Transcript – Episode 70
[Show music begins]
Michael Harle: This is Episode 70 of Alohomora! for February 15, 2014.
[Show music continues]
Michael: Hello listeners, and welcome to the show. I’m Michael Harle.
Rosie Morris: I’m Rosie Morris.
Noah Fried: And I’m Noah Fried. And I would like to introduce our special guest, Jennifer Silvers, who is the wife of one of my co-workers…
[Jennifer laughs]
Noah: … at the business where I work for, the app, Born Digital. I think there was actually a little ad for Born Digital on one of the previous episodes.
Michael: Yes, there was.
Jennifer: Oh, very nice.
Noah: But Jennifer is a… she’s a specialist in children’s psychology, I believe? Is that right, Jen?
Jennifer: Yeah. I’m a developmental neuroscientist. So I study brain development in children and adolescents.
Michael: Oh, wow.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: That’s… [laughs] Wow. I suddenly feel not smart enough to be here. [laughs]
Jennifer: [laughs] Listening to this show, I have to say, you all just blow my mind with your memory for these books and your ability to cross time and characters so fluidly that I feel quite inferior myself. Do not fear. [laughs]
Noah: No.
Michael: Okay. Good. Well…
Rosie: Oh, we get it wrong all the time. It’s okay.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, we do. [laughs]
Jennifer: Well, you sound confident, so that’s what matters.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: What’s your background with Harry Potter, Jennifer? What house are you in? When did you start reading? All that stuff?
Jennifer: So I am a Ravenclaw. Perhaps not surprising for a scientist that I have an endless thirst for knowledge.
Noah: Great.
Michael: Perfect.
Jennifer: And I started reading Harry Potter when I was in college, so probably later than a lot of the listeners, but I’ve just always really been captivated by the books and it’s fun getting to go back and reread now from this after having some scientific training in the exact ages of these characters that gives me a different perspective that’s a lot of fun to apply.
Rosie: Brilliant.
Michael: Oh, fantastic.
Noah: Well, thanks for coming on, Jen, because we were discussing before, this chapter, more than many others, is rife with psychological tensions…
Jennifer: Mhm.
Noah: … just given what Harry has to go through and what he sees.
Jennifer: Definitely. Definitely.
Rosie: Real coming of age chapter.
Michael: Yeah.
Jennifer: Agreed.
Michael: So it’s good to have a Ravenclaw here because we are overwhelmed with Hufflepuffs today.
[Jennifer laughs]
Noah: That is true.
Michael: So… [laughs]
Rosie: But for good reason.
[Jennifer and Michael laughs]
Jennifer: Lovely house.
Noah: Oh yeah, it’s a morning.
Rosie: If there was any chapter that needed Hufflepuffs, this would be the one that it was.
Jennifer: Yes! Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, we’ll try and keep you all as uplifted as we can throughout the discussion.
Rosie: Yeah.[laughs]
Michael: And to remind you all listening, today’s chapter discussion is on Chapter 32, “Flesh, Blood, and Bones.” So make sure to read that before you listen to the episode so that you can enjoy the full experience of Alohomora! here on Episode 70. Woo! We made it to 70 episodes. Woo!
[Rosie laughs]
Noah: That’s a lot of episodes.
Michael: That is a lot of episodes.
Rosie: It is a lot of episodes. But before we get on to Chapter 32, we have to do what we always do and go back to last week’s discussion for Chapter 31. So back on Episode 69 we were talking about lots of interesting things as we were going through the Third Task, and you guys had some brilliant discussions on the site, as always. There’s lots of great discussion on the differences in the movie maze scene, which is obviously very, very different from the Third Task within the book.
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: But we will come back to all of those in a few weeks time when we do our movie watch. So make sure you send them in then and we’ll try and include as many as possible because yeah, there’s lots and lots of differences, obviously, between book and film for this one and the maze is one of those major changes.
Noah: Indeed.
Rosie: However…
Michael: I have to bite my tongue off not to say anything about that right now.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: I’ll save it. I’ll save it.
Jennifer: Save it.
Michael: Oh God.
[Rosie laughs]
Jennifer: Put it in the Pensieve.
Rosie: Exactly. And that’s a good link.
[Jennifer laughs]
Michael: There you go. Yeah.
Rosie: Take that out of your head and put it in a Pensieve, and just like…
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: … AccioPotassium! said,
“I would have to agree with the idea of the Pensieve being potentially damaging to a mind, especially with Severus Snape.”
So yeah, maybe it’s not a good idea to use a Pensieve.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Rosie: [continues]
“He would [have] spent many years in the Pensieve, almost trapped in his memories of Lily Evans, and while increasing his hatred for the Marauders. The Pensieve, Boggarts, and the Mirror of Erised are very similar. All three have the ability to make a person stronger and better understand oneself; however, they could become a self inducing Dementor and destroy their minds in the process.”
What a perfect comment to have with a neuroscientist type person on the show.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Jennifer: Yeah, I have to say, when I was thinking about the Pensieve in rereading these chapters, I kept thinking a lot about in the psychological literature how there are these thoughts about looking back on our memories and what’s the right way to do it.
Michael: Mmm.
Jennifer: And the truth is it can be really adaptive to look back on our memories and it can also be really maladaptive and it’s all about how you do it, which I think is said really nicely here. Just that you can use your memories if you look at them objectively and analytically as a way to inform you about your behavior and to guide you to do better things in the future, but it can also just lead you to sit there ruminating and hating yourself and that’s not, obviously, very helpful. So I think this is a great point that the Pensieve can be used for good or for bad purposes.
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: Great. There were actually several other comments, especially in regard to Dumbledore and whether he could look at a Pensieve memory to find out who actually was to blame…
Jennifer: Mhm.
Rosie: … for the death of Ariana. So that would be a perfect example of Dumbledore choosing to use a Pensieve to better himself rather than to dwell on the bad situation and find the truth, which isn’t necessarily important. I mean, no understanding of the truth is going to actually bring Ariana back.
Jennifer: Right.
Michael: Mhm.
Rosie: So yeah, that’s a great point and again, thank you guys so much for putting up these amazing theories and amazing comments on our site.
Michael: Yeah. And thank you, too. I saw on the forums a lot of you guys really did your research on trying to figure out how exactly the Pensieve works as far as how it materializes a memory because we had a long discussion about that last week because we weren’t sure why a Pensieve memory can actually build up an entire environment around you including things that you may not necessarily have remembered, but…
Noah: Right, but it can. It can. We saw that quote from Rowling.
Michael: Yeah, it can do that, so… somebody found the quote from Jo that…
Jennifer: Mhm.
Michael: … there’s the… and they mentioned the point in Order of the Phoenix when Harry goes into Snape’s memory and he actually hears a conversation that the Marauders have that Snape could not have possibly heard from where he was standing.
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: So there was confirmation on that.
Noah: So doesn’t that prove then, that if Dumbledore had gone into his memory, he could have figured out who killed Ariana – Aberforth, or himself, or Grindelwald?
Jennifer: Mhm.
Rosie: Yeah, that’s what we were just saying.
Michael: Yeah, pretty much.
Rosie: He could have done it.
Jennifer: It is reality.
Michael: But it doesn’t…
Rosie: But it’s whether there was any benefit to actually discovering that or not…
Noah: Right.
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: … is the issue.
Jennifer: So that’s again, I think, why it has to be used so judiciously, to think about whether this is actually going to be something that will yield productive outcomes for you to go back and look at these memories.
Michael: Yeah, I like that AccioPotassium! mentioned too the Boggarts and especially the Mirror of Erised because the Mirror is the first object we get like that…
Jennifer: Mhm.
Michael: … that’s a warning of not necessarily – sometimes it can be memories, in Harry’s case it is – but of desires and the things that you want are not necessarily the things that you need in your life.
Jennifer: Right.
Michael: And how memories can affect that, so yeah.
Noah: It’s so great, the Pensieve. It’s like the Holodeck in Star Trek: the Next Generation…
[Jennifer laughs]
Noah: … which I’ve been getting into a lot.
Michael: Yeah, it is like the holodeck.
Noah: But everybody on the Enterprise uses the holodeck to help situations too, but there’s one character who overindulges and I’m seeing a lot in these Science Fiction and Fantasy novels or series this magical dimension where you can indulge yourself and make things happen, but it’s almost cursed in a way or you have to be careful.
Michael: Yeah, I think we’re always… I think more and more in the series as you go on, you’re really… you really see that magic actually is more of a hindrance than it is a help…
Noah: Huh.
Michael: … depending on how you… especially if you… just the deeper more complicated magic. Like the everyday things like Scouring Charms and stuff isn’t going to hurt.
[Jennifer and Rosie laugh]
Michael: But when you get in to the really indulgent magic, which…
Rosie: Great power comes with great responsibility.
Michael: Ah.
Jennifer: Well, and it fits with the ages too of the kids at this point, right?
Michael: Mhm.
Jennifer: That they’re approaching adulthood, they’re around 14 right at this age and with that comes greater self-awareness, but that can also bring about, again, bigger responsibilities.
Rosie: Mhm.
Michael: Definitely.
Jennifer: And so, I think that goes… the magic is escalating it in its nuance as they are.
Michael: Mhm.
Rosie: It’s quite interesting in the order that they’re introduced as well. You’re first introduced to desire, then fear, then memory.
Jennifer: Uh-huh. [laughs]
Michael: Mhm.
Jennifer: Yeah, that’s true.
Rosie: So much interesting things you could say!
[Jennifer, Michael, and Rosie laugh]
Noah: Yes.
Rosie: And do! Go on to our forums and discuss all of this because it’s brilliant!
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Rosie: Okay. [laughs] Moving on a little bit. On our forums, we have a comment from Phoenix and it says,
“I find Noah s question – whether Percy would have kept quiet even if he had started to suspect something was wrong with his boss out of loyalty – very interesting. In Percy’s defence, though, I don’t think there is much of a reason to be suspicious from his point of view, because isn’t it confirmed later that Mr. Crouch’s letters were genuinely written by him? Doesn’t Little Crouch use the Imperius Curse to make him write those instructions to the ministry (among other things)? In that case, I think that Percy shouldn’t be judged too harshly for being fooled, since everyone would have been, receiving a note in Crouch’s own handwriting.”
Noah: I’m not actually sure if this was my question, to start. I think this might have been Kat’s.
Rosie: Just to put that disclaimer out there.
Michael: Yeah.
[Jennifer, Michael, and Rosie laugh]
Noah: But I’ll still answer it, though.
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: Go ahead.
