want to make sure [to] do a shoutout maxima to those of you who… If I had had more time, I would’ve put your comments in the show. You almost made it in, but I just couldn’t fit you in.
Eric: Yes, we time him, and every time he said “Protego My Eggo,” one of your comments…
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: So a shoutout maxima to The Half Blood Princess, Hufflepug, Minerva’s tartan biscuit tin, open the rumbleroar, and Yo Rufus On Fire.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Michael: I feel that’s how you have to say that.
Eric: Now it is time for your chapter discussion. Take it away, prerecorded audio clip.
[Half-Blood Prince Chapter 22 intro begins]
Hagrid and Professor Slughorn: [singing] “And his wand snapped in two…”
Harry: Chapter 22.
Hagrid and Professor Slughorn: [singing] “… which was sad…”
Harry: “After the Burial.”
[Half-Blood Prince Chapter 22 intro ends]
Eric: Thank you. Yes, today it is “After the Burial,” and as we usually do when we get into our chapter discussions, we first read a little summary to whet all of your appetites. The summary for this chapter I wrote as follows: Harry reflects on his recent failures with Slughorn and Malfoy. Ron and Hermione have their Apparition test later in the day. After receiving a letter from Hagrid, telling them that Aragog has died, Harry resolves to try his luck with Slughorn and as a last ditch effort, to try using Felix Felicis to acquire the elusive memory once and for all. So this chapter is awesome.
[Kristen laughs]
Eric: It’s really, really wonderful and…
Michael: It’s super awesome.
Eric: … I don’t know how else to say it. We finally… Ever since the first day at Hogwarts when Harry has received Felix, to his almost using it on Ron, which is mentioned in this chapter…
Kristen: Mhm.
Eric: … to actually be able to see what it is and how it feels to take has been… It’s been a journey.
Michael: This Felix Felicis is so awesome that Eric and Kristen know I have cosplayed Harry…
[Kristen laughs]
Michael: … specifically under the influence of Felix Felicis because it is so awesome. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah…
Michael: It leads to great interactions.
[Kristen laughs]
Eric: … Felix Felicis slash slightly-hopped-up-on-drugs Harry…
[Danielle, Kristen, and Michael laugh]
Eric: … is one of the best moments of the entire movie franchise.
Danielle: Oh gosh, I love it.
Michael: The movie does it so well. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, people who don’t even like that movie adaptation, often the breaking point, the melting point…
[Michael laughs]
Eric: … when their heart is just melting into…
[Kristen laughs]
Eric: … tears of joy is this scene. And it is so well written, and that’s one of the greatest things about reading this, is because we’ve probably seen the movies more recently or more often because it only takes two hours versus however long it takes to read, but it’s always better to read and it is always better to… You get a lot more out of it.
Michael: Is it, though?
Eric: Yeah.
Michael: I think… I’m going to contend that when we get to the end because I think there are some things with the movie that are interesting to talk about with the end result…
Danielle: Yes.
Michael: … in the chapter.
Eric: I cannot wait.
Kristen: Mhm.
Eric: Okay. Well, we’ll have a good talk. I’ve actually… To break everybody in, I’ve got just a very small point to start with.
Michael: Hmm.
Eric: Sometimes we do th[ese] inner chapter discussions where we bring up the little things. There’s a very minor moment, and if you blink you would miss it…
[Danielle laughs]
Eric: … in this. Of course, we all know in broad strokes that Harry ends up taking Felix Felicis and he gets Slughorn very drunk.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Like, blackout drunk and Slughorn gives in. But at one point when Slughorn has had a few, he mentions… Actually no, he’s breaking out the wine for the first time, and since Ron has just recently been poisoned he tells Harry that he, Slughorn, has had a house-elf try all of the wine in his reserve, all of his store. All of the wine that Slughorn had left he allowed a house-elf to basically taste test it.
Michael: And all at once, every Harry Potter reader brings out their SPEW badge…
[Kristen laughs]
Michael: … slaps it to their chest…
Eric: And pretends that they’ve been wearing it…
Eric and Michael: For the whole time.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Eric: Yeah, because now it’s time to jump on that boat.
Michael: Because what the heck, that’s crazy.
Eric: But it’s funny, Slughorn was talking to Harry and he says, “It was just terrible what happened to your friend Rupert.”
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Michael: He cares.
Eric: Of course he means Ron, and Harry doesn’t correct him. Harry is in his own state of not really paying attention… I mean, kind of paying attention but not paying attention. If Felix didn’t say it was important, it’s not important.
[Danielle laughs]
Eric: So in this sort of innocuous moment… J.K. Rowling I believe has managed a shout-out to…
Danielle: Yeah.
Eric: … one of the trio actors – of course Rupert Grint, who plays Ron and who… he’s talking about Ron but he calls him Rupert. And at this point… I had to go back and look, but at the time of the sixth book coming out, the fourth movie was about four months away, and so the trio had been cast for some time and had been in movies for some time, and I really feel like this is an intentional… Let me know if you disagree with me, but a shout-out to Rupert, his work, maybe? I mean, just if you can, why not get away with throwing in something like this?
Kristen: Sure.
Michael: Yeah.
Kristen: Could be.
Eric: So we all think J.K. Rowling just did us up?
Kristen: A hundred percent. [laughs]
Michael: I do. I think… she never perhaps flat out said it, but I always got the implication that she liked Rupert the best…
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: … because… And she loves them all, clearly…
Danielle: Mhm.
Michael: … but I think she really… And I could… Maybe this is more personal, this thing I’m putting on this, but I think what… Dan and Emma are amazing, but I think Rupert was probably the closest to his original character, out of the three of them.
Eric: Interesting.
Michael: And he was probably the closest to… And I think any faults where he wasn’t were the scripts’ fault and not his.
[Danielle and Kristen laugh]
Michael: And I think he went to… And he was the only one of the three of them beforehand who was so committed…
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: I’m sure you guys have all seen their first press interview where they asked them what they’re going to do with all their money.
Eric: Oh, God.
Michael: And they all give such great answers that fit them so well, but Rupert’s answer is the best.
Eric: What’s he say?
