Transcript – Episode 134
[Show music begins]
Michael Harle: This is Episode 134 of Alohomora! for April 25, 2015.
[Show music continues]
Michael: Hello, listeners, and welcome back to MuggleNet.com’s global reread of the Harry Potter series. I’m Michael Harle.
Micah Tannenbaum: I’m Micah Tannenbaum.
Alison Siggard: And I’m Alison Siggard. And our guest this week is Grace, who has been on the show before and you will probably recognize her as Lord Trolldemort on the forums. Welcome back, Grace!
Grace: Hi, everybody!
Michael: Yay! Grace is back.
Grace: Yay!
[Michael laughs]
Grace: I’m extremely happy to be back. [laughs]
Michael: Grace, for the listeners who may not have heard your episode or don’t remember you – which they should, because you’re a fabulous guest – remind them of who you are, your house, your background with Harry Potter, and all of that jazz.
Grace: Oh God, Harry Potter has been an obsession for ages now, ever since I was a little kid just like everybody else. Anyway… I kind of love all four houses. I was sorted into Gryffindor though, but everyone says I probably should have been a Ravenclaw. My favorite character is a Slytherin – if you guys remember, it’s Lord Voldemort – because I’m insane.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: And Hufflepuff, I’m pretty sure, was probably the best of the houses and had the right idea, so I just love all four. [laughs]
Michael: Oh, that’s nice.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: There’s a good balance there. And of course, listeners, you may have noticed that one of these things is not like the other. We have a Mr. Micah Tannenbaum here with us today. Micah, thank you so much for…
Grace: Duh, duh, duh!
Michael: … stepping in and filling in at Alohomora! today since all of the rest of our cast is abroad.
Micah: Or slacking.
Michael: Or slacking.
[Alison and Grace laugh]
Michael: Or just being lazy.
Micah: We should just be honest with the listeners.
Michael: Yeah, okay. They’re not even in Europe. They’re all at home eating sandwiches.
Grace: Yeah.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: Bunch of punks.
Micah: I’m happy to be back. I don’t think I’ve ever come on in this role as a host – I’ve always been a guest – so this is a big step up. I hope I can deliver.
Michael: Okay. Well, yeah, don’t screw it up, because this is important.
Micah: I’ve never done this before, by the way.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: No, I can…
Micah: As many listeners have seemed to comment…
Michael: I can already tell.
Grace: He seems like a bit of an amateur here.
Micah: … my knowledge of the series is lacking.
Alison: Have you read the books yet?
[Michael laughs]
Micah: I’ve read the chapter.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Alison: Oh, wow.
Micah: One post-it note full of ideas for this week’s episode. And I’m just excited to be back on. It’s always good to hear all your voices and talk about Potter.
Michael: Well, good. We’re so glad to have you, Micah… and you, Grace, as well for our discussion this week on Alohomora!, which is for Chapter 16 of Half-Blood Prince, “A Very Frosty Christmas.” Make sure and read that chapter, listeners, before listening to the episode so you can get the most out of our discussion today.
Micah: But before we get to Chapter 16 of Half-Blood Prince, a number of listeners sent in their comments on the last chapter that was done. The first actually is an audioBoom. This is exciting because I don’t know that I’ve ever experienced one of these before.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: Because you’re an old man podcaster?
Micah: I’m an old man podcaster, yes. It was sent in by BadgerMoleButterbeer.
Alison: Which is a great name.
[Alison, Grace, and Michael laugh]
Micah: Which is a new line of Butterbeer to be sold at the Wizarding World in the coming months.
[Audio]: Hey y’all, I’m BadgerMoleButterbeer and I have a question for you. Harry asking Luna to the Slug Club Christmas party has always felt a bit odd to me, though I loved it because Luna is wonderfully awesome. I realized on this read-through that she had just mentioned Ginny’s name when Harry invited her almost as a knee-jerk reaction. Was Harry either consciously or subconsciously imagining asking Ginny out, or was he trying to get on Ginny’s good side by befriending Luna? Harry can’t manage to be excited about taking Luna with him for Ginny’s sake, though he tries. But is Harry trying to use this to get Ginny’s attention? Thanks for listening, and I look forward to hearing your discussion.
Alison: I think this is an interesting idea, but I don’t think he was doing it on purpose to per se get on Ginny’s good side, just because… I don’t know if we’ve really seen that Ginny and Luna have become such good friends, but we do know that Luna and Harry have a friendship already established.
Grace: Mhm.
Alison: And his reaction to when Ginny talks to him about it is so disappointed… well, not disappointed, but…
Grace: Yeah.
Alison: … it just doesn’t seem at least conscious to me. But I think it’s an interesting idea that maybe it could have been unconscious.
Michael: Yeah.
Grace: Yeah. I mean, we’ve been with Harry now for six books and would he really be thinking that hard about this decision?
[Alison laughs]
Grace: Let’s be serious about this.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: He’s a very nice guy but he’s also very genuine. He’s not going to think of the background repercussions of asking someone out on a date. He’s probably just going to do it and then deal with whatever happens afterwards.
Michael: See, I thought that was an interesting suggestion because the way that it’s written, Harry asks Luna (as BadgerMoleButterbeer said) after – there’s the mention of Ginny in the conversation – he asks Luna very knee-jerk, and then the narration pretty much has him thinking, “What did I just do?”
Alison: Yeah.
[Alison and Grace laugh]
Michael: He’s like…
Grace: That is kind of a Harry reaction, though.
Michael: Yeah, I know. It’s kind of like his tongue reacted before his head, and I think that’s an interesting explanation for that. Like you said, Alison, maybe on an unconscious level he just did it because he heard Ginny’s name and was just like, “Wanna go ball with me?”
[Grace laughs]
Michael: And [he] didn’t realize that he was talking to Luna. But I do think there is also… I wouldn’t want to completely destroy the genuine, nice action that Harry performs by asking Luna to the party. It would seem sad to erase that.
Micah: If he was serious, though, he would have invited her to The Burrow.
Michael: For Christmas?
Alison: For Christmas?
Micah: Yeah.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: Oh no.
Grace: That would have been hilarious.
Micah: That’s the next level we’re talking about here.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: Meeting the family.
Grace: Para familia.
Michael: You’ve got to remember they’re going as friends, right?
Grace: Just friends, guys.
Michael: [as Luna] “I’ve never been asked as a friend.” So… [laughs] it’s a friend thing. [as Harry] “Want to come to the Burrow as a friend?”
[Alison laughs]
Micah: “I don’t even live there.”
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: “That’s not even my real family.”
[Michael laughs]
Micah: All right. Well, now we’ve got some other comments from the last chapter that were sent in on the Alohomora! site. The first one is from Hufflepuffskine. Is that how you say that one?
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison and Michael: Hufflepuffskein.
Micah: Skein, I’m sorry.
Michael: But you were darn close. [laughs]
Micah: He or she says,
“Somewhere I read/heard someone mention that the early attempts like the necklace and the poisoned mead were a rouse – red herrings to sidetrack people into thinking he was just a stupid kid grasping at straws while he is fixing the cabinet…”
I guess they’re referring to Draco.
Michael: Yes.
Micah: [continues]
“I always thought that they were genuine attempts, but the passage at the end of this chapter really cemented it for me that Draco’s Slytherin is showing as he is planning this murder.”
Thoughts?
Grace: I think his desperation is showing more than anything.
Alison: Oh, I always thought they were legitimate attempts.
Grace: Yeah, I thought they were, too.
Michael: I thought they were, too.
Alison: Because he doesn’t know if he can fix the cabinet – he doesn’t know if he’s going to be able to do that. So he just is throwing these out there so that he can succeed somehow.
Michael: Yeah, there were a lot of people on the main site who kind of took this comment as very enlightening, that perhaps Malfoy was actually doing this as a red herring for what he was really doing. But I wasn’t inclined to think so based on what we see of Malfoy later on in the series when he reveals that he’s super vulnerable about this whole thing.
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, I thought those were genuine.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: I always thought they were genuine attempts… bad attempts, but genuine.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Grace: There’s a bit too much emotion invested in the entire mission for him not to be taking genuine stabs at this as things are going on. Because not only is he worried for himself, he’s worried for his mother. Voldemort’s right there.
Michael: Mhm. And what a red herring if he had actually killed somebody who wasn’t the intended target.
Alison: [laughs] Yeah.
Grace: Oh my God.
Michael: [laughs] That would kind of be a problem.
Grace: That would be terrible.
Michael: [laughs] Because Katie Bell was pretty close to being dead.
Grace: Yeah, she was.
Micah: And poor Ron…
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: And poor Ron, who we’ve kind of painted as a jerk in these last few episodes. [laughs]
Micah: Oh, really?
Michael: But nonetheless, poor Ron.
Micah: Well, I’ll try and continue that trend for you.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Michael: Good, good. I look forward to that.
Micah: I agree, though, I think that they were legitimate attempts. And this may be moreso me recalling the film, but in Half-Blood Prince when Draco and Dumbledore are on the tower, they have a conversation about all the different means that Draco went to to try and kill him. And I think there was real feeling behind the necklace and the mead. Maybe I’m misremembering a bit, but I think there is a discussion that takes place and Dumbledore thinks it to be pretty well planned out. But unfortunately for Draco, it doesn’t work out until the very end.
Michael: Yeah.
Grace: I know. It’s surprisingly well planned out for a boy who really hasn’t had to think too hard about planning anything up until this point. I feel like Draco was [in] a lot of “fly by the seat of your pants” kind of planning situation, and he mostly just depended on his father, or his father’s name, to back him up.
Michael: And remember, too… Malfoy reveals in his discussion with Dumbledore at the end that he was actually taking pages out of Harry’s book.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: So that’s his inspiration. That’s why he suddenly became such a good planner.
Grace: No, he’s not obsessed with Harry at all.
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: Nope.
Michael: Nope, there’s no fanfictions out there about that.
Grace: Not today.
[Michael laughs]
Micah: All right. Well, TimDrakeFan wrote in to say,
“I want to take a moment to defend the ‘monster in Harry’s chest’ that nobody seems to like…”
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Micah: I can’t wait to see where this is going.
[Alison, Grace, and Michael laugh]
Micah: [continues]
“Now, I’m still young and have not been in love, but I know enough about humanity to understand that love creates a LOT of feelings. Sometimes it’s referred to as ‘butterflies,’ but it’s essentially similar. As a side[note], J.K. Rowling is NOT the only one to refer to love-like feelings as a ‘monster’; in the Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith novel by Matthew Stover, Anakin is torn apart by his looming decision: save his wife and lose his whole world or stay the Jedi path. This indecision is compared to a ‘monster’ in his stomach throughout the book. Harry is not, of course, looming between light and dark, but he is hovering between ‘Ron’s sister’ and ‘I love her.'”
Michael: Hmm… butterflies and monsters are not the same thing.
[Alison and Grace laugh]
Alison: What part do you see, Michael?
Michael: [laughs] What butterflies are you talking about, TimDrakeFan? You must be horrified of butterflies. [laughs] I don’t know, I get that sentiment, I guess, because there were actually a lot of people discussing on the main site that perhaps the monster isn’t so much representative of love as it is lust…
Alison: Which I definitely think that’s what it is.
Michael: Yeah. In that context I could even see defending the monster metaphor a little more. And I guess my personal continued struggle with the Harry/Ginny relationship and Harry’s feelings toward Ginny is that it’s so integral to Harry’s actions at the end of Deathly Hallows. And you know, we never really see that proper graduation from lust to love. We get mostly lust, and then it’s like “nineteen years later” and they were in love.