Noah: I think Percy, just in love with this position, it’s very possible that he would think himself of higher esteem to be getting these notes and therefore, not say anything. So I wouldn’t put it past him, basically, to do that, you know what I mean?
Rosie: Yeah, to feel that sense of pride that he’s the one that’s being asked and therefore, not question it because he thinks…
Michael: Mhm.
Noah: Yeah, hence why some have said Percy is a Slytherin or some to that effect, not to say all Slytherins are one way, but he is different from the other Weasleys.
Rosie: I think for him, pride becomes a sin more than it becomes a good quality.
Noah: Right.
Michael: Mhm.
Rosie: Whereas… because I mean, when we think of Gryffindors, we think of them as bravery and proud and all of that lion stuff and Percy just takes that little bit too far.
Jennifer: To be fair though, I think even if he had had some suspicions, it’s pretty rare at this point in time – they believe at least, right? – that the Imperius Curse would be used.
Rosie: Yeah, true.
Jennifer: And so, it’d be pretty challenging for him having no real proof, at least. Who would he go to? Who would believe him? I mean, I doubt that Fudge would believe him to try and say that he suspected something like this was going on.
Rosie: And he’s just a secretary type person!
Jennifer: Right! [laughs]
Rosie: He’s not like an Auror.
Jennifer: Exactly.
Rosie: He’s not trained to be looking for these kind of things.
Michael: Yeah.
Jennifer: He’s pretty low on the totem pole, relatively speaking.
Rosie: Yeah. Okay.
Michael: You… that’s tough just because that’s true that it’s hard to point the finger at Percy, but of course too, there is the fact that Harry, Ron, and Hermione caught on to it from Sirius and asked Percy about it and he was like, “Don’t you dare question Mr. Crouch!”
[Jennifer laughs]
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: [laughs] So there’s also that because…
Jennifer: But he also has more to lose than they do. I mean, they can have that questioning privately at Hogwarts and it won’t really impact them.
Michael: Mhm.
Jennifer: Whereas, if he has that questioning and is wrong, he has a lot more to lose. I mean, I’m not terribly in to Percy…
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Jennifer: … but I just like playing devil’s advocate for the heck of it.
Michael: Yeah, no. It’s a tough situation that Percy’s put in in this case. I know everybody seeks out reasons to be angry at Percy.
[Jennifer and Rosie laugh]
Michael: So… and the thing is… the funny thing is working on the WizOlympics this week, Percy’s going to make an appearance soon and he is… I have to say, writing Percy at any point is always fun because he just says the funniest things.
[Jennifer laughs]
Michael: The most obnoxious things. I do have a begrudging affection for Percy, so…
Rosie: I think Jo probably does, too.
Michael: Yeah!
Rosie: She made him annoying because it was fun to make him that annoying.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, no. Well and I like too that you guys mentioned, Rosie, the idea that a Gryffindor’s pride can actually be a negative thing.
Rosie: Yeah.
Jennifer: Mhm.
Michael: Or their undoing because I think that’s an issue with really any house is that there are traits from each house that are considered their positives, but can also be reversed severely because I mean, I think we see that, again, in Gryffindor, we see that again with somebody like Cormac McLaggen…
Rosie: Yeah, definitely.
Jennifer: Mhm.
Michael: … who is pride to the extreme, so…
Rosie: Because I keep getting annoyed by the fact that we keep saying, “Is this person in the wrong house?”
Michael: Mhm.
Jennifer: Right.
Rosie: Not necessarily. We can have the negative characteristics of those houses as well.
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: Don’t be so quick to judge people for their houses!
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Noah: Except Slytherins are all evil.
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: I guess you can’t really have… well, you could out cunning yourself in some way. Be the maker of your own downfall. That would be Slytherin’s version of going too far in to their…
Michael: I think… well, I think Slytherin is just…
Jennifer: And Voldemort. [laughs]
Michael: Well, yeah, right?
Rosie: Yeah, exactly.
Jennifer: That’s a pretty good example.
Noah: [as Hagrid] There wasn’t a witch or wizard who went bad that wasn’t a Slytherin. Except for Pettigrew.
Michael: Slytherin’s like the opposite of that case we’re talking about, where…
Rosie: Yeah.
Jennifer: Mhm.
Michael: … Gryffindor’s pride can be a bad thing on occasion, Slytherin’s ambition and cunning can, on occasion, be a good thing.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Michael: Just in as far as how Jo portrays it, so…
Jennifer: Right.
Michael: And I know she’s… I think Rowling’s… she’s really these past few years, ever since the books ended, she’s doing a lot of damage control on the perception of houses.
[Jennifer, Michael, and Rosie laugh]
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: So, because she… I think she realized that her readers actually take this to heart and are just like, “Oh, this… I got sorted into Hufflepuff and this is now psychologically damaging.”
[Jennifer laughs]
Noah: Especially in light of Pottermore.
Michael: Yeah.
Noah: Before that was a thing. She couldn’t have…
Jennifer and Michael: Yeah.
Noah: There wasn’t a way for fans to really, truly know what they were. I mean even so with Pottermore, you can argue that you don’t know truly if that’s correct, but, oh man, the stresses that…
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
strong>Noah: … must have happened to some Hufflepuffs and Slytherins, even though I’m in Hufflepuff.
Rosie: But always be aware that if you’re reading a news article and it says that JKR regrets something, she probably didn’t regret it.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Rosie: It’s probably just news speak.
Noah: That’s a whole other argument and personally, I feel like she probably did regret it. I’m sure the word was used to create more views, but it’s like the writer was finding the edge and finding the truth in the words that the author isn’t saying.
Rosie: By misinterpreting a quote out of context, yes, of course!
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Rosie: I would like to point you all…
Noah: The fact is Harry and Hermione should have been together and we should probably move on to the next…
Rosie: Yeah.
Jennifer: Yes.
Rosie: I would like to point you all in the direction of HufflepuffSkein’s really interesting analysis of how the trials in task three actually reflect both the Hogwarts houses as we’ve just discussed…
Michael: Mhm.
Rosie: … and also the events of Book 7, so all of the Horcrux hunt and all that kind of thing. It’s quite a long post, so it’s too long to really go here, but it’s a brilliant commentary. So do go and check it out.
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: Also in the forums, just like the Pensieve, we had some amazing commentary on the Portkeys again, which is obviously important for the end of the previous chapter, but we’ve discussed it so much and we’ve had our Pottermore feature already, so we are leaving those discussions to you guys now. But they are brilliant, so do keep them up.
Noah: You’re such a tease, Rosie.
Rosie: I’m sorry.
[Noah laughs]
Rosie: I’ll give you a teaser again.
[Everyone laughs]
Rosie: There’s a really good one about the idea that two people grabbing a Portkey at the same time could never be completely in sync.
Jennifer: Mhm.
Rosie: So how come one isn’t whipped off somewhere and the other one left there stranded?
Michael: Mhm. Yeah, that would be…
Noah: [in a British accent] And if you turned yourself into a Portkey, well…
[Michael laughs]
Noah: … you would just transport yourself into any number of places. [laughs]
Michael: We’ll do a little bit of recollection on Portkeys in the chapter discussion just because I think it was on a lot of people’s minds.
[Jennifer laughs]
Michael: I saw the forum discussions and I was like, “Wow!”
Jennifer: Big source of stress.
Michael: There were a lot of good questions raised about Portkeys, so…
Rosie: Yeah. So I’ve taken that theme and found one question that’s slightly based on that, but in a different direction. So welcome back to mrso822, who’s finally caught up with us again, and she has said,
“I think if only Cedric had touched the cup, he still would have died. Voldemort would have been so angry to not see Harry that he still would have killed Cedric just for spite (similar to the poor family living in Gregorovitch’s old house in DH). However, I also think it would have delayed Voldemort’s return to his body. He seemed pretty intent on using Harry’s blood, as evidenced by his discussion with Pettigrew in the first chapter, so I think he would have waited and come up with a different plan to get Harry.”
Do you guys agree?
Jennifer and Michael: Yes.
Noah: I think there’s a slight chance that… I mean, what if Voldemort had thought that Cedric was Harry, just for an instant and just been like, [as Voldemort] “Boy, you’re bigger than I thought!” [laughs]
Rosie: He hasn’t seen him in three years and frankly…
[Michael and Noah laugh]
Michael: I think Pettigrew would have figured that out.
Noah: [as Voldemort] You’ve dyed your hair!
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: [as Pettigrew] No master, no, that’s no. [laughs] Kill the spare.
[Everyone laughs]
Rosie: Okay, so yeah. We’re pretty much in agreement that Cedric would have died no matter what.
Noah: Yeah.
Jennifer: I think so. I think it’s saying…
Michael: Unfortunately.
Jennifer: … that he was touching that Portkey, he wasn’t going to be around anymore.
Rosie: Yeah. Would Voldemort have even actually been able to return if it wasn’t Harry?
Jennifer: Well, he…
Rosie: Because, I mean, Cedric still counts as an enemy to Voldemort. He’s still a good guy. He could have been using his blood, but not quite the same effect.
Jennifer: Does he definitely… I mean, I understand he could count as an enemy, but it also seems like just based on the next chapter, the way he’s just characterized as a spare…
Rosie: Yeah.
Jennifer: … that he’s more of just a non-entity to Voldemort. I mean Harry seems like his…
Michael: Mhm.
Noah: Yeah.
Jennifer: … truest enemy. So there…
Rosie: But that’s the thing, he’s a spare because Harry is also there. If Harry wasn’t there, he would be the only guy…
Jennifer: Right.
Rosie: … that he could use.
Michael: Yeah, I don’t think he would because Voldemort’s so intent on getting Harry’s blood because of the protection thing because he knows about that, so…
Rosie: Yeah.
Noah: Unless… is Cedric like a spare? Because in bowling, you have two bowling pins…
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Noah: … and Voldemort’s like, “Get the spare, Pettigrew!”
Jennifer: We’ve been misinterpreting it all this time!
Rosie: This whole time!
[Jennifer and Rosie laugh]
Michael: See listeners, we told you, Hufflepuffs! We keep it light.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
strong>Noah: [as Voldemort] Kill the spare. You’ve got it!
[Rosie laughs]
Noah: Because he didn’t expect him to go for a strike because that’s absurd. You can never get that.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Rosie: Okay, Noah. [laughs]
Michael: That was hilarious and horrible.
[Michael and Noah laugh]
Rosie: But just think, if Cedric had been transported and Harry had been left in the maze, what would Harry be thinking? Like, “Oh, great, he’s got a lift to the outside and I’ve got to work my way back?”
