Transcript – Episode 180
[Show music begins]
Eric Scull: This is Episode 180 of Alohomora! for March 5, 2016.
[Show music continues]
Eric: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another magical episode of Alohomora! I’m Eric Scull.
Kat Miller: I’m Kat Miller.
Caleb Graves: And I’m Caleb Graves. And we want to welcome our special guest host for this week, Jessica. Jessica, say hello to all the listeners out there.
Jessica McCann: Hi.
Caleb: Well, we’re super glad to have you here with us. Tell us a little bit about yourself; your House and anything else interesting.
Jessica: Okay. Well, I’m a Slytherin.
Kat: Oh.
Jessica: So that’s exciting because I know you guys don’t usually have Slytherins on the show. [laughs]
Eric: It’s just going to be…
Kat: Eric, if you take Hufflepuff, we’ll have the quad this week.
Caleb and Eric: Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah, so it’s weird because when they put up the test again, I had to take it again just to see what would happen, even though I’m pretty sure that my House is Slytherin. But the second time I took the test I got Ravenclaw. So that’s interesting. I wasn’t expecting that.
Kat: I find those Houses often go hand in hand, to be honest.
Jessica: Yeah, it makes sense to me. And I really like my wand. It’s rowan wood with a phoenix feather and 11 and 3/4. Reasonably supple.
Kat: Nice.
[Eric and Jessica laugh]
Jessica: Hey!
Eric: I love… no, I love the reasonably… It’s well-reasoned.
[Jessica laughs]
Eric: There are… yeah. I don’t know. It pulls its own. I don’t really know.
Jessica: Yeah, I know. It’s just the word “reasonably” that is funny.
Eric and Kat: Yeah.
Jessica: But so I’m actually a professional ballet dancer.
Caleb: Oh!
Kat: Really?
Eric: Wow!
Caleb: Very cool.
Jessica: Yes, I am.
Eric: So you weren’t lying when we clapped to sync our tracks.
[Jessica laughs]
Eric: You’re pretty good with your body.
[Eric and Jessica laugh]
Jessica: Yeah. No, I just got out of rehearsal where we were doing… it was a ballet where we’re doing hand clapping and stuff, and so I thought that was pretty funny.
Eric: Oh. That’s perfect.
Kat: Are you with a company right now or…?
Jessica: Yeah, I’m with the Pittsburgh Ballet Theatre.
Kat: Oh!
Jessica: If you go on their website you can see me in the corps online. My photo.
Eric: [singing to the tune of “Oklahoma”] Pennsylvania!
Jessica: Yup, but so I…
Eric: “Where the wind comes sweeping through the trees…”
[Jessica laughs]
Eric: Sorry, it’s my home state, too.
Jessica: Oh, really? I’m actually from California.
Eric: Oh.
Jessica: So moving here was like, “Oh. This is what weather’s like.”
[Caleb and Eric laugh]
Eric: Well, it’s funny you’re sort of between the two homes [and] the Houses of Ravenclaw and Slytherin. I was about to say, “This is going to be a lonely chapter for you in Slytherin,” [laughs] but it’s also a pretty good Ravenclaw chapter so I don’t know.
Jessica: Yeah. I’m excited, though. I have a few things to say about Slytherin, definitely, but.. so my Harry Potter story real quick: I have relatives in England, and they got me and my sister the first two Harry Potter books when the second book came out. And I hated reading, and so I hid it under my bed and I probably didn’t read it for at least a year, and then I found the books again and I started reading them. And I fell in love with them and I remember seeing the first movie, not in the theaters, but I think my parents bought it for me and my sister to see. And Voldemort’s face at the end of the movie scarred me. I remember just holding a pillow and hiding my face. It was so scary to me that I didn’t really…
I wasn’t really into it then. And then I remember hearing friends talk about that the Chamber of Secrets was out in theaters, and I was not interested. But between the second movie and when Prisoner came out in 2004, I got pretty obsessed with the books, which got me really obsessed with the online craze going on because I wanted to know more information, and then that got me obsessed with all the actors of the movies and stuff. And I used to role play a lot, so I feel really connected to specific characters because I would go on forums and I would just do this really crazy literate roleplaying where it was as if we were writing our own version of a book of Harry Potter that hadn’t come out yet. So it was so fun. I would always play Draco Malfoy…
[Eric and Jessica laugh]
Jessica: … and then I would always play Harry, too. I would always go on the forum and claim Harry. I don’t why I like playing guys, but… and if I got the opportunity, I would play all three of the trio. It would be…
Eric: Oh, that’d be cool.
Jessica: It was really fun.
Kat: Sounds like it was a very slippery slope for you. [laughs]
Jessica: [laughs] What? Like I just fell into the obsession?
Kat: Yeah, you just jumped right on the train and you were out of there. Yep.
Jessica: Yeah.
Kat: It’s good, though.
Jessica: It was a poison. It’s amazing, and I was all over MuggleNet.
Eric: Well, it’s always nice to hear that. Gosh, that takes me back, though, that story. I used to role play as Sirius and Lupin.
Jessica: Yes. Oh.
Eric: Back in chat rooms. I was never on any forums for it…
Jessica: That’s so cool.
Eric: … but back in chat rooms when those were… when AOL was still a thing. [laughs]
Jessica: I know. Yeah.
Kat: Wow! It feels two lifetimes ago.
Jessica: And I used to… I know.
Eric: Yeah.
Jessica: It’s a whole ten years ago. It’s crazy.
Eric: Mhm.
Jessica: I’m a whole different person now. It’s weird, but…
[Eric laughs]
Jessica: [laughs] It feels like that, right? If you think back ten years…
Eric: Yeah.
Jessica: … what you were doing ten years ago and who you were as a person.
Kat: Mhm. Indeed.
Eric: Yep. But we’re delighted to have you in this present incarnation with us here on Alohomora!
Jessica: [laughs] Thank you. Yeah, I felt like it was something that I had to do, like an homage to my younger self.
[Eric laughs]
Jessica: I was like, “I need to be on this [laughs] Harry Potter podcast.” I listen to it all the time.
Eric: [in an announcer voice] This episode of Alohomora! is dedicated to Jessica’s younger self.
Jessica: [laughs] Yes!
Kat: We made it in just in time because we’re getting close to the end.
Eric:: [laughs] That’s true.
Jessica: I know. I was like, “I need to just pluck up the courage and do it.”
Kat: Yeah.
Jessica: And I’m so glad that I did it because I’m really excited to be here.
Kat: Good. Happy to have you.
Caleb: Definitely.
Jessica: Yay!
Caleb: And before we move forward, we want to remind everyone that for this week, we’re going to be discussing Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Chapter 29, “The Lost Diadem,” so make sure you read that before we get into the chapter discussion.
Eric: And in order to give you all time to go read that chapter…
[Eric and Kat laugh]
Eric: … here we are talking about last week’s chapter discussion, which happened on last week’s Alohomora! 179, and it was about the chapter “The Missing Mirror” if I’m remembering correctly. So our first comment comes from IGotTransfiguredintoa Rhubarb who says, in response to the very well-praised discussion last week had by all of the hosts,
“There are a lot of parallels with autism and [Ariana]. I certainly praise Michael for talking about his brother, Charlie. I do also see a lot of parallels with multiple sclerosis. Like J.K. Rowling, I too also have a parent with MS, and I also had a grandparent who was in a hospital with MS, because my mum was no longer able to care for her. Like autism, MS also has a spectrum of varying types, but have several particular traits in common. Anxiety, panic attacks, and depression to name a few. Like Dumbledore, I had to grow up quickly to help my mum look after my dad and protect my brothers and sister when my dad was having a meltdown and outbursts of violent rage. I certainly don’t hate Dumbledore for wanting to escape. It’s a huge shoulder of responsibility taking care of a disabled relative. I think J.K. depicts Dumbledore as a human being, who had no choice to grow up quickly and face putting his life on hold. I had to, and I expect she had to as well. It’s a big decision to make. It’s left me with a tough skin, and high expectations of people to just get on with it and do a job. I didn’t have time to discover myself, and the only way I could do that was by breaking away. I still have the tough skin, but I know who I am now.”
Kat: Wow. Thank you for sharing that with us. That’s… wow.
Eric: Thank you very much. Yeah.
Jessica: Makes a lot of sense.
Eric: Right, and I think just combing through the comments, too, people were very moved and had nothing but praise for the discussion that happened on last week’s Alohomora!, and it’s always very pleasant when we can reach that sort of harmonic point with everybody where we just have a really well hashed-out discussion. It’s very rewarding for us to see an episode that was received as well as that one was.
Kat: I feel like personally… I actually have a really hard time commenting on Ariana because I, personally, haven’t had any experiences with disabled people, really. There’s… besides Charlie, I don’t know anybody who has a relative. So personally, for me, while I understand where this whole argument is coming from and all the parallels between autism and Ariana, for me, I just have a hard time understanding it. But I always try to. I always listen to it and try to understand where it’s all coming from. So…
Eric: But I think we have a lot of respect for those who are dealing with this on a daily basis. It’s really nice to find that in the Harry Potter books there are characters that touch people. I mean, we knew this from day one of reading it for ourselves, but so many different characters and so many different reasons for touching the readers and seeing that Ariana represented something so powerful to all these people.
Jessica: Mhm.
Caleb: I think what makes it really effective with the way Jo does it – and I think this comment really captures it, and Michael talked about it – is it’s just… she writes it in a very real way. We don’t just see a very basic representation of what disability can be because that’s just not possible to do; it’s just such a complex thing. We see Ariana unravel over this whole book, what her actual story is when we finally get it toward the end of the book, and see how it affects not just Albus but also Aberforth, and how it just really is a thing that people really struggle with in really different ways on really different levels, and it’s good that it can speak to people that way.
Eric: We have a comment now from Have a biscuit, Lupin. [laughs] Love these usernames.
Jessica: That’s amazing.
Eric: And this is on the ever cheery mysterious subject of Aberforth and the goats, which finally got the discussion that it deserved on last week’s episode, also. So the comment is,
“I think that Aberforth was always very lonely as a child, and that goats were his only company. As an adult, he had to deal with the death of his sister and the successes of his brother – he was still in the shadow of his family and lonely. I have always imagined that Aberforth tried to charm the goats to give them greater intelligence…”
Huh.
”… so that they could talk with him, so that they could really be his friends. Aberforth is such a gentle person and I’ve kind of seen this as more consistent with his character – although it would also be natural that assumptions would be made by other characters. I also think that doing something like this would have to be illegal in the magical world, so it explains his imprisonment as well.”
Jessica: What?
Eric: Boom. Somebody… a lovely reader, Have a biscuit, Lupin, has stepped in and presented a non-sexual alternative for what Aberforth could have been doing with the goats.
[Jessica and Kat laugh]
Jessica: Oh, God.
Kat: But I mean, did they have goats? The Dumbledores?
Eric: Well…
Jessica: Yeah, didn’t they? In their backyard or something?