Grace: [laughs] They’re married!
Michael: They’re super-married and they have so many children.
Grace: They’re super happy forever. LOL.
Michael: And they gave them stupid names … but I guess that’s why I have problems with it. Just because I guess I felt like… especially because, you know as I’ve cited on other episodes – I don’t know how you guys feel about this – but personally, I think that the Hermione/Ron relationship is really well done in the books.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: There’s so much focus given to it and it’s built up really well. And it has a pretty good arch. Like it actually does kind of cross that lust-to-love arch.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: And Ginny and Harry are supposed to do that narratively, and I think we’re supposed to have the sense that they did, but it never happens. For me, it never happens as a reader. I don’t know…
Grace: I feel like it was supposed to happen in twenty minutes or so.
Michael: [laughs] In this book, right?
Grace: In this book. And the thing is, I love the idea of them being together – I want to love Ginny a lot.
Michael: Mhm.
Grace: Problem is, we don’t have enough time to fall in love with this character.
Michael: Mhm. Well, yeah…
Grace: And it’s a shame because she’s got some of Fred and George’s attitude and she plays Quidditch and she kicks butt and she defends people. But that’s all that you really see – weird behind-the-scenes stuff – and she is almost never in the scene itself.
Michael: Mhm.
Grace: And then suddenly they’re snogging. I just… I don’t know.
Michael: Yeah. Well, and I guess the thing that – and I mentioned this a few episodes before, too – but I’m rereading Order of the Phoenix with my brother and we just finished the part with Harry and Cho’s disasterous date…
[Grace laughs]
Michael: And even then, I was reading it and I was like, this is really well done. People may hate Cho, but she’s well-written and she’s well-developed as a love interest for Harry.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: Like it makes sense… it doesn’t come out of nowhere. There’s time spent on scenes with them together. There’s a lot of dialogue between them. And even that works better, I feel, than Harry/Ginny to some degree – not in the kind of end result, but just in how it’s written.
Grace: Mhm. I agree with you there, and I don’t hate Cho actually. I think that a lot of her actions are very excusable.
Michael: Thank you. Thank you very much.
Grace: Given the position that she’s in… yeah.
Michael: I’m glad to hear that. Yes, she did… her boyfriend did die, you guys. [laughs]
Grace: Yeah. She’s in a really precarious situation, especially with Harry involved.
Michael: Yeah.
Grace: Probably shouldn’t have gotten involved.
[Everyone laughs]
Micah: All right, and the last comment here [is] from Slytherin Knight, who says a whole lot.
[Michael laughs]
Micah: [continues]
“I just realized something about the connections between this book and Order of the Phoenix. After Harry overhear[s] the conversation between Malfoy and Snape, this gives him evidence that Malfoy is up to something and is consorting with known Death Eaters. These clues confirm that Draco has, at the very least, joined the Death Eaters. And yet, Hermione and Ron still don’t believe that Malfoy has chosen this side and is actively trying to do something this year. The connection I’m trying to point out is how, in Order, they [are] some of the few [who] believe[…] him about Voldemort being back while the wider world doesn’t believe him. But now, Harry’s two closest confidants don’t believe him even though Harry now has more evidence on Malfoy than he did about Voldemort being back; all it was in Goblet of Fire was Harry’s word about Voldemort being back, but here you see Harry getting testimony from Malfoy that is added on by Snape’s comments, and yet no one believes him. Didn’t Dumbledore tell the students to tell the Professors if they see anything suspicious going on in light of the dark times they are now facing? This refusal to believe Harry, a total 180 from previous books, is one of the major things that made me list Half-Blood Prince as my least favorite of the Harry Potter books. It seems that Hermione and Ron almost refuse to see the larger picture that Harry is seeing[;] they focus so much on each other’s problems that they don’t see what is right in front of them.”
Michael: Whoa. [laughs]
Alison: I think that’s a great observation. I love it.
Grace: That is a good observation.
Michael: You know, I’m mixed on that because I can see… I definitely have problems. I don’t know about you guys, but I definitely have problems with how the books really stretch Hermione and Ron holding out on their belief…
Alison: No, I agree with that. Yeah.
Michael: … for… with Harry.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: But at the same time, keeping in mind what happened at the end of the fifth book…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: … I think that it’s interesting because I don’t think it’s ever brought up narratively that that’s why Hermione and Ron are doubting Harry. But it seems to be the reason why they would, right?
Grace: Yeah. It’s never directly brought up, but then it also made me think of maybe… Okay, we know that last year Voldemort was in Harry’s head a whole lot more than we thought, and he didn’t even know at the time. [N]either of them did actually.
Michael: Mhm.
Grace: But Harry was a lot angrier and probably a lot more volatile, and we saw that from just how he was acting in Book 5. And maybe it was that last year they did say that they believed in him, but maybe they were doubting a whole lot more behind his back just because he was so scary to be around at that time.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: Ooh, that’s a good point.
Grace: Yeah, because…
Michael: That’s true.
Grace: … I would be scared crapless of someone who’s just screaming and mouthing off and then having weird dreams and then vomiting.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: That’s like, “You’re nuts!” Just… yeah, I would definitely back off from someone like that.
Michael: Well…
Grace: Sorry, Harry. I love Harry, but seriously… [laughs]
Michael: And I would say Order implies that there’s a little bit of that going on. It’s tough because the narration is through Harry’s – like you said, Grace – his warped perception, thanks to Voldemort, that he thinks everybody is talking about him. But I would be surprised if there weren’t moments where Hermione and Ron just kind of agree just because. Like at the end of Order, Hermione’s really… you can tell she doesn’t want to go, but once Harry amasses enough evidence, she’s like, “Okay,” just because she doesn’t want to get her head bitten off.
Alison: Yeah.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: So… and which ends up of course being against her gut instincts in this situation.
Grace: Yeah. Because Hermione’s always right.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Well… and is it? Really, at this point, with the way that the book is written and what’s going on, is it really? I don’t think it’s really that hard to believe that Ron and Hermione are more interested and wrapped up in themselves for once.
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: They’ve spent five years pretty much following Harry to the ends of the earth. So it’s like, “Is it really unreasonable to expect that for one year they might want to focus on their own problems?” So I think that’s what makes the Harry Potter series more realistic, is that these characters get fed up after a while with the things they’ve got to deal with.
Grace: Yeah, I mean, look at Ron in Book 4, for God’s sake.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a great earlier example of that. Because Ron has no reason not to believe Harry in Goblet of Fire.
Grace: Just being all [unintelligible].
Micah: And he doesn’t really have a reason not to believe him. I know we’ll talk about it with the upcoming chapter, but the fact that he mentions the Unbreakable Vow and doesn’t really know what it is, and they have to clarify it for him doesn’t seem like something Harry would just pull out of thin air and use as a reasoning as to what Snape and Draco are up to, so I think that it’s a little disconcerting to see that his closest friends, deep down, don’t really believe him. Hermione, I guess you can understand because she’s a bit more practical, and she tends to side with the adults of the series more often than not, or at least think like they do. So of course the reaction is going to be, “Well, there’s no way that Snape is really working on behalf of the Death Eaters or in cahoots with Draco in any way.” It’s not to say that Ron and Hermione don’t think Draco is up to something. I just don’t think they believe he’s up to something the level of which Harry suspects.
Michael: Well, and that’s the big thing about this, this information drop in the next chapters. Ron is like, “Yeah, you die.” And then it’s not talked about anymore. There are horrific consequences to what Harry has just told Ron, and Ron is like, “Eh, whatever. It’s Christmas. Who cares?” I’ve been saying that before, too. The thing that does shock me, I think – even though he does have so many of his own issues to deal with this year – is Ron and his lack of belief on this, because Ron is the one, in all the previous books, who provides the most outlandish conspiracy theories. So I’m used to him going along with what Harry suggests. I guess Hermione has rubbed off on Ron a little bit good influence because he’s taking her side a lot this year when it comes to this big conspiracy.
Grace: And both of them have definite hormone issues going on, so…
Michael: Yes. And hormones do affect good judgment.
Grace: Oh, yeah.
[Michael laughs]
Micah: All right, well, that wraps up all of the recap comments we got on Chapter 15. Thanks so much to the listeners for sending in your thoughts.
Michael: And we’ve got to shout out to Hufflepuffskein, too, because thank you for leaving us some host love.
Grace: Yeah, that was so sweet.
Michael: That was very nice. We don’t get a lot of host love.
Grace: Made my day.
Michael: So thank you!
Micah: Thanks for audioBooming it.
Michael: AudioBoom! Yes, Micah is now familiar with audioBoom. Yay.
Alison: All right, and well, speaking of Hermione & Ron and Harry & Hermione and all sorts of different pairs, it’s time for our Podcast Question of the Week responses. And our question – just to remind you – was, “For all you Harmony shippers out there, what would have happened if Harry and Hermione had gone to Slughorn’s party together? How would Ron have reacted, and would the events of the chapter and the party have gone any differently? So our first response is from HowamIgoingtotranslatethis, who says,
“Totally fine. Hermione would not have been groped by McLaggen, and Harry would have had someone by his side to witness the Snape-Malfoy […] scene. Maybe then she would have taken his concerns more seriously. In my opinion, there were so many interesting people there, hanging out with Cormac was the worst option for Hermione. She really had to learn the hard way that trying to make people jealous doesn’t pay off.”
Michael: I don’t know if it would have gone totally fine.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: Would she have believed Harry, though, about Malfoy?
Grace: If she was there, probably.
Michael: I don’t know. Hermione has worked so hard to not believe this.
Grace: You could see that conversation going not… she could say, “Oh, he’s not up to something. He’s just…” I don’t know.
Alison: “He’s just trying to get information, blah blah blah.”
[Michael laughs]
Michael: Yeah, which is exactly what we ‘ll see from everybody else in the next chapter, so I wouldn’t be surprised if Hermione leapt to that conclusion because, just like most of the conversations that Harry eavesdrops on, there’s just enough information left out that it’s not definitive enough for anybody to make a call. So yeah, I mean, who knows if Hermione would have even gone with Harry? She might have been separated from him at that point, and he still would have gone on his own. Or she might have refused to go with him to follow Snape and Malfoy.
Grace: And would they both still even fit under the Cloak?
Michael: Yeah, he’d probably be like, “Stay here.”
Grace: Because they’re big kids now. They can’t do that anymore.
Alison: Well, I was going to say, “All three of them fit under it earlier in this book,” so… mostly fit under it.
Grace: Oh, did they really? Okay. Okay, it’s cannon. We’re fine, guys.
[Michael laughs]
Michael: Well, and that comment completely ignores the Ron element, which I think is pretty important to this particular scenario.
Grace: I mean, I’ll be honest: It’s not an unimaginable ship here. They do work remarkably well together. I hate to stick it to the Hermione and Ron shippers.
Michael: Oh, yeah, no, I found that more and more with this reread than any other that I think, actually, Harry and Hermione are fabulously compatible, but they don’t…
Grace: That may be why they don’t work, though. Maybe they work too well together. Is that strange to think of?
Michael: No, no, not at all. I can see that.
Grace: She needs a little bit of… I mean, Ron is clever, but he’s kind of stupid.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: He’s witty and stupid. He’s just not intelligent, but he’s witty. I don’t know. He’s smarter than they make him out to be in the movies. That’s what I’m trying to say.
Micah: So you made it 30 minutes before bashing Ron.