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: Probably.
Jennifer: I think he would have thought he just got back to the beginning and then he had to find his way out. Or he probably would just think, “Well, they’ll probably get rid of the maze in a second using magic and I’ll be able to just walk to the front.”
Rosie: Yeah.
Noah: I’m pretty sure his head would have split open in that moment when Voldemort realized it was Cedric and not Harry and then he would have been…
Rosie: True! Yeah.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Noah: … on the ground, trying to move, but in so much pain, vomiting, and then he’d be eaten by the Blast-Ended Skrewt.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Jennifer: And the books would have ended right there.
Noah: Yeah.
Jennifer: Just done.
Rosie: But don’t forget that you’ve also got Moody – Little Crouch – watching what’s going on, so he would have seen Harry had been left behind so he could have just run up and done something.
Noah: Apparated.
Rosie: You can’t Apparate in Hogwarts!
Noah: Oh, yeah.
Rosie: He could have made another Portkey or something.
Michael: Backup emergency Portkey.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Michael: Shove it in Harry’s hand like, “Oh, you won the second prize. Here you go.”
[Everyone laughs]
Noah: No, no. The Portkey was… that wasn’t real. This is the real Triwizard Cup.
[Jennifer, Michael, and Rosie laugh]
Noah: You did it! Good job!
Rosie: Okay. And a few people, including DanSharp and AccioPotassium! again and others, have suggested that Little Crouch was trying to set up Viktor for Harry’s murder because, obviously, we see him under the Imperius Curse and trying to curse people. I think he did curse Fleur, doesn’t he?
Jennifer: Mhm.
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: So do you think that it would have been Harry’s body returned to the maze after Voldemort kills him and then Viktor going down for the crime because Fleur and people could testify, if anyone actually survived the maze?
Michael: Oh.
Jennifer: It’s hard to imagine Voldemort not wanting to take credit for killing Harry.
Rosie: But you have to remember that he’s got the whole… the plan goes wrong. He wasn’t supposed to be advertising his return until he was up to full power, so he may have wanted that delay.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: That would have… wow. I never thought of that. That’s a really clean murder plan right there.
Rosie: It is.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: Because… yeah.
Rosie: All of these magical alibis.
Michael: Yeah. That’s a great way to fill that gap because yeah, if Harry had just… if his body had just been Portkeyed back in and there was no accountability…
Rosie: No one knows what went on in that maze. We know that from the next book.
Michael: Yeah, that’s true.
Noah: So now I would like to cover the responses from the Podcast Question of the Week last week. I asked a question because I was a little perturbed by some comments Harry was making while in the maze. Let me just read… let me backtrack, read the exact question. Several moments throughout the maze, Harry had these weird thoughts of winning the Triwizard Tournament. It’s awkward because right after he hears Fleur scream, he feels bad, but then immediately thinks, “One contestant down.” Is this possibly Harry’s Slytherin side coming out? Or perhaps a bit of Voldemort’s influence? Or is this part of Harry’s normal character? And if so, what are the implications of that for Harry as we know him? Just how ambitious is Harry? So we got a lot of good comments. The first one is from Honeydukes Empire, which captured most of the responses:
“Personally, I think this is part of Harry’s character, and Voldemort doesn’t have anything to do with it. In the first book, the Sorting Hat says he has a thirst to prove himself and after he wins his first Quidditch match, he’s happy to not just be a name anymore. This is probably that determined, ambitious side of him coming out. He’s blinded by this at the moment because he was thrown into this tournament while knowing he isn’t as advanced with magic as his competitors, and he probably also doesn’t respond to Fleur’s scream because he remembers how it wasn’t necessary to save Gabrielle in the Second Task. But in the end, Harry doesn’t go along with Cedric’s idea of Harry taking the cup by himself because he comes to his senses and is able to let go of this idea of wanting to be the winner and come out on top.”
So lots of different thoughts in there, but the general idea is that this isn’t Slytherin, this isn’t the Horcrux. This is just natural Harry, who is… he’s an ambitious guy and he wants to win and in this case, has these thoughts because he’s more interested in winning than saving people, even though he has outstanding moral fiber in the Second Task.
Rosie: Is this the first time where we really don’t experience Harry’s saving people thing?
Michael: We get a little bit of it because he does, at first, seem inclined to see what happened to Fleur because he’s… when he hears her scream, he’s right – he’s just about to step into the gold mist and his…
Rosie: Yeah. True.
Michael: … her being in danger is actually part of his, I think, thought process of getting out of the mist is because he doesn’t know what’s up ahead and he’s thinking if she is up there that he can possibly help her, is at least, the sense that I got from the way that that segment is written.
Rosie: Mhm.
Michael: It’s interesting too because with this point… this was a great question, Noah, and we’ll of course elaborate further on this later, but the movie takes a different tack with this by having Harry actually save Fleur.
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: And then the movie ends up implying that the maze is actually – the atmosphere of the maze is actually what’s influencing the bad decision-making because in the book that’s not the case at all. The maze doesn’t have… the maze is not implied to have an influence on their thought process.
Noah: But in the movies, is that Fleur he’s saving or Cedric?
Michael: He saves Fleur. She’s actually being eaten. After she gets attacked by Krum, she’s getting eaten by the vines of the maze and Harry sends up red sparks for her.
Noah: Okay.
Michael: So he actually finds her and helps her in the movie, whereas in the book he thinks about doing it, but he’s just like, “I don’t know where she is, so I’ll just keep going because…”
Noah: Because I was thinking of another scene later in the movie where he sees the Cup and he’s with Cedric and Cedric’s being attacked and he looks back and he’s thinking about it.
Michael: Yeah. It’s the… yeah. It’s the same kind of thing.
Noah and Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: So… but… yeah, no. It’s a good question just because the movie takes such a different approach, such a drastically different approach to the character’s… the reason behind the character’s motivations.
Noah: Yeah. It’s way more ambiguous.
Jennifer: Mhm.
Michael: Yeah, so…
Noah: And maybe because… maybe they’re doing that because we don’t want to hate Harry or the moviemakers don’t want us to be thinking any less of Harry, but that comes through in the book.
Michael: Well, yeah, no. We discussed that last week too about how when they do get to the… when Harry and Cedric get to the Cup and the idea that if Harry had let, or if Harry had taken the Cup, then Cedric wouldn’t have died, but what would we think of Harry as a character…
Jennifer: Right.
Michael: … for being so selfish as to go and get the Cup for himself? Because that was clearly his motivation at that point…
Noah: Mhm.
Michael: … because the narration says that he’s angry at Cedric because he got to the Cup just like he got to Cho first and that portion of Harry’s thinking is revealed there, that this is…
Noah: That’s interesting. That really puts Cho on a… that elevates Cho to a Triwizard Cup, you know what I mean?
Jennifer: Yeah. [laughs]
Michael: Yes, it does. Yes, she’s a prize.
Jennifer: For a fourteen-year-old boy.
Noah: She’s been objectified.
Michael: Yep. So…
Jennifer: I think it illustrates nicely also how Rowling defines what matters in character. Not so much that people have impulses, but do you override the negative ones and do you choose to conduct yourselves in ways that are conducive with a good character? And I think she’s showing that struggle, both in the way that Harry interacts with… or how he responds to hearing Fleur’s scream and then also how he responds to coming up upon the cup with Cedric and what decision he ultimately makes in both cases.
Noah: Yeah, yeah, agreed. I think the best characters often are more well-rounded anyway.
Jennifer: Right.
Michael: Mhm.
Noah: We don’t really want to read about goody two-shoes…
[Jennifer laughs]
Noah: … who are basically doing everything right. In fact, we have one comment from StoneHallows who says, in regards to Harry,
“I think this is human nature. As much as we would like to think that we are all good, no one is. Everyone has a dark side. It’s those that ignore their dark inclinations and desires and do what is right anyway that we consider to be heroic and good. I think the fact that Harry thinks this momentarily makes him more human. I don’t think anyone would be able to go through life having only pure thoughts and intentions 100% of the time. To be honest, characters that are portrayed as such annoy me because they are unrealistic.”
Rosie: Very true.
Michael: Yeah.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Noah: Right.
Michael: And we talked about that last week, too, in regards to Molly Weasley and how she condemns Diggory for…
Noah: Hermione.
Michael: Well, she condemns both – Hermione for what she thinks she’s done, and yet she condemns Diggory’s dad – Amos Diggory – for listening to Rita Skeeter’s words and then of course doing that herself.
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: We see a lot of that with… I like that about a lot of the characters in Harry Potter, that they are well-rounded and they do all have faults. And Rowling makes sure to… any character you idealize early on, they will all fall off of their pedestals throughout the series. [laughs]
Jennifer Mhm.
Noah: Yeah. Like Dumbledore, in a big way, elevated in the very beginning to almost a God-like persona….
Michael: Oh, yeah.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin… even Hermione has her moment… everybody. Everybody has their fault or moments where they just show that, yeah, they’re human.
Jennifer: Well, it kind of makes sense, too, with Harry growing up, right? That’s often how kids see their parents first as being super idealized and you don’t see the details. And then over time he becomes more aware of this himself, but also through his eyes often we see the other people in his life. Some are obviously more good or more bad, but in order to really know someone you have to know the full spectrum.
Rosie: And this is obviously most obvious with the conundrum about James and Snape…
Jennifer: Definitely.
Rosie: … and his whole problem when he actually sees James acting in a non-moral way…
Michael: Mhm.
Noah: Yeah.
Rosie: … and his whole breakdown over that thing.
Jennifer: It’s hard to reconcile.
Rosie: Yeah.
Noah: The truth is – let’s be honest here – James and Lily were just terrible people.
[Rosie laughs]
Noah: They were just awful. But anyway, back to the Question of the Week comments…
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: We look forward to your forum comments!
[Everyone laughs]
Jennifer: I just want to be clear. Only one person said that!
[Everyone laughs]
Rosie: Yeah. That’s all Noah… as usual. [laughs]
Noah: This comment from Halfbloodprincess:
“I do think that was Harry’s Slytherin side coming out; however, that is not a bad thing! We all have a little Slytherin in us, it s just more pronounced in some people than others. The thing is, Harry had now endured a year of self doubt, taking a lot of hate from the media and Draco. Everybody thought he would fail, including himself. And now that he’s made it this far, and actually has a chance at winning, it must seem almost surreal to him. He sees that what was for so long nothing more than a dream finally has the chance to become a reality.”