Eric: They did. Yeah, in the previous chapter Aberforth was talking about how he and Ariana would feed the goats.
Kat: Oh. Okay.
Eric: So I think they… the Dumbledores had a couple of goats at their homestead…
Kat: Their house.
Eric: … now I’m just thinking of it as a ranch. [laughs] But they had some goats, so they were definitely present, but… I actually like this comment a lot for the fact that it is vague. We don’t know. And I do believe that trying to imbue an animal with near human intelligence would probably have to be against a law, or two, or three. So yeah, I don’t know. I support this. I think it’s a little odd and delightful, as a result of that.
Kat: Which is kind of Aberforth, right?
Eric: Odd and delightful? Yeah.
Kat: I mean, I’m not sure I’d use delightful, but definitely odd.
Eric: [laughs] Well, and I… as for the first part of the comment that states that he was probably very lonely and in the shadow, and would’ve looked toward the goats for some emotional companionship, that’s an… yeah, it’s just an interesting… Aberforth continues to be such an interesting character, and [in] this previous chapter he serves a very specific function as sort of calling into question his brother and all this other stuff, but him as a person is still one of those great mysteries. There’s a lot about him that I was really looking forward to seeing on Pottermore.
Kat: I see this being actually really plausible because if the goats were a family pet… everybody’s close to their family pets – I mean, unless they don’t like them – but clearly Aberforth likes the goats, so…
Eric: [laughs] Yeah. No, I agree. And look, I think all that was ever said in the books was “for practicing illegal charms on a goat.”
Kat: Right.
Eric: That could be anything.
Kat: And of course, because we’re all disgusting humans, we took that as a sexual thing.
Eric: [laughs] Constantly in the gutter.
Kat: Yep.
Eric: We just don’t know. But it’s funny; I mean, I think at one point Dumbledore himself uses it as a punch line. In fact, yeah, that’s where that quote comes from.
Kat: Mhm.
Eric: I think he’s talking about it at a dinner party or something, so if he can talk about it in a public setting it mustn’t be all that bad.
Kat: Right.
Jessica: That’s interesting, though because I never thought… I never once thought, “Oh, he probably charmed them to have more intelligence so that he can talk to them because he’s a lonely kid who loves his animals.” And normal people, they… I mean, I’m not crazy. I talk to animals sometimes, too, right? People usually do that; when you’re close to an animal you just talk to them and pretend that they can respond or hear you. But that’s interesting to think that he went a step further and gave them intelligence to communicate back in a way.
Kat: Mhm. I constantly wish my cats could talk back to me.
Jessica: That would be amazing.
Eric: Although… [laughs] now that we’re talking about this… also, yes, Kat, I wish your cats could talk, too.
[Jessica and Kat laugh]
Eric: But there’s this quote from Albus that I just found. It requires a source, but it’s from Wikia, where it’s called into question whether or not Aberforth could even read. Do you remember this? [laughs]
Kat: Yes.
Jessica: Oh my God, I remember that.
Eric: Do you remember when he says he’s not sure his brother could even read?
Jessica: Yes.
Eric: Let’s see… here’s the quote: “My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No, he did not! He held his head high and went about his business as usual! Of course, I’m not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery.” Taking into the context of Book 7 now, and especially the last chapter – the heavy discussion that Aberforth had with Harry and the whole trio – I’m actually… I think it’s easy to be offended [laughs] by that quote from Dumbledore in retrospect, right? Because I think that we all think that Aberforth can read…
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: … and is certainly much more intelligent than Albus was giving him credit for. I realize it was a joke, but I think it cheapens who Aberforth is as a person now that we’re getting to know him a little bit better.
Kat: I’m a firm believer that even when you’re joking about something, a small part of you believes what you’re saying.
Jessica: Yeah. I believe that, too.
Eric: Mhm.
Kat: So I do believe that he probably, somewhere deep down, could have possibly thought that, even a little bit.
Eric: [laughs] So it’s Dumbledore’s own superiority complex showing through.
Jessica: Right, to his younger brother.
Kat: Not uncommon. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, well, especially regarding siblings.
Jessica: Yeah, definitely.
Eric: And our third comment comes from the username ThatTimeRemusWaddiwasiedVoldy. [laughs]
Kat: That’s a good one. I love saying Waddiwasi.
Eric: Waddiwasi! You’re right, that is fun. I need to do that more often. And the comment is,
“I don’t think this is a ‘test of faith’ in the typical sense on Aberforth’s part.”
Meaning the conversation.
“I read this conversation as his attempt to determine if Harry is merely blindly following Albus’[s] orders without knowing the full scope of things, or if Harry actually believes in the course of action set forth by Albus. He wants to know that Harry has had doubts, and in turn, reason enough to overcome those doubts. Aberforth gives Harry more information, the truth behind Albus’[s] story so that Harry can put the pieces together himself, in hopes that he makes as fully informed a decision as possible. He wants to know that Harry is proceeding because Harry himself believes it is right to do so, knowing full well the potential dangers, not just out of blind willingness ‘because Dumbledore said so’. As the hosts discussed, Aberforth has good reason for his misgivings. If he is to commit to aiding Harry in the battle that lies ahead, he needs Harry to give him good reason as to why he should put his own faith in Harry. To me, he isn’t just asking why Harry should trust in Dumbledore, but also why he, Aberforth, should trust in Harry.”
Kat: I think that is such a good point.
Eric: I love this comment. This is great.
Kat: Me, too because Aberforth comes with a predetermined set of… a bias, basically, against Dumbledore and anything that he says, thinks, feels, does, whatever… so once he finds out that Harry is acting on Albus’s word, I think it’s very natural for him to want to suss out Harry’s true intentions here. I think that’s a really great point.
Jessica: Right. Mhm.
Eric: And again, it’s a testament to Aberforth’s intelligence. I mean, he’s really getting to the bottom of this guy, and making sure that Harry knows what it is that he’s doing.
Caleb: I see this scene so differently. I just never saw it as a scene of Aberforth testing Harry. I just always saw it as Aberforth genuinely thinking [that] Albus did Harry wrong and there’s no reason that Harry should be following through with his plans. He needs to get away. And then Aberforth coming later to help him, I feel, is Aberforth coming to terms with his own emotions, feeling like he finally does need to step in despite his bitterness over his relationship with Albus. So I think it’s a well thought out comment; I just always see this scene so differently.
Eric: Well, I think with the history that Aberforth has, he has been helping – Dumbledore’s Army, for instance – all this time. Harry points out in the previous chapter [that] he’s in the Order of the Phoenix. He’s already pretty committed, in spite of how he feels about his brother, to helping and the good cause and all of that. I think you like him more if you see this scene as sort of a test versus… I mean, it is an opportunity either way for him to shout and spout out about why he doesn’t love his brother or why he doesn’t like his brother, and it’s a really important info dump for us as readers who never got this story before. But I think also, I do see it as sort of really getting to the bottom [and] making sure Harry knows what he’s doing.
Kat: What do we think Aberforth did for the Order? Because we don’t really know, do we?
Jessica: I thought it was weird how he kept under the radar. I wonder why he did that.
Eric: He was definitely spying. And he doesn’t necessarily need to leave his place of business to do that. If you’ll recall, there were a couple of times – I think even in Book 1 with Hagrid and the dragon egg – that essentially they… think of it as a Shrieking Shack thing, where Dumbledore put a lot of effort into giving that building its bad reputation. And I think that probably Aberforth and Albus worked to build the reputation of the Hog’s Head as a less reputable pub, where darker people – under the watchful eye of Aberforth – would naturally be drawn to.
Kat: Wouldn’t that be really difficult, to be a spy in his own pub, though? Think about it: a Death Eater comes in, or two Death Eaters. They sit down and they’re having a Firewhisky and they’re talking about some evil plan. Okay? So Aberforth relays that information to the Order, and the Order acts on it. Wouldn’t they find out pretty quickly that Aberforth was a leak?
Eric: I’m not sure…
Jessica: Right, how else would their plans have been known?
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: Well, there’s evidence in the Snape situation with the Prophecy with Trelawney. Aberforth caught Snape listening at the keyhole, right? And I’d also argue that he’s very careful with what information he would lead off of. For instance, a teacher at the school having a dragon [is] obviously very important, but in the previous chapter he yells at the other Death Eaters talking about their…
Kat: Illegal potions or something, right? Or poisons, yeah.
Eric: … illegal potions, yeah. He completely allows illegal activity in his pub, and I think that’s what earns him the trust. He basically is only… he’s holding out and looking for the most terrible, actionable items. He’s… well, we know that Aberforth is kind of wishy-washy with the law himself. So I think that that really works in his favor.
Jessica: Plus it’s good because it lets him have something on them, just in case he needs that.
Eric and Kat: Yeah.
Kat: A little blackmail.
Jessica: Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like blackmail. Exactly.
Eric: And because his hands aren’t entirely clean, he’s sort of the perfect guy to do that sort of job. Yeah, my guess is, I don’t think he ever really traveled abroad for the Order. I just imagine he is… very few people know he’s Dumbledore’s brother, which is a super good disguise or… that’s a good fact. And he’s just the barman at this less than reputable pub.
Kat: Which I still find a little unbelievable, that very few people know he’s Dumbledore’s brother – I mean, Albus’s brother – because they look similar, as has been pointed out numerous times.
Eric and Jessica: Yeah.
Eric: I don’t know. It’s so interesting. I think that with Dumbledore it’s just that he has this aura [pronounces it “are-a”] about him… aura? Is that the right word?
Jessica: Aura?
Eric: Aura? Yeah, aura. I keep wanting to say “Auror.” That’s not…
[Jessica and Kat laugh]
Caleb: I mean… yeah, it can be said either way. I say “aura,” [pronounces it “or-a”] so…
Eric: He has this “Auror” about him.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Straight from the Aurors’ Office. When Dumbledore is in a room, it’s Dumbledore and everybody knows there’s Dumbledore, and there’s probably a crowd, right? And people… I think it’s all in body language and how they carry themselves, honestly. Because even if they were both still alive and in the same room, but didn’t know that they were in the same room with each other, they would look completely different in how they’re carrying themselves. I don’t know. I think something as simple as body language could be a complete… what’s disguising the public from realizing that. Plus, you wouldn’t think that the brother of the most powerful wizard in the world would be just some barman hanging out at a bar.
Jessica: That’s true.
Kat: I suppose that’s true.
Eric: Hiding in plain sight.
Jessica: He’s just hunched over and hiding his face the whole time.
[Eric and Jessica laugh]
Jessica: Serving drinks like, “Here you go.”
Eric: It does have… there’s some long, stringy… yeah, long, silver stringy hair in front of his face, so there you go.
Jessica: And his cloak.
Eric: Well, that does conclude our comments on our chapter discussion from last episode. Definitely the discussion is still continuing over on our Alohomora! main site and our forums as well, so definitely go check that out. And many more comments could not be included due to time, but thank you all for writing and [to those] who were having a discussion.