Michael: Well, because Dan says, “I don’t know,” and then Emma says, “Oh, I’m going to put it in a fund for college,” and Rupert says, “Well, you see, they’re giving us Muggle money, and I don’t understand that because I’m a wizard.”
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Danielle: I completely forgot about that. That’s so adorable.
Eric: He was totally the most adorable!
[Danielle, Kristen, and Michael laugh]
Michael: Ah, here comes the Ron love.
Eric: Little-known fact!
Michael: But yeah, no, I think Rowling recognized that Rupert was the one who was a fan of the series from the get-go.
Eric: I always thought it’s not necessarily that she’s rewarding him for being the coolest Harry Potter fan but more like I think she likes his comedic… I mean, he’s the brunt of the joke. He’s the comedic relief character for the trio in the movies, and I feel like she responded to the gusto with which he was okay with that. I don’t know. It just seems like, even by the third… I mean, especially… There’s no better example than [in a high-pitched voice] “What’s that thing? Why couldn’t it be…?” All the high-pitched stuff he does in Movie 2.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Michael: You just broke the sound barrier there.
[Kristen laughs]
Eric: I always felt it was more like not consolation but appreciation because he was the comedic character.
Michael: I don’t know. I could…
Kristen: And it’s the closest name to his character. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, it’s very easy to mix Ronald and Rupert.
Michael: It’s a fabulous setup. I think it’s something that definitely a lot of Harry Potter fans enjoyed because…
Kristen: Oh, yeah.
Michael: … because throughout the whole book, Slughorn is like, “Oh, you! You redhead, you.”
Kristen: Yep. Botching his name the whole time.
Michael: Yeah. [laughs]
Eric: Oh, and isn’t that funny because Ron is not in the Slug Club, and basically, the whole book is about how Slughorn is ignoring Ron because he’s not talented. So he can get his name wrong.
Michael: Yeah, well, and then there’s going to be another… that is an odd running theme. Because that’s going to be a big plot point with the Half-Blood Prince’s book later with Roonil Wazlib. [laughs]
Eric: Oh, yeah. Yeah, I wonder. But anyway, that was a little thing we dwelled too much on…
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Eric: … for being a little thing. It’s a little thing.
Michael: It’s a good little thing.
Kristen: I liked it.
Eric: Yeah, let’s go onto another thing that I pretended was a big thing, but it’s probably also a little thing.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Eric: Potions class with Malfoy and Ernie. So for some reason… okay, most of the school – I assume – or most of their normal class is taking their Apparition lessons. But Ernie Macmillan, Draco Malfoy, and Harry are not 17 yet, and so they cannot take their Apparition test with the rest of the school. So Slughorn devises a unique class where he says, “Just make me something amusing!” And of course, Harry succeeds at producing Euphoria with peppermint. I was wondering, though, because this class is different from Potions class, and gosh, we’ve paid a lot more attention to Potions in this book than we ever have before, and I wonder if the reason that this class is so different, that this took place the way that it did, was actually a result of Jo trying to keep things fresh, either for herself or for us because this is probably, like, the hundredth Potions class we’re in this year, and still, it manages to come off feeling new.
Michael: Yeah, I think the reason it stands out for me… of course, because it’s not in the movie I completely forgot this even happened – dang it, movies. That’s what you always make me do. – but I did like that this is… the thing that stands out is that it’s a more intimate Potions class. There'[re] just three students there. And it doesn’t only serve to be an interesting Potions class, but it’s [also] a great opportunity for Harry to observe Malfoy degrading, falling apart.
Eric: I don’t know. The class is mostly written over. We don’t actually spend… an hour and a half passes in just a sentence. It’s like, “And then an hour and a half later, Harry had his potion ready.” I mean, he notices that Malfoy is paler, that’s true. We don’t have…
Michael: Yeah, he goes into pretty gross detail. He’s like, “Wow…”
Eric: They don’t have any dialogue together, though. I was going to say that we didn’t actually gain anything about Malfoy, but you’re right. We actually do in that description.
Michael: Yeah, it’s tough because the thing I…
Kristen: Super pale.
Michael: Yeah. See that is… even though it’s a brief description, I think it’s… this is a tough thing I think we’ve been coming up as a problem with Half-Blood Prince and rereading it over any of the other books. There is something about the mystery – my personal belief being that it’s all put out in front of us – that doesn’t strike a lot of readers in the same way that the other books do when they reread it. The other books read like very traditional mysteries. Half-Blood Prince is a very different mystery than all the other ones. Because there is no mystery.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Michael: It’s all right there.
Eric: Oh, it’s all there to be read.
Michael: Yeah, all the answers are there. And I think as a rereader, that can be frustrating because for some, I think it’s seen as a lack of intricacy. It’s just like, “Well, we know. We know, we know, we know, we know, we know.” There aren’t really many shocking revelations because we know them already. Whereas the shocking revelations – the way they’re put forth in the other books – tend to be the grand finale. All the clues lead up to something. Half-Blood Prince? All the clues are right there for you, and so I think this is another one of those moments that is taken for granted as a reread. It’s just like, “Oh yeah.”
Eric: Yeah, I think that’s very possible.
Michael: “Malfoy looks pale.”
Danielle: And I have to say, “I appreciate the fact that it’s not set up like the traditional mystery” because that’s what makes Harry Potter so great, in a way, that J.K. Rowling took those steps to make it something different and unique, and I really like that.
Michael: Yeah, I agree. That’s why I love Half-Blood Prince. And I think a lot of people discount that even though, by ring theory, Half-Blood Prince is connected to Chamber of Secrets, I often compare it to Prisoner because Prisoner, I feel, was the first one to break out of the mold from the rest.
Danielle: Yeah, definitely.
Eric: Yeah. It doesn’t have Voldemort in it. It has Voldemort’s followers instead.
Michael: Yep. Well, and the concern isn’t even “Well, Voldemort is coming to get me this year.” It’s “Sirius Black is coming to get me.” And there'[re] SO many layers to what that’s about. Other than the basic antagonist coming to get the good guy, and so I think that’s… and I’ve heard a lot of people cite that they like… a lot of people say [that] Prisoner is their favorite and Half-Blood is their second or vice versa.