Hmm…
Michael: I think it’s so… and I’ve got to give kudos to StarKid for pointing out the fault in this whole situation, which is that when originally approached in their version of the show of the story about the Triwizard Tournament, Harry is just like, “Fame and fortune? Glory? Already got that.”
[Everyone laughs]
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: And it’s kind of amazing that Harry… it’s interesting to me that Harry doesn’t… he wants to win this tournament… his motivation for winning the Tournament is to be elevated in the eyes of Cho.
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: But it is interesting that he wants to do that rather than capitalize on the fame he already has.
Rosie: He doesn’t want to be famous.
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: It’s like we don’t ever get the “But I am the Chosen One” moment really in the books as much as we do in the films and things.
Jennifer: Mhm.
Michael: Yes.
Noah: Mhm.
Michael: Yeah, it’s just interesting that he already has the opportunity to impress Cho. He has the tools to do that, supposedly.
Rosie: He just doesn’t want to.
Michael: He just… yeah. He chooses not to. He’d rather earn her affection through winning a temporary competition.
[Jennifer laughs]
Michael: But there is the implication that this temporary competition will bring you lasting fortune and glory and, oh my gosh, you’ll be in the books forever.
Rosie: But it does then… if he survives this tournament and wins, that’s an achievement entirely based on his own merit…
Michael: Mmm. Mhm.
Rosie: Whereas his current fame and fortune, etcera, is all to do with the fact that his parents died, which is a horrible thing to be famous for.
Michael: And that does go along here with what Halfbloodprincess is saying then, that that is perhaps that ambitious aspect that the Sorting Hat picked up in him. That maybe wasn’t necessarily just Voldemort’s Horcrux in him…
Jennifer: Mhm.
Michael: … but also that Harry does in fact have this thirst to prove himself to other people.
Rosie: Yeah.
Noah: But it might have been, Michael.
Jennifer: It also goes nicely with what you all were saying last week, too, about this is the first – I think it was last week, maybe it was two chapters ago…
Michael: Mhm.
Jennifer: … where this is the first time he’s feeling truly confident…
Michael and Rosie: Yeah.
Jennifer: And we were talking earlier a bit about how each house has the things that they’re known for that are positives but it can go too far…
Noah and Rosie: Mhm.
Jennifer: And so maybe this is him sort of teetering on that brink, that he finally has that confidence that will allow him to maybe be brave and be great, but it maybe just went a little too far in the moment.
Noah: Yeah, I feel like that’s sort of the bridge that all Gryffindors have to be weary of. They also have a tinge of ambition in them because they want to be brave and be courageous and go out in there, but that often goes hand-in-hand with some kind of larger success. And being caught up in the vanity of all that is an easy trap.
Jennifer and Michael: Mhm.
Noah: But Michael, you were saying before that it might not be the Horcrux inside Harry that was motivating him in this scene, but somebody else, Leah McCurdy…
Michael: Ooh.
Noah: … thinks otherwise.
[Jennifer laughs]
Noah: [continues]
“Just to play devil’s advocate, perhaps this is a Voldemort Horcrux connection at this point. Voldemort is likely quite keyed up and anticipating Harry arriving at the graveyard right now. We know that later on Voldemort’s emotional state influences Harry’s feelings, so perhaps this is one of the beginnings of that and his normal range of competitive spirit as a Gryffindor is amplified because Voldemort is particularly vicious and murderous right now.”
Michael: Oof! I would be inclined to say no. I feel like that’s holding Voldemort way too accountable for Harry’s actions.
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: And it almost completely discredits the actions Harry takes in the maze.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: Because what we discussed last week that I think is important is that there’s a lot of things that Harry does in the maze that foreshadow the bravery that he’s going to perform in these upcoming chapters. The maze is almost a precursor of showing how brave Harry is…
Rosie: Mhm.
Noah: Good idea.
Michael: So I’m personally hesitant to give Voldemort that much accountablity for Harry’s actions in the maze.
Rosie: Yeah.
Noah: Right, and I think the extent that you do that, you’re just going down a slippery slope.
Jennifer: Of free will not existing. [laughs]
Michael: Yeah.
Noah: Right. To what extent does Harry control his emotions and his doings?
Michael: Yeah. It’s almost like it would be sad if that was the case.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Michael: I do think that that streak in Harry to want to – as we discussed – prove yourself outside of the reason he’s famous being that his parents are dead, I think that’s his and his alone. That’s not something that Voldemort…
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: That’s not something that Voldemort is directly influencing by making Harry feel that way.
Rosie: No.
Michael: Yeah, I think that would take away… because that also accounts for a lot of the actions Harry’s going to take in the other books. That almost purely accounts for his relationship with Snape and how he is just determined to prove himself to Snape so that Snape gets off his back. So yeah, again I’d be hesitant to say that Voldemort is to blame.
Noah: Yeah. I’m inclined to agree. I think Harry’s unconscious is his own and any movements he makes based on Voldemort are when he’s feeling tormented by the pain in his head, but then he makes those actions consciously. I don’t know if I buy into this idea – the Horcrux within him unconsciously doing stuff to him. Of course, it does in his dreams but it’s like it’s still a separate entity within his consciousness, the Horcrux.
Michael: Yeah. I think that’s the thing that we’re finding we need to be more careful with as we go through this reread – how much weight we place on certain things that we know now from Rowling…
Noah: Yeah.
Jennifer: Mhm.
Michael: … because there’s also… with Pottermore she’s been able to even go back and on occasion retcon things that she was like, “Oops!” And she’ll add in little things like…
Noah: Where’s the Map? [laughs]
Michael: Exactly. She’ll go and add little things to fix the little details that we didn’t see that you had to assume were there. But we also have to be careful because we do actually have a book with text in front of us, and you have to be careful about how far you stretch that text before suddenly you’re completely imposing meaning on it.
Jennifer: Mhm.
Noah: Well, that’s a whole other thing. I don’t think of it as stretching text, I think of it as building on text – the text is alive and growing.
Michael: Oh, yeah. And I definitely think there’s places that is apt to build on text, definitely. But sometimes to say… there’s no real narrative evidence that the Horcrux is doing this particular thing to Harry, because if you apply to that, you get really into risky – like you said, Noah – slippery slope territory of “Let’s apply lots of things to the Horcrux and say that Harry ate cake today because Voldemort wanted cake.”
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: [laughs] So…
Rosie: No one ever celebrates Tom Riddle’s birthday.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Harry just finds himself eating cake in December…
Noah: [as Harry] “I’m not… I just wanted cake today…”
Michael: [as Harry] “I just want cake. Somebody should give me a present today. I don’t know why.”
[Everyone laughs]
Noah: “Is it my birthday?”
Michael: [laughs] So… no.
Noah: So those were all the comments I wanted to throw in. They were great, great points. This was an exciting question. Thank you very much.
Michael: Yes. Thank you, listeners. And now, we’re all going to grab the Portkey obstensibly at the same time…
[Jennifer and Rosie laugh]
Michael: … and head into Chapter 32 of Goblet of Fire.
[Goblet of Fire Chapter 32 intro begins]
Voldemort: “Kill the spare.”
Wormtail: Chapter 32. Avada Kedavra!
[Sound of Cedric’s body falling to the ground]
Wormtail: “Flesh, Blood and Bone.”
[Goblet of Fire Chapter 32 intro ends]
Michael: All right. So, the chapter begins with Harry and Cedric being Portkeyed into an area – they have no idea where it is. Of course, we the readers – rereaders – now know that this is the graveyard in Little Hangleton. I did not know this immediately when it occured when I first read it – I had no idea where they were. But since there was so much discussion in the forums on the mechanics of the Portkey, I did want to at least touch on the most important points from Rowling’s summary of Portkeys on Pottermore. Now you can go back to Episode 53 if you’re looking for a more thorough discussion on that, but the points that I wanted to bring up that Rowling said are:
“Almost any inanimate object can be turned into a Portkey. Once bewitched, the object will transport anyone who grasps it to a pre-arranged destination. A Portkey may also be enchanted to transport the grasper (or graspers) only at a given time. In this way, the arrivals and departures of great numbers of witches and wizards can be staggered, enabling such events as the Quidditch World Cup to take place with few security breaches.”
Noah: So…
Michael: So I wanted to bring up that point again because it was debated a lot on the forums as why this Portkey is permitted to transport Harry and Cedric without any time constraint. Because a lot of the Portkeys and the Portkey we see prior to this in this book has a set time for when it needs to leave.
Noah: Well, don’t Portkeys have to be registered through the Ministry or something to that effect?
Rosie: Supposedly.
Michael: Supposedly.
Rosie: But we’ve got…
[Jennifer laughs]
Rosie: … a lot of examples of that not happening. And…
Jennifer: Pretty sure this one wasn’t.
Rosie: No. Yeah.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Jennifer: Just going to go ahead and say that right now.
Michael: Crouch Jr…
Rosie: Dumbledore…
Michael: … went to the Ministry and filled out a form.
Noah: Submit-a-form.
[Michael laughs]
Noah: [as an Ministry official] “You want to use this Portkey to do what?”
[Jennifer, Michael, and Rosie laugh]
Michael: [as Barty Crouch Jr.] “To bring back the Dark Lord!”
Jennifer: I was about to say…
[Everyone laughs]
Noah: “I don’t think I can let this go through.” [as Barty Crouch Jr.] “No! No, please!” [as a Ministry official] “No.”
Michael: [as Barty Crouch Jr.] “That’s a modest request!”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: So… yeah.
Rosie: Dumbledore also creates one in Order of the Phoenix to transport them to Grimmauld Place. So we do see them being created and used straight away without time constraints.
Michael: Mhm.
Rosie: That as well.
Michael: Yes. So I…
Noah: You would think though that they would be smart enough not to make a Portkey that goes back to Hogwarts. Couldn’t they just make it go to the graveyard?
Michael: Well…
Rosie: Ah, but Noah, a door opened can be walked through in both ways.
Michael: [laughs] Well, we’ll discuss that actually…
[Jennifer and Rosie laugh]
Michael: … because I did want to touch on that. The only other point that’s worth bringing up is that Rowling mentioned the sensation of the Portkey is extremely uncomfortable. Which I listened to Episode 53 and Rosie, you were saying, “Why does everything that transports you in the magical world have to suck?”
[Jennifer, Micheal, and Rosie laugh]
Rosie: There is no comfortable magical transportation.
Michael: [laughs] But Noah, that question you raised, that was a big question for a lot of the listeners actually last week. Why is this Portkey a two-way Portkey, and have we ever seen another Portkey that when touched again sends you back from where it came? Is this a special occurence for this situation?