Kat: So I guess now we’ll move on to our Podcast Question of the Week responses from last week. Before we jump into those, let me just remind you real quick of the question:
”This is the chapter where the final pieces of Dumbledore’s story come to light, thanks to candid reveals by Aberforth. Aberforth and Harry represent the two extremes of belief in Dumbledore; was he a puppet master, sacrificing lives for the ‘greater good,’ or did Dumbledore and the meaning of the ‘greater good’ evolve into something more enlightened? How has your personal view of Dumbledore evolved from your initial read to now?”
Our first comment here comes from Crimson Phoenix, and it says,
“I don’t think Dumbledore’s meaning of the ‘greater good’ ever really changed or evolved. I think Dumbledore himself and his situations have changed, but I think his main stance has stayed the same. We see Aberforth’s definition for his brother’s ‘greater good’ as a failed ideology that resulted in the traumatic death of a sister he was much closer to than Albus ever was. And we see Harry’s mentor’s ‘greater good’ as ultimately finding peace for the Wizarding World through noble sacrifice and doing what must be done. I think Harry’s perception of Albus’[s] stance is closer to the true nature of Albus’[s] will. He always made sure that there was a balance between the necessity of control and the free will of others. For example, he was aware of the responsibilities of the wizards over the Muggles if wizards were to ever come to power, and he knew that he had to let Harry test his strength just enough to learn what he needed to learn without dying in the process. The older he grew and the more experience was added, the more he changed and grew as a person. But I think that one ideology has been the driving force throughout his life.”
Eric: I think it’s very interesting. This is definitely a question of perspective, and first of all, for us to say, “Okay, these characters [are] at opposite ends of it,” and then have Crimson Phoenix talk about each of their perspectives, I think it was very insightful. I really like this comment.
Kat: It’s interesting to say that while Dumbledore’s meaning of the “greater good” never really changed, he himself changed in the situations that he was going through, that his life had gone through, which I think is probably pretty true.
Caleb: Yeah, I think that’s true because then it makes more sense that him trying to work a “greater good” later in his life with Harry… it still has some really problematic elements to it, similar to how he was in the beginning with Grindelwald. While he knew there was a responsibility to make it not be [a] terrible outcome, there was always that risk. And similarly with Harry, that’s a problem and a risk.
Kat: Yeah, there was a big discussion last week about, “Is it okay for a few lives to die for the greater good?” And I thought that was a really good conversation. Do you guys have thoughts on that? I mean, I know we’ve talked about it a little bit, but…
Eric: It’s actually super funny because there’s a “Dear Hogwarts” letter out today, from Harry, where it talks about that. It’s really timely. I mean, I think that it ultimately has to be okay or acceptable. In the real world, there have to be sacrifices. Ultimately, not any one side in any protracted conflict is going to get away scot-free and completely without death. And I think that there is and has always been a place for martyrs and sacrifice in the line of what is good and what is true, and pure.
Kat: I mean, the board game is not called Risk for no reason, right?
Eric: Right. It’s ultimately [that] death is a part of life, and war unfortunately is also a part of the same thing. So I do think honestly that now the difference between what Harry is having done to him by Albus is that it becomes a question of: Okay, you’re sacrificing people, but are they consciously aware of the fact that they’re being sacrificed?
Kat: Right.
Eric: That’s where it comes into sort of the gray area between what Dumbledore did to Harry, versus if Harry were to be sacrificed for the greater good and he knew that upfront before the scene in the forest. I think he would have a much altogether different opinion of the whole situation, like people willingly fight for the Order of the Phoenix against Voldemort. And that’s a different situation entirely than what Harry is going through.
Kat: Well, doesn’t Harry know exactly? I mean, he pretty much knows that at this point, doesn’t he, because of that chapter in Order of the Phoenix?
Eric: Maybe.
Caleb: He says it, not [in] this week’s chapter but the previous chapter, I think – or it could be in this one – but he recognizes that he may not survive in the end.
Kat: Right.
Jessica: I think he recognizes it but I don’t think he really comes to terms with it until the very end, which is what Dumbledore was planning all along, which makes sense because I don’t think Harry would have been able to really go through with it. Maybe. I don’t know. I don’t think he would have really been able to go through with it if he had found out sooner. Or if he did, he probably would have had a much harder time walking into that forest.
Kat: Yeah, I guess that’s the difference between knowing about it, accepting it, and acting on it, in a way, really…
Jessica: Mhm.
Kat: … because he’s known about it for a while because of the Prophecy. He knew that eventually one of them was going to have to die.
Jessica: Right.
Kat: But it wasn’t until he got to this point and a little bit later on when he was like, “Okay, it could be me. It really well could be me.”
Jessica: And it becomes a reality.
Kat: Right.
Jessica: When you’re younger and you’re further away from that final moment, it kind of seems like, “Oh, well, I mean… it might not happen. It probably won’t happen. Maybe it won’t happen. Oh, it’s going to happen.”
Eric: All he finds out when he’s fifteen is that one of them must die, right?
Jessica: Yeah.
Eric: “Neither can live while the other survives.” Both of them end up having to die a little bit…
Jessica: Yeah, right. It’s… yeah.
Eric: It’s kind of unfair.
Kat: Well, the situation when he was fifteen in Order is very different. Dumbledore was alive, he was at Hogwarts, there were no Horcruxes… very different situation. Significantly less scary, although still scary.
Jessica: That’s true. And it still freaked him out. He’s like, “Shit, I might die.”
Kat: Right, exactly.
[Jessica and Kat laugh]
Kat: Well, I’m definitely going to butcher the username for this next comment here, but I’m going to give it a go. I believe that it is pronounced as Wokanshutaiduo. Is that what we’ve decided, I think?
[Jessica laughs]
Kat: Anyway…
Eric: Secretly, in a segment that was cut that lasted twenty minutes, yes, that is what we decided on.
Kat: [laughs] Please spell it out phonetically for us so we know how to say it. Anyway, the comment says,
“I don’t believe Dumbledore ever got past the notion of the greater good. However[,] as he grew older, his understanding of what constitutes the greater good evolved and matured. He [realized] that subjugating Muggles under wizard kind was NOT for Muggles’ own good but for HIS own good, and was wrong. But he still manipulates his followers significantly to achieve the greater good of defeating Voldemort.”
Eric: I actually like this idea and I would tend to agree with it. Dumbledore continuously operates under the whole “greater good” umbrella.
Kat: Mhm.
Eric: And that is evidenced as well by the chapter in the phrase “secrets and lies,” which comes up.
Kat: Yep.
Eric: So I think that this notion is a little underhanded, and you wouldn’t tell people the full truth if you weren’t trying to manipulate them. And if you want to manipulate people but still want to be seen as morally correct, then you have to use phrases like, “It’s for the greater good.”
Jessica: Right.
Kat: Now, Dumbledore was a Gryffindor, right?
Eric: Hmm… yeah.
Kat: Does that suit him?
Eric: I mean, I would probably put him in Ravenclaw…
Jessica: I was just about to say that if I were to choose another House, it would probably be Ravenclaw.
Caleb: I think you’ve had some Gryffindor… I mean, I think there’s this bold[ness] and brashness in the way he thought of the greater good and what that meant and what they needed to do. There’s something about taking that upon yourself and filling the need to act upon it in a very bold way, in a questionable way even. So I think it’s really, really Gryffindor.
Kat: See, I would probably put him somewhere between Ravenclaw and Slytherin, myself.
Jessica: Really?
Kat: Yeah, because he is incredibly smart but he’s also a master manipulator. Both Houses are known for manipulation.
Jessica: Oho!
Kat: But he’s incredibly ambitious, too.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, people always talk about the bravery of Snape.
Kat: Right.
Eric: That has come out and … bravery being a Gryffindor trait, but Snape was as Slytherin as they come. But also, what Dumbledore did his whole life was pretty brave. He was a leader; he was probably, arguably, the best headmaster Hogwarts had ever seen up to that point. There are a lot of bold, brash qualities to him that I think are pretty important, but a lot of what Dumbledore did in the earlier books, too – when he was doing the most brave stuff of his career and his life – was all off-screen because it wasn’t part of the plot of the books.
Jessica: Yeah, and the stuff that he did must have been extremely hard and taken a lot of courage to do. I kind of just naturally always saw him in Gryffindor. I don’t know if that’s actually true or false.
Eric: I mean, Dumbledore is the opposite of Voldemort and Voldemort is so Slytherin.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eric: So you’re like, “Oh, okay… so opposite… Gryffindor being the opposite of Slytherin…”
Jessica: Right… [unintelligible]
Kat: But how can you say that they’re opposite? Just because one didn’t kill people?
Jessica: Probably opposite like…
Eric: Well, they’re opposite sides of the very basic black and white spectrum…
Jessica: The huge spectrum of light and dark.
Eric: Yeah, it’s like one is good and one is evil, right?
Jessica: Yeah.
Eric: I know it’s a lot more complicated than that, but in the very same way…
Kat: I wouldn’t personally put them that far apart…
Eric: Yeah… and I think that’s a very interesting discussion to have. I wouldn’t necessarily disagree at all.
Jessica: I wouldn’t say that they don’t have things in common, Dumbledore and Voldemort…
Kat: All right. I guess… I’m sure we will eventually get there or that will make a really great Podcast Question of the Week. But we will get back to our last comment here from last week’s episode, which comes from Nina. It says,
“My impression is that Dumbledore is the one character that JKR often subordinated to plot. When he subjects his students (and Harry in particular) to unnecessary risks or is distant to Harry throughout the hardest year of his life, I could never shake off the feeling as a reader that this was completely out of character and just there so the action could unfold in a certain way. As a result, I cared a lot less for Dumbledore than for those characters that felt real and never like a plot device. Finding out about Dumbledore’s tragic childhood and youth in the final book changed that. I feel compassion for him not trusting himself with relationships anymore. I’m upset with him for some of the choices he made (later at life), and my annoyance at his frequent praise of his own intelligence is tampered by the recognition that wisdom was something he had earned through suffering. Overall, I just care about Dumbledore now.”
Jessica: I love this comment.
Kat: Yeah, I thought it was a really great angle because … when we talk about characters, we don’t often talk about them through the lens of J.K. Rowling’s writing. I thought this was a great point.
Jessica: I really agree with a lot that she’s saying.
Caleb: I can’t identify with not caring about him as earlier on that this Nina struggled with and some pieces of… yeah, she said she just didn’t care about him as much. I definitely didn’t struggle with that as much early on, but I do think that the commentary on the end – the way this really captured so much about him in such a short amount of time to such impactful text and stuff we learn about him – that changes things a lot for people with Dumbledore.
Kat: And I like it, too because Jo has said before that Dumbledore is her and she is Dumbledore.
Jessica: Mhm. Yeah.
Kat: So what does that really say about Jo…
Eric: She’s a crazy manipulator. [laughs]
Kat: … when we talk about how much we care about Dumbledore?
