Transcripts

Transcript – Episode 165

[Show music begins]

Michael Harle: This is Episode 165 of Alohomora! for November 19, 2015.

[Show music continues]

Michael: Welcome back, listeners, to another episode of Alohomora!, MuggleNet.com’s global reread of the Harry Potter series. I’m Michael Harle.

Alison Siggard: I’m Alison Siggard.

Eric Scull: And I’m Eric Scull. And here with us today is our special guest, Ellie Fox! Hello, Ellie!

Ellie Fox: Hello!

Eric: Welcome to the show.

Ellie: Thanks for having me, I’m excited to be here.

Eric: It’s good to have you, especially for this awesome chapter which is sure to bring about good discussion. Tell us a little bit about yourself, though. What Hogwarts House are you?

Ellie: So I am a reluctant Hufflepuff, in that I love being a Hufflepuff now after I got my letter from Pottermore. My entire life I believed I was a Gryffindor. I started reading when I was eleven years old. I got the first book for my eleventh birthday and they came out every year, more or less, for the rest of my childhood so I grew up with Harry and I was so sure I was going to be a Gryffindor. And then, I resisted taking the Pottermore test because I didn’t want to be proven wrong, because I kind of knew in my heart that I wasn’t really a Gryffindor…

[Michael laughs]

Ellie: … and I took it and I got Hufflepuff and I started swearing and maybe crying a little bit, and then I read my letter and I was like, “No, that makes sense.”

Michael: Yeah, I think there was a lot of love and care put into that letter by Rowling…

Ellie: Yeah… the compensation letter went a long way.

Michael: The apology letter.

Ellie: Yes!

Eric: We talk about this so often! It really is that letter.

Ellie: Yeah! It’s sacred.

Alison: It’s so beautiful.

Michael: It is!

Eric: I mean, it was the same for me. That was what made it tolerable when I got that. Again, when I got the result I was the same way. I thought I was a Gryffindor…

Alison: Me too.

Ellie: Me too!

Eric: … dressed as a Gryffindor… actually, I still do…

Michael: Eric still dresses as a Gryffindor.

Alison: I had a full-on identity crisis.

Ellie: Oh my God. Yes.

Eric: So our whole panel is Hufflepuffs.

Everybody: Yay!

Alison: That’s so awesome!

Ellie: We’re so nice!

Eric: Hufflepuffs in the house!

Michael: We’re apparently all Windows users, too.

[Everyone laughs]

Ellie: Windows users, badgers, what else do we have in common? Let’s find out.

Michael: [laughs] Which kind of negates our usual statement at the end about Apple headphones, right?

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: I have an iPhone, though.

Michael: None of us are using Apple headphones!

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: I suppose you could still be using Apple headphones even if you’re on…

Eric: You guys, let’s all click on our Start menu right now.

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: Aww.

Michael: Because we have one.

Eric: Aww, Puff pride! It’s going to be great.

Ellie: We can right-click. Whoa!

Michael: I also have to say that I realized before recording that since I last was on the show, so many things have happened. First of all, and I think it’s worth addressing, especially because the recent chapters have discussed so much about this, but the very tragic attacks in multiple countries around the world…

Eric: Right.

Michael: Listeners, if you haven’t listened to our recent episodes, I highly suggest you do if you’re looking to delve further into being more observant about what the media is telling you about what is going on in the world right now. I think it’s kind of odd and a little unnerving how much our book discussion is lining up with that. Also, there was a plethora of new information about Harry Potter, as far as Fantastic Beasts, and Adele released a new song…

Alison: Yes, yes, yes!

Michael: Like, that’s how long I’ve been gone!

Alison: And Jessica Jones is on tomorrow. [laughs] It’s entertainment central.

Michael: It was just a lot of things in the world going on right now. But I did want to acknowledge that all of these tragedies have been happening in the world, not only because of our recent discussions, but also because I know we have a global listenership.

Eric: Yes.

Alison: Yep.

Michael: So to all of you who were in those affected countries, we send you our best wishes and our thoughts are with you. We are glad if you were able to join us on the show for this week’s discussion from Deathly Hallows, Chapter 15: “The Goblin’s Revenge.” So make sure and read that chapter before listening to the rest of this episode.