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: Because I guess we can go with the idea that was suggested in the comments that perhaps it was meant to send Harry’s body back.
Noah: Ooh.
Michael: Some people also theorize whether Voldemort was actually going to…
Jennifer: Right.
Michael: … go and make an appearance at Hogwarts, because it would have been an end to Hogwarts because it’s hard…
Jennifer: You can’t Apparate. But he could do this.
Michael and Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: So…
Noah: I was also thinking that maybe because this Portkey was manufactured not under Ministry control but kind of by these other wizards…
Michael: Mhm.
Noah: … maybe, as a result, it doesn’t have a time constraint and goes between the graveyard and Hogwarts and that’s just an effect.
Michael: Yeah, so theoretically if perhaps someone were to touch – like when Harry came back – if someone had touched the Portkey again without taking the charm off of it, would it have taken them to the graveyard? Would that Portkey still keep working after the fact? Is it just permanent until somebody takes the spell off?
Noah: I would imagine so.
Jennifer: Well, didn’t he pick it up again later? They touch the cup again once he’s back.
Rosie: Isn’t it… his winnings are given to him in the cup. Is that something?
Jennifer: Yeah. I think…
Rosie: Am I just remembering that?
Jennifer: No. I think you’re right. I know that… I feel like Harry touched the cup again at some point and didn’t go back to the graveyard. At least that’s my memory. I might be wrong.
Rosie: Maybe Little Crouch takes it off straight away.
Jennifer: That could be it also.
Michael: That could be it because he probably erased…
Noah: Right, because it could be evidence.
Michael: Yeah, evidence. So, there were still a lot of questions about Portkeys and why this particular Portkey acts the way it does. Feel free to theorize further, listeners, in the forums because we unfortunately don’t really have much more proof on that from Rowling on what’s going on with this particular Portkey. I’m just inclined to believe that this is just a very extreme and unusual situation that we are dealing with – an extreme and unusual Portkey. Because we already know that as well we are dealing with magic, that Little Crouch is capable of magic that the average wizard would not be. So…
Noah: Right.
Michael: … we have a very special Portkey on our hands.
Noah: And Michael, I’m sorry that I now see it right here before me that animate objects can’t be turned into Portkeys.
Michael: Yes. Yes. That’s the other little point that she mentions on Pottermore that Portkeys usually are inanimate objects. If you are listening to the Wizolympics, you will know that the Japanese Portkeyed into the Wizolympics using a panda, so…
[Jennifer, Michael, and Rosie laugh]
Michael: But…
Noah: And that was highly irregular.
Michael: Yes.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Michael: So once Harry and Cedric arrive in the graveyard they kind of take in their surroundings. They notice that there’s a little house on a hill to their left, and a detail that I never picked up before until this reading is that there is a yew tree on their right.
Noah: Mhm.
Michael: And going along with the idea that Rowling never skimps on details and never puts anything there just because, I thought it would be interesting to just do a little bit examination on yew as a wood because Rowling summarizes yew…
Noah: I’m not a wood.
Michael: And…
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Michael: She summarizes the yew tree through Pottermore and as we know now, Voldemort’s wand is made out of yew and yew is frequently associated with death. The Elder Wand is not made of yew but we get that relation through Voldemort’s wand. And on Pottermore, Ollivander is the one who talks about all the wand woods, so I guess I’ll read it in his voice because it wouldn’t be proper otherwise.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: So, [as Ollivander] “Yew wands are among the rarer kinds, and their ideal matches are likewise unusual and occasionally notorious. The wand of yew is reputed to endow its possesser with the power of life and death, which might, of course, be said of all wands; and yet yew retains a particularly dark and fearsome reputation in the spheres of duelling and all curses. However, it is untrue to say (as those unlearned in wandlore often do) that those who use yew wands are more likely to be attracted to the Dark Arts than another. The witch or wizard best suited to a yew wand might equally prove a fierce protector of others. Wands hewn from these most long-lived trees have been found in the possession of heroes quite as often as of villains. Where wizards have been buried with wands of yew, the wand generally sprouts into a tree guarding the dead owner’s grave. What is certain, in my experience, is that the yew wand never chooses either a mediocre or a timid owner.”
Rosie: Interesting.
Michael: So there’s a lot of interesting information in there about yew.
Noah: Here’s the thing: all the Pottermore wand woods, I thought they were really fascinating when they first came out…
Michael: Mhm.
Noah: … but I have to say that yew, holly, and the main ones, they got the most epic descriptions.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Noah: Everything else, I’m sorry, it was pretty much random and interesting – a couple – but for the most part…
Michael: Well, you know, it’s…
Noah: A wood that… something to do with life and death…
Rosie: But think this through…
Noah: You don’t get that with the birch.
[Jennifer laughs]
Rosie: We have… we are looking… right. So, we’re looking at this yew wood because we have a yew tree standing in a graveyard.
Michael: Mhm.
Noah: Yeah.
Rosie: What does this say? It says that a wand when buried with its wizard may grow into a yew tree.
Michael: True, yeah.
Rosie: Does this mean there are possibly one of the Three Brothers buried in this graveyard?
[Jennifer laughs]
Noah: Ooh!
Rosie: Maybe one of the ancestors of the Gaunts who lives in that kind of locality of the Gaunts’ house.
Jennifer: Oh!
Michael: Wouldn’t that be interesting? Yeah, I was wondering that because there are more important characters perhaps buried in this graveyard than we know.
Rosie: That would be so cool.
Michael: Yeah.
Jennifer: It would make a lot of sense.
Rosie: [unintelligible] … that would blow me.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Michael: Yeah. No, it would be logical if… definitely a Gaunt is a possibility. Because we know that they lived close to the Riddles. So, there’s a lot of interesting little detail there and I just found it interesting because I was sure that Rowling didn’t just arbitrarily put a yew tree there and say, “Oh! There’s a yew tree to the right, by the way.”
[Rosie laughs]
Jennifer: Just wanted to give you a nice visualization.
Michael: Yeah.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: It’s very… I would be inclined to call that the “OGM moment” of this, because it’s just a very nice little detail where if you were to be more knowledgeable on things like that you would be like, “Oh, this is not a good sign.” Everything here is not a good sign!
[Jennifer and Rosie laugh]
Jennifer: Grave graveyard.
Michael: Which is astounding because despite all these bad signs, Harry and Cedric don’t feel inclined to leave. They feel uncomfortable by the situation but they decide to stay because they are under the assumption that this is still part of the Tournament.
Jennifer: Mhm.
Michael: I still remember from the first time reading this screaming, “No! This is not part of the Tournament! I want to go back!”
[Everyone laughs]
Jennifer: Danger! Danger, Will Robinson!
Michael: [laughs] It’s funny to me just because of all the things that would occur in this Tournament, I feel that being sent off the grounds is a pretty good indicator that something’s not right.
Rosie: I remember the first time I read it, I didn’t think they’d been sent off the grounds. I got really confused because I thought the graveyard was still somewhere in Hogwarts.
Jennifer: Ah!
Michael: Ooh!
Noah: I think I thought something like that, too.
Michael: That’d be creepy.
Rosie: So it’s proven that a fourteen-year-old can assume that it’s still part of the Task.
Michael: Mhm. Well, yeah. Under the situation that they’ve been put in, especially because as we’ve discussed, Harry’s been… that great point that Harry wasn’t inclined to save Fleur because perhaps he knew wasn’t supposed to save Gabrielle. We’ve got a lot of training through this tournament that maybe has dulled our senses.
Rosie: Mhm.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: So now we’re here in this graveyard and we’re like, “What do we do? What’s the challenge here?”
Jennifer: Also just thinking again about the fact that… it’s interesting that eventually he has the wherewithal to grab the cup and think that it could take him back.
Rosie: Yeah.
Jennifer: Because you could imagine if… originally, why did he assume it would take him back?
Michael: Yeah.
Jennifer: If the use of a Portkey is to operate in a one-directional way.
Michael: Yeah.
Jennifer: Maybe he didn’t think he had that option to go back.
Michael: Exactly. He has no knowledge that that’s what that would do. It’s almost like because that was literally his only option…
Jennifer: Exactly!
Michael: Yeah. That’s all he’s got. But as we see, a figure approaches and they stand six feet apart from each other for a while quizzically before Harry feels a searing pain in his forehead and drops to his knees and closes his eyes and hears somebody say “Kill the spare!”
Noah: [as Voldemort] “Kill the spare!”
Jennifer: Oh!
Michael: And sadly, Harry hears a thump to his right and looks over and Cedric has been killed.
Rosie: Hufflepuff moment of silence.
Michael: Yes.
[Prolonged silence]
Michael: That was a good moment of silence, guys.
[Rosie laughs]
Noah: I’m now going to do something highly irregular for this podcast, if everyone is okay with it.
Michael: Well, what…
Rosie: Noah, when are you not highly irregular?
[Everyone laughs]
Noah: So, there’s this great wizard rock band called the Ministry of Magic and they have a song called “Pensieve Diggory,” and I’m just going to play a little bit of it.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
[“Pensieve Diggory” by Ministry of Magic begins]
My friends, they all think that I cheated
But I didn’t put my name in the cup
Turns out the cup was a Portkey
In the graveyard is where you reached your fate
Your life
I’m sorry, my friend
Is a lasting reminder
That I will fight until the end
Your death
It pours guilt over me
We see you in limelight
Forever, remember Cedric Diggory
[“Pensieve Diggory” by Ministry of Magic begins]
Michael: Aww.
Noah: All right, thank you for indulging me. Sorry.
Rosie: Well, Noah, I find that highly amusing.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Jennifer: Very uplifting.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: The thing I wanted to discuss here… there [are] a few points about Cedric’s death because one – and one of my biggest points here – when I first read this book, and I had read other literature up to this point where major characters do die, but I remember being very affected by Cedric’s death as a first-time reader of this book.
Noah: Me, too.
Michael: Almost even – and maybe this is more of an individual thing – I was more affected this than even by Dumbledore because I knew Dumbledore was going to die. I had flipped to the… I had [seen] on the chapter titles “The White Tomb,” and I was like, “Well, who would get a white tomb?”
[Jennifer laughs]
Rosie: Yeah.
Noah: It was for me as well. But Cedric… it was so real. I don’t think I’d ever really gotten into… I’d gotten so invested with the story and then to have that happen…
Rosie: And it was so unexpected and so sudden.
Jennifer and Michael: Yeah.