Eric: It’s all for the greater good. [laughs] We’re being used and manipulated….
[Jessica and Kat laugh]
Jessica: I don’t mind being used by J.K. Rowling.
[Kat laughs]
Eric: I do like that. I will say Dumbledore – and from this comment – his frequent praise of his own intelligence, I think that’s a purely Dumbledore thing. I don’t think Jo… I haven’t ever seen Jo do that to herself.
Kat: No, I do agree with that whole-heartedly.
Eric: Yeah. So I will say that’s a trait that’s firmly Dumbledore’s.
Jessica: And even when Dumbledore does that, I feel like it’s kind of half-hearted, jokingly, like teasing about it. I don’t think he actually praises himself 100% like he’s giving himself compliments. Do you know what I mean?
Eric: I think he’s a little… I don’t think he thinks that he himself is infallible. I think that he’s very aware of the grief that he’s caused others in the past, so I don’t think he is arrogant.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eric: But the problem is when he gives himself those little pats on the back, whether in conversation with others or just to Harry. He’s never wrong, really. He is the smartest man in the room pretty much at all times, so any jokes are still a little bit inappropriate to make because it’s like, “Well, you are that guy.”
Jessica: That’s true. [laughs]
Kat: Mhm.
Eric: And Harry just wants a mentor. He looks up to him so heavily. So it’s kind of… I don’t know. Rereading the series and counting all the times that Dumbledore praises himself would be very interesting to do.
Jessica: Mhm. And just going back to his whole greater good thing throughout his life, I remember I did comment on the forums about it a couple weeks ago just about how for me, I feel like after learning about Dumbledore’s story and his life and his childhood and his stuff with the greater good with Gellert… and I feel like he definitely grew keeping the whole greater good thing that they created together, except I feel like both of their greater goods turned into two different greater goods with different beliefs behind them. When Dumbledore got older, I feel like his greater good was different, and changed compared to what Gellert wanted.
Kat: Yeah, that’s definitely a thing that happens between friends. You can agree on something and be working toward a common goal and then something happens in your life and it just completely changes not only your opinion of that other person, but any goal that you were working toward may completely change after that. And given the fact that Albus was in love with him…
Jessica: Yeah.
Eric: I think the men had very drastically different ideas of how to achieve the means that they were looking for and that’s where it all went to hell.
Kat: Agreed. Well, there we go, guys. That is our recap from last week’s Podcast Question of the Week. As usual, keep the conversation going. There [are] lots and lots of good comments over at alohomora.mugglenet.com, so go over there and join the conversation.
Eric: Before we continue, we want to remind our listeners that their Alohomora! is now on Patreon. And in fact, this episode of Alohomora! is sponsored by Crystal Fidler. We want to thank you very much, Crystal, for sponsoring this episode.
Kat: Thank you!
Eric: And to find out… yeah.
Eric and Jessica: Yay!
[Jessica laughs]
Eric: To find out more, you can visit our Patreon page, which is patreon.com/alohomora. You can become a sponsor for as little as $1 a month. And we have very exciting news on the Patreon front because our post-Hallows plans – that’s what we’re doing with this podcast after we hit the end of Book 7 – [have] been revealed to our sponsors ahead of the curve, or ahead of time. So they get it a couple weeks before we’re going to say anything to the public. For more on that, visit our Patreon: patreon.com/alohomora.
Jessica: Yeah, I have to go jump on that. Patreon sponsor.
Eric: Please do.
[Jessica laughs]
Eric: We’ll wait. Do it right now.
[Jessica and Kat laugh]
Jessica: Pause.
Eric: But thank you, to everyone who is sponsoring us on Patreon. It’s very important; it really helps.
Kat: And thank you, Crystal! Yay!
Eric: Yeah!
Caleb: Thank you indeed. And we are going to move right into this week’s chapter discussion.
[Deathly Hallows Chapter 29 intro begins]
[Sound of knocking]
Luna: Chapter 29.
Eagle knocker: Which came first: The phoenix, or the flame?
Luna: “The Lost Diadem.”
[Deathly Hallows Chapter 29 intro ends]
Caleb: So we are finally fully back in Hogwarts. It has been a long time since we have seen the trio back in the school. But Neville leads Harry, Hermione, and Ron through a very useful tunnel and they learn about the horrible things happening at Hogwarts and reunite with a few other students. Shortly after, other former Dumbledore’s Army members return and many are ready to fight while Harry tries to focus on the bigger mission. Harry sets off to find the Ravenclaw Horcrux. He learns some information but [hits] a big spot of trouble. So the first thing is we get more time with Neville. We see him at the very end of the last chapter, and Neville is taking the trio through this very useful tunnel into – we will see in just a second – the Room of Requirement. Neville casually mentions before they head out that others are coming soon. And we don’t get much of it right then, but we find them to show up in just a little bit. But I really wanted to take a second to look at the passage because Harry mentions that this is not one of the passages that everyone knew about. Harry learned about secret passages from the Marauder’s Map and Fred and George, who learned it from the map, and that was obviously made by the four Marauders. And this is not on the map. No one really knows about it. So I’m wondering how old it is and who made it; if this was something set up between Albus and Aberforth. The only thing we really get here in this passage; the text says, “It looked as though the passageway had been there for years.”
Kat: Yeah, I’m excited to talk about this because they got to spout all their theories about it last week. And I’m excited to give mine because they basically contemplated that Ariana’s portrait was always there, and one night when Neville got really hungry, the Room of Requirement just made the tunnel to Aberforth’s pub. I’m actually going to go with that because it’s incredibly that easy. The Room of Requirement is very giving. It’s a very nice friend to have. [laughs]
Jessica: That’s what the book made it sound like, too, right?
Kat: Yeah.
Jessica: You read it and you just… it sounds like that’s exactly what happened. But it’s just so weird to me.
Eric: Well, and we’ve just never seen Hogwarts behave like this.
Jessica: Exactly.
Eric: It’s almost as if, to quote the movie, “Hogwarts wants us to fight back.” It’s very…
Kat: “Hogwarts wants us to have a healthy dinner!”
[Eric laughs]
Jessica: Yay, food!
Eric: Yeah. In that case, why doesn’t that tunnel just go down to Hogwarts’s own kitchens?
Kat: Oh, right. Yeah.
[Eric laughs]
Jessica: Wow, yeah. What?
Eric: What? I will say, there’s support from the text of this very chapter when Neville is talking about [how] he was sitting around thinking about how he needed food and then this passageway opened up. I would also err on the side of this passageway, even though it looks old, is actually as new as when Neville first had to go through it. I think it’s recent. I think that the reason it looks old or looked as though it had been there for years is because that’s the kind of stone that was probably pulled from somewhere else in the castle.
Jessica: I was just thinking that.
Eric: Yeah. And also, the architecture, just in general of whatever… Hogwarts’s own sentience, if you could call it that… because the Room of Requirement really bridges the gap between fake intelligence, or artificial intelligence, or magical intelligence. It can basically decipher anything that you’re asking for, as we find out later in this chapter. But I think that it very much just created this for the first time using its own set of parameters and skills, which in that case just makes it look like it’s just the British medieval castle style.
Jessica: This is very creepy, though.
Eric: What?
Jessica: Imagine the Room of Requirement just [saying], “Okay, you want food?” And it just carves this tunnel through this stone and rock to his pub. What? I don’t understand.
Eric: Well, because it’s magic, it doesn’t necessarily need to be a direct tunnel.
Jessica: Right.
Eric: You know what I’m saying? There probably… because the Room of Requirement is… I don’t mean to use the word “landlocked” because that’s wrong, but clearly it’s not necessarily a direct tunnel that’s going to exist there forever. In fact, I think the tunnel probably goes away.
Kat: Well, okay. So here [are] a few things that I was just thinking about. The tunnel that we find out about from the Marauder’s Map that’s been caved in for years: Where does that go to? Second question: The Room of Requirement is on the seventh floor. How do you have a tunnel?
Eric: Right. I mean, it would have to go behind the walls, which we do know is a thing because of Chamber of Secrets.
Kat: Yeah, but could you imagine a tunnel that goes up seven stories?
Jessica: Or down.
Eric: Well, they also have the cupboard, right? The staircase behind the cupboard that has a different exit every day in this chapter when they leave the Room of Requirement.
Caleb: Yeah, that’s one of the points that’s a little further down.
Kat: That’s true.
Caleb: But yeah, we see… I think a big thing in this chapter is [that] we see the expansive power of the Room of Requirement that we have never really seen before. And the question I had – and we can go ahead and get into this now a little bit – is: Is it consistent with the Room of Requirement that we have seen over the previous six books? Or is this just a dramatic change that isn’t very believable? Or is it believable because Hogwarts is really just responding itself to being attacked by these terrible forces?
Eric: I remember feeling, after reading it the first time, that this was so much of a dramatic difference in the Room of Requirement; how it was behaving with the parameters might be… Essentially, it knows that it can’t produce food, and then it also knows that Aberforth is a friend of Hogwarts, and that it would be safe to build a passageway to the Hog’s Head where it’s an establishment where you can get food. There’s just so much… it’s such a reach. It’s reaching all the way to Hogsmeade from Hogwarts. There’s such a reach in the scope and such an increase in the Room of Requirement’s power. I remember disliking it. Now, I read it – and I read this chapter twice today to prepare – and I just think, “Wow! What a cool room! How cool is it that they built this thing that can do this?” I’m much less bothered by it, but I remember it being very shocking at first.
Jessica: Yeah.
Kat: I’m the total opposite. I always thought that it was really believable, actually, given everything that the DA was just given back in Book 5. The only thing that gets me is the fact that it’s on the seventh floor and you can’t have a tunnel that goes into mid-air.
[Jessica laughs]
Eric: Yeah, you can.
Kat: I know it’s magic and all that, but…
Eric: You can… but that’s exactly… that’s why. They could be… think of the tunnel: What if it’s the size of Hermione’s bag, but when they enter it they’re that…? Or the opposite where they’re… you know what I’m saying? Maybe the tunnel is actually like a mouse hole.
Jessica: Oh, I never thought of that.
Eric: So maybe they don’t realize, but they’re shrinking down to size when they… you never know.
Kat: Huh. Okay.
Eric: It could be anything, really.
Kat: That’s a cool theory. I dig it. I wanted to point out, too, that in the chapter art for this chapter, Neville looks like Peter Pettigrew.
Jessica: Yes! He does.
Eric: I’m sure it’s a mistake.
Kat: And honestly, that’s… if Neville hadn’t been at the end of that last chapter, I would have been like, “Oh, Peter Pettigrew is back,” because it doesn’t look like Neville.
[Eric laughs]
Kat: That’s all.
Eric: The one thing, actually – while we’re talking about the tunnel, though – that bothers me is in the movie they show the grate, the random grate that’s on the Hogwarts grounds. So you… it’s a shot of the grass on a hill and there’s this grate. So you can hear them still continuing their conversation as they gradually make their way to Hogwarts. I understand why it’s in the movie, but I think that’s a super bad, terrible security hazard if that were real.