[Alison, Grace, and Michael laugh]
Grace: I’m not bashing him! I promise you. Sometimes it’s charming to be stupid. As in Ron’s case.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: Well, speaking of Ron and his reactions, our next comment comes from AFreeElf, who says,
“Even if Harry explained to him that they just went as friends, I don’t think Ron would be able to forgive him. He would be too paranoid about it, and it would be like one of his worst fears coming true, confirming his worst insecurities. Harry and Ron would have fallen out over it, possibly for a long time if the argument was then Harry and Hermione against Ron[ since] that would lead to even more paranoia and hostility on Ron’s part. I think this is another reason why Harry and Hermione didn’t consider going with each other. Harry could have guessed how Ron would react, and he would never risk it. Even though they would just be going as friends, he would see it as a betrayal because he would know that that’s how Ron would see it. I don’t think Hermione would want to risk dragging Harry into the argument, and to her, it would be going too far: [S]he would know that going with Harry would genuinely hurt Ron, whereas going with McLaggen would be more of a slap in the face.”
Grace: I think it goes by a lot of… I mean, that’s what we’re asking for here, but it goes by a lot of assumptions of things that are going to happen. That this thing will lead to this thing, and this thing will happen here, and Voldemort will win at the end. [laughs]
Michael: Well, if this had happened at this point in the series, could that have affected what happens in Deathly Hallows to a pretty…?
Grace: I think it would have made it even cooler and more dramatic for when Ron finally does get over his craziness.
Michael: Well, I’m just wondering if he would even have those. If Harry and Hermione were able to settle Ron down – reason with him about this – would he even have that insecurity in Deathly Hallows?
Grace: Maybe? Well, I mean, he was wearing the locket, [and] the locket messes a lot with you.
Michael: That’s true. Well, I wonder what the locket would come up with instead of that? Because Ron still does have other insecurities, I suppose.
Grace: Probably his brothers. There'[re] a lot of brother issues.
Michael: Yeah. I feel like they could get this sorted out, but I also don’t know how this would affect Harry wanting to date Ginny and Ron’s reaction to that if Harry took Hermione to the party.
Grace: Would that get between Hermione and Ginny, then?
Michael: Maybe. I don’t know.
Grace: Oh my God.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: That’s true. They are rather sharp, so…
Michael: Well, and Ginny is dating somebody else right now anyway.
Grace: And also, Ginny is not one to jump to conclusions like that either. Neither is Hermione, but I feel like if we got to know Ginny, she might be even more so, less to do that. Because I feel like she a lot like one of the guys. She would just be like, “Oh, okay. That’s great.”
Michael: [laughs]
Micah, who do you ship? [laughs]
Micah: Well, I was just going to say, though, that I always thought – this is just my own take on it – that Harry ending up with Ginny was a way to officially bring him into the Weasley family because of the long-standing relationship he had with Ron. And that’s just my personal take on why Rowling wrote it the way that she did. So as far as “Who do I ship?” I’ve probably talked about different pairings on this show in the past, and it’s gotten me into a lot of trouble, so I think I’m going to stay away from that.
[Alison, Grace, and Michael laugh]
Micah: Because I’ve made some pretty inappropriate references, and in a host capacity here, I’m going to try [to] keep it clean.
Michael: Aww. No fun. [laughs]
Grace: So by this sort of idea, Ginny is sort of just conveniently female. [laughs]
Michael: [laughs] Well, I was going to say, “Harry should have just married Ron.” [laughs]
Grace: Could have. I mean…
Michael: [laughs] He does a lot for Ron. [laughs] He gives Ron a lot of passes. They just should have gotten together. No, but to some degree, Micah, I agree with that, definitely, because there’s been the argument – I’ve seen in many places – that even people who don’t like the epilogue because Harry gets everything that he wants, and there’s pretty much no battle scars in the epilogue, and Rowling has made clear that, well, Harry… she had a path for Harry, and that was the end goal for her that she had developed throughout the books, was that he wanted a family. He never had a full unit family, and that’s what he craved. So she gave him a huge one by putting him in with the Weasleys.
Micah: Yeah, I agree.
Grace: Aww.
Michael: I can see that.
Grace: And also, all of his friends, too. Because he sort of makes his own family. Even in Year 1 he sort of builds his own little family unit. And that’s always what’s really warming about the series.
Alison: All right, and then to round off our Podcast Question of the Week, we got a joke submission from RoseLumos. So guys, why did Harry take his Patronus to the party?
Michael: Why did Harry take his Patronus to the party?
Alison: Because he was going stag! Ahh, I thought so!
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: It made me laugh. Okay. All right, well, thank you, everyone, for answering our Podcast Question of the Week this week. We had a lot of good responses, so head on over to alohomora.mugglenet.com to check all of those out.
Michael: Well, I guess with that, we go into the next chapter, Chapter 16 of Half-Blood Prince.
[Half-Blood Prince Chapter 16 intro begins]
[Sound of Celestina Warbeck singing “A Cauldron Full of Hot, Strong Love”]
Fleur: Chapter 16.
[Sound of Celestina Warbeck singing “A Cauldron Full of Hot, Strong Love” continues]
Fleur: “A Very Frosty Christmas.” Ugh, can you turn that awful music down?
Molly: What, dear? I can’t hear you over this lovely music.
Fleur: Ugh.
[Sound of Celestina Warbeck singing “A Cauldron Full of Hot, Strong Love” continues]
[Half-Blood Prince Chapter 16 intro ends]
Michael: We’re back at the Burrow for the holidays with Harry telling anyone who will listen about Snape and Malfoy’s mysterious conversation. Remus Lupin seems to be the only person willing to lend Harry a sympathetic if skeptical ear while also providing updates on the Order’s activities and debunking a few theories about the Half-Blood Prince’s identity. Following some disappointing gifts, including a sappy necklace from Lavender and a bag of maggots from Kreacher, Harry and the Weasleys receive an unexpected and unwelcome Christmas Day surprise when a rigid Percy and an inquisitive Rufus Scrimgeour show up under the pretense of a friendly visit. But Harry isn’t fooled by Scrimgeour’s tricks, refusing to become the Ministry’s poster boy in the fight against Voldemort. So with all of that serious stuff in the summary, let’s talk about Celestina Warbeck because that’s important. Because I don’t think we’ve actually discussed her on the show in depth.
Micah: She performs regularly at the Wizarding World of Harry Potter.
Grace: Yeah, have you guys heard her?
Alison: No, because I’ve heard…
Michael: Not only have I heard her…
Micah: What have you done with her?
Michael: I’ve performed one of her songs. I’ve covered…
Micah: With her?!
Alison: Yes!
Michael: No, I wish, I wish.
Alison: I knew you would.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Oh my God, I love her so much.
Michael: I covered one her songs at the library for one of my children’s programs to great delight from the kids. I sang – oh, which one was it? – “You Stole My Cauldron, But You Can’t Have My Heart.”
Alison: Oh!
Michael: I sang that one at the library at our Late Night at the Library party. Which there is video of, listeners, in one of the previous episodes if you care to hunt it down. But a little background on Celestina: She was born on the 18th of August. Her wand is larch and phoenix feather and is ten and a half inches long and flexible, which is described, actually, in the song “You Stole My Cauldron, But You Can’t Have My Heart.” She’s a Gryffindor. Her special abilities include the ability to drown out a chorus of banshees…
Alison: [laughs] That’s my favorite.
Michael: … tap dancing, and fancy baking. She had a wizard father and a Muggle mother, she’s been married three times and has a son, and her hobbies include traveling in fabulous style, breeding rough-coated Crups, and relaxing in any of her eight homes. Just a short summary of Celestina: She’s the internationally acclaimed singing sensation sometimes known as the Singing Sorceress, and she hails from Wales. Her father, a minor functionary in the Muggle liaison office, met her Muggle mother, a failed actress, when the latter was attacked by a Lethifold disguised as a stage curtain. Celestina’s extraordinary voice was apparent from an early age. Disappointed to learn that there was no such thing as a wizarding stage school, Mrs. Warbeck reluctantly consented to her daughter’s enrollment to Hogwarts but subsequently bombarded the school with letters urging the creation of a choir, theater club, and dancing class to showcase her daughter’s talents.
[Grace laughs]
Michael: Frequently appearing with a chorus of backing banshees, Celestina’s concerts are justly famous. Three devoted fans were involved in a nasty three-broom pile-up over Liverpool while trying to reach the last night of her Flighty Aphrodite tour…
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Grace: I love that bit.
Michael: … and her tickets often appear on the black market at vastly inflated prices, which is one reason why Molly Weasley has never yet seen her favorite singer live.
Alison: Aww.
Michael: Celestina has sometimes lent her name and talents to good causes such as raising funds for St. Mungo’s Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries with a recording of Puddlemere United’s anthem, “Beat Back Those Bludgers Boys and Chuck that Quaffle Here.”
Alison: And I want to hear that. That’s the next one I want. Someone like that because I want that. [laughs]
Michael: It is fully written, and it is performed at the park.
Alison: Someone send me a video. I want it.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: It’s on YouTube!
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Dang it! Okay.
Michael: You can actually have everything that you want, Alison, when it comes to Celestina Warbeck. [laughs]
Grace: Yes. You win!
Alison: I just need to get down there someday, that’s all.
Michael: [laughs] More controversially, Celestina was vocal in her disagreement with the Ministry of Magic when they sought to impose restrictions on how the wizarding community was allowed to celebrate Halloween. Some of Celestina’s best known songs include “You Charmed the Heart Right out of Me” and a “Cauldron Full of Hot Strong Love,” which, of course, listeners, are briefly mentioned in this chapter, and again, which were given full lyrics and are performed at the Wizarding World. Her fans are usually older people who love her grandstanding style and powerful voice. The late twentieth-century album, You Stole My Cauldron, But You Can’t Have My Heart, was a massive global hit. Celestina’s personal life has provided much fodder for the gossip columns of the Daily Prophet. An early marriage to a backing dancer lasted only a year. Celestina then married her manager, with whom she had a son, only to leave him for the composer Irving Warble ten years later. And just briefly as well, J.K. Rowling says that Celestina is one of her favorite offstage characters. She was included a lot in a Daily Prophet series that Rowling wrote for her very short-lived fan club that Bloomsbury had. And Rowling says that she modeled her after Shirley Bassey, who if you’ve ever heard of “Goldfinger,” then you know.
Alison: Oh my God, really?
Michael: Yes. [laughs]
Alison: That’s awesome!
Michael: [laughs] And actually, if you look at how they style Celestina in the park, she does look a lot like Shirley Bassey. But yeah, Celestina exploded into the expanded canon of Harry Potter once the books were over. She gets her shining moment here, though, where we do hear a few of her songs in this chapter, and I have to say, “If Fleur doesn’t like these songs, she has bad taste.”
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Michael: Because these songs are excellent, if you’ve heard them. They’re really catchy. They’re really good songs.
Grace: They really are. This might have to get cut out, but yeah, she can suck it. Those are awesome great songs. [laughs]
Michael: No, that doesn’t need to be cut out. We actually had a whole episode called “Suck It, Naysayers.” [laughs]
Grace: [laughs] No way, really?
[Michael laughs]
Grace: Cool.
Michael: That’s acceptable. That is acceptable.
Grace: Yeah, no, she can just go […] be French somewhere else.