Jennifer: And it’s written exactly the way you would imagine the experience was. It’s just one sentence, and it’s done.
Michael, Noah, and Rosie: Yeah.
Jennifer: And it comes out of nowhere at you.
Michael: And I think for me what was… because I was – and I still am – a very sensitive boy, and the thought that Cedric… this is the first time we see a student get killed in this series. And Cedric was so harmless. Completely innocent.
Rosie: And we spent so long being told that we should be disliking him that now we kind of feel guilty that he’s dead.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Noah: I mean, he took baths. He was like, the cleanest person at Hogwarts.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Michael: Yeah, no, he was an upstanding Hogwarts student, so we salute you, Cedric Diggory.
Rosie: The only good Hufflepuff that we’re really ever introduced to.
Michael: [laughs] The only good Hufflepuff [who] gets a lot of screen time, anyway.
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: But the other interesting point about Cedric’s death here is that Pettigrew uses Voldemort’s wand to kill Cedric, and I wanted to ask, other than the narrative reason, which we know is that so Cedric’s image – ghost image – can pop up again later, why use Voldemort’s wand? My question here, too, is “Does Pettigrew still not have a wand of his own, yet?” Does he ever get a wand of his own, do we know? Because he’s been kind of the surrogate user of Voldemort’s wand for all this time.
Rosie: Yeah. Well, you have to remember that he’s been a rat for a long time, and there’s no real wand-sized pockets on a rat.
[Jennifer laughs]
Michael: Yeah, no, that’s true. I mean, the thing about… and that goes into the thing about transforming into an Animagus because the book implies that when you transform, everything that’s on you stays on you.
Rosie: True, yeah.
Noah: Yeah, like McGonagall’s glasses.
Rosie: So where is his wand?
Noah: So maybe it just becomes a little thing, like a little marking on his side.
Michael: I mean, I wouldn’t…
Rosie: Didn’t he take his wand with him when he changed at the end of Prisoner of Azkaban?
Michael: I thought he tried to steal somebody else’s wand.
Jennifer and Noah: Yeah.
Michael: He tried to steal… was it Lupin’s wand or something? Because Lupin drops his wand when he turns into a werewolf.
Noah: Yeah, yeah.
Rosie: In which case, presumably, yeah, he doesn’t have his wand. He must get one…
Michael: Later.
Rosie: … at least when they capture Ollivander.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, because I figured at some point.
Rosie: But he could also be like using Bertha Jorkins’s wand or someone’s. He could have gotten a wand by now.
Jennifer: Maybe Voldemort doesn’t want him to have one? Maybe if he has Voldemort’s wand, at least then he can’t use it against Voldemort.
Rosie: True, yeah. While he’s weak.
Jennifer: Yeah, maybe it’s another way of Voldemort just having more control over him.
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, that was my assumption for this situation is because Voldemort [is] certainly not intent on giving Pettigrew more power…
Jennifer: No. [laughs]
Michael: … than he thinks he should have. Voldemort is very, very much the control freak and micromanager in this situation.
Jennifer: Yes.
Michael: And he would need somebody to handle his wand since he can’t do it on his own. But I just thought it was interesting because the book never explicitly… we get that detail from Rowling outside of the book. We never get… it’s implied because Cedric comes out of the wand when Voldemort is using it, but there’s no other part of the narrative that makes clear that Pettigrew is using Voldemort’s wand because the wand goes from being used by Pettigrew to somehow being in Voldemort’s robes later because he takes it out of his robes when he gets robed by Pettigrew.
Noah: Well, I think it just sort of stems to Voldemort’s problem here, and Pettigrew is really Voldemort’s servant, and in many ways, as I’m going to talk about later when we get to it, Voldemort has chosen Pettigrew to be his body in a way, to do the things that he needs to do, so naturally, Pettigrew would use Voldemort’s wand so that Pettigrew isn’t even part of the equation. He’s just allowing Voldemort to be active on the universe in a sense.
Rosie: In the same way that Quirrell was in the first book.
Noah: Right. Right. That’s how he uses his servants. He really becomes them or takes them over in a sense. And this is his way of doing it.
Michael: Very true. That’s a great point. So of course, this moment is also a major moment in the books, too, for Harry because this is the definitive time when he has seen death. He has seen it; he has stared it in the face. Rowling actually makes clear in the narration to linger on Harry examining Cedric’s state in death so that Harry can really internalize this later. And I know, Jen, you had some discussion on this to go further into this.
Jennifer: Yeah. I was just struck in rereading this, thinking about how the last time Harry witnessed death he was an infant, and really, obviously, the scar of that has stayed with him, but he has no conscious memory of it, no real memory of what the significance of that event was, at least at that time, and so I think this is really a coming of age moment for him in a number of ways that, for the first time, he’s seen death, which is a very, obviously, shaking and adultlike experience, but he also has the adultlike ability to really process what this means. And then this will fundamentally change him forever in terms in how he views the world.
Michael: Mhm. Yeah, well, and back in the day this was a huge point of contention for a lot of people because of this fact that Harry had seen James and… well, he at least saw Lily die.
Jennifer and Noah: Right.
Michael: And a big deal that comes later, of course, in the next book is that Harry can see Thestrals because…
Jennifer: Right.
Michael: … he has seen and internalized death, but the interesting thing to me – with that discussion that’s always stuck with me – is how much Harry’s parents’ death affects him in the previous book – in Prisoner – when he can actually hear his parents screaming…
Jennifer and Rosie: Yeah.
Jennifer: And so there is… while there’s not necessarily… he doesn’t have a visual for what happened, and all he has is the green light of [the Killing Curse], but he has internalized things about that death…
Jennifer: Right.
Michael: … that have stuck with him and that the Dementors bring out in him, so I did think it was interesting that Rowling… her reasoning behind this, especially with the Thestrals, is that this is the first death that Harry has internalized, but I feel that there’s a fair argument that’s not necessarily the case.
Jennifer: Well, and it might be different kinds of memory. [As] a child we’re able to learn lots of different things, but it’s more implicit. He may have learned, for example, that next time he saw Voldemort he d have some sense to stay away from this guy. Just from having some memory as a baby even if it’s not really fully formed. But this is a true, rich, meaningful memory that will stay with him where he’ll understand the exact significance of it. He’ll know all of the details of exactly what was happening. It’s just a more coherent, significant instance in that way.
Michael: Yeah, yeah. This will… he was so present for this moment he was almost… he feels partially responsible for this death.
Jennifer: Yes.
Michael: There’s a lot more.
Noah: Not to jump the gun, but how do we think Thestral magic works or activates?
Michael Oh, what’s… how that death defines…
Noah: How does that trigger the ability to see them?
Jennifer: What’s the mechanism?
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, that… they…
Jennifer: Hmm.
Michael: See, that’s tough. That’s what this debate comes down to is how much you’ve internalized death.
Noah: Somehow once you’ve had this experience you’re able to pick up on something that the Thestrals maybe give off.
Jennifer: Right.
Michael: Mhm.
Jennifer: Opening up another eye for you, almost, to see with.
Noah: Mhm… ooh.
Michael: But moving on from this very tragic point, Harry is dragged to the marble headstone by Pettigrew. I just had to point out that, while that headstone was previously six feet away…
[Jennifer laughs]
Michael: … it is suddenly now twenty feet away.
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Michael: There’s a big difference in distance because I checked carefully because I was very tired when I read the chapter, so I wasn’t sure I was reading it correctly, but I did make sure to read, and when Pettigrew stops by the marble headstone, which she has noted in the narrative as “the big marble headstone,” he is six feet away from Harry and Cedric, but then when Harry is taken to the headstone, he claims from his view that Cedric is twenty feet away. Now, I know probably the main reason for this is of course is to up the tension for how Harry is going to get out.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: Increasing the distance increases the risk. But I just thought that was a bit of a boo-boo. A pretty blatant…
Noah: When you see Harry…
Rosie: You can put it down to Harry exaggerating.
Michael: Harry’s exaggerating. [laughs]
Jennifer: His perception is changing.
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: They don’t have…
Noah: He’s in an emotional state right now.
Rosie: [laughs] Yes.
Michael: They don’t have math at Hogwarts either, so…
Jennifer: [laughs] That’s true.
Michael: [laughs] Distance is hard to judge.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: And Jen, you had a great point here.
Jennifer: Oh, yeah. I found it very eerie in reading this when suddenly you see the text of Tom Riddle written on the gravestone, and for a moment you think “Oh, Voldemort is dead.”
[Jennifer and Rosie laugh]
Jennifer: Problem’s solved. And then realize that’s definitely not the case, but it’s an interesting juxtaposition of seeing, obviously, his father’s headstone but knowing that that also is his name, and that sort of foreshadows his own death in the future, which is a weird thing to see in a scene where he’s being resurrected. Seeing those two things simultaneously is a strange sort of thing to pick up on for the reader.
Michael: Mhm, yeah.
Rosie: It also really drives home that idea of resurrection.
Jennifer: Yes.
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: You’re standing on a point [that] represents death. Therefore, him coming back at this point is extremely significant.
Jennifer: And I’m sure Voldemort really likes this feeling that he’s defying death, which he sees to be such a point of weakness.
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: Oh, yes.
Jennifer: It really ups the ante for him.
Michael: This is a very theatrical event. Voldemort doesn’t skimp on the [laughs] deep meanings of when he does something.
Jennifer: [laughs] Right.
Michael: And that is interesting, too, to mention that this confusing moment of seeing Tom Riddle’s name on a gravestone because with the generations of Tom Riddles that we’ve had, I remember being very befuddled by this particular moment when I first read it because we’ve known that there were other Tom Riddles who have existed, of course, before Voldemort. And I was…
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: Who is this?
[Jennifer laughs]
Michael: Which Tom Riddle is this? What is going on right now? And it’s great because it does contribute to the intensely confusing surreal quality of this chapter because I remember with rereading this… and I’ve always felt this with all the readings, and this chapter is really the beginning of where this series really does take a turn for me, tonally.
Jennifer: Mhm.
Noah: Oh, yeah.
Michael: And it’s so clear in the writing, just that things have gone in a completely different direction from what we’re used to.
Jennifer: Life is not always fair from here on out. [laughs]
Michael: Yes, yeah. Everything’s not all magic and fun anymore, so…
Jennifer: No.