Eric: That’s me.
Kristen: Yeah, I was going to say, “I agree.”
Michael: I’m that as well, and so… Danielle, what are your favorites, by the way?
[Kristen laughs]
Danielle: This is an unpopular opinion, but Order of the Phoenix is one and Deathly Hallows.
Michael: Ooh.
Danielle: Which I guess is a popular one.
Michael: Yeah, Deathly Hallows does get picked a lot. Order doesn’t, though. Oh, Kat! Did you hear that?
[Everyone laughs]
Danielle: Yeah, I agree with Kat!
Eric: I can hear in the background her stamp of approval.
[Sound of a thud and a cat yowling]
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Danielle: I always sympathize when I listen.
Michael: Well, and certainly, I think even those of us who don’t put Order at the top of our list can appreciate why it’s a major contribution to the series and why it’s important.
Kristen: Definitely.
Eric: I was actually just explaining to somebody earlier today that I like that there are people who know that Book 5 is their favorite and people who know that Book 7 is their favorite because it just speaks to the diversity of the books and how they each reach different people on different levels.
Michael: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.
Kristen: Definitely.
Michael: But going back to the original point of yours, Eric, I think that is why we tend to gloss over what’s important about these scenes. It’s because, for us as rereaders…
Eric: Oh, Malfoy is pale again!
Michael: Yeah, Malfoy! Pale!
[Kristen laughs]
Eric: We know what he’s doing, but to Harry, it’s still a mystery, so it’s just… is it just me, or did he maybe not eat something good at lunch or something?
Kristen: Yeah, is he not going into the sunlight at all? [laughs]
Michael: Well, and I think even the remarkable thing, though, about the scene, even as a rereader, is that… what hits me every time I read this scene is the realization that Harry and Malfoy haven’t interacted almost at all in this book. Yeah, I think that has become such a regular thing in the series, and when you really do have the same realization that Harry does of “Wow, I haven’t even seen him for a long time, and I definitely haven’t talked to him,” it’s shocking. It does make you realize, this is a little different. Something is definitely going on that’s unusual here.
Eric: That is a really good point. And this third point is pretty meaty because it deals with Hagrid, and he’s just a big dude. Hagrid [laughs] has an interesting story [that] he doesn’t tell. He mentions it, but he doesn’t tell it. Ron… there’s some humor earlier in the chapter when they find out that Aragog died, and Ron is just like, “Oh, that’ll have improved him a bit.” Because he was nasty. They had that terrible experience in – what book was it? – Book 2!
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Where they’re in the forest, and they escape with barely their lives because all of Aragog’s lot want to eat Harry and Ron. So anyway, Hagrid has this moment. This is when Harry begins taking Felix, and we’re going to talk about that – that’s the next point, I promise, is Felix – we’re going to get to Felix, but when he’s with Hagrid, before Slughorn arrives, Hagrid mentions that he took Aragog’s body. It’s out in the back. It turns out, Hagrid is surprised to find out that Aragog’s whole family would’ve even eaten Hagrid, or that the only reason he was even allowed to visit was because of Aragog’s fondness for him. And he stated to Harry that it was difficult getting Aragog’s body out of the forest because Acromantula[s] usually eat their dead. Now, I’m thinking of Hagrid, who’s [a] very bulking, half-giant guy, but with a broken wand, never learned magic past the third grade, has a third-grade spell level. And how did he do this? How did he actually escape, while carrying Aragog over his back, this horde of giant spiders that wanted to eat probably Hagrid too but also wanted to eat Aragog? This is the most… we have obligatory genius moments from time to time. This is the hidden badass moment of the chapter.
Kristen: I was going to say, “He’s just a badass.” That’s how he does it.
[Danielle and Kristen laugh]
Eric: Yeah, I mean… Kristen, that’s your answer?
Kristen: Just a badass.
Danielle: That’s a good answer.
Eric: The other thing that strikes me with this story, which again, is glossed over because Harry is high…
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: But the other portion of it is that Aragog did have a sort of human sense of affection for Hagrid. You hear the story too often of people raising a lion cub or an alligator from youth, or even apes, and they’re adorable as kids, and you have a real bond with the child pet. But over time, its instinct and adulthood kicks in, and it wants different things and just in general becomes a real terror and attacks and has a violent… you can no longer live with an adult animal in the same way that you could when they were in their infancy. And so this idea that the love, the bond between Hagrid and his pet, “Raised him up from a cupboard…”
Michael: There you go.
Eric: There you go. Finally.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: … gosh – is that they have this lasting bond that prevents Hagrid from being eaten, but also, again about “How did Hagrid escape?” did the other spiders…? They clearly… there’s this hierarchy where they respected Aragog’s ruling. He was probably king of all the… probably was their dad, if we’re being honest here, but I really wonder if they all, again, have a human sense of almost respect or deference for the matter, simply because Aragog, although he became what I assume is king of the giant spiders out in the forest, still was in the end, Hagrid’s pet – his first even pet – and is that why they let him go?
Michael: This to me kind of connects with what I was mentioning before about the things that we just assume are fun and magical and “Oh, giant magic spiders, how exciting. This makes the school way more exciting,” and it lends a little bit of that crushing reality where Hagrid is saying, “I can’t go into a part of the forest, that’s never happened before.” And the end of Book 4 through 7 are fascinating. I think that’s another reason that the Harry Potter series is so good and exceeds in a lot of ways that a lot of fantasy series don’t, especially for juvenile readers, is that it builds up this magical world where you can just assume that the world is magical, and there [are] these constant revelations that the world really isn’t that magical. It’s constructed out of a lot of human failings, and this is one of those. Hagrid made some big mistakes with the spiders. [laughs] Huge. Literally. And you see it as this fun magical romp in [Bok] 2, and in [Book] 6 there’s more weight and heft put [in]to it. I think that’s probably why she doesn’t dwell on how he escaped, because we’re just left to assume, “Well, Hagrid is big.”
Danielle: He’s a badass.