[Jessica laughs]
Kat: True.
Eric: So I don’t think it’s a bookism at all, and I was really reading this chapter to see is there any mention of this ridiculous moonlight shining through a grate which would immediately give away their position to anybody who was walking on the grounds.
[Jessica laughs]
Kat: Well, and it would flood the tunnel because it’s the UK and it rains every day.
[Jessica laughs]
Eric: And it would flood the tunnel! Exactly. So there would need to be drainage and the Room of Requirement would need to go beyond its…
Kat: Then they’d have to hire a plumber. It’s just too much work.
Eric: [laughs] It’s too much work.
Jessica: The Room of Requirement doesn’t need a plumber, it can just plumb itself.
Kat: Yep.
Eric: Self-plumbing.
Kat: Like the Chamber of Secrets.
Caleb: Before they get to the Room of Requirement – we’re still on the way in the tunnel, however it works – [we learn] that the Carrows are pretty much in charge of the day-to-day classroom, teacher, everything of the school, even though Snape is the headmaster. They’re really running the show, but it’s good to know at least some of the professors are trying to resist them and this blatant torture and punishment that is being put on the students. We learn that even the students are practicing the Cruciatus Curse on each other, which just shows how far things have come.
Kat: Which made me think of the Board of Governors. Isn’t that a thing? Lucius was on the Board of Governors for Hogwarts, right?
Eric: Yeah, it is in Year 2. Yeah.
Kat: So is it all Death Eaters now?
Eric: Ooh.
Caleb: I wonder. I feel like the Ministry [has] just probably usurped any power that they formerly had. And now it’s just a locally run school. Snape runs everything now.
Kat: Right. Umbridge-like.
Eric: Yeah, I think that’s fair.
Caleb: Yeah.
Kat: Right.
Eric: Yeah, maybe it actually went away a lot sooner than we thought in Umbridge’s time in fifth year. Something like that. Having a Ministry-appointed High Inquisitor may make the positions that the Governors would have had obsolete.
Caleb: So I thought the exchange between Ron and Neville was really interesting because Neville is building up all of these horrible things that are happening, and also showing… he’s done a really amazing job standing up to the Carrows and the regime that they’ve put up, and he’s paid for it. He’s got battle scars because of it and he talks about standing up to them. I’m trying to remember what the specific… I should have written it down better. I can’t remember what he says in this specific moment, but he says something that he stood up to them for and Ron almost rebukes Neville. He says something like, “There’s a time and a place for it.”
Eric: Yeah. [laughs]
Caleb: “For these sort of things.”
Jessica: It’s the Muggle Studies.
Caleb: Yeah, and Neville responds, “The thing is it helps when people stand up to them; it gives everyone hope.” So it’s an interesting dynamic for Ron to be the one to be… it was almost Hermione-like in a way.
Eric: Yeah.
Caleb: But I wanted to think, “Who is right here?” Because at first read, you’re like, “Wow, Neville is just being really bold and brave. He’s really showing his Gryffindor side, standing up to them so that others have hope.” But Ron really has a point. You have to pick your battles in these situations, so I wanted to see what you guys thought.
Jessica: It’s hard without actually being there. You know what I mean? Neville says, “You didn’t hear her. You wouldn’t have stood it, either.” Which…
Eric: Right.
Jessica: I probably agree with Neville because I could totally see Harry or Ron just losing it and standing up for what they believe in, and then just getting tortured just like Neville did. But I think it’s just because they haven’t been there this whole time. They don’t really know what it’s like. They’re not really in it.
Eric: It’s shocking because we praised Harry for his outbursts against Umbridge, and she wasn’t even a Death Eater…
Jessica: Right.
Eric: … but now the school is actually overrun by Death Eaters and they are, in fact, at war. I think it’s not out of the realm of understanding to see if people like Neville were just like, “No, we’re constantly at war, and I’m going to continue to be a thorn in their side.” Essentially, very Weasley twins-ish of him to be like, “I’m going to be a constant thorn in their sides as much and as often as possible.”
Jessica: It’s really cool. You can… from just these first few pages, you can really tell how much Neville has changed. He’s really like a leader now. And I’ve never really taken to Neville’s character throughout the books, but I think… it always impressed me how he’s just standing up. And I think it’s cute that he’s trying to step in and fill Harry’s shoes while Harry has been gone.
Kat: See, I think it’s funny that you say that he’s filling Harry’s shoes because I actually think he’s filling Dumbledore’s shoes because there’s nothing that Neville does that Dumbledore wouldn’t approve of or wouldn’t have done himself; standing up to people and speaking his mind and fighting for those he loves because Neville truly loves Hogwarts. Granted, he’s had a few hard years there, but I think that he really feels at home there. He’s never really felt at home with his grandmother at his actual house.
Jessica: Well, don’t you think Harry feels the same way?
Kat: I do, but in a different way because Harry has this whole other responsibility on his shoulders that, as much as he thinks about the other students, he doesn’t think about them in the same way.
Jessica: Right.
Eric: He doesn’t have the luxury of thinking of everyone else, I guess.
Kat: In this moment, too, when Ron and Neville are talking about the torture and everything, it just reminds me of Ron and Hermione back at Malfoy Manor, too; how he stood up for her and helped her.
Caleb: Right. So we learn a little bit more of a few characters. We know that Luna gets taken by the Death Eaters on the Christmas train, and that Ginny is not at Hogwarts, either because she’s stayed home since Easter. Now, I was starting to wonder that… would things have been different for Neville if his parents were still able? [If] they were not in St. Mungo’s because of the effects of the curse, how would they have…? How would that have affected the Hogwarts resistance, which is pretty much being led by Neville right now? Would they have been the parents to try to get him out? Because we know the Weasleys are very involved in the Order, yet Ginny is home right now. So I wonder… it’s hard to play hypotheticals, but more I’m thinking if he would have stayed out, what would’ve happened to the Hogwarts resistance?
Kat: I think the major difference between the Longbottoms and the Weasleys is that the Longbottoms were powerful Aurors, and… they were Aurors, right? Yeah.
Eric: Yeah.
Kat: And not that Arthur and Molly are not powerful, but I think they’re a very different kind of powerful. And I think that while Arthur and Molly would want Ginny to stay home, I feel like Neville’s parents probably wouldn’t necessarily want him to be there, but would understand if he needed to be there. If he said, “You know what? I have to do this. I have to be there. No one else is fighting for them. Harry is gone. I have to do this.” And I think that they would 100% support him in that endeavor.
Jessica: His grandmother is always saying, “Live up to your parents. Oh, yeah, you’re your parents’ son now.” He talks about it, too, and you get the feeling that they’re a family like that. They pride themselves in being courageous and…
Kat: Proactive.
Jessica: Yeah, not hiding and being safe. Not that that’s necessarily a bad thing, but…
Eric: But it isn’t just Neville, though, too, is the thing. It might currently have been Neville for the last – what he says – couple of weeks, but he points out that he, Ginny, and Luna were the leaders. So he has had some help and co-conspirators who were in it as deep as he was. Obviously, everyone in the Room of Requirement, it’s said later, has earned their keep by fighting and basically standing up to the Death Eaters that are running the school. But in general, I just take it as, Neville is the guy who we have… he’s our in to understanding what’s been going on because we have been away from Hogwarts. But I see it as [being] an organization that was run equally by [him], Luna, and Ginny until each of them were pulled away.
Caleb and Jessica: Right.
Kat: In that secondary trio, though, isn’t Neville the Harry?
Eric and Jessica: Yeah.
Jessica: I think so.
Kat: And wouldn’t you put Neville or Harry as the “leader” of the trio?
Eric: No.
Caleb: In some cases. In some situations, I think it’s Ginny.
Eric: I think Hermione is the leader of the trio, too.
Jessica: Right, and Ginny would be Hermione.
Caleb: I’m not ready to make that comparison.
Jessica: Maybe? Or do you think that…?
Eric: Yeah, I’m not 100% on that. It is a second trio, but it’s not necessarily… it could be a different trio.
Caleb Yeah.
Eric: Different personalities.
Jessica: Right.
Caleb: We mentioned Neville’s grandma a second ago, and we learned a little bit about her, as well. The Carrows/the Ministry/the Death Eaters – pretty much one in the same, right now – realize that the one way, or think that the one way that they can go after Neville, who keeps defying them at every corner, is to go after his grandmother, Augusta Longbottom. It doesn’t work. [laughs] They think that they’re going to be able to stifle a frail old woman, but Augusta does her work on them and messes them up pretty badly.
Eric: Poor Dawlish. Not.
Caleb: Yeah. Dawlish is always getting sent off.
[Kat laughs]
Jessica: Oh, whatever, Dawlish.
Caleb: So he gets sent to St. Mungo’s, and now, even though she was able to hold her own, Augusta Longbottom is on the run. So it’s affecting a lot of people outside of Hogwarts, too, in a lot of ways.
Jessica: I think that’s so awesome. I want to have a grandma like that.
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: And even though the beginning of this chapter… I think it does a really good job of summarizing everything that happened. There’s a real perspective in the way that Neville talks about it. It’s almost… there is a chronology of who they lost [and] when. And also, even though Harry first asked about Hogwarts as a deflection because he doesn’t want to talk about their mission, you do get this information. Neville is more than willing to oblige Harry in sharing the details… because basically, even though they’ve heard about Gringotts and things, they still don’t know the full truth. But they’ve at least heard something, and Harry is just like, “But we haven’t heard anything about Hogwarts, so tell us.” And then he does. I still would have rather had seen it. I still want the “at Hogwarts” version of Book 7, but ultimately, this is all we’re going to get, and I think it does inspire the imagination. Some of the… like the Cruciatus Curse on each other. That’s actually really horrible.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eric: If you think about how much the world has changed, that it was an Azkaban-able offense to perform the Cruciatus Curse three years ago, and now they’re doing it as a way to punish each other, almost. It’s weird.
Jessica: They’re having children learn it and do it on each other in a classroom.
Eric: Yeah.
Jessica: That’s…
Eric: It’s the complete opposite of everything that has come before it.
Jessica: Yeah.
Kat: Even fake Moody didn’t go as far as doing it on each other.
Eric and Jessica: Right.
Eric: He was a Death Eater.
Kat: He did it to them, but not each other. So…
Eric: Yeah.
Caleb: So we finally get into the Room of Requirement and we see that it has become basically a camping ground for at least members of three of the Hogwarts Houses. We see that there are makeshift beds with House banners for Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff. There’s no Slytherin. So this always…
Jessica: Come on.
Caleb: Yeah. It felt like you might want to jump in there, Jessica. It always stands out to me.
Jessica: I’m just going to hang my own little banner in the corner, okay, guys?
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: That’s fine. That’s fine, but she couldn’t do… there couldn’t be Slytherins in the Room of Requirement, and then not be Slytherins at the Final Battle.