Michael: All right. So once Harry has been properly bound to this headstone by Pettigrew, he doesn’t really know what to do and…
[Jennifer laughs]
Michael: … he can’t really see very much that’s going on, other than, of course, what we noted before. Cedric’s body and the Triwizard Cup, which is gleaming quite a bit a ways away. And then finally, Pettigrew comes back into the scene, carrying the ugly baby thing that he’s left by Harry, which is moving around. This whole thing is just so creepy.
Jennifer: Sounds so awful.
Michael: And he also brings back giant stone cauldron, which he drags in. And he takes out Voldemort’s body from the blankets, and for the first time, we get a full-body physical appearance of Voldemort in the series, and I just thought it was worth noting that this is very similar to what we will see of Voldemort’s last remaining leftovers in King’s Cross in Deathly Hallows. Voldemort will eventually revert back to this state, and as Rowling said later in an interview, that is the state that he will stay in eternally in limbo. He will never…
Rosie: But that’s because the thing that we see at King’s Cross is quite literally the same thing that we’re seeing now.
Jennifer and Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: It’s that very reduced version of him that’s had all of its Horcruxes removed, and it’s the last remaining bit of his soul.
Michael: Mhm. It’s all he has left.
Rosie: Yeah.
Noah: Mhm.
Michael: So that’s horrifying, and also, it amps the disturbing quialites of this chapter that it is in fact described to be a horrifying baby. And so Pettigrew takes the baby Voldemort horrible thing and plops it in the cauldron, and this is where things get really complicated and really bizarre. And I wanted to talk about this process of rebirthing Voldemort because it’s always raised a lot of questions for me as it goes on. One of the major ones for me being that how on Earth does Voldemort survive being submerged in a potion for about fifteen minutes? He doesn’t suffocate or die. It must be… where does this potion come from?
Noah: Right.
Michael: Where would they acquire this kind of magic to give you a body again from a dehumanized state? Where does this… how does this work? Pettigrew, throughout this scene, makes a point of saying aloud the entire process that he is going through to make this rejuvenation happen, and he’s casting spells while he’s saying these really poetic lines, and I was wondering if he’s saying these things… that he has to say them, that these are actually spells or things that he has to say out loud, or is he just reciting the poem because he’s keeping track of the instructions?
Rosie: It’s an incantation. I mean, depictions of witchcraft throughout history have always shown the cauldron with the potion and the incantation that goes alongside it. So I think it… yeah, the lines have to be said for it to happen.
Michael: And the reason it’s interesting to me in this instance is because this is a very unusual thing in the Harry Potter series in as far as how magic operates. We don’t see a lot of magic where you have to do incantations and recite long-winded poems to get what you want. Usually it’s just “Random Latinus Wordus“…
[Noah and Rosie laugh]
Michael: .. and that gets you what you need. So I just…
Jennifer: Well, they’re also not doing potions as much, and this is more in that vein, it seems like.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, there’s definitely a very intense combination of potions and charmwork going on here.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: And I guess the implication, too, that comes from this is that this is very dark, ancient magic because it’s not something we see very frequently because the other thing that I thought was interesting about this process… the thing I point specifically to is the use of the dagger that Pettigrew uses, not only to chop his own hand off, horrifically so, but also to cut Harry and take his blood. These are things that could be done with a wand.
[Jennifer and Noah laugh]
Jennifer: And it sounds so light and fun the way he has… I mean, not really, but the way he has bone coming out of the ground in this magical way and just flying neatly into the cauldron, and then suddenly he’s like, “Now I’m going to have to take a dagger out for the rest of this.” It just seems like a weird turn.
Rosie: Yeah, it’s like an athame, isn’t it? It’s a ceremonial dagger. It’s all part of the ritual.
Michael: Yeah, yeah.
Jennifer: That’s the implication.
Michael: That’s what I got because the other thing that I thought was interesting, too, is that Pettigrew manaully drags the caulddron over to this spot rather than levitate it over, and there’s really a point being made in this situation of how there’s a lot suffering going on here and a lot of pain to make this happen because I’m assuming that if Pettigrew had chopped his hand off with a wand he could probably have easily healed it. If he had done it by magic, I mean, it would still obviously hurt, but we’ve seen things happen where people… like, splinching with Apparating where people lose a body part, and they’re like, “Oh my God,” but they’re not… they don’t fall over dead.
Jennifer: [laughs] Yeah.
Michael: And then, of course, to cut Harry manually with a knife probably hurts quite a bit more than being…
Noah: Well, I thought what was intertesting here is we have a birthing cermeony for all rights an pruposes, but there’s no woman. It’s just these three men who are coming together to try to do a birthing ceremony without a female, so it’s taking magic and some other weird stuff, but I have some theories about this whole thing.
Michael: Yeah, if you want to go and do your thing a little bit, Noah, about that because there is definitely a point about that. Who’s the feminine role in this situation of rebirth?
Noah: Yeah, so just to back myself up a little bit, I wrote an esaay a little while ago based on this passage, and the idea is that, with literary theory, which I like to consider myself a student of, every single text that you take operates on multiple levels. You have one level that’s just plot, just events that are occurring. But then there’s another level of words and the way that they interact in passages and in the text itself and ideas and themes that are weaving through, and Jo is really good abour this because she takee key words and sprinkles them throughout her books, and whenever those words appear – even if they come across different books – you can create a pattern, or there’s thread and within that thread there is an idea as being represented, so the reason that I was weirded out by this is because the word “penetrate” comes up, and that’s classicly related to some sort of sexual thing. And I know, very, very far from Harry Potter, in terms of its themes for sure, but I just want to read this passage. And I just ask all of you to think about it in terms of how this is setting up almost a sexual scenario – and not a good one; it’s a traumatizing one. So this is when Wormtail is taking the blood: “‘Blood of the enemy, forcibly taken, you will resurrect your foe. Harry could do nothing to prevent it. He was tied too tightly. Squinting down, struggling hopelessly at the ropes binding him, he saw the shining, sliver dagger shaking in Wormtail’s remaining hand. He felt its point penetrate the crook of his right arm and blood seeping down the sleeve of his torn robes. Wormtail, still panting with pain, fumbled in his pocket for a glass vial and held it to Harry’s cut so that a dripple of blood fell into it.” So my main thoughts here, basically, is that this is the blood that’s going to be used to recreate Voldemort. And the birthing… sex itself is this exchange of fluids. And I don’t want to get graphic, but the fact is [that] Voldemort steals Harry’s blood by way of Wormtail, and then earlier he implants a piece of his soul inside of Harry unknowing[ly]. So there’s been a transfer of spirit and soul between Harry and Voldemort that it takes seven books to really unravel and work out, but my idea here was that if in this scene Voldemort is using Wormtail as a substitute here to penetrate Harry in a way, it’s just sort of weird. And that made me think of the piece of soul inside Harry – of course, the Horcrux – as something a little bit more. What form does it take when it leaves Harry at the end of the last book? It’s a baby, and I was thinking, “Well, if what if Voldemort spiritually inseminated Harry, and that is why it takes the form of this baby?”And the feminine element that recreates Voldemort in this scene comes from Harry. And it’s his mother. It’s Lily’s love. So Tom Riddle is the father, and Lilly is essentially the mother, and Voldemort is stealing Harry’s mother for his own recreation ceremony.
Michael: Yeah, I think this a good and valid interpretation of this section because the chapter does make clear that this… the feeling that I get when reading this is that Voldemort has performed an extreme violation of Harry by doing what he does.
Noah: Right.
Jennifer: And a violation of nature, really. [laughs]
Noah: Yes. And of nature’s laws in general, definitely. Well, and I…
Jennifer: Magic laws, even.
Noah: Yeah. Yeah. The laws we know of. The really big thing that we get of in Harry Potter is that messing with life and death in a big no-no in magic.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: That magic…
Noah: And it seems like one of those scenes, definitely.
Michael: Yeah, and I think why I consider this is valid as well [is] because I think the movie… and we’ll go into this a little later with the film special, but the movie definitely takes this tack. Especially in that scene, which is… it’s so awkward to watch, but it’s… I clearly…
Noah: “I can touch you now”?
Michael: Yeah, Ralph Fiennes was clearly intending it with that scene…
Jennifer: Ugh.
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: … with the choice he made. Because I know Mike Newell gave him a lot of liberty with what he wanted to do, and that scene, yeah, where he touches Harry’s scar is so uncomfortable to watch and the screaming that happens.
Noah: And they’re all screaming? Yeah, I’m picturing it now. But I think that’s part of his creepiness.
Michael: Yeah.
Jennifer: Definitely.
Noah: It all goes to play.
Jennifer: And he literally gets inside of you. I mean, he’s not just this outside force that’s acting you. He’s almost just coming from the inside out, which makes him that much more terrifying.
Michael: Yeah.
Noah: And then later, Harry, just the way he confronts Voldemort… it’s this weird I’m-confronting… I’m-a-victim-of-somebody-who-has-really-deeply-offended-me-and-my… obviously, killing his parents, but at the end of the day, this is just a theory that I constructed just from ideas and my sense of reading the book, and everyone has different interpretations of it but…
Michael: And Noah?
Noah: Yeah?
Michael: What’s the title of that so that our listeners can maybe be directed to that on the MuggleNet main site?
Noah: Yeah, it’s “The Figurative Rape of Harry Potter.” I really struggled with the title because “rape”… it’s such a harsh word. But it really goes to what I’m trying to convey of this theory.
Michael: Yeah.
Noah: But I’ll post it in the forums somewhere.
Michael: And like I said, because that choice is very consciously taken by the filmmakers in this scene, I think that’s a totally valid interpretation of looking at this because I think we are meant to feel that Harry has been violated in his personal space and his body.
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: It’s very extreme. It’s still just amazing to me what an extreme jump we take from last chapter to this one…
Jennifer: Yeah.
Rosie: Mhm.
Michael: … of like, “Oh, fun and magic! Oh, the world’s upside down, and there'[re] Skrewts and spiders and all the things you’ve seen before” and then suddenly it’s this.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Noah: I mean, we even have an Unforgiveable Curse in the last chapter, too.
Jennifer and Michael: Yeah.
Noah: But we’re almost used to that at this point.
Michael: Yeah, casual…
Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, suddenly, in this chapter…
Rosie: This is a whole other level of unforgivable.
Jennifer: Exactly. And he sees a death unfold before him again with an Unforgivable Curse being used, and then he has this… it’s his first real, in my opinion, interaction with Voldemort as more of an adult, where now Voldemort is not on the back of someone’s head or coming to him in visions. This is him in the flesh, and he’s having to face him as a foe, and that’s really, I think, a big turning point of how you see what Harry will become in the future books and what Voldemort is becoming as well.