[Kristen laughs]
Michael: Yes. He’s a big bad…
Eric: I mean, I’d hate to see a retread of the centaurs, who all hate Hagrid now as well, right?
Kristen and Michael: Yeah.
Michael: Yet another thing that’s…
Eric: Centaurs are another big thing, where in Book 1, you’re like, “Oh, these magical, beautiful creatures,” but they want independence and they want it pretty fiercely.
Michael: My main example that I always cite that I think usually… that one was the one that probably strikes me, is Sorcerer’s Stone with Quirrell. Because a lot of people brush Quirrell off because it’s like, “Oh, he’s the bad guy, and then he died.” That’s how a children’s book works. You defeat the bad guy, and he’s dead. But throughout the later books, there are a lot of revelations that tie into Quirrell and what he was doing with the Sorcerer’s Stone that make it a lot more serious. It wasn’t just a fun romp anymore. There were a lot of serious implications that surrounded the Sorcerer’s Stone. And they’re put more into that dark context later.
Eric: Part of my thought process that I think aligns with that… because you’re talking about Quirrell, and I like Quirrell a lot, but you’ve got this villain who shares heads with Voldemort, the main villain in the entire series. In Book 6, you’ve got a villain in Slughorn almost. In this chapter, it becomes clear to me, Slughorn is not a good guy. When Harry is persuading him to divulge the memory in this chapter too, there'[re] a lot of questionable things that Slughorn says. Harry at one point asks him if he wants Voldemort to die and basically, “The wizard who killed my mom. Don’t you want him to suffer? Don’t you want to help us defeat him?” And it’s really questionable because Slughorn very clearly doesn’t actually want to be in the middle of it. You get these… so my whole point with Quirrell in Book 1 and Slughorn in Book 6 is, this is much more subtle. I still say, “Slughorn is an obstacle for Harry.” If not a villain, he’s an obstacle. He contains this memory. But there’s a lot of nuance involved and coaxing that from him, and it takes the whole book for Harry to do it. Even though we’re introduced in pretty much the second or third chapter to him, it takes all this time for Harry to learn how to operate because it’s not the traditional, simple “this is the bad guy, and he needs to die” character.
Danielle: I was just going to say, getting back to ring composition, that Aragog appears in Book 2 and now is in Book 6, so that’s something to think about. And also, backing up just a tiny bit with Draco and Harry, in Book 2, you see Harry pursuing Draco, thinking he’s up to something with the Chamber, and in this book, it’s the same way.
Eric: Oh.
Kristen: Oh, yeah.
Eric: Yeah, and except this time, he actually is up to something.
Danielle: Exactly.
[Kristen laughs]
Michael: Boy.
Kristen: That’s very true. Yeah.
Danielle: Which I love that.
Kristen: Good point.
Michael: I also don’t 100% subscribe, but again, I think it’s just pulling those connections out. I would love if somebody just made even a basic list of these connections and if they ever got…
Danielle: There are some, actually.
Eric: Yeah, there are.
Michael: Well, I would love somebody to take those lists and just put them on a scroll or something and then unravel it right in front of Rowling and just be like, “Come on.”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: “Tell us if you did this on purpose or not!”
Danielle: Yeah, because I know John Granger has a book about it because that’s the one that I read about Ring Composition.
Michael: Mhm.
Danielle: So he should show her that book.
Eric: It’s really worth noting that our other MuggleNet podcast Academia has John Granger as a regular host.
Danielle: Yes, I was on that, actually.
Kristen: Nice!
Eric: Oh, yeah! Cool. And so definitely, listeners who are interested in the more – what’s the word? – academic side… there, it’s an easy word; it’s in the title…
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: … should definitely check out MuggleNet Academia as a podcast. But now, we’re going to talk about fun, fun Felix. Felix Felicis. We finally take in just a carefully measured mouthful.
Danielle: Mhm.
Eric: And immediately, Harry is… well, he just gets sort of enlightened. He describes it, or it is described, as having “several paths illuminated before him.” And we’ve talked a great bit… for not having actually gotten to that chapter where he actually takes Felix, I feel like going through this book on Alohomora! we’ve often had the discussion about how Felix works because it plays into, “Well, would it be useful here? Would it be useful here?” We’ve had a lot of talk about it, and up until this point on the show, I’ve been interested and generally agreeing because I don’t remember all that well what I read ten years ago… that it’s this very broad sense of illuminated foot paths like the Michael Jackson “Billie Jean” video…
[Michael laughs]
Eric: … he’s on the sidewalk and it’s lighting up; that kind of thing.
Danielle: Oh, yeah.
Eric: But ultimately, while rereading the chapter for this episode, it tends to be… in the actual chapter, it’s really a lot more than that. It’s telling Harry throughout this chapter… well, where to go is broad. But it tells him to look up at the emptying wine bottles when he notices that Hagrid and Slughorn have had a few, it tells him to not say anything when Slughorn is trying to suppress, I guess, vomiting or burping, it tells him to say more at the right moments… this is a more active presence than I ever imagined, I guess.
Danielle: Yeah, mhm.
Eric: Felix, in this chapter, is physically nudging Harry and doing a whole lot more than what I remember, which is just like, “Oh, this is a good idea…”
Kristen: Yeah, and taking the path past the gardens even though it’s a longer way to get to Hagrid’s; I never really picked up on that until rereading.
Eric: Yeah, it doesn’t make any sense! It doesn’t make sense to go by the vegetable patch but that’s where Slughorn was. He wasn’t planning on running into Slughorn at first; he was going to go to Hagrid’s and that was going to be some kind of way.
Danielle: Yeah.
Eric: But what, I guess, my main point in Felix… this is something I haven’t thought about in a really long time, but back in my first year of college – it was Philosophy 101 – we were talking about determinism. We were talking about the idea of fate or the idea that everything that’s supposed to happen is already written and we’re players along the thread. And I was thinking: What if Felix Felicis…? Again, it never did it for me before, but in this read-through I really feel like it’s a magical awareness that opens up of determinism, of fate, of what is actually prescribed to happen. It lets you see the peripheral corners of that reality, that fate is set and it’s actually… just the way that it’s written, where Harry gets physically nudged to say things and do things, it makes me think a lot about just how this is magic and how at the same time it’s almost impossible to imagine that anyone could be this lucky.