Jessica: I… okay. [groans] I think…
Eric: And because she made the decision that there weren’t going to be Slytherins at the Final Battle, there can’t be Slytherins in the Room of Requirement.
Jessica: Well, because they evacuated all the Slytherins. They didn’t want all those Slytherins to interfere with everyone who was supporting the school, and then all the Death Eaters. So they just got rid of them completely. But what about the student Slytherins who don’t necessarily agree with what’s going on with all the Death Eaters? All the other Houses aren’t going to bother to even see if there are any Slytherins that are disagreeing with what’s going on. But also, imagine if you’re in Slytherin, and think of the pressure that’s put on you to act like you agree with everything. And what happens if you speak up or say, “Well, no. This is actually pretty messed up. I don’t really… where’s the DA? I want to talk to those people.” But they’re not going to talk to you because you’re a Slytherin. It’s so stereotyped and it sucks. Do you know what I’m saying?
Eric: I agree; it completely sucks. But it comes down to… they’re dealing with concepts that are above the 15/16-year-old capability.
Jessica: Yeah, that’s true.
Eric: And they won’t take the security risk of sorting… I think…
Jessica: I know. They could totally be a spy. They could be pretending.
Eric: And look, historically, the Inquisitorial Squad, just two years ago, [was] made up of what? 100% Slytherin.
Jessica: [laughs] Yes.
Eric: And you’re just like, “So there [are] so many bad examples of why they shouldn’t trust Slytherins.” If you really want to get a hero, get somebody to put their neck out from Gryffindor, Ravenclaw, or Hufflepuff, and actually actively really try and – I don’t know – do some Polyjuicing, go down to the dungeons, and really try and see who’s having a hard time of it, and then get some Slytherins in the Room of Requirement. But ultimately, I think – and it’s a great failing of everybody involved – but I think that, ultimately, they were distracted by so many other things that I think… I have no doubt that what you’re saying, Jessica… that those people exist. There [are] people who are very not comfortable in Slytherin.
Jessica: I feel so bad for them. Man. But they’re also… we can’t forget that they are still pretty young. I don’t know. Me being older.
Eric: But reading in this chapter that those banners were up and that Slytherin’s was absent, I was also just thinking… I couldn’t help but think of the Room of Requirement versus the Chamber of Secrets. Salazar Slytherin built his chamber for his House, although, really, it was his heir, but it just made me think more and more and more about the Room of Requirement and its origins. Who made it; who built it; if the founders had anything to do with it; if it’s something that evolved organically?
Jessica: Right.
Eric: Hundreds and hundreds of questions, but seeing those banners, I’m like, “Well, did the founders, then, in response to Slytherin’s Chamber, just decide to build a really cool room that would do whatever you wanted it to?” And is it naturally suited? Is it better suited to the temperament of the people in those other Houses that aren’t Slytherin? Or…
Jessica: I always… I think that’s really funny and cute to think about, but I always just assumed that the Room created those banners because different Houses were showing up. Like, “Oh, Hufflepuffs are here. There’s your little corner.” And I’m pretty sure it would have been very odd, but if some Slytherins did come over, I’m pretty sure they would have had their banner, too, I think.
Kat: All this talk about Slytherins reminds me a tweet that Jo sent out back in May of last year. It says, “Not all Slytherins think they’re racially superior, but all those who do are Slytherins.”
Jessica: Ooh.
Kat: And I just remember reading that at the time and thinking, “Wow. That is ballsy.”
Jessica: That’s so intriguing.
Eric: Way to still put bigots in one House.
Jessica: They’re not all pure-bloods, either. There [are] not enough families left, first of all.
Kat: That’s true.
Jessica: That’s really cool. I like that a lot.
Caleb: So on the tune of seeing some familiar faces, we have an AudioBoom that was sent in. So we’re going to go ahead and play that now.
[Audio]: Shalom. It’s Beady, from the Confundledore episode. This chapter is just about my last chance to make an Anthony Goldstein shout-out. With all of the comparisons between the Second Wizarding War and World War II, Death Eaters and Nazis, I wanted to recognize Hogwarts’s resident Jew, who took to heart the commandment, “Never stand idly by while your neighbor bleeds.” My question is, which of the “minor characters” were you excited to see in this chapter? Thoughts about what actions forced them to seek refuge in the Room of Requirement? Also, really geeked about the news from Patreon. Thanks for an awesome show.
Caleb: All right, so yeah. We definitely get to see a few familiar faces turn up before things get crazy. So who were you guys most excited to see here?
Eric: I’m going to let everybody else go before me.
Kat: Probably Lee Jordan.
Eric: [laughs] Oh, yeah, Lee.
Kat: I was really excited to get Lee again.
Eric: Lee walked in with Fred and George and Ginny. Do you think that he was hanging out with them prior to their meeting at the Hog’s Head?
Kat: I hope so.
Eric: Yeah.
Kat: I see the three of them as their own little trio.
Eric: Aww.
Jessica: You know what? I was going to say Luna, but she’s a bigger character. Okay, so I don’t like Cho Chang that much, but I love Harry’s reaction when she walks through. It says, “Harry’s mouth fell open. Right behind Lee Jordan came Harry’s old girlfriend, Cho Chang. She smiled at him.” And I’m just like, “Oh my God.”
Eric: Jessica, I’m going to… that was mine. I was going to say Cho Chang, too.
Jessica: Memories. Really?
Eric: Yeah.
Caleb: Cho was also mine.
Kat: That’s a funny reaction.
Caleb: Cho was mine because it sets up the hilarious Ginny/Cho/Luna exchange.
Eric, Jessica, and Kat: Yeah.
Kat: True.
Caleb: I love it.
Eric: There is that. I can’t stand that, but we’ll get into it, obviously, in a moment.
Jessica: Catfight.
Eric: But for me, the fact that Cho was there, right? That Cho was still… she still had her Galleon.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eric: She got the information and showed up. There [are] a lot of admirable qualities in what Cho is doing here. And for her to just be so summarily shut down by Ginny is very catty and not something that I love at all.
Caleb: Well, it’s not about being too catty. It’s about Harry.
Eric: Ehh.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eric: It’s about being – what’s the word? – territorial over Harry.
Jessica: But that’s how girls are.
Eric I… oh, yeah, but I don’t have to like it.
Kat: Hmm, I don’t know.
Jessica: Some of them, not all of them.
Kat: I think that Cho feels bad about how things ended with Harry, and that she probably just wanted an opportunity to be alone with him to talk.
Eric: But she’s denied.
Kat: I don’t think it was territorial.
Eric: Yeah, but she’s denied her redemption, essentially, at least at this point in the battle.
Kat: Yes, indeed.
Eric: The battle hasn’t begun yet, but I do… I just like that she’s there. So as far as a minor character or unexpected character showing up, it’s definitely Cho, and I think that she really has a lot of good intentions in coming and risking her life to come to Hogwarts and fight.
Kat: The person I’m not surprised isn’t there is Cormac McLaggen.
[Everyone laughs]
Jessica: That guy.
Eric: Oh, boy.
Kat: More Freddie Stroma in the movie would’ve been awesome.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: But he’s not there, so it’s fine.
Eric: I just wanted to ask, is Cormac in the DA? And this was really a weird question. I know he’s in the Slug Club, but was he not in Dumbledore’s Army?
Kat: No, I don’t think so.
Eric: Yeah, I don’t think so, either.
Jessica: He wasn’t in the DA. Wait, who…?
Eric: Because Cormac is a Book 6 guy, and I don’t even think… I’m trying to think of the meetings that they had for the DA in Book 6. Were there many? I don’t think there’s a lot of opportunity for Cormac to have joined.
Kat: No.
Eric: Okay.
Jessica: Just when I think about old characters, I think about Cormac.
Eric: Oh, yeah. That would have been fun.
Jessica: I love the interactions between him and Hermione in the movie. Just kill me.
Kat: Yep, brilliant.
Jessica: He’s so creepy.
Eric: Speaking of former relationships, though: Cho Chang might be there, and we get that response, but we don’t get to see Ron’s face when Lavender Brown gets there.
Caleb: Yeah, that’s true.
Jessica: You’re right!
Caleb: Yeah, we don’t.
Eric: So she’s sort of the minor character that shows up, but there’s no reaction to her.
Caleb: There’s no payoff.
Eric: So I wish there [were] more of that.
Jessica: Ron is probably hiding his face.
[Eric laughs]
Jessica: He probably doesn’t want her to notice that he noticed her.
Caleb: So we mentioned a little bit earlier, but just to get through it, we find out more of the magic about the Room of Requirement now; that apparently, as long as one person stays inside the room, the Carrows cannot reach them, and just having the thought, “I don’t want any Carrow supporters to be able to get in,” seemingly, is enough to seal it off to people…
[Eric laughs]
Caleb: … which is just so funny, given the way the Room of Requirement is given up in Order of the Phoenix for the first round of Dumbledore’s Army meetings. We’ll just have to take it, I guess. It’s just an expansive set of magic.
Eric: The Room has undergone some renovations, Caleb, okay?
Caleb: Yeah, I’m skeptical of it, but…
Kat: I think they just didn’t think about that last time.
Caleb: Yeah, I’m skeptical. But…
Jessica: Right here, it makes it seem so easy, though, doesn’t it?
Caleb: Yeah.
Eric: To code the room to come to your side?
Jessica: Yeah, with the right thoughts.
Eric: Well, Neville is obviously a master at it. I actually do believe that part of it, where it’s… Neville is particularly good at finding the right wording that’s going to become foolproof. I believe that. I think that he has it in him to have mastered that through careful time. But I will say, we got a lot of this in Book 6, too. Don’t forget Harry trying to get in when Draco is in the room. We really experienced a lot of this. What words did he use to code the room?
Jessica: I always wondered that. I always wanted to know.
Caleb: So I thought of something else about the dynamic that Harry starts to face here with the Dumbledore’s Army members, compared to how he deals with the Order members earlier in the book. So as people start getting in… the Weasleys, Lee Jordan, more and more people, and then, especially, the students who are there; Neville, who is ready to fight, ready to go. So earlier in the book we see that Harry met some struggles with Order members accepting that Harry couldn’t tell them everything and that it was his task and Dumbledore gave it to him. We see Lupin struggle with it a lot, and that’s a big conflict that happens. We see Bill struggle with it some at Shell Cottage recently. And now we start to see similar things go on here. Neville [is] saying things like, “We’re his army. We’re all in it together. We’ve been keeping it going while you three have been off on your own.” Almost this defensive tone. I don’t think it ever gets to be a conflict…
Eric: No.
Caleb: …but there’s… it definitely gets tense in some moments.
Eric: Yeah.
Kat: Mhm.
Caleb: Because Neville and the other students have been waiting for Harry. They are ready to go fight now. And then Ron responds to this, “It hasn’t exactly been a picnic, mate.” So Ron is trying to defend where they’ve been. They don’t really understand. No one understands what the three of them have been going through. So I thought it was very interesting that Jo brings back this overall conflict that Harry has to deal with, and now Ron and Hermione are picking it up more. First it was the adults in the Order, and it’s the same thing with the students here.