Michael: Yeah, it’s definitely… I think that is a great point to bring up because of the… what makes Voldemort so frightening in this scene, versus previous encounters, is that Sorcerer’s Stone, Voldemort is on the back of someone’s head. The person whose head he’s on is not very bright…
[Jennifer laughs]
Michael: … and can be outwitted.
Noah: Oh, yes.
Michael: And when Harry encounters Voldemort again as Tom Riddle and as a teenager, he only has so much knowledge as a teenager, and he’s limited in his abilities.
Jennifer: Right.
Michael: So once again, he can be outsmarted.
Rosie: And I think that’s what this book has really been about. I mean, we’ve had this whole tournament where he is the young child who shouldn’t have been entered into this world, battling against these older, more experienced people who have every right to be winning this tournament over him. And in this sequence we see Voldemort being turned from a baby – from a child – into a formidable adult foe, and we can see the journey that Harry has been on in this book and follow that through in the future to see that Harry needs to become the adult at this moment to match up to the growing foe…
Jennifer: Right.
Rosie: … that is Voldemort.
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: He needs to become the adult after this.
Jennifer: And it fits with both of their lives in the sense that they both had an absence of childhood to some degree. I mean, I think Harry, despite having the Dursleys not being wonderful caretakers, at least they were constant.
Rosie: Yeah.
Jennifer: And I think that, probably, he definitely had a leg up on Voldemort in terms of his upbringing just by having that versus the relative chaos of an orphanage, but they both, throughout their lives, had to go from, really, infancy to being on their own very quickly, and now we’re seeing that unfold again in the course of just one chapter.
Michael and Rosie: Mhm.
Michael: Yeah. And Jen, you also had a another great point about what’s going on with this ceremony.
Jennifer: Right. It struck me in reading this how much it reminded me a bit of some of the elements of what you might see at Communion or other kinds of religious ceremonies where there’s this representation of eating something. The body of Christ, or the blood, and seeing this actually happen in a very literal sense here of seeing a resurrection spring out of this giving of flesh and blood. That certainly jumped out at me when I was reading this.
Noah: Yeah, I mean, more specifically, it’s Harry’s blood.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Noah: So in a way that makes him the Jesus figure.
Jennifer: Which is consistent with other themes in the book.
Michael: Oh, yeah.
Noah: Yeah.
Jennifer: Definitely.
Michael: I’ve read a lot of critics of the Harry Potter series who have been… I know there’s one… the nostalgia chick who does videos… and she talks a lot about her feelings on the Harry Potter films, and she frequently shows the clip of Hagrid saying, “You’re a wizard, Harry,” and she always overdubs it with “You’re a Jesus figure, Harry.”
[Jennifer and Michael laugh]
Michael: And it… and Rowling has said that there are parallels to the Christ story. Of course…
Jennifer: The Chosen One.
Michael: Yeah, and we get that very…
Rosie: There always are in every single book when you’ve got someone who is the savior…
Jennifer: Right. [laughs] Yeah.
Rosie: … and antagonists. It’s impossible to get away from.
Michael: Well, and Harry even goes through a resurrection in Deathly Hallows. I think Deathly Hallows is a little more forward in its mirroring of the Christ story, but…
Rosie: Does that make Voldemort Antichrist?
Jennifer: Yeah.
Rosie: He goes through a resurrection and things, too.
Noah: Yeah.
Jennifer: Interesting. I suppose he would, then.
Noah: Now, as Rowling said this, does she…? She says that the Harry Potter series reflects her own personal beliefs and doctrine, but I feel like she said that it isn’t explicitly…
Rosie: Yeah.
Noah: … a Biblical story.
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: And it doesn’t… you don’t need to apply Christianity to the story.
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: It can work without it.
Michael: I mean, it’s…
Jennifer: These are common themes throughout religious history.
Michael and Rosie: Yeah.
Jennifer: No matter what. As you said…
Rosie: Yeah. It doesn’t have to be Christianity.
Jennifer: No.
Rosie: It can be anything else, and it would still work.
Michael: Yeah, it’s a more… because I would say the same thing when I was a kid about the Narnia series because I didn’t read it that way…
Jennifer and Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: … but it’s clearly, clearly meant to be read that way.
Jennifer: That was much more intentional.
Michael: Yeah.
Jennifer: Yes. Right?
Michael: Yes, exactly. There was definitely a lot more intent behind that. So yeah, it’s maybe, perhaps… because I think a lot of that analysis on that comes more from Deathly Hallows for a lot of people, but…
Jennifer: Right.
Michael: … perhaps we’re getting that here already in Goblet of Fire.
Jennifer: At this point we’re not sure who went out, really, between who wanted to take that parallel between the Antichrist and Christ.
Michael: Yeah, yeah.
Rosie: And what importance do you think you can put on the fact that we have this rebirthing, this resurrection of Voldemort, and what’s he look like? A snake.
Michael: A snake.
Noah: Yes.
Michael: Voldemort.
Jennifer: Always.
Rosie: Always a snake.
Michael: Voldemort emerges from the cauldron, and we get our first full, adult-bodied, physical appearance of Voldemort in the series, and it is absolutely terrifying.
Rosie: I always forget about the red eyes.
Michael: Yeah.
Noah: Mhm.
Michael: Yeah, it’s a great distinctive feature. I was sad to see those go in the movie.
Rosie: Mhm.
Michael: I understand why, but it is a nice touch, definitely, in the books. This snake… and what I thought was interesting about that is that this resurrection into an adult body, Voldemort ostensively, because he’s rebuilding his body pretty much from scratch, who’s to say that he couldn’t have made a body that would’ve been a bit more normal and handsome like he used to be?
Rosie: He doesn’t want that. He did it deliberately.
Michael: Yeah, and that’s why I think it’s interesting is that he choose…
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: … to make this very…
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: … horrifying image to come back as, and he’s still clearly incomplete.
Rosie: Wants to be feared.
Michael: Yeah. It’s… he’s still not back as a complete human. That he’s chosen to mesh his appearance with a snake.
Jennifer: “With hands like spiders,” I think they said, too.
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: Mhm.
Michael: That’s terrifying.
Jennifer: It sounds extra creepy.
Rosie: It’s all those extra fears.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Michael: But Voldemort keeps things simple and just simply says “Robe me,” and we won’t hear much more from him until next week in the next chapter.
[Rosie laughs]
Noah: And now everyone, it is time for the Podcast Question of the Week, and this week I want to ask a question about the potion that Voldemort is placed in, his rebirthing potion. We don’t really know a lot about it. It’s certainly unique in the series, so for next week, I’d love it if people could give us comments about what exactly this potion is. Is it related to the Horcruxes in any way? Is it an offshoot, perhaps, of other potions that we know of? What other ingredients do you think go into the making of this potion? Really, anything about wbat the potential origin story of this potion could be. We’d love to hear your comments, and we’ll read them on the next show.
Rosie: Well, great. All that remains to be done is to thank Jen, who was a brilliant guest this week. Thank you so much for being on.
Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me. This was a lot of fun.
Michael: Yeah, you had a lot of great insight, Jen. Thank you very much. And if you, the listeners, would like to be on the show like Jen and join us on our Portkey-ing adventures… don’t worry…
[Jennifer laughs]
Michael: … we’re good at the Protego spell, so you will not be Avada Kedavra-ed. To find out how you can be on the show, head over to our website and check out the “Be on the Show” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. Please just make sure [to] have appropriate audio recording equipment because we cannot take a good Portkey journey without a good microphone on this show.
Noah: Hmm, very true. And if you’d like to get in contact with us, you can follow us on Twitter at @AlohomoraMN. You can also [follow us] on Facebook [at] facebook.com/openthedumbledore. Our number is 206-GO-ALBUS (206-462-5287). Subscribe to us on iTunes [and] leave us reviews so that other podcast cruisers can find us. You can also follow us on Snapchat at mn_alohomora. And we’ve got some awesome Snapchats there – every single week, Michael Platco comes up with different snaps that are related to the reading material. And you can also leave us an Audioboo. Leave us a message directly on alohomora.mugglenet.com and it can be played on the show. It’s free and all you need is a microphone.
Rosie: And don’t forget we’ve also got our store where you can find loads of T-shirts – short and long sleeved – tote bags, sweatshirts, flip-flops, water bottles, travel mugs, and much more coming soon. There [are] over 80 products to choose from, so there’s really not an excuse not to buy anything.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Rosie: You can also find ringtones of our fabulous theme tune, and they are free on our site.
Michael: And we also have an app for those of you who find yourself in a graveyard or in other bizarre situations and you need more knowledge on the magical world. Our app is luckily available seemingly worldwide. Prices vary depending on your location. Our app includes transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and possibly advice on how to get yourself out of a situation with Voldemort.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: So make sure [to] check that out because you may need it. You never know.
Noah: And I also wanted to let the listeners know that we are on Tumblr. There is an Alohomora! Tumblr account. The exact address is mnalohomorapodcast.tumblr.com, and I’m really excited about this because I have recently taken it over…
[Jennifer laughs]
Noah: … and I’m going to be blogging from Jim the Dementor, the Desk!Pig, and the Mandrake Liberation Front’s point of view as they go on adventures around Hogwarts. So…
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: So make sure you’re liking and reblogging those posts.
Noah: Right, right. The idea is that we can really get a narrative going and make it feel like these characters are real and at Hogwarts, and of course they are, so just follow us there.
Michael: And speaking of characters who are real, if you listeners have yet to check out the Wizolympics event going on over at mugglenet.com, make sure [to] do that. A lot of the Alohomora! team is involved in getting those broadcasts over to you from the Wizarding Wireless Network. So that will do it for this episode, Episode 70 of Alohomora! We Hufflepuffs and our Ravenclaw are going to go find a way out of this graveyard.
[Jennifer and Noah laugh]
Michael: But thank you for joining us on this episode of Alohomora!
[Show music begins]
Michael: I’m Michael Harle.
Noah: I’m Noah Fried.
Rosie: And I’m Rosie Morris. Thank you for listening to Episode 70 of Alohomora!
Noah: [in a shrill voice] Open the Dumbledore!
[Show music continues]
Michael: The Alohomora! team wanted to make sure [to] thank GoldenSnidget7 for this beautiful Audioboo that you sent us. It is an interpretation of the “Hogwarts’ March” from the Goblet of Fire film, which we so love as you listeners might know. But GoldenSnidget7 performed the song on an oboe and we wanted to make sure [to] share that with all of you.
[An oboe version of “Hogwarts’ March” plays]