Michael: Yeah, it’s interesting because it’s… I subscribe more to that it does open a pathway that you can choose to take because the narration suggests that Harry has the choice not to do what Felix Felicis tells him to do.
Eric: But what situation would he be in if he didn’t take it?
Michael: Well, and it’s interesting to think if you choose not to do what it says, will it open up another path for you? Will it find other ways to get you what you want? Or just give up?
Danielle: Yeah, “Tough luck.”
Eric: [laughs] I mean, thinking of it as a potion – its grounds are it’s a potion – you could do this several other ways; it could be a spell, it could be a… but it’s a potion, and so it’s got a certain time period that it wears off…
Kristen: Yeah.
Eric: … and Harry doesn’t take the whole thing. But another interesting note from this chapter is that he finally resolves… Hermione convinces him to use it. He’s like, “Okay, I’m going to try it once more without the potion,” and that’s when he’s with Malfoy and Ernie in Potions, and that doesn’t work, so he’s like, “Okay, I’m going to finally try it.” But he has been holding off taking Felix all year, the school year, because he wanted to save it for I guess something to do with Ginny.
[Michael laughs]
Kristen: Oh, Ginny.
Eric: The book says he has always imagined these corridor meetings and this, that, and the other thing with Ginny, so he’s been putting off using it. It’s not laziness, it’s just hesitance. And he finally uses it but then when he gets the notion to go down to Hagrid’s and tells them, “I just feel like that’s the place to be,” going through the portrait hole…
Michael: He bumps into Ginny.
Kristen: Oh, yeah. Mhm.
Eric: Yeah, he bumps into Ginny, and it solves… it is the impetus by which Ginny reacts negatively to Dean and is… and I’m sure they’ve had their issues before we’ve seen…
Danielle: Yeah.
Eric: … but it really opens up… it solves all of his problems.
Danielle: Mhm.
Eric: It doesn’t just necessarily solve the one that he’s trying to get the memory, but it’s actually going out of its way to be on his side. Maybe that makes it more luck than anything but it’s there for him. I feel like Felix is the tangible buddy who has read the Harry Potter books already and is like, “Hey, man. We got this.” He’s the perfect wingman. He’s the perfect assistant and I love when – especially in the movie, too – I think they just refer to it by name as if it is a person because that’s exactly how it feels.
Michael: Yeah, and I think, even stretching how far the reach of Felix Felicis works, it actually also… there’s a moment that occurs where Lavender catches Ron and Hermione leaving with Harry out of the dormitory and…
Kristen: Oh, yeah.
Eric: Oh, so that finally gets a chance to be resolved.
Kristen: Mhm, as well, yeah.
Michael: Yeah, because Harry has no direct involvement in that but isn’t it interesting? Because him and Hermione have been nagging Ron to just do something about Lavender…
Eric: To do it.
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: … and it’s not even for Harry; it’s for Ron. But it’s…
Eric: But that benefits Harry; his personal… Harry is the lucky one but other people are winning because of… I don’t know. You’re right, that doesn’t affect Harry directly but it’s still happening while he’s under the influence.
Kristen: Maybe he’s sick of Lavender coming to him and…
Michael: Yeah! That’s right.
[Danielle and Eric laugh]
Kristen: It does benefit him in some ways.
Danielle and Eric: Yeah.
Michael: That’s true. Well, yeah, isn’t that interesting, though? Because that’s almost like Felix Felicis offering choices to people who aren’t under its influence. And how long will that effect last? Because ostensibly here, it is permanent. Ron and Lavender will break up and Ginny and Dean will break up not too soon after.
Eric: Yeah, those are permanent things that aren’t… you’re right.
Michael: Yeah, those end up being permanent. So isn’t it interesting that Felix Felicis can influence that far out past the drinker?
Danielle: That’s why I really want to know how it works.
Michael: How it should work. Yeah.
Danielle: I would love it if… because it’s bending the forces of nature almost. I just…
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Yeah, I mean, it’s hard to imagine if he hadn’t drank the potion and happened to go through the portrait hole at that time. He wouldn’t have been under the Invisibility Cloak, so it would have been totally different. But you wonder if those other characters – Ginny and Dean – were really coming through the portrait hole at that exact moment anyway.
Michael: Mhm.
Eric: To what extent…? Slughorn was down… I think they’d just seen him eating and they were like, “We’re going to go back up to the tower and give him time to find his way to his office.” But he didn’t go to his office. He went to the vegetable patch and that just came to Harry like, “Oh, yeah, I’m going to walk past the vegetable patch.”
[Danielle and Kristen laugh]
Eric: It’s just very interesting and I love the fact that we don’t have these answers. I almost want her never to explain it, except for when we are reading this chapter and I’m like, “I want to know how this works.”
Michael: Well, yeah, more this reread than ever I realize that Felix Felicis is almost as dangerous as the Time-Turner. I’m actually, in a way, surprised that she introduced it because she had so many frustrations with the Time-Turner. And she literally had to destroy them all to get them out of the plot because there were too many plot holes with it.
Eric: [laughs] Yeah, because they could ruin things.
Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: And so how dangerous to introduce something like this? I mean, she did put restrictions on it… kind of vague restrictions.
Eric: Yeah, and they almost discredit… by taking it so often that you can’t stop, what, laughing or something? Or is it just that you have too much confidence and you end up getting yourself killed by accident? Or is laughter a real…? Is it euphoria? Am I mixing up something that if you drink too much of it, you just laugh and become a laughing…?
Michael: Well, Hermione states that Felix Felicis can only take you so far. So apparently, one, it does have a limit. And Slughorn does say, too… I don’t know if he specifies it, but he does say that there are very major consequences if you overdose on it.
Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: Because it is only supposed to be taken for a very limited period of…
Eric: Maybe that’s honestly like going back to opening up a reality that isn’t ordinarily glimpsed by the human eye; of seeing fate that maybe there’s only so much you can take before your eyes burn out like Raiders of the Lost Ark style.