Michael: [laughs] But among all of this Celestina Warbeck warbling, Harry is trying to pretty much get to anybody who might believe him, and as we discussed earlier, Ron has pretty much denied him that. Ron says he believes him but is backing off on the topic. Mr. Weasley pretty much doubts him completely, so Harry turns to somebody who – I don’t know about you guys, but – I’ve been missing for a very, very long time.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: [laughs] Look who’s sitting over by the fireplace.
Alison: This is a perfect chapter for you.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Why do you think I requested it? [laughs] Remus Lupin is sitting by the fireplace being super sad and emo…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: … and he catches that Harry is talking about all this to Mr. Weasley, and he wants to hop into the conversation. So there'[re] a lot of things that Lupin brings up in his discussion, which is why Lupin is awesome. This is where we’re going to shower some Lupin love here, because he gets a lot of big moments. So first of all, just a little bit of some sad bits here: Lupin refers to the werewolves who he is working with as his equals.
Alison: Oh, it hurts me.
Grace: Ugh.
Michael: That made me sad. [laughs]
Grace: I have issues with that.
Alison: This just speaks so much to how self-deprecating Lupin is, is that he can’t see how much better he is than them, and it makes me sad.
Michael: Yeah. Grace, what were you going to say, since you have issues?
Grace: Oh. Well, I mean, he refers to them as equals, but really, they… he’s come from such a background where he’s so filled with love, and they’re filled with a lot of despair. And I’m not saying that they’re not equals in that they are all in a sense human, but they’re all being transformed into something that’s much less human because they’re following someone who is not so nice.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Grace: And I’ll get to that later. I don’t want to cut off all the other really awesome points you’ve got.
Michael: Well, and leading into that, Lupin reveals that he’s been doing a lot of work for the Order. We’ve touched on this before, and it’s really… Pottermore even provided us with a full background on Lupin, and it still didn’t really answer what is going on in this chunk of Lupin’s life. The big questions for me here are “How did Lupin convince the other werewolves to trust him?” and “Is Lupin actually transforming into a werewolf with them and spending full moons with them?”
Alison: Yes.
Michael: What does this work entail?
Alison: I definitely think he has to be transforming with them. Whether he’s doing the things they’re doing when they’re werewolves, if they can even interfere with each other… I don’t even know if they can interact with each other as werewolves.
Grace: Yeah. I don’t know if he is, to be honest with you.
Michael: Well, because they’re killing people. [laughs]
Grace: Yeah. They’re going out and murdering and/or converting people.
Michael: Yeah. And that’s what Lupin implies, is the way to gain their trust is to subscribe to their ideals.
Grace: The family that slays together…
Michael: [laughs] And that’s very much what I’m… like I said, I’m just shocked that Lupin even is managing to get in with their crowd at all.
Alison: Well, do they know who he is? I feel like if he used a fake name…
Michael: I guess not. [laughs]
Alison: I feel like they hid it well enough that… well, maybe not, I guess, because Snape told everyone.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Alison: But if these werewolves have really separated themselves so much from society, maybe they haven’t heard of him. And so maybe if he comes to them with a fake name, and he’s just like, “Yo, I’m a werewolf,” and they’re like, “Okay, come join us,” then that’s all he really needs.
Michael: I guess then you have to go under the assumption that once Greyback bit Lupin, there’s no connection between the two of them after that until up to this point.
Micah: Yeah, that’s a good point.
Alison: Which Pottermore seems to suggest there’s not.
Michael: Yeah. Well, I don’t know. It just seems weird because Greyback knows who the Lupin family is because he targeted their family specifically. [laughs] So that just seems like a little bit of a hole. And again, did they just…? What do they do when they hang out as werewolves? Do they just hang out in caves and eat red meat?
Alison: Oh, gross.
Michael: What are they doing? [laughs]
Grace: Discussing all the children they’ve attacked.
Michael: Yeah. What is this? I just don’t get…
Alison: I feel like they’d be very primeval and very… I don’t know, just all the time. That’s the gist I’ve gotten from things, is that they’re very carnal all the time.
Grace: That’s exactly what I was going to say.
Alison: Because they have put themselves into this position.
Michael: Well, and like the issue you mentioned before, too, Alison and Grace, and the issue of when they are werewolves, do they retain enough of their minds to communicate? Can they communicate? Because…
Alison: Well, they listen to the call of their own kind, so maybe they can communicate somehow.
Michael: I’m pretty sure that’s movie canon. [laughs]
Alison: Oh, really?
Michael: I think so. Is it?
Alison: Oh, I thought it was in the book.
Michael: I don’t know.
Alison: Maybe I’m not thinking right.
Grace: They don’t give too much on werewolves communicating in the books themselves. It’s just like, “There’s a werewolf. Let’s run away from it.”
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Alison: That’s true.
Michael: Yeah, I think the communication thing is set up just so that Hermione can do the “ahoo” bit.
Alison: Okay, I thought that was part of the book.
Micah: You’ve got to have a hippogriff nearby to save your butt.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Yes.
Grace: It’s a very specific set of instructions.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: Is it in Fantastic Beasts?
Michael: Well, there’s not that much… I think werewolves are mentioned in Fantastic Beasts, but there’s not that much given about them.
Micah: As far as these other werewolves, though, I wonder, is it really any different than how Voldemort goes about recruiting his Death Eaters in the sense of… I know not all of them consciously made decisions to join that cause, but a lot of them probably did and were influenced by other people, so is it really any different than what Lupin is doing here? The human/wizard side of it, they have the choice to some extent. Obviously, there’s a force behind a lot of what Voldemort does in terms of influencing people, but let’s just say for the sake of this conversation that they have the choice. They can go along with the Death Eaters and Voldemort or they can choose to remain neutral or they can side with the Order and Dumbledore. I don’t think the werewolves are any different. I think there are some that would choose to side with Voldemort [and] there are some that would choose to side with Lupin and the Order, and it’s just about who can do the best convincing. Just like when Hagrid went off to try to parley with the giants…
Alison: Hmm, yeah.
Micah: … I see it as being somewhat of a conscious decision.
Michael: You know why that… because that’s… what you described, Micah, is kind of exactly what I would have wanted to see happen, because I think that’s my… I have the same, I guess, disappointment here that I did with Hagrid and the giants because Hagrid doesn’t get any of the giants to side with them.
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: The only one they get is Grawp. And he is…
Grace: Well, he’s…
Michael: … useful…
Grace: Oh, sorry. Go ahead.
Michael: Oh, I was just going to say, he is useful in the final battle, but he’s the only one they’ve got on their side out of all the giants in the world, and then the same thing happens with the werewolves, is Lupin…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: … is the only werewolf on their side in the end.
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: I mean, wouldn’t it have been awesome if there had been some… if the good guys had had a little contingent of werewolves too? Oh, oh…
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: … let’s rewrite the seventh book, you guys!
[Grace laughs]
Michael: I already have ideas. This is fabulous!
Grace: True. I mean, looking at it seriously, though, what really can the side… let’s call it the side of light, for lack of a better word. What can they really offer them? Because the Ministry has pretty much chopped them out of everything and they’ve pretty much made them into monsters – and this is both for the giants and for the werewolves – so anything that Voldemort promises, in a sense, has to be better than what they’ve gotten thus far. And even if it happens to be on the side of Fenrir in that they get more victims, at least they have a sense of respect through fear rather than having no respect whatsoever and being subjugated to being beasts and foolish and sort of just shoved off to the side as something terrible…
Alison: But that could be what they’re…
Grace: … and…
Alison: Sorry, keep going.
Grace: Yeah, no, it’s fine. And it’s just… I also thought it was really interesting, the comparison between Voldemort and Fenrir, in that Voldemort is… the way that he recruits is almost entirely mental. [laughs] Yeah, it’s insane but more so it’s mental, whereas Fenrir, the way that he would recruit, in a sense, would be [in] much more of a physical way; he physically forces these people to follow him. And I feel like because of that, Voldemort might even just be… well, yes, he’s using Fenrir, but he just doesn’t take that man seriously just because he doesn’t take it to that next mental level.
Alison: Well, I think what they could be offering them then – what Lupin could be offering them – is saying, “Come act more human and people will see you as humans again and they’ll give you better treatment.” I don’t know, that could be the…
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: I think Grace is right, though, that… because I think that, Alison, you’re right that that’s probably the best Lupin has to offer…
Alison: Uh-huh.
Michael: … but I think Grace is right in terms of thinking about… the werewolves are probably thinking about immediate satisfaction. Which I think is what pretty much everybody who sides with Voldemort is thinking, because Voldemort doesn’t have long-term plans; he’s just like, “I’ll give you what you want.”
Micah: Yeah.
Michael: And in the end, he’s not even really going to give them what they want. Of course he’s not, because he’s crazy.
[Micah and Michael laugh]
Grace: Well, I mean…
Alison: Yeah.
Grace: … he might, essentially because keeping them loyal gives him more power. So he might, for certain periods of time, keep giving them what they want. And if it keeps giving him exactly what he wants, he’ll keep doing it.
Michael: I guess I’m thinking in terms, too, of just Voldemort… I think that’s true, but I think Voldemort is also happy to dispose of people who he finds useless.
Grace: Oh yeah, definitely. [laughs]
Alison: Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Michael: You have that added risk that, sure, you may get everything you want, but if you’re not useful to Voldemort anymore he’ll just kill you. [laughs] So it’s kind of an extreme trade-off.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: But I guess bad guys don’t think that way.
Micah: And Lupin doesn’t really have a leg to stand on, so to speak.
Michael: No! [laughs]
Alison: Yeah.
Micah: Because he can try [to] make his case, but it’s just going to get thrown back in his face…
Alison: That’s true.
Grace: Mhm.
Micah: … because he lost his post at Hogwarts. He tried to integrate better into society, and look how it all turned out.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: Yeah.
Micah: So the Ministry, as was mentioned before, and just really the wizarding community as a whole, has done a poor job of trying to really have an equal society…
Grace: Mhm.
Micah: … in the sense of werewolves – and, really, others – and we see that come back to favor Voldemort and his side of the cause and all these different creatures, [laughs] for lack of a better term, end up supporting him instead of the Order.
Michael: The other things that Lupin talks about… he does briefly talk to Harry about Snape, and what I do appreciate about this conversation is that while Lupin still doubts Harry like everybody else, I think Lupin has the best reasoned argument out of everybody about why he does.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: And he gives Harry a very fair reasoning for why he doesn’t agree with him. And he even concedes that “You’re going to believe what you believe, and you should feel free to, and even approach Dumbledore about it. He said you could approach him, so do it.” But I do like that Lupin is pretty much the only one who is even remotely entertaining Harry on this.
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: It’s nice because nobody else is doing it.
Alison: It’s a very Lupin thing to do.
Michael: As mentioned before, Lupin also does reveal… we have a lot more information on this now thanks to Pottermore, but Lupin… this was the first reveal of his past, and that Fenrir Greyback was the werewolf who bit him. Listeners, not only can you find much more information on that on Pottermore, but we also did an episode completely focused on Lupin’s backstory that was revealed, so make sure to check that out if you’re looking for more Lupin love in addition to this episode. But it’s a great point to go back and reexamine that information because it really does a lot to fill out this portion of the story, because the other thing that is definitely touched upon a lot is Lupin and Tonks!
Alison: Who have the cutest love story. I’m just going to throw that out there. I love it!
Michael: Who have a fabulous, extra-canonical love story that doesn’t take place in the books. [laughs]
Alison: No. But it’s beautiful. It’s one of my favorite parts of the new Pottermore.