Eric: I love that this argument is brought back. This is the one thing where the whole book I’m like, “This is stupid!” Harry needs to accept help because there is strength in numbers and there is something to be said for the accomplishments of all of the people in his presence. I know that we have the unique insight of knowing what the trio has been through this year, and that they’ve been through a couple of close scrapes, but in terms of prolonged proximity to direct hands underneath Voldemort, all of these kids have the trio beat this year. And there is something to be said for that. They have taken the punishment and they have been crafty enough that they [have] still not been discovered. And apparently, they’re sleeping in these rooms and staying here full time. It’s not just Neville, which is the weirdest thing in the world, but ultimately, I think everybody is deserving of the truth at this point, and Harry is still not there yet. He doesn’t quite realize it yet. But ultimately, there [are] two things that make him come around. And the first is [that] Ron and Hermione are just like, “Well, it might be useful to ask for help. We might actually need their help on this.” And so just the basic fact of, “Yeah, you don’t have all the answers,” is enough to put one of the final nails in this coffin for him to just come forward and get off his high horse about Dumbledore just wanted it to be us. Because I’m tired of hearing that. I get sick of hearing that. But then the other thing is…
Caleb: Yeah, so I thought… before you get to that second thing.
Eric: Go on.
Caleb: I just wanted to point out… I think it is interesting that, again, it’s Ron that’s speaking up in these moments where we’re used to – at least for me, I’m used to – Hermione being the one. And Ron is the one that is first to make Harry stop and rationalize.
Jessica: Yes.
Caleb: Like, “You could use some help here.” And then it’s Hermione who follows him, saying, “You don’t have to do everything alone.” So there [are] just some really interesting small moments for Ron in this chapter that I never really picked up on before.
Kat: I think part of that is because Ron was out in the world on his own and saw a lot more of the actual struggle than Hermione and Harry did because they were holed up camping and Ron was out there dealing with Snatchers and disappearances and all of that. So…
Eric: More often. You’re totally right, Caleb, though. This is a scene in the movie where all of Hermione’s jokes go to Ron. This is the opposite book scene, where all of the lines Hermione normally would be saying are said by Ron.
Caleb and Kat: Mhm.
Jessica: Yeah, I do find it weird that Hermione doesn’t really say anything this whole time until Ron says, “Well, why can’t they help?”
Eric: And they should be a little bit more present, in general, knowing that Harry is having some kind of migraine Voldemort thing, too, at the moment. He can barely concentrate, but he’s supposed to defend himself in his choice against everyone in this room who wants to know the truth? They hang Harry out to dry.
Jessica: Yeah, but I love that it is Ron, and I think, also, one of my favorite parts in this chapter is when Ron just busts out some knowledge like, “Oh, well, you know, Gamp’s Law of Elemental Transfiguration.”
[Eric and Kat laugh]
Jessica: [shocked] Like, “What?”
Eric: Who did he hear that from?
Jessica: [laughs] What? If I [were] a student there and they had just come back and Ron said that, I would have been so concerned. I would have been like, “Ron!” I would have had a stroke.
Caleb: I think there is a reaction by the students. I think there’s one line where everyone is…
Jessica: Yeah.
Eric: They’re all very impressed with him.
Caleb: Yeah.
Jessica: Biased.
[Eric laughs]
Kat: Oh, yeah. It says, “said Ron, to general astonishment.”
Eric and Jessica [laugh] Yeah.
Jessica: That’s one of the best parts. I love it.
Eric: Maybe it was cruel astonishment, like, “You just said what?”
Caleb: Yeah.
[Jessica laughs]
Kat: Maybe. That’s great
Caleb: But then, yeah, you were alluding to this, I think, Eric; that the second thing – and probably the bigger thing for Harry in this moment – that really pushes him to finally let people in… it’s really been the struggle of the book. It’s been an overall narrative of the book, [that] he starts to think about Dumbledore…
Eric: Yes.
Caleb: … and how his biggest problem with Dumbledore, in this book, what made him so angry – and he’s been going back and forth the whole book up to this conversation with Aberforth in the previous chapter – is Dumbledore keeping too many secrets and lies. And Harry doesn’t want to become like that, and that’s enough to push him to give them not everything, but just enough information, which, arguably – and we’ve talked about this on multiple chapters this whole book – he could have done in previous circumstances. But he gives enough information here. It made me think maybe that conversation with Aberforth got to Harry a little bit more than he was willing to let on, even to himself because that was the last time that he was really having to struggle with how he felt about Dumbledore and he was forced… he felt pressured to defend Dumbledore to Aberforth, but at the same time, Aberforth was obviously getting to him, and I think that really comes out here.
Kat: I agree, and I actually think the opposite is true, as well. I think that that conversation for Aberforth was really important as well because I think that’s the reason he ends up showing up later.
Caleb and Jessica: Yeah.
Kat: So…
Eric: With one of his goats, right? [laughs]
Kat: [laughs] His Patronus, if nothing else.
Jessica: He’s riding it?
Eric: Oh, yeah, yeah. Right.
[Kat laughs]
Eric and Jessica: Yeah.
Jessica: Now I just see him riding into the scene on a goat…
Eric: Riding into battle with a goat.
Jessica: … like, “I’m here.” [laughs]
Eric: It’s been ten years since I read the Final Battle, so give me a break.
[Jessica laughs]
Eric: But I will say this act of defiance… that’s what it is, right? “I don’t want to be like Dumbledore,” is ultimately what Harry is saying here. He was just, as you pointed out, Caleb, he was true to Dumbledore in the previous chapter, maybe out of what he felt was right, but he ultimately does. It’s, again, this condemnation of Dumbledore’s practices, and he even goes into Snape and is just like, “Look at that whole mess. You’ve trusted the wrong people. I’m going to just trust an even greater amount of people, but they’re all safer in some key ways. They’ve proven their loyalty.”
Caleb: Right. Yeah, so Harry… and it’s a good thing he does finally open up because without [laughs] talking to people about things, he would never have figured out what the Horcrux ended up being. So he makes a general call to everyone in the room that he’s looking for something related to Ravenclaw. He obviously does not say anything about [it being a] Horcrux. He just makes this general announcement, and who else but Luna immediately responds? I mean, it’s instantaneous and she brings up Rowena Ravenclaw’s lost diadem, which makes sense because we saw a reference to that when we were at the Lovegood home earlier in the book. But hope is lost for a brief moment because we find out that the diadem is lost, but just as Harry starts to lose faith that this is, in fact, the Horcrux, Cho Chang – who else – gives a little bit more hope by offering to take Harry to the Ravenclaw common room to see what the diadem looked like. It’s something… I don’t know. It’s just [that] Cho is the character that picks up on, “We can’t give up on this being the thing we’re looking for,” even though she knows nothing about Horcruxes or what they’re doing, but she feels it’s important for Harry to see this. So she played an important role.
Eric: I think she picks up on something that’s key to Harry, which is he was going to maybe discount the idea [of] the diadem, at this point, but she’s like, “Oh, wait. There’s this option whereby you can see it.” She doesn’t know that he’s seen the diadem. He’s actually laid eyes on it before.
Caleb: Right.
Eric: Not just at the Lovegoods’.
Kat: Touched it. Held it.
Eric: He’s touched it. He’s held it.
Caleb: Right.
Eric: She doesn’t know that. There’s no way at all that she could possibly know that. But there’s something in the act of seeing and holding – even if it’s just a replica – seeing and holding to rule something out. There’s something that she puts some value on and… I don’t know. For Ginny to just be like, [imitating Ginny in a girly voice] “Umm, no. Luna will show him.”
Jessica: I love that. Oh my God.
Kat: Fiery Ginny. I miss that.
Jessica: It’s so territorial.
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: Its…
Caleb: It’s so Ginny, though.
Eric: Really?
Caleb: That’s what I think.
Jessica: It is so Ginny.
Eric: Yeah, but come on; get over yourselves. Get over your teenage egos. This is the final battle. They don’t know it yet, but Voldemort is on his way.
Kat: I was going to say: They don’t know that it’s the final battle…
Jessica: Yeah.
Caleb: Right.
Kat: … and they are teenagers.
Jessica: They don’t understand.
Eric: Well, each and every one of them… the whole thing was Neville told everybody that they were going to fight. Everybody came here knowing that they’re going to fight. That was… those were very specific words.
Kat: But not Voldemort. They thought that they were going to overthrow the Carrows and Snape. Big difference.
Caleb: Right.
Eric: Still, it’s still bigger.
Jessica: Yeah, and they didn’t think there was a time crunch on that. Do you know what I mean?
Eric: It’s still bigger than the Harry/Ginny relationship. I’m just saying. Ginny, chill out. I love Ginny. I really love and defend book Ginny 98% of the time. This is the first time… I’m remembering this is the 2% that I just can’t get behind.
Caleb: Right, but that’s good that there’s something about her that does irk you, right? Because it’s very real.
Eric: Yeah, you’re right.
Caleb: Yeah, so…
Eric: You’re right. You’re 100% right. Yeah.
Jessica: It’s just old memories and old things coming back. With having those same people in the same room, it’s hard for that to not happen sometimes, especially at this age.
Eric: That’s very fair. I just feel bad for Cho, that’s all.
Jessica: Yeah.
Eric: Because I don’t think there’s anything underhanded in her offering to show Harry the common room.
Caleb: No. I agree.
Jessica: No, I think it was purely friendly.
Caleb: And helpful.
Kat: Yeah, she just wanted a chance to talk to him. Yeah.
Jessica: She never really got that chance.
Caleb and Kat: No.
Jessica: Poor thing. [laughs]
Caleb: Whatever. With all that happening, it ends up being Luna who takes Harry off to the Ravenclaw common room, and Ravenclaw fans… I shouldn’t say fans. Ravenclaws, period, across the world reading this book finally get their moment to go into the Ravenclaw common room. And it’s funny that, even as Hogwarts is super hectic [and] this is leading up to getting to the Ravenclaw common room, Jo makes Harry tiptoe around the corridors and avoid the same problem areas of sneaking about the castle as he always did.
[Eric laughs]
Caleb: And he briefly remarks on it that his heart – even though he’d been in the corridors so many times – his heart was racing like it never had before. But we see familiar things show up; the suits of armor whose helmets creak at the sound of soft footsteps, they allow the ghosts to pass by, and Harry is very careful to avoid Filch and Peeves just like he would any other time he’s out and about at Hogwarts after hours.
Kat: I was going to say this is the middle of the night, right?
Caleb: Yeah.
Kat: Yeah, I thought so.
Eric: But it’s such a… you’re right. There’s this little nostalgia trip there for them.