[Danielle laughs]
Kristen: Yeah.
Eric: … because you’ve glimpsed… you’ve literally seen the answer. You’ve seen the answer to the most important question of the world and it’s 42.
Michael: [laughs] And then your face melts off.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Then your face melts off. Yeah, I wonder if it’s related to that at all.
Michael: And the only… because Slughorn glosses over his experience when he takes the Felix Felicis; he doesn’t go into too many details. But it is worth nothing that in the extended canon through Book of Potions, I believe you do get to brew Felix Felicis and there’s a little history given on it. The basis is that it was… actually, Zygmunt Budge, the character who wrote Book of Potions, invented it somewhere in the fifteenth century. And he gave it to a young man named Tertius who was a Muggle-born wizard; and he was the youngest of three brothers and his family was scared of his abilities so they chased him away and he ended up on Zygmunt’s island and Zygmunt gave him a few coins and some Felix Felicis and sent him on his way. He drank it, the wind shifted, sent him to an island where there were some wizards, they were like, “Oh, we should get you a wand.” And so they went and got him a wand and that same day, there was a job posting in Diagon Alley for curse breakers at Gringotts and Tertius became the greatest curse breaker in the history of Gringotts. So…
Eric: See, that again… that’s like somebody named Felix has big plans…
[Danielle and Michael laugh]
Eric: … and is going to install him at the heavily guarded Gringotts. I swear he’s like a fully formed creature from the other world or something.
Michael: Well, yeah, that’s what I thought was interesting because the explanation of the origins of Felix Felicis did not actually include an individual named Felix and it never explains where Zygmunt got the name.
[Eric laughs]
Michael: So it’s like you said, Eric, you almost don’t want her to answer it and with Book of Potions, she did not. She didn’t give us anything more other than how the potion is brewed. There’s not really much.
Danielle: I was just going to ask real quick… say that two opposing forces took the Lucky Potion at the same time – like Harry takes it and Draco takes it – how would that work then? Because if they were against each other with something and they took the Lucky Potion, so Harry could beat Draco and Draco could beat Harry, how would that play out then?
Eric: [sighs] I think it would be a draw. I think there would gains on both sides.
Michael: We’ve talked… yeah.
Danielle: Okay.
Eric: There would be gains because a little bit of luck can get you more insight into what your enemy is doing…
Danielle: Mhm.
Eric: … but ultimately, it would be… if they took the exact same quantity, or maybe if it’s adjusted for weight; I don’t know if one is skinnier than the other…
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: … but they took the equivalent of the exact quantity, of the same age, from the same potion, as much of the same stuff as you can possibly make it, then I imagine it would be a draw. Except if Draco is lucky for one minute longer, then that one minute he can spend landing a blow on Harry’s nose or something.
Kristen: Mhm.
Eric: It would have to be evenly matched. I think Felix would play both sides. The interesting thing is that that question doesn’t get answered because the rest of Felix is used by former members of the DA at the end of this book, right?
Danielle: Right.
Eric: That’s the rest of Harry’s vial given to the students so that they can succeed in basically handling the battle at Hogwarts that happens in this book.
Michael: Yes, once again Rowling so cleverly gets rid of the plot problem. [laughs]
Eric: Dispels it, yeah.
Danielle: Yeah.
Eric: But it’s also… and I would never accuse the book of being childish or shying away because the books are subtlety getting darker every year, but it’s good that there’s this huge battle at Hogwarts that we’re leading up to, and it happens again next year, but this year nobody dies, right?
Michael: I think…
Eric: Besides Dumbledore…
[Danielle, Kristen, and Michael laugh]
Eric: … none of the students, which is really a big oversight. I didn’t mean say that there was nobody.
Kristen: Yeah.
Eric: But none of the students, none of Harry’s friends, close friends, die.
Danielle: Nobody important.
Michael: Yeah, no. Other than Dumbledore, nobody on the good side dies. I think a Death Eater gets taken out, but yeah, that’s it.
Danielle: Mhm.
Eric: And so it’s a nice way of almost letting us down easy or gently. Dumbledore died. That’s a big deal, you’re right. But it could be so much worse like it is in Book 7 when Hedwig gets it. And so Felix Felicis is utilized as an excuse for keeping everyone alive almost.
Michael: Yeah, I could definitely see that because you do have to keep all of… those characters are all essential to keep around until the end.
Eric: And the threat is still real. You have to show that it’s still very possible that they could all die.
Michael: Yeah.
Eric: But to explain it away as being, “Well, they had some Felix to help them dodge spells… everybody, we just gave all the Death Eaters the Storm Trooper Curse…”
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Eric: “… and they couldn’t fire accurately with their wands.” But anyway, we are getting a little off topic. I want to talk about Harry’s eventual success in getting the memory from Slughorn and how… I mentioned before it’s very nuanced; he has to bring up the memory of Lily, not in the same way that it happens in the film. Michael, I’m sure you’ll speak to that…
Michael: I will. [laughs]
Eric: … but in a similar way in that Lily is somehow the key to the lock of Slughorn’s mind.
Michael: Mhm. Okay, I’ll speak to it since nobody else is speaking… unless anybody else has anything to say because this… the thing for me is that every read of that section has always been lackluster for me. And this is the one time for me – in I think any of the films – where the film exceeded the book because…
Eric: Because he talked about a fish?
Michael: … because Kloves found the emotional center, and he actually made it meaningful to both Slughorn and Harry.
Kristen: Mhm.
Eric: Hmm…
Michael: The passage in the book doesn’t mean anything to Slughorn and the narration even says he will forget it in the morning because he’s super drunk.
Kristen: Mhm.
Eric: No, it means more to Slughorn than it does to Harry, though. Harry is actually just manipulating. Harry is so over the fact that his mom and dad are dead that he can tell this story almost emotionlessly. He’s doing it to manipulate Slughorn.