Michael: Well, I was going to ask kind of what everybody’s feelings are – maybe were before and are now – on Lupin and Tonks, because of course what happens in this chapter is that Fleur very rudely brings up Tonks in a derogatory way, and Harry mistakes Mrs. Weasley’s angry stare [toward] Lupin as her anger toward Fleur and misdirected anger, but of course, what’s really happening is that Mrs. Weasley invited Tonks, and she didn’t [come], and Lupin and Tonks are not at Christmas together. Her matchmaking is not working out.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Michael: But what were your guys’ feelings on Lupin and Tonks then and perhaps now as the storyline has evolved through Pottermore?
Grace: I love the idea of them together. I do think that they’re really uber adorable, which is great to see that they actually do end up getting together. I really lack a really strong opinion on them because I think everything works out the way that I wanted it to.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Grace: Aside from the very end.
Michael: The end.
Grace: Yeah. The end!
[Michael laughs]
Alison: I think… I mean, I liked them before, but then the new Pottermore information… Just having that whole backstory just really sealed that one for me. I mean, I think I’ve told this story before, that one of the points where I almost didn’t finish the last book was when Remus and Tonks die. [laughs] I put the book down, and I was like, “She just killed them. I cannot finish this. She will kill everyone I love.” [laughs] So…
Michael: I chucked my book across the room.
Grace: It’s okay. She killed my favorite character too.
Michael: Which one was yours?
Grace: [laughs] You guys know my favorite character.
Michael: Oh, Voldemort!
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Micah: Well, he had to die. Sorry about that.
Alison: Yeah, just a little bit.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: I guess I ask because, like how Micah had mentioned before that Ginny and Harry were convenient, I always felt initially that Lupin and Tonks were convenient until Pottermore fleshed it out more. That’s when I was like, “Oh yeah, okay, I can buy this.” Grace, you had a few points too about Lupin that I thought were worthy of touching on.
Grace: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I feel like Lupin… I’m a sucker for symbolism and positioning and everything that’s really careful about writing. Lupin is positioned right before the fire, and he’s also described as looking even more ragged than usual. I feel like his character – if anything, right now more than ever – is starved for human attention. Because he jumps into that conversation. He jumps on that like a hobo on a ham sandwich.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: He just really wants to talk to people. For the first time in forever. And he’s also justifying his entire mission by the fact that Dumbledore told him to and all of his beliefs in Snape, just blind loyalty toward Dumbledore. And it’s strange that Harry should question him now, at the beginning of the chapter, and then take his stance by the end. And I don’t know. Maybe it’s him unconsciously following somewhat of a father figure here, but I feel like that’s something definitely to note about the relationship between Harry and Lupin, and I wish we probably would have seen more interaction between the two of them, but…
Michael: No, I agree because I think this interaction is pretty… As wonderful as the whole Harry Potter series is written, and of course, I am biased [since] Lupin is my favorite character, but this is some of my…
Micah: Mine too.
Michael: Oh, hey! Well, how about that? But I don’t know about you guys, but when I read Lupin’s passages, they feel… I don’t know. Is there a word for it? It’s magical.
Micah: Clearly not. There'[re] no words.
Grace: He’s the father figure that Harry needed.
Alison: Well, because [not only is he] willing to listen, but he’s also willing to discuss. Whereas Dumbledore will listen but not talk to you about anything, and he’s always…
Grace: And Sirius will not listen but talk to you about everything.
Alison: Yeah. [laughs]
Michael: Yes, no, that’s perfect. That’s exactly it, is that all these other characters aren’t discussing with Harry. They’re looking for ways to shut him down.
Grace: Yeah. Oh, and my point with the positioning by the fire is that he’s trying to warm himself. He just needs to warm himself with human contact.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Michael: Oh, that’s so sad.
Grace: It really is. It is, and I love this character…
Alison: Sad Lupin.
Grace: … and it saddens me to see him in this position.
Michael: Oh, yeah. No, I always… and I guess that’s the other reason I love it when Lupin does show up because it’s… Really this reread more than any, but I always felt this way, is that Lupin is such a great character to be out of the series for such long periods of time, is I think it’s really hard to see him not make major appearances. So…
Micah: I thought it was a great point that was just brought up about the contrast between this scene and then what happens at the end of the chapter with Scrimgeour in terms of the loyalty factor because Harry is willing to criticize Lupin here on the Dumbledore front, but then when he’s talking with the Minister, it’s him who ends up taking that position, so I really like that point. And then just about Lupin as a character, I mean, Prisoner of Azkaban is my favorite book.
Alison and Michael: Me too!
Micah: And I think that, in large part, is because of Lupin. And you all touched on the fact that he is really the only tie to Harry’s past [who]’s willing to talk about it with him. Sirius, obviously, doesn’t last too long to be able to do that, but I really see Lupin becoming that fatherly figure to him more so in that book. And he’s really the catalyst for Harry learning everything about Defense Against the Dark Arts, about learning what inevitably is going to help him defeat Voldemort, and so that really to me was what made him stand out as being one of the best characters in the entire series.
Michael: Oh, yeah. Fun fact for all of you listeners out there: I think I’ve said this fact before, but even Daniel Radcliffe knew that because for Order of the Phoenix, he actually helped with the costume design for Harry during the DA lessons. He wanted a sweater vest like Lupin wears.
Grace: Aww.
Michael: So that sweater vest he’s wearing…
Grace: That’s adorable.
Michael: … is based on Lupin’s costumes. Yeah, and he requested that. So yeah, even Daniel Radcliffe knows who the best character is.
Grace: And one more point in the comparison between Fenrir and Lupin: They are literally polar opposites in the fact that Lupin mentions that Fenrir specializes in turning children, and then it sounds like a disgusting thing to do, but then you think about it. They’re turning children in the exact opposite ways in that Fenrir is attacking [children] and either murdering or turning them into werewolves as well, and he’s using force, fear, and revenge. And then you get someone like Lupin whose specialty is pretty much raising children in hopes that they’ll be better people with love and kindness. So they’re both dealing with children, just in completely different ways.
Alison: That’s very true.
Michael: Yeah, I think we get that a lot in the Harry Potter series, I think with lots of different characters. We’ve talked about this a lot with Harry and Voldemort but especially with these revelations through the memories about how Harry and Voldemort had a very similar upbringing, but they both chose the completely opposite paths and moralities, and I guess this is another example of that, then.
Micah: You could say the same of Arthur and Lucius.
Grace: That’s true! That one did not occur to me.
Michael: Yes! Listeners, please, if you think of any more extreme opposites, extreme paths in character development, do let us know in your comments this week. And Lupin not only reveals a lot about himself and about werewolves in the Harry Potter world, [but] he actually does a lot of world-building in this short time he has with Harry [too]. First of all, he rules out quite a few candidates for [the] Half-Blood Prince. Very disappointingly, it is not James, Sirius, or Lupin himself. Very tragic. Lupin is very blindsided by the “Half-Blood Prince” term. He has no idea what it means. He also reveals that… This is a very interesting twist, I thought, in the Half-Blood Prince development. Wizarding royalty doesn’t exist, so now from this point, we know that the Prince is not, perhaps, a prince.
Grace: He’s not for real for real.
Michael: He’s not legit a prince, so…
Alison: That part is so interesting to me, though, because she said on Pottermore somewhere that wizards very much mixed with Muggles in the nobles. I find it so fascinating that… Does she mean just in the wizarding world [itself] there'[re] no princes or is she saying that they haven’t…? Because oh, I don’t know. I am now thinking of fan fiction where some wizard decides to infiltrate the nobles and go […] become royalty. Maybe I’ve been reading too much [unintelligible], but…
Grace: And become king? Yeah.
Michael: No, no, no, no! I was going to say, though, there is canon in the past that there were wizarding individuals, including the Malfoy family, who infiltrated royalty and got what they wanted out of it, and it’s interesting to me that, especially [in], I guess, the British wizarding system, I’m assuming that there'[re] elements of the Ministry that are modeled after the Muggle Ministry, and so… But there was no royalty, there’s no monarchy that developed out of it. There was no royal line that, I guess, survived or that pure-bloods didn’t take that to become royalty after a time. So there’s no royalty. Lupin also reveals that spells go in and out like fads, including [the] Levicorpus [jinx], which we know now was invented by Snape.
Alison: But how did that become popular if it’s non-verbal? Did Snape do it one day and one of his dormmates was like, “Oh, what was that?” and he was like, “You say Levicorpus in your head,” and it just spread from there? That’s what I find interesting about that, is how does something become popular if you don’t know what someone’s saying? [laughs]
Michael: Well, he must have… I mean, I’m assuming the first people, if he would have spread it to anybody, would have been his fellow budding Death Eaters, right?
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: So I guess it’s not too out of the realm of possibilities to think that maybe one of them told somebody from another House, and it just bled out from there, right? Or other Slytherins who were using it and one of them gave it away. Because the spell works verbally. You could say “Levicorpus,” and it would work, right?
Alison: Does it? In the book?
Grace: Yeah. I mean, what’s stopping people from using [the Levitation Charm] on a person?
Michael: I don’t know.
Alison: Is there a [unintelligible]?
Grace: Yeah, this is my big confusion. “Levicorpus” does sound really cool. Don’t get me wrong.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: It’s like, you’re lifting a corpse! Ahh! But it’s exactly the same thing as [the Levitation Charm].
Michael: Yeah, there'[re] a lot of spells in the books that have very similar, if not the same, functions.
Grace: Wizards just like to be redundant. [laughs]
Michael: Maybe you can’t apply [the Levitation Charm]… Well…
Alison: Well, it could be the way you’re lifted, right? Because [the] Levicorpus [jinx] lifts you up at the ankles, whereas I feel like [the Levitation Charm] would just make you start floating.
Michael: Can you even use [the Levitation Charm] on people?
Alison: I don’t know. That’s true. It could have a weight restriction.
Grace: I can’t see why not.
Michael: Because Harry tries to use [the Summoning Charm] on Hagrid, and that doesn’t work.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Grace: I don’t think you want that to work. Let’s be honest.
Michael: There might be multiple reasons for that.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Michael: Now, Lupin also puts Harry on the track of checking when the Half-Blood Prince’s book was published, his copy of Advanced Potion Making, which Harry finds out was around 50 years ago, which is circa 1946, which supposedly rules out individuals who were in the Marauders’ era. But of course, we find out that that is not the case and that actually throws us off track of who it could be.
Grace: Was anyone else thinking Tom Riddle at that point?
Alison: Yes. Interesting connection to Chamber of Secrets because the diary is also said to be published 50 years ago, so I remember the first time I read it, I was like, “Wait… book… 50 years ago… ahh!”
Michael: Well, yeah, isn’t it surprising that Harry doesn’t think that it’s Voldemort? He doesn’t ever in canon think it’s Voldemort, does he?
Grace: Yeah, it’s like, this book thing has happened before, dear.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Well, yeah, and if you go with ring theory, then Harry should acknowledge it because Chamber and Half-Blood… I mean, notwithstanding the fact that Rowling has said that she took elements out of Chamber and put them in Half-Blood… It’s funny to think that Harry wouldn’t make that connection.
Micah: And Ginny, right? Well, at least in the movie, right? She brings that fact up to him.
Michael: She does in the book, too. I think in the book, it’s actually… she takes the book from him in the movie and teases him. But yeah, I think it’s in the book that she says the whole… well, it’s in Book 5 that she brings up about being possessed. But yeah, I don’t remember if they actually acknowledge that it could’ve been Voldemort, which surprised me because it just seems like it’s such an obvious suggestion.