Alison: That’s good! No one will have read it ever, of course.

Michael: That’s true. [laughs]

Eric: For me, it was once.

Ellie: Really?

Alison: Eric’s missing out.

Eric: So, to sort of buffer the distance between me and this chapter, I’d like to talk about last week’s chapter. Of course, we had a great discussion over on our last episode which was relating to Chapter 14: “The Thief.” And as always, immediately following the discussion, the discussion continued over on our Alohomora! website. So I’ve got a selection of comments here and first, I just want to clear up general housekeeping. A listener on our thread asked, this was SilverDoe25… “The camping has begun. Does this mean we won’t see Eric for 14 chapters from the end?” Well, SilverDoe, hopefully this episode answers your question so that I won’t have to. I’m back, and I’m going to be grinning and bearing most of the camping.

Michael: I’m so glad you’re here for this, Eric…

Eric: Thank you.

Michael: … because there’s parts of this chapter that we’ll be getting into that I was gritting my teeth about and I was like, “Eric will agree with me. So it’s fine.”

Eric: “Eric will hate this more than me! It’s fine.”

Michael: Yes. “Eric will outdo my hate.”

[Ellie laughs]

Eric: It’s true, it’s true.

Michael: And then Alison will balance with her love.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: Yes, and it’s funny, because Puffs among us, we are still divided over certain points. It will make for a great discussion.

Michael: … I was like “Eric will agree with me, so it’s fine.”

Eric: “Eric will hate this more than me!”

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: “Eric will out-do my hate.”

Eric: Yes. It’s true, it’s true.

Michael: And then Alison will balance it with her love.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: Yes, and it’s funny. Because Puffs, among us, we are still divided over certain points and it will make for a great discussion. But I think that… last week, actually having the chapter last week was a very cathartic experience because I was able to point out the line on which the camping started.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: And I hope to still be here when the camping ends, so we’ll do it, but yeah… okay, so back to, or actually starting on our recap comments for Chapter 14: “The Thief.” We’re talking about, first, about splinching…

Michael: Ugh.

Eric: And so we have a comment from HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis, who says,

“Ron got splinched during side-along Apparition. They escaped from the ministry in two steps, first it was Harry grabbing his friends and taking them to the front steps of Grimmauld Place, then Hermione takes them to the forest where the Quidditch World Cup was held. We know Ron failed his apparition test, but it’s not his fault this time. I didn’t realize that people could get splinched if they are the along-party in a side-along apparition, because they are not the ones performing the magic. Side-Along apparition is supposed to be a way for parents to get their underage kids to safety in case of emergencies. If someone who has passed their test and is clearly capable of apparating like Hermione can’t take someone else along safely, then this form of travelling is way more dangerous than I was aware of. Is it the rapid succession of two apparitions that causes the injury or can insufficient determination, deliberation and destination in the person apparating have an effect on the people clinging on?”

Now, I will get all of our panel’s thoughts on this, but first, one of the replies added to this discussion in such a significant way that I’d like to read that first before we delve into the topic. DoraNympha replied to this comment and said,

“I don’t think it was Hermione’s haste or lack of concentration, I think it was the fact that Ron was focused on Grimmauld Place very much. Reaching his destination was a matter of life and death, so he had all his body and mind on getting back to Grimmauld Place. He, like Harry, might also not have noticed that Yaxley was still holding onto Hermione so he had no reason to stop trying to get back into the house by the time Hermione had fought Yaxley off and grabbed the boys to take them to the woods. Hermione had to Apparate and Side-Along Apparate not one but two people with her at a split-second’s notice, one of whom was still determined to be at Grimmauld Place quite strongly. I think this is why Ron got splinched.”

So actually, DoraNympha proposes that Ron may have been more concentrated on staying, and that might be why Ron failed even though HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis points out that it was, in fact, Hermione who transported them to begin with.

Michael: God, we’re already turning against Ron in the recap comments.

Alison: No.

Michael: I thought that was going to be saved for the…

[Everyone laughs]

Ellie: Never too early.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: It is a safe place. Turning against Ron? I don’t think anyone is turning against Ron.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Never.