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: Yeah, and I…
Eric: Slughorn is genuinely having what I feel is a genuine reaction. The last words of the chapter are, “Don’t think negatively of me after this,” and “I’m not proud of it”, he says to him before he gives him the memory. “I think I really did a lot of damage this day,” is what he says to Harry when he’s drunk. And yes, it’s sad that Slughorn himself won’t remember doing this, but ultimately he is caring quite a great deal about what Harry is saying to him. It’s Harry who doesn’t care, in my estimation.
Michael: I just think that…
Danielle: I feel like Felix…
Michael: Go ahead, Danielle.
Danielle: I was just going to say I feel like Felix has a play in that, though. Because I feel like if he didn’t take the potion, he might have been more aware of the fact that he’s talking about his parents’ death, or particularly Lily’s death. But the fact that he has the potion, it gives him the sort of power to go outside himself and manipulate, as you said.
Eric: That’s a really good point.
Kristen: Yeah, that’s the way I thought of it.
Michael: I think that’s great because the books, especially this book, has made clear that Harry is not very good with being open about his emotions.
Kristen: Definitely not.
Michael: Especially the sadder emotions. He doesn’t really like to talk about his feelings, and I think that’s why… I think, Danielle, that’s exactly why Felix Felicis is so important, because it helps him come out of that shell.
Eric: I mean, Harry doesn’t even know why he’s telling the truth about the Acromantula, and it turns out that Acromantula venom is super valuable and that’s what gets Slughorn to even come to Hagrid’s hut later. It’s the promise of great wealth because maybe the venom hasn’t dried up yet. But Harry has that sensation of “Now it’s time to tell the truth.”
Michael: And you’re right.
Eric: Felix is nudging him… and so I think you’re right. I think Harry is getting that sense of “Now is the time to tell Slughorn.” And it’s shocking to me, although it makes sense when re-reading it, that Slughorn didn’t know. It’s just not well-known that James died first and that Lily stepped in front of the spell. And so, I like that Slughorn possibly didn’t actually know this yet and that it somehow is a bigger deal to him in that it helps him give his memory away.
Michael: And you’re right, Eric, that I think definitely from Harry’s end, the writing is meant to sound robotic because it’s not quite him speaking – and Dan plays it that way in the movie. But for me, the scene works better in the movie because it gets to… Kloves – again, this is just like the one time that Kloves just really, really got it in a way that I don’t think he ever did again – he very much recognized what the core idea of that scene was and he expanded upon it beautifully. I like the thing with the magic because not only is it really great emotionally, it gives Jim Broadbent way more to do than the scene word-for-word would have done.
Eric: Yeah.
Michael: And it conforms to the magic of Rowling’s world. The idea of the fish in the bowl and the flower…
Eric: That it dies when she died.
Michael: Yeah.
Kristen: So powerful.
Michael: That is all something that Rowling could have written. I’m surprised she didn’t when I watched that scene. When I read it this time, I was left just like, “Oh, that was easy.” [laughs] There was very surface, emotional turmoil for Slughorn that again the book goes to many lengths to say that he’s not going to remember it. Harry got him drunk, so it’s really… in the movie what I love about that moment from Jim Broadbent is it’s almost like… Harry has gotten him drunk and that’s definitely played for laughs, but the moment that Slughorn starts to tell the story, it’s like he snaps out of it and he’s suddenly very serious.
Eric: Very sober.
Michael: Yeah, he’s very sober.
Danielle: I would say he sobers up.
Michael: Yep.
Kristen: Yeah.
Eric: He’s talking about a serious subject that he maybe wouldn’t have ventured into if he were completely sober, had all of his faculties, but it’s important enough to him that he still makes that. And the end result is the same: he decides to give Harry the unadulterated memory.
Michael: Yeah, I just think going deeper and having Slughorn give a more concrete example of an interaction with Lily has more of an impact than the general idea of: “Oh, Lily was great and she was a good student and I saw her all the time.”
Eric: But that’s something you also don’t get in the movie as much as you do in the book. In the book every time Harry makes a good potion, “Oh, those genes are awesome,” [Slughorn] says to him in the book again… the books’ subplot is “You have your mother’s eyes.” The long burn seven-book whole mystery is Harry’s eyes, and he says it here in talking about Lily. So it is more subtle than the movies can afford to be.
Michael: Oh, I think the movie is way more subtle on this one. [laughs]
Eric: But he says, “Be brave like my mother,” and [Slughorn] describes her as being brave when he’s talking about her to Harry and I do love it. But you’re right, the movie’s fine. The movie scene is fine, but I do like the book. I do like the way the book does it.
Michael: Yeah. And there’s a…
Danielle: And I have to point out… sorry, go ahead.
Michael: Go ahead, Danielle.
Danielle: I was just going to say… again, I’m going to bring up ring composition since it also exists within each book. I didn’t look for this but I’m pretty sure this would be the ring composition chapter to when we first see Slughorn’s fake memory where Voldemort asks him about the Horcruxes. Because that shows Voldemort and Harry’s similarity of Voldemort asking about Horcuxes and then Harry doing the same thing, and it shows their similarities and differences and how they go about it and why they’re going about it.
Eric: Yeah, Voldemort who never understand love could not easily have appealed to Slughorn’s love for his mother.
Danielle: Yeah.
Eric: Unless he took Felix [Felicis] and Felix was like, “Say this.”
[Danielle laughs]
Michael: No, I think that’s a fabulous thing to point out because as we talked about in a previous episode, Harry does try that tactic where he does try to do it exactly like Voldemort did it, which was probably the dumbest approach ever.
[Everyone laughs]
Kristen: Yes!
Michael: Even in the movie, I think…
Eric: He went for shock and awe. I love that about him: “I’m just going to shock him into giving me everything I want.”
Michael: And that’s another one where I think the movie expands really well on the book because the movie has the ability to mirror the cinematography of the two scenes. So, it shows exactly what Harry’s doing and why it’s so stupid.
[Danielle laughs]
Michael: But also I think that’s important too, Danielle because… Rowling, in a much more subtle way than in Order of the Phoenix, is trying to remind us that there is a major connection between Harry and Voldemort and that there is a major thing that separates the two of them. So I think that was a perfect way to point out that Harry is trying Voldemort’s way, and of course that won’t work [because] the one thing that’s in him that Voldemort doesn’t have – like you said, Eric – is love.