Grace: Yeah, it seems like they hand it to you.
Michael: Well, and maybe it’s because… I guess if Harry thought it was Voldemort, he would probably immediately stop using the book.
Alison: Well, it sets it up as a red herring, too, to have that conclusion.
Michael: That’s true. I wonder if that was even maybe the intended conclusion at one point when she had all this stuff in Chamber of Secrets. Because originally, Chamber of Secrets was titled Half-Blood Prince. So maybe… because the thing is, I had thought about that because if she had titled… her original intention was to title Chamber of Secrets Half-Blood Prince, and if the revelation was that Snape was the Half-Blood Prince in Book 2, that would completely throw off the whole…
Grace: That would’ve been lame.
Michael: Well, it would throw off the whole thing. The rest of the series just wouldn’t work. So maybe Voldemort was supposed to be the Half-Blood Prince [laughs] at some point.
Alison: Interesting with the way it worked out, this now suggests that Snape’s mother went to Hogwarts with Voldemort.
Michael: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’s right.
Alison: So I don’t know. They probably knew each other.
Michael: Well, yeah, because they were both… well, I think it’s assumed that Eileen was in Slytherin, so… yeah, I guess they…
Alison: Now there’s going to be fan fiction about that.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Grace: Oh, God.
Michael: You said it. Now it’s there. Anyway…
Micah: I’m sure it already exists.
Grace: McGonagall and Voldemort wasn’t enough.
[Alison and Grace laugh]
Michael: And Grace, you had more symbolism for us.
Grace: Oh, about the gifts.
Michael: Yeah, Harry[‘s] and Ron’s Christmas presents.
Grace: Okay. Yeah, it’s just me and my symbolism again. [laughs] I like looking up stuff like this because it’s really interesting. I don’t know if J.K. Rowling necessarily meant to plant this in here, but…
Michael: Oh, she probably did.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Grace: It’s possible.
Micah: She’s smart.
Grace: I mean, Harry… it’s a very striking imagery and just… Harry gets a bag of maggots for Christmas.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Grace: And it’s sort of horrifying in one sense.
Michael: Yes, it is.
Grace: But in more than one sense, if you’re thinking of who it’s coming from, maggots as a gift… from Kreacher, maggots are a symbolism of something eating away at you, from what I saw when I looked this up, because I thought that it was interesting that he could have given him anything. He could’ve given him a pile of crap, basically.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Grace: But he gave him maggots in particular, and maggots are something that feed off of your worst fears, and it shows that either something’s eating away at you or you’re hiding something or running away from something. And it’s something that you can’t necessarily stop unless you destroy this thing. And what Kreacher currently is hiding from everyone is the fact that Regulus was slaughtered in order for him to live. And he can’t tell anyone about this. And this has just been stewing and eating away at him for literally years now. So I thought that that was an interesting choice of gift and that he will be telling Harry later, so essentially he’s destroying the maggots in the seventh book. And the necklace for Ron is interesting because necklaces are supposed to be symbols of love and devotion, but in this sense and the fact that it’s hung around his neck, it’s almost like a collar for a pet.
Michael: [laughs] Yeah, I think that’s pretty…
Micah: Especially from Lavender.
Michael: Well, yeah. I think as far as Harry and Ron receiving their presents, it’s always difficult for… I think the part that’s most difficult for me to read is when Ron is like, [as Ron] “So is Hermione really going out with McLaggen?” And Harry is like, [as Harry] “Oh, I don’t think so. I think that went really badly.” And Ron is like, [as Ron] “Hmph, good.” I’m like, “You have no place to talk, sir.”
Grace: Meanwhile, you’re sitting there with your collar. I mean, necklace.
Michael: With your collar around your… [laughs] “My Sweetheart” collar, tightened around your neck.
[Grace laughs]
Michael: Yeah, no. No. But that’s an excellent interpretation of the maggots, though. I really like that.
Grace: Oh, thank you.
Michael: I could totally see that being… I mean, with some of the stuff that Rowling has revealed on Pottermore about how in-depth she considered pretty much everything, she rarely does things just because. I totally think that would… I’m sure if you asked her now… because of course she’s listening to the show…
[Alison laughs]
Michael: So even if that wasn’t what she was thinking, she’s going to tell people that from now on. [laughs] [as J.K. Rowling] “Oh, yes, yes. The maggots were the eating away…”
Grace: [laughs] I hope she does.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: That would be great.
Grace: If I had met her, I would either just burst into tears or pass out, so…
Michael: [laughs] I’m sure we’ll get to ask her because I’m sure she’s dying to be on the last episode.
Grace: Oh my goodness.
Michael: She’s just waiting her turn in line.
Micah: I’ll see what I can do about that.
Alison: [laughs] On Twitter?
Michael: Make that happen, Micah.
Alison: Are you’re going to ask her on Twitter. [laughs]
Micah: We go way back. Yeah, on Twitter.
Michael: That’s right, because Micah is following her on Twitter.
Micah: I do. I follow her.
[Alison and Grace laugh]
Micah: She doesn’t follow me, but that’s okay.
[Michael laughs]
Micah: We’ll work that out at a later point, but on the topic of symbolism, though – and maybe it’s even a bit of foreshadowing – I know we touched on it a little bit earlier, the scene between Harry and Ron when they’re talking about what Draco is up to, the Unbreakable Vow, but there’s a moment where Fred and George come in, and they have this whole discussion, and Ron gets pissed off because the twins won’t help them finish their chores so they can get done early, and Ron throws a knife, and it’s thrown toward Fred.
[Alison gasps]
Grace: Oh my God. I forgot that.
Alison: Oh my gosh, I didn’t even notice.
Micah: And I thought it covers a little bit of a hint from Rowling that perhaps Fred is going to die in Deathly Hallows.
Grace: [gasp] Oh, and by the way, Fred was the first one to start getting all uppity when they mentioned Percy.
Alison: Oh my God.
Grace: Yeah, and so when Percy is the one [who] returns, who goes out?
Michael: Ahh. I would believe that because I know Rowling has said, too, that there'[re] some deaths that happened in some of the books, including Hallows, that she didn’t always intend or that happened later in her writing process. Lupin and Tonks weren’t supposed to die, and they ended up replacing Arthur.
Grace: She was just feeling murderous that day.
Michael: I guess so. So I don’t know. But I could see Fred’s death already having been planned by this point because it is so integral.
Alison: Oh my gosh. I can never not see it now.
Michael: Yeah, when you think about it in relation to this scene, that makes sense, especially like you said, Grace, with Percy. And speaking of Percy, Scrimgeour and Percy come waltzing in to the Burrow, and everybody knows exactly what they’re up to right away. Because they suck.
Grace: Even though actually Rufus is very cordial.
Michael: Yeah, but it’s…
Alison: Oh, but he’s so oily. Maybe it’s just me, but it’s too much. It’s too much.
Michael: I love the part where he points at Harry, and he’s like, “That lad is finished with his meal. Clearly, I have no idea who he is.” [laughs]
Alison: I love how the narrator says, “This makes no sense because Ginny, George, and Fleur are also done.”
Michael: Yeah. [laughs]
Grace: It’s so true.
Michael: Well, and Grace, it looks like you had a few things to say about Percy.
Grace: My general thoughts on Percy are that he’s very much hated among the family because of this whole departure that he has, and I think Ron goes for the same sort of… he has the same sort of hatred that attacks him later on because he does depart from the group, actually to rejoin his family, which he never really does, but regardless…
Alison: [sings] Because Ron and Percy are really similar.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: Yeah, I mean, their connections are uncanny. He grew up… I feel like he was trying to help raise his brothers, and it was almost in reaction to the fact that the twins were so out of control that he loves this sort of order, and he’s constantly berated by his family – more so by the twins than anyone else, and everyone else just sort of has an eye-rolling reaction. But he’s constantly berated for being himself and enjoying that order that he likes to sort of impose in the later books. But I feel like within the Ministry, he finds a purpose, and it’s because he idolizes his father that he starts to idolize the Ministry in general because this man [whom] he sees as someone who[m] he can grow up […] to be, who works for the Ministry, it’s sort of cut down once he actually gets there and learns how dishonored his father is. And when Arthur just refuses to try to even change that fact, I can see him becoming more and more disillusioned with this. So when someone does finally offer him power, even if it is to control him, he sees it as himself rising through the ranks and being discovered, and it was earlier on… I forget which book it was, but he was reading something that…it was, like, Prefects Who…
Alison: Book 2.
Grace: … Gained Power, something of that nature.
Alison: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s in Chamber of Secrets.
Grace: Very Tom Riddle-esque. I was expecting him to become a Death Eater by the end of the series. I’m going to be entirely honest. And I love this character in that I’m very torn in between… he’s very loyal to his family, and he sees through his mistakes before the end, and perhaps a little bit too late, but he still manages to get back to them. And he doesn’t die, which is very strange for my favorite characters.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: But I feel like, really, his intentions were good. He was just very, very mislead and he was very lied to, and he was pompous about it. He goes through that sort of downfall of hubris because he thinks he’s so sure he has this right path, and he wants everyone to follow this right path because the Ministry says it’s right, everyone else says it right, and everyone is confirming that this power that has discovered him is the right kind of power – except for his family, [whom] he should’ve trusted because they have his best interest in mind.
Alison: I’m so glad you’re defending Percy because I love him as a character as well, and I…
Michael: Yeah, me too.
Grace: Yeah! Air high five.
Alison: Yes, high five. I think his redemption story is probably one of my favorite subplots throughout the whole thing…
Grace: It’s beautiful.
Alison: … because… I don’t know. I just see where he’s coming from. He wants better for himself, he wants better for his family, and so he goes out there. He tries to find his dream, which is to work in the government and to do these things that he’s trying to do, and he just keeps getting knocked down and knocked down, and I agree that he’s very misled, but then when he does come back… and I actually think at this point, he knows he’s wrong, and he would like to come back, but he doesn’t know how to get himself back, especially at this point.
Grace: Yeah, and he’s really intimidated. And also, I see him as being a supremely intelligent individual…
Alison: Oh, yes. Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Grace: … but being extremely stupid because of that.
Alison: [laughs] Yeah, I…
Michael: I actually like this defense of Percy too because I also like Percy as a character. I think he has some of the funniest lines in his appearances when he does speak because he just says such ridiculous things, but I think… I don’t know if I’d say Percy is ready to come back yet. I think if he is, it’s not so much that he doesn’t know how. It’s that he’s really stubbornly prideful at this point, and that’s a lot to admit.
Grace: Yeah, he’s being stupid.
Michael: Yeah, he’s being stupid at this point, I think.
Alison: Well, he gets attacked by the twins when does come home for this reason.
Grace: That is very true.
Alison: I mean, I can see him being not scared, but just hesitant of what his reception would be if he did come back.
Grace: And I’m going to be a really hated figure for saying this, but I prefer… okay, I prefer the twins’ humor, but as characters, I prefer Percy over the twins because I feel like the twins are very grating, and they cut you down a bit too much. They cross that line that you really didn’t need… and Ron just gets bullied all the time by these guys. I feel so bad hearing this crap that they’re telling him almost 24/7 when he tries at something. No wonder he’s so scared to try new things.
Michael: It’s funny that you say that, Grace, because I was going to say something similar, which was that I think the reason that Percy gets so much bile and hatred from the fandom is because Fred basically dies in his place.