Caleb: Mhm. Yeah. But we get to the Ravenclaw Common Room entrance and it is nothing but a plain expanse of aged wood and a bronze knocker in the shape of an eagle. And Luna walks up and knocks twice on the knocker and gets a question: “Which came first, the phoenix or the flame?” So it’s incredibly interesting the way the Ravenclaws get in. We know that Gryffindor and Slytherin get in by passwords. Hufflepuff; don’t they do a tapping sequence on the barrels?
Eric: Yeah.
Kat: Something like that, yeah.
Eric: Something like that.
Caleb: That was on Pottermore. So Gryffindor and Slytherin are very similar, and Hufflepuff is its own thing, and Ravenclaw is its own thing. And I like that these two Houses are very unique. And I think what was even my favorite line of this moment is, as Luna is explaining to Harry what the set-up is, she says, “That way you learn, you see.”
Kat: I know.
Caleb: Which is such a Luna thing, but it’s also like, “Yeah, I totally buy that’s why Rowena Ravenclaw did it.” So…
Eric: Yeah.
Jessica: It’s so cute, but Harry is such a Gryffindor. He’s like, “I don’t have time for this.”
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: Right.
Jessica: “You don’t have a password? That’s so much easier. I have to go save the world.”
[Eric laughs]
Caleb: Right.
[Jessica laughs]
Kat: Yep.
Jessica: I love it.
Eric: Ultimately, this is another thing with age. This is better with age, this whole situation, because at first I was just like, “Oh. Luna.” How she gets in is like, “The answer is not an answer.” It’s like you’re in a room with no doors [and] no windows. How do you get out? The answer is, “The same way you got in.” It’s like, “Wait a minute.” That’s cheap. [laughs]
Jessica: Yeah, and I love that the voice says, “Well reasoned.” It’s not like, “Oh, good answer.”
Eric: Or like, “Oh, correct.”
Caleb: Yeah, right. There could have been more to the answer.
Jessica: Yeah, exactly.
Caleb: So we get [that] the answer is, “A circle has no beginning,” which is a really, really great answer. So they do get into the common room, and the common room just seems like a beautiful place. I’m always struck by just the amazing view of the mountains that the Ravenclaw common room has, which I would just be super envious of if I [were] in another House.
Jessica: It does sound very pretty.
Caleb: Yeah, and as they’re going in, we get a statue of white marble of Rowena Ravenclaw, and it’s described as, “She seemed to look back at him,” him being Harry, “with a quizzical half-smile on her face. Beautiful, yet slightly intimidating.”
Kat: The white marble reminded me of Dumbledore’s tomb.
Eric: Oh.
Kat: Same material.
Eric: Too soon, too soon. But I’m wondering, why is she there in the common room? I’m trying to think of other common rooms that have their House founder embodied in the room. What is it about Ravenclaw? Is it that she’s inspiring? Is she there to really just be actively guiding people toward bettering themselves intellectually?
Jessica: I think so.
Eric: Is that why?
Kat: A beacon of knowledge.
Caleb and Jessica: Yeah.
Jessica: Exactly. A beacon of knowledge.
Eric: A beacon of knowledge.
Caleb: And I just love this quizzical smile and the way it’s written because I know exactly in my head what that looks like.
Jessica: Yes.
Caleb: You can see it just looking right back at you.
Kat: The Mona Lisa.
Caleb: Mhm.
Eric and Jessica: Yes.
Caleb: And so we see the diadem up on her head in the marble, and Harry looks up at the diadem and reads the phrase that’s on it, and says, “Wit beyond measure is man’s greatest treasure.” Before we get to what the aftermath is, this is the first time I’ve really thought about this. It’s surprising to me that it uses “man” and not something more gender neutral. I don’t know. For some reason, it just seems to me that Ravenclaw would have used something… I just see her as a fierce feminist, in my mind, for some reason. And it’s just something that rolls off the tongue easily, obviously.
Kat: I guess I always read that in the man as… because you have to think about this was, what, the 1800s when they wrote that?
Caleb: Yeah.
Kat: Or 1200s or whatever year that was.
Eric: A thousand years ago.
Kat: Right.
Eric: The 900s.
Kat: So that was used as more of a general term.
Caleb: Right, and I thought…
Jessica: Humans.
Caleb: Right. That’s true. Yeah, I guess I was forgetting how dated she would have been. So it just wouldn’t have happened, but I like to think that maybe if it [were] a little more modern it would have been more…
[Eric laughs]
Kat: Neutral. I totally agree because I definitely think she was a feminist.
Eric: I’m sure it would have been.
Caleb: Yeah. Just a little thought that I’ve never had before.
Eric: Yeah.
Caleb: But as Harry reads it aloud, Alecto Carrow makes her presence known behind them, and as Harry turns around, before he’s able to grab his wand and do anything, she pushes the big, bad button of the Dark Mark.
Jessica: Oh, man. I remember that freaking me out.
Eric: Did she have to answer a riddle to get in? Is she pretty smart? Is that what we’re to deduce from this?
Jessica: She was let in. She was let in.
Eric: Oh, by McGonagall, right?
Caleb: Yeah, the funny thing about this was [that] right after Deathly Hallows came out, there was this Deathly Hallows in 15 minutes parody that I revisit every now and then. It is hilarious. I’ll have to dig it up. But there’s this scene where Alecto and Amycus are trying to get into the Ravenclaw common room and they can’t because they can’t figure out the answer, and they’re just screaming at each other.
[Jessica laughs]
Kat: I remember that.
Caleb: I think about this all the time.
Jessica: That’s incredible.
Eric: Oh my God.
Jessica: I haven’t seen that.
Eric: I haven’t thought about that in years.
Kat: Yeah, I’m pretty sure you can just google “Harry Potter in 15 minutes” and it will show it.
Caleb: Yeah. It’s hilarious. It’s a great read.
Eric: Right.
Caleb: That’s how the chapter ends: We see Alecto Carrow hitting the Dark Mark…
Jessica: No.
Caleb: … and Voldemort will be on his way shortly.
Jessica: Great.
Kat: It’s about to get real.
Jessica: Real real up in here.
Kat: Real fast. Yikes.
Jessica: [laughs] Oh, yeah.
Kat: So here we go. It’s time for another Podcast Question of the Week. This one is on our emerging hero, Mr. Neville Longbottom, and the question is as such: “Neville Longbottom steps forward in this chapter as a real figurehead, and a leader for the students who remain at Hogwarts – both inside and outside the Room of Requirement. And the last time that we saw Neville was actually at Dumbledore’s funeral back in Half-Blood Prince and we haven’t seen him since then. So Neville states in this chapter that there has been quite a drastic change through which he seems to have really risen to the unique challenge of becoming a leader and going through the change and everything at Hogwarts and has really excelled. So we’re wondering, what has been the major motivation for this evolution of Neville into what we really think of as a surrogate Harry? And what do you think that process looked like?” So head over to alohomora.mugglenet.com and give us your answers or send us an AudioBoom and we’ll play some of your responses and read some of your responses on next week’s episode.
Eric: Cool. I am looking forward to reading those replies.
Kat: Me, too. I love talking about Neville. I really do.
Eric: Yeah.
Kat: The could have been.
Eric: I forgot just how cool he is…
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: … until reading this chapter. So there you go. It was such a pleasure discussing this chapter, and especially with our guest host, Jessica. Thank you, Jessica, for joining us.
Jessica: Yeah, of course. This has been incredible. I’ve really enjoyed it. This is so fun.
Caleb: Well, we’re glad that you enjoyed it and you were able to make it on. And if you would like to be on the show like Jessica, there are spots available as we’re closing up the last few chapters of Deathly Hallows. Just head over to the “Be on the Show” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. All you need are just some simple headphones and you will be all set. There is no fancy equipment needed.
Kat: And if you want to keep in touch with us in the meantime you can find us on Twitter at @AlohomoraMN, [at] facebook.com/openthedumbledore; we’re on Tumblr at mnalohomorapodcast. Our Instagram is @alohomoramn. Our website, of course, as we’ve said a few times is alohomora.mugglenet.com. And don’t forget to grab your free ringtone while you’re over there checking it out. And, as always, you can send us an AudioBoom, which is free. All you need is an Internet connection and a microphone. Head over to the website, again, alohomora.mugglenet.com. Click the little green button in the right hand menu and leave us a message under 60 seconds and you could hear yourself on the show.
Eric: Yes. Also, we sell stuff.
Jessica: [laughs] Great.
[Eric and Jessica laugh]
Eric: Check out our fantastic, tried and tested, proven, exciting, very, very, very splendiferous Alohomora! store over at alohomoraspreadshirt.com, or you can just go to our website alohomora.mugglenet.com and click on “Store” at the upper right. Yes, that’s right. We sell stuff. Go check it out.
Kat: There’s going to be a single flip-flop on there since Micah bought just one last week, so…
[Eric and Jessica laugh]
Jessica: I’ll buy the other, okay?
Kat: Perfect. Micah, we’ve found you a match.
[Eric and Jessica laugh]
Caleb: Also, make sure to check out our smartphone app. You can download it for free. Just search “Podcast Source” in your phone’s app store. And that’s going to do it for this week’s episode of Alohomora! I’m Caleb Graves.
Eric: I’m Eric Scull.
[Show music begins]
Kat: And I’m Kat Miller. Thank you for listening to Episode 180 of Alohomora!
Eric: Open the portrait of Ariana Dumbledore.
[Show music continues]
Kat: So how would you say that username?
Eric: Ooh.
Jessica: Wok-in-shoe-tie-doo. [laughs] Wait a minute.
Kat: Woken-shut-a-duo? [laughs] I have no idea.
Jessica: Woken-shoot-a…
Eric: Shoe-tie-duo? Shoe-tie-duo?
Jessica: … shoe-tie-duo.
Eric: Wa-ken-shu-tie-duo.
Kat: Caleb is good with pronunciations. How would you say that?
Caleb: Yeah, I’m playing with it in my head right now.
Kat: Okay, good. [laughs]
Caleb: Woken-shoe-t… woken-shoe-t…
Eric: I envision a scene from A Beautiful Mind right now where it’s being written on the screen as he thinks about it.
[Kat laughs]
Caleb and Jessica: Woken…
Jessica: … shoe-tie-a-do.
Caleb: Wok-in-shoe-tie-duo. Wok-in-shoe-duh-duo.
Jessica: Wok-in-shoe-tie-do-oh.
Kat: Wok-in-shoe-di-duo?
Jessica: [laughs] Yes.
Kat: Well, it would be shut-i-duo, right?
Eric: Shoe-tie. There’s an “I,” though. Don’t forget the “I.”
Jessica: Shi-tie-do-oh?
Kat: But what if the “I” is silent?
Caleb: You just say that syllable tie as ta-duo.
Jessica: Wok-in-shoe-ta-duo.
Kat: Okay.
Eric: Fascinating.
Kat: Wok-in-shut-uh-duo. Wok-in-shut-uh-duo.
Caleb: Yeah.
Eric: Shoot-uh. Shoot-uh-duo.
Kat: Wok-in-shut-uh-duo. I’m going to butcher that.