Danielle: Mhm.
Michael: And we’re being very… that’s the one thing about Rowling’s writing that is just excellent here. It’s an amazingly subtle reminder and hint of what’s to come.
Eric: Hmm… yeah.
Danielle: Yeah.
Michael: All right, before we close up our discussion on this chapter, we have one more big question about it. We figure now is the time to ask about Felix Felicis because it will only have one more somewhat major use in the book and then we won’t really see it again ever. So, time to ask: “The mechanics of Felix Felicis are particularly strange, bringing up issues of fate and multiple conflicts with its use. Even with Rowling’s explanation of the potion’s history, she has managed to maintain the mystery of how exactly this potion implements its effects and how far-reaching they are. So, how does Felix Felicis work? Is it capitalizing on pre-determined fate, or can multiple paths be taken?” And, as asked by our guest Danielle, “What occurs when two people utilize Felix Felicis at the same time?” If you have some answers or some theories for this question, please head over to alohomora.mugglenet.com where you can submit your thoughts on the Podcast Question of the Week, and we will read some of your answers on next week’s episode.
Eric: We would like to at this time thank our guest, Danielle, for coming on. Thank you, Danielle, so much.
Danielle: Thank you for having me, guys. This was awesome.
Michael: Did you have a good time?
Danielle: Oh, I did. This was definitely a highlight of my podcasting life.
Kristen: Oh, yay! Oh, we’re so glad. So that makes two MuggleNet podcasts you’ve been on then, right?
Danielle: Yeah, but this one went a little better because the MuggleNet Academia one I was pretty quiet the entire time.
Michael: Oh, we’re glad you spoke up.
Kristen: Yes.
Eric: You’ve come out of your shell a little bit.
Danielle: Exactly.
Michael: I’m so glad you spoke up because you had some really great thoughts to contribute.
Danielle: Oh, thank you. I’m so happy to have been on here.
Kristen: And if you would like to be on the show like Danielle, just check out our page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. All you need is an Apple headphones set and you’re good to go. You don’t need any fancy equipment. While you’re there, don’t forget to download a ringtone for free.
Michael: And there are plenty of ways to get in touch with us here at Alohomora!. You can start by going to @AlohomoraMN on Twitter. You can follow us as well on Facebook at facebook.com/openthedumbledore. We have a Tumblr account: mnalohomorapodcast. We have a number that you can call at 206-GO-ALBUS – that number is 206-462-5287. And we also have one of our favorite ways to communicate with you: audioBoom, which you can actually find on the main site on alohomora.mugglenet.com. There’s a little button on the far right side, and it’s free to do an audioBoom and submit one to us. All you need is a microphone so that you can record your own voice and send us your thoughts. Just make sure to keep them under 60 seconds, please, because that way we can fit them into the show.
Eric: And there is also the Alohomora! store, which has so many different things to chose from like flip-flops and T-shirts and probably sweatpants.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: I’m just guessing at this point. But there [are] House shirts – a number of different designs you can choose from – Desk!Pig, Mandrake Liberation Front, Minerva is my homegirl, all of the greatest hits. You can take a copy of our home game; all of it is over at the Alohomora! store. So many more things to chose from, definitely go check out our website at alohomora.mugglenet.com and click on “Store.”
Kristen: And don’t forget to check out our smartphone app, which is available on this side of the pond and the other. Prices may vary. You’ll be able to find transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and much, much more.
Eric: Well, guys, this has been a lot of fun. I want to thank you all and our guest again. Nothing left to do but to say goodbye. I’m Eric Scull.
Michael: I’m Michael Harle.
Kristen: And I’m Kristen Keys.
[Show music begins]
Kristen: Thank you for listening to Episode 140 of Alohomora!
Eric: [as movie Slughorn] “Your body may decay, unless you open the Dumbledore!”
[Everyone laughs]
[Show music continues]
Kristen: You just love saying the name. [laughs]
Eric: Who said this, Michael? Who wrote into us that happens to be on the show? Who wrote in?
Kristen: Who made this comment?
Michael: Huh? What? Who?
[Kristen laughs]
Eric: What’s the username? Hmm?
Michael: I think it’s Protego My Eggo.
[Kristen laughs]
Eric: Oh, that’s not “ego”?
Michael: No. It’s definitely Protego My Eggo.
Eric: “Ego” meaning “self,” like…
Michael: No.
[Kristen laughs]
Danielle: Like a waffle.
Michael: Protego as in “Protego my waffle.”
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Michael: Oh, man. There’s a…
[Kristen laughs]
Eric: Oh, I remember what I was going to say.
[Danielle, Kristen, and Michael laugh]
Michael: Waffles! That reminds me.
Eric: Waffles, waffles!
Danielle: Oh, Felix.
Eric: Yeah, you can hear the music playing. For some reason, in my mind it’s always the Beach Boys. I don’t know. I don’t know what you guys hear; maybe smooth jazz sometimes, or…
Danielle: “Get Lucky.”
Eric: Yeah, “Get Lucky.”
[Danielle and Michael laugh]
Eric: Let’s crank up the Daft Punk now.
[“Get Lucky” by Daft Punk (feat. Pharrell Williams and Nile Rodgers) plays]
Eric: [singing] “Like the legend of the phoenix.” [back to normal voice] But… okay. All right. It’s Felix time.
Kristen: Can I just say, the dance move to “Get Lucky” is what Harry does with the pincers, and you dance around like that. [laughs]
Michael: [singing in a British accent] “We’re up all night ’til the sun, we’re up all night to get lucky. We’re up all night to get lucky.” [laughs]
Kristen: [makes pincer sounds] And I’m doing the hand motion.
Eric: [singing] “We’re up all night to do pincers.”
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Eric: [singing] “We’re up all night to get pincered.”
[Kristen laughs]
Danielle: I don’t know this song. Am I the only one?
[Everyone laughs]
Kristen: What?
Eric: You’ve got to look it up.
Kristen: Yeah.
Eric: All right, first we have to podcast.
Kristen: Sorry.
[Everyone laughs]
[“Get Lucky” continues]