Alison: lot of people wanted Percy to die instead, and Fred is the one who dies. And so I think that’s where Percy gets all the hate from, which is, to me, I think, disappointing because – again, we were talking about really great character arcs – Percy has a really good character arc, a very well-developed, well-written one. And so it’s a shame that that does, I think, severely underappreciated by a lot of the fandom because they’re just more upset that Fred is dead.
Grace: And looking at it from the point of view of Fred, if Fred had lived, I’m not saying that he deserved to die, but I feel like throughout these books, Fred becomes continually more sharp and angry.
Alison: But Fred is also the first one to welcome Percy back.
Grace: His flavor of comedy becomes very mean very quickly. As opposed to George, who actually seems to be a bit more docile […] compared to Fred.
Alison: But you also have to remember that Fred is the first one to welcome back, so that almost make’s Fred’s death even worse because here he is. He’s the first one to welcome this prodigal son back to the family, and I mean, his last words are… he’s talking about Percy joking, and then he’s gone.
Grace: Oh, that does hurt. Oh my God.
Alison: And it’s just like, from Percy’s perspective, that would be horrendous. From everyone else[‘s], it’s awful. But it’s also nice, I think, because I feel like George, especially, then, would grow closer to Percy in that way and start seeing things from his perspective a little bit more, and that would…
Grace: And maybe there was more of a connection between them than we thought. Maybe the reason why Fred was getting so bitter was because they did lose Percy, and was Percy was involved in sort of trying to shape them into something that wasn’t so insane.
Alison: Oh, I can definitely see it. Yeah.
Michael: But along with Percy, Scrimgeour is there, and he is an absolutely fascinating character to talk about, and actually, Grace, it looks like one of your points actually bleeds with mine because what I wanted to bring up… what this whole segment actually made me… I couldn’t believe it made me think of this. I was like, “Are you serious, brain? This is what you associate it with now?” This made me immediately jump to Mockingjay.
Alison: Oh, but I’m glad you brought this up.
Michael: When I was reading the conversation between Harry and Scrimgeour… because essentially, Scrimgeour is like, “You want to be the Mockingjay?”
[Alison, Grace, and Michael laugh]
Grace: “Hey, Harry…”
Michael: “It’s so tempting, isn’t it?” And Harry is like, [as Harry] “Actually, no. It’s not tempting at all.”
[Grace laughs]
Michael: Isn’t it…? There'[re] so many interesting layers to that. I have a lot of questions, and again, one of Grace’s points blends in really well, which is that… I think a big one that is worthy of discussion is “Are Scrimgeour’s ideals justified? Is what he’s doing here wrong? Is it the wrong move, actually, do what the Ministry is trying to do?”
Micah: It’s desperate.
Alison: Yeah, I definitely think it is.
Michael: It is. It very much is. But I can see… I guess the… because my additional question with this that I think ties into this is “Did Harry sacrifice a bargaining chip here?”
Alison: I don’t think so, and I’m actually really, really, really happy. This is why I prefer Harry to Katniss. Because Harry decides he’s going to take control of what he’s going to do, and he’s not going to rely on these people who have let him down so much. I mean, Umbridge is still at the Ministry. Fudge is still running around. There'[re] all these people who, when he needed them, they let him down. He’s not going to go in and throw himself under the bus for them. And I think this is why I like Harry better than Katniss… well, several reasons.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: But I like these characters because he… and I’m definitely going to get hate for this. I just thought of that.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: I can already feel it.
Alison: Because Katniss just lets herself be used, whereas Harry is like, “No, I want to make a change. I’m going to go out there and fight for the change I want to make.”
Grace: I feel like Rufus is not in the wrong in the slightest for asking Harry to become this figurehead, just because it is a desperate plea, but at the same time, it’s a very logical one, and this man is also a man of battles and war. He’s thinking of things in terms of tactics, which is why I think that actually blends a little bit into why Stan Shunpike is still being held by the Ministry. I don’t know if it’s all entirely a ploy in that I think that Rufus Scrimgeour is just a take-no-bullcrap kind of man. “If this kid is joking around about being part of the Death Eaters, we’re keeping him here. We made mistakes before. We’re not making them again. Any sort of red light here, we’re just going to keep. Any sort of warning.”
Michael: Yeah, no, the little historic… because I don’t… sadly, we don’t have a Brit on the show to be more informative of British history, but I guess, just hearing what you’re saying, Grace, and not because he necessarily did this this way, but it makes me think of Churchill. Churchill was very good at rallying support by not only the way he spoke, but he was very on tactical on upping morale [as well] when there was no morale to be had. So there’s definitely an element of that there to me. I also noted that, just as a reminder for the listeners, Half-Blood Prince did come out in the mid-2000s, and again, as we’ve talked about before on this show, this was post-9/11, and while I think we, the American readers, tend to center a lot on how American politics are reflected in Harry Potter, I think there’s a valid reason for that because what happened after 9/11 affected the whole world and a lot of policies around the world, not just in the US.
Grace: Mhm.
Alison: Well, and a lot of terrorist attacks have taken place in the UK in the past decade or so as well…
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.
Alison: … so it’s also completely justified in this case, too. It’s completely connected to them as well.
Grace: I feel like Harry’s entire idea of the Ministry and how it should be working… I hate to say it, but it’s a bit idealized. I know that Umbridge really sucks, and she should not be around there at all…
Michael: Yeah, I’m surprised she is still there.
Alison: Yeah.
Grace: … but there has got to be more involved than just nixing her. There is a lot of behind-the-scenes politics as to why she is still there, as well as why Fudge is still running around as well.
Michael: Yeah. That’s true.
Grace: He can’t completely abandon the other side of his battle group just because there [are] a few things that are wrong with it.
Michael: Well, I think that’s a good explanation, actually, for why Umbridge is there because I would have thought… especially because Scrimgeour seems to be completely informed on what Umbridge did, from what he is saying. And I’m surprised that to get Harry on his side… since he is so desperate to have Harry on his side, I’m surprised he kept Umbridge in the Ministry because that’s where he loses Harry completely.
Alison: I’m surprised he brought her up.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Yeah! Bad move.
Grace: Bad tactics, man.
Michael: It is also worth noting that Harry does have some very impressive sparring word skills here with Scrimgeour. I think more than ever in the series, Harry is being a very acute listener.
Alison: Mm, the silence.
Michael: Well, I guess this made me think of the beginning of Order of the Phoenix when Hermione was the only one listening to Umbridge’s speech, and then later on Harry half-heartedly repeats what Hermione told him to McGonagall, and McGonagall says, “Well, it’s good that you listen to Hermione Granger.”
[Alison and Grace laugh]
Michael: And I think this is a moment where Harry is finally getting that he has to start doing that because he does it really well.
Alison: Well, it reminds me a lot of Dumbledore’s tactic in a lot of things.
Michael: Hmm. Yeah, that’s true.
Grace: Yeah!
Alison: That he is going to sit. And I thought that was fascinating, that, especially at this part where he makes the point… he says definitively, “I am Dumbledore’s man through and through.” He acts so much like him in his not giving things away and the way he twists the conversation and keeping silent instead of responding to things.
Grace: Manipulation. I love it.
Michael: Mhm. Yeah. So it’s a really great little sparring of the minds between Harry and Scrimgeour that does conclude the chapter, but before I end the discussion, and I know this is going to be a major controversy that I’m putting it here…
Alison: Yes. [laughs]
Michael: … but I want to put it here because I know we’ll focus on it during the movie discussion, but we have so many other points to hit during the movie discussion. We’ve got to discuss it here.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: The movie does this chapter in full, sans Scrimgeour. But it is quite possibly the most controversial as well as despised scene that the movies have ever done.
Alison: Blah!
Michael: Of course, I am referring to the fact that they do go through the motions of the Christmas bit through Christmas Eve, but instead of going to Christmas Day, they linger on Christmas Eve and the Burrow gets caught on fire and is attacked by Death Eaters. Why…? Why.
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: What.
Alison: That’s all you should say: “Why.”
Michael: I mean, what are you guys’ opinions on it? Because interestingly, I do think this is the most despised scene in the fandom ever.
Grace: Yeah, where does this come from?
Alison: Everyone else go first; I can go for three hours.
Michael: [laughs] You go first, Grace. You’re the guest.
Grace: Well, I mean… seriously. I love seeing the Volde-girlfriend as much as anyone else, okay?
[Michael laughs]
Grace: She’s a hottie-tottie. It’s great. But we didn’t need to see her in this scene. They didn’t need to attack. No one needed that.
Micah: Not on Christmas.
Michael: On Christmas!
Grace: How would they even have found it? And even if they did, what’s the point? It goes against even the bad guys. But sorry; what’s up?
Michael: [laughs] Micah? What are your thoughts, Micah?
Micah: Just not on Christmas. They could have done it any day.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Insensitive. [laughs]
Micah: No, I think we… if I think back to, let’s say, the beginning of Half-Blood Prince, right? We have the bridge scene. It reminded me a lot of that because it stayed consistent throughout the movie with those types of moments. You mentioned this idea of the terrorism/paranoia years post-9/11. I think a lot of that translated into this book and into this film.
Michael: Yes.
Micah: And I think you get that sheer sense of terror when you see the bridge collapsing. You get that sense of terror when you know that the Burrow is vulnerable. And I think that if you’re arguing for the case of why it worked, that’s why it worked. And it just went to show you that nothing was off limits, that terror was starting to really take hold, Voldemort was getting stronger, and a lot of the things that we had seen – not we, but the world had seen – when he had first come to power was starting to come back again.
Grace: Mm. Good point.
Michael: Yeah.
Micah: That would be my argument in favor of it.
Michael: Yeah, no, actually, that is along the lines of what I was going to say about it because I am probably the only person in the world who does not wholly despise that scene the way most fans do. At least, I haven’t found anybody who relates to my feelings on the scene, until you just spoke, Micah. We should talk more. [laughs]
Micah: No, well, I will just say, too, because I think everybody likes the Weasley family as a whole, as a unit…
Michael: Yes.
Micah: … and the Burrow represented something obviously very meaningful to them but also to Harry. And in a way, it was a place that he really grew up throughout the books; he spent summers there. It probably didn’t get as much screen time as it could have in the movies, but to take something so symbolic to the readers, to the people watching the movie, to Harry, to the family of the Weasleys, I think to see it just go up in flames resonated pretty strongly.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: Mhm. That is a really good point.
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: Well, because I always… and I think, actually, I like your interpretation better, Micah, than my usual argument because that’s almost purely filmic interpretation; there’s no… it’s not an adaptation issue; it’s an issue of the film and purely the context of film-making. Because what I always… when you brought up the thing about the terrorism, I think that’s exactly on point because… a little film history for all of you listeners: The Transformers movie came out two years before Half-Blood Prince and Transformers was one of the big movies… Transformers and Cloverfield, they’re two of the movies that changed the field of cinema in a big way in that they actually import imagery from 9/11 into their movies. If you haven’t realized that before, go watch those movies now and you will be horrified. But Harry Potter – not in as much of an extreme way – does take that new vision for film, for disaster moments. The bridge collapse doesn’t even… it’s not something that’s shown in the book, and I know David Heyman and David Yates were both very excited to put that scene in. They thought that that could resonate really well with the audience and set up the tension of the film. I think, though, what I usually argue from an adaptation issue is that what we’re missing from the movie that wouldn’t make sense…
Alison: Exactly.
Michael: … is that Harry hears about what’s going on in the outside world from his friends, and from people getting killed, classmates he knows whose parents or relatives die. That doesn’t happen in the movie, and if it happened in the movie, nobody would care because you don’t know who those characters are. So to replace that, you’re targeting the Weasley family because that’s a family that’s familiar, and like you said, Micah, nothing is off limits, so it makes the wizarding world have a little more risk.
Grace: You guys are good.
Michael: Now, I’m not saying the scene is well-acted on Bonnie Wright’s part…
Alison: Oh, gosh, no!
[Michael laughs]
Grace: Ooh.
Alison: I forgot about that whole part.
Michael: I love you, Bonnie Wright, but the tying of the shoe thing…
Alison: [laughs] So weird!
Michael: … what were you both thinking? [laughs] That was horrible.
Alison: “Open up, you.” That’s the other bad one.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: Oh, God.
Michael: And I was disappointed, too, because Lupin is very short-handed rather than… he has the exact same lines of dialogue but he’s angry. Because the movies loved making people angry!
[Alison and Grace laugh]
Michael: So Lupin has an angry moment that doesn’t really make sense. And they also pass off his werewolf stuff with a time of the month joke, which I thought was in pretty bad taste. [laughs]
Alison: Yeah.
Grace: That is really dumb.
Alison: Ugh.
Michael: I guess in theory the scene works but it doesn’t play out very well in execution perhaps.
Grace: Hmm.
Michael: So it also doesn’t make sense for Deathly Hallows – Part 1.
Alison: No, it’s awful.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: I am trying to keep myself calm because talking about this scene is probably one of the guaranteed ways to get me really riled up. [laughs]
Michael: I know, Alison. You are one of the ones who this is your least favorite, right?
Alison: I nearly screamed out loud in the theatre because I was so angry.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: And I cannot even watch this scene in the movie to this day because it just makes me hideously angry…
Michael: Oh, wow.
Grace: Wow.
Alison: … because first of all, it makes no sense. It comes out of nowhere. Like Grace said, there’s no way for them to have found the Burrow.
Grace and Michael: Mhm.
Alison: And then it just… in addition, the fact that it’s such a long scene and it’s not in the book and I feel like it does nothing for the rest of it; I feel like we definitely could have gotten the tension that they needed of the outside world in other ways. And that this totally invented scene is in the movie, when they cut out everything important; they cut out all but two of the memories, they cut out all of these other important things that help further not just the plot of this – of Half-Blood Prince – but of the entire arc of the series, it just… ugh. It just makes me so angry that they just decided to throw that in there.
Grace and Micah: Yeah.
Alison: But I do see where you guys are coming from, though, with why, but it still just makes me so angry that it’s even there when so much more important information could have been put in instead and they decided to cut it.
Grace: Yeah.
Micah: I would just add, though, that it’s not necessarily to show the tension from the outside world; I think that’s what they were doing with the opening scenes.
Alison: Mhm.
Micah: I think here it was to show that it can cross into both worlds.
Michael: Hmm.
Micah: It’s not… the danger exists and is prevalent in both worlds.
Alison: But I feel like we’ve already got that. We got that in Goblet of Fire, we got that in Order of the Phoenix, and we are going to get it in Deathly Hallows. So I just feel like it wasn’t necessary here necessarily.
Michael: I do because… the reason I do, and I would argue that, is because unlike the books, and this is just a weird thing with books and movies, but… and I think I’ve just found this, not only with my own viewing experience but with a lot of people who I have talked to about the Harry Potter series… the clues that are embedded so early on in the series in the movies don’t really work because the movies were so spaced far apart and people weren’t as obsessed, I think, in the same way as the movie canon, so it’s like… if you’re reminded of information from Sorcerer’s Stone or Chamber all the way in Half-Blood, you’re like, “Oh, yeah.” Whereas in the books, for some reason that I can’t quite understand, you’re like, “Oh, yeah! That’s so clever! Oh my God! That connection is amazing!” But when you see it in the movies, you’re like, “Uh-huh.”
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: And I think there’s… I mean, there [are] multiple elements that I guess I could attribute to that. I think a big part of it is different directors.
Alison and Grace: Yeah.
Michael: And what information is left in and left out because there is so much integral world-building that’s left in and out that doesn’t make that kind of information shocking or continuous.
Grace: Yeah. And also, what surprised me… I think what got me most against this scene is the fact that – coming from the perspective of I’m almost always thinking of all the baddies and what they should be doing at this point – if Voldemort knew about where the Burrow was, he wouldn’t have taken this opportunity to attack. Even if he did, he would keep that for later when it would be most poignant to be attacking them and to make an example of this family. He wouldn’t want to burn down their house when no one could see it.
Alison: Yeah.
Grace: He would want to make an example of the entirety of them and make them suffer for what they had done in not siding with him.
Michael: I would say that’s where the scene falls apart the most. There’s no logic to Voldemort’s attack.
Alison and Grace: Yeah.
Grace: I know. There’s absolutely no logic. It’s like they’re just passing through.
Alison: And Bellatrix wouldn’t do something like that unless Voldemort told her to.
Michael: No.
Grace and Michael: Yeah.
Michael: That, I think, is developed well enough in the film canon. That’s why within the films it doesn’t even make sense.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: I can see that, absolutely. I think, though, I do think the scene is there as far as that kind of reminding of how these two opposing sides clash because there really isn’t a lot of that in Half-Blood, especially for the length of the movie because most of it is the romance, and most of the book is that.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: I think Half-Blood Prince… I’m amazed they adapted it as well as they did because I’d say out of all of the books, Half-Blood Prince is the least adaptation-friendly. It’s not really made to be a movie because while it’s very humorous and enjoyable, it’s slow and plodding as far as plot developments go. So I think that’s where the challenge was, but the debate will of course continue on with this scene forever.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: Yeah, no.
Michael: This scene I don’t think will ever be settled by the fandom, but listeners, please leave your comments both on this scene and everything else we’ve discussed. You can do that at alohomora.mugglenet.com with your thoughts on this week’s episode because that is where Chapter 16, “A Very Frosty Christmas,” concludes.
Alison: All right. And now, as we always do at the end of a chapter, it’s time for our Podcast Question of the Week. So this week we’re going to talk a little bit more about Scrimgeour because we didn’t quite get to discuss him as much. So the question is,
“Given the circumstances that are surrounding the wizarding world at the moment, is Rufus Scrimgeour doing a good job as Minister for Magic? When he approaches Harry, is he really trying to do the right thing for morale? In comparison to previous Ministers we learned about on Pottermore, will he be remembered as a good Minister?”
So head on over to alohomora.mugglenet.com and let us know what you think.
Michael: And listeners, if you need that information on previous Ministers, it’s on Pottermore.com. Rowling created a log of pretty much every Minister in existence, [laughs] so you have plenty to compare to. So have at it.
Grace: Just a big old Minister party.
Michael: Yep.
Micah: Grace, thanks so much for joining us. You had some really awesome points for discussion.
Grace: Thank you. I had a blast; I always do. You guys are the best.
Michael: We were so glad to have you back; we know you were really enthusiastic to come back, and we’re glad this worked out because Half-Blood Prince is a high-demand book for people to be on Alohomora! [laughs]
Grace: Oh, yeah.
Michael: So we were very glad we could have you back for it.
Grace: And I just want to let everyone know – all of the listeners – all of these guys who are hosting, they’re super nice on-air and off. They’re wonderful, genuine people.
Michael: Aww.
Alison: Oh, thanks.
Michael: She’s just saying that because we’re super important celebrities.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Grace: They are. You are very much celebrities to me. [laughs]
Michael: No, no. But that’s very sweet. Thank you, Grace. And we’re glad…
Micah: And she’s just really talking about Michael and Alison.
[Alison, Grace, and Michael laugh]
Michael: Yeah, she’s definitely not talking about this clueless guy we invited.
Alison: And she’s just talking about Michael really, so…
Michael: [laughs] This guy here…
Grace: You guys are crazy. I’m talking about everybody that’s on this podcast.
Michael: Aww.
Grace: Including previous guest hosts, which are all really cool people. At least they sound like it.
Michael: Yes, we do have some fairly awesome guests, and if you listeners would like to join the pantheon of awesome Alohomora! guests, you can be on the show, too, just like Grace. It’s really not that hard; all you have to do is first of all, go to alohomora.mugglenet.com and check out our “Be on the Show” page. If you have some headphones with a built-in mic, or if you have a microphone of your own that’s separate from that, then you’re pretty much all set to be on the show with us. We really don’t require any fancy equipment. And really, we do stress, if you’re nervous, get over it if you want to be on the show because we are already past the halfway point of Half-Blood Prince; we don’t have that much more left.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: So conquer those nerves, find your inner Gryffindor, and submit to be on the show. And by the way, while you’re at the main site, feel free to download a ringtone while you’re there; they’re free.
Micah: All right. Well, there are a number of ways that you can get in touch with the show. You can tweet at @AlohomoraMN. A lot of good insights, I’m sure, people have from the discussion today, contributions they want to make. So that’s one way they can get in touch with the show. They can also check us out on facebook.com/openthedumbledore. It’s an interesting Facebook page.
Michael: [laughs] That’s our slogan: “Open the Dumbledore.”
Micah: Yeah. That sounds like a Noah-ism.
Alison: [laughs] Probably.
Michael: I’m sure it is. I’m sure it probably was. He did create the show, so I’m pretty sure that’s his.
Micah: Also check out mnalohomorapodcast on Tumblr. You can also call into the show and leave a voicemail at 206-GO-ALBUS. That’s 206-462-5287. And you can also leave an audioBoom, which I really enjoyed for the first time earlier on in this episode, at alohomora.mugglenet.com.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Micah: It is free, you just need a microphone, so there’s no reason why there’s not going to be at least five to ten audioBooms next episode.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Micah: I look forward to listening to all of them. And tell them that I recommended that you do it. Please, though, keep them under 60 seconds. Yeah, so those are the multitude of different ways that you can get in touch with the show.
Michael: I hope we have dozens and dozens of 60-second audioBooms of people just telling Micah how wonderful he is.
[Alison and Grace laugh]
Michael: Do it, listeners!
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: I want to hear it.
Alison: And while you’re over at our website, make sure to check out our store where we’ve got all sorts of things: House shirts, flip-flops – it’s flip-flop season – as well as different things with our inside jokes, like the Desk!Pig, Mandrake Liberation Front, Minerva is my homegirl, and so many more.
Michael: In addition to listening to the show, we have lots of additional content on our smartphone app, which is available all over the Muggle world! And if you can’t get it, you must be magical, because that’s the only way you could be breaking your phone so it can’t download our app. Prices vary depending on your location. The app includes transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and more. I actually have the app content this week, and hopefully for once I will actually get it edited and out to you, listeners. [laughs] You’ll know if I don’t! But yes, with that we conclude our very frosty, Christmas-not-on-Christmas – Christmas in April – episode of Alohomora!
[Show music begins]
Michael: I’m Michael Harle.
Micah: I’m Micah Tannenbaum.
Alison: And I’m Alison Siggard. Thank you for listening to Episode 134 of Alohomora!
Micah: Open the Dumbledore.
[Show music continues]
Alison: Okay, sorry. Before I move on, I’m going to shift positions and it’s going to make some noise. Just FYI.
[“Irreplaceable” by Beyoncé plays]
Michael: [sings along with the music] “To the left, to the left.”
[Alison laughs]
[Sound of Alison moving]
Michael: [sings] “Everything you own in the box to the left.”
[Sound of Alison moving]
Michael: [sings in falsetto] “To the left, to the left.”
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Are you actually moving to the left?
Alison: Actually, yes.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: So that worked quite well.