Eric and Michael: Never.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: I… the only… because I don’t think we have any confirmation on this, but the only context I can… the only textual evidence I can think for this is Harry’s reaction during this moment because he actually seems to be very aware that something goes wrong and he kind of puts all of the control into Hermione’s hands once he realizes that there’s something wrong. And because the narration is all through Harry’s perspective in that moment.

Eric: Right.

Michael: So that would explain, I suppose, why Harry didn’t get hurt. And, of course, Harry has previous experience – a lot more extensive previous experience – with Side-Along, but that would be an interesting way to explain why Ron is so drastically damaged and it’s so dramatic compared to previous splinchings we’ve seen.

Ellie: Well, it’s also worth noting, can people be Side-Alonged against their will? Could you kidnap someone by Side-Along Apparition because he didn’t know where they were going, so she was…

Alison: Oh, yeah.

Ellie: … essentially taking him away from his place, the place he wanted to be. So maybe… I really like DoraNympha’s point on this, but it made me think about somebody being taken maybe by Snatchers. Could they Side-Along someone without their consent?

Alison: Yes, they can because they do it later in this book.

Ellie: Okay. So in that case, I don’t know that DoraNympha’s thing is necessarily canon, although I love the idea. I think it’s really good…

Eric: Yeah.

Ellie: … well, it’s well-reasoned.

Alison: Yeah, I think it could be a little bit of both. It could be maybe Ron just didn’t realize anything was wrong, and so he just thought they were stopping. And it could be Hermione was in such a panic to fight off Yaxley and then get them out of there that she didn’t quite get everything – the three Ds – all together, and…

Ellie: She didn’t manage to perfectly Apparate three people by herself.

Alison: Yeah, yeah.

Eric: Oh, geez. Hermione…

Ellie: Lame.

Eric: … she fails. So lame.

Ellie: Clearly not the actual hero of this story, I guess.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: God, Hermione!

Eric: Oh, man.

Michael: Get it together.

Eric: No but she shot a curse, she didn’t just shake off Yaxley. She shot a repelling jinx or something?

Ellie: Does she?

Michael: No. Hermione’s the best.

Ellie: Well, yes.

Eric: Yes.

Ellie: We all knew that. That was a fact of life, but…

Eric: She said she cursed him in the last chapter. I think that was the line. But yeah she has a lot of other things to concentrate on. So I thought that was an interesting discussion as to why Ron got Splinched. For those of you who didn’t tune in to last week’s episode, that was the chapter that Ron got Splinched and…

[Ellie and Michael laugh]

Ellie: [unintelligible] to mentioned that.

Eric: … and also the chapter… last week we talked about Ron being like a superhero and MVP because he was tuned into the Taboo many, many chapters before we actually learned that that’s a thing. More comments that I’ve grabbed from last week talk about the Taboo, and here are a couple of the comments. Firstly, from Buckbeak is my spirit animal:

“I think there’s a really cool ‘writerly’ thing going on in this chapter with the Taboo. We hear the trio almost say Voldemort A BUNCH of times and it doesn’t really occur to us to think that it’s weird. Ron is being persistent so we go with it. But. One of the big things that really helps us not realize it’s going on is that Harry keeps thinking Voldemort’s name. We see Voldemort’s name in thought or legilimenception six times and these non-dialogue mentions of Voldemort keeps the reader from realizing what’s going on. We keep seeing the word in Harry’s internal dialogue and we don’t realize that the trio isn’t actually speaking it.”

That gets into talking about the Taboo. I think that’s probably exactly it, right? She’s hiding the fact that none of them are speaking Voldemort. If I’m remembering correctly, by the time you finally realize – you hear about the Taboo being a thing – they haven’t spoken it in all of that time.

Ellie: Don’t speak it because Ron feels really uncomfortablewith it. Which again I think is because he’s the only one who was raised in the wizarding world. He’s the one who, when he comes back, tells them about the Taboo. They stop speaking it because it makes him uncomfortable, and then they just carry on not saying it because they’ve gotten in the habit.

Eric: Even though he’s gone.

Ellie: Even though he’s gone. It’s like somebody around you saying “I hate the word ‘moist’,” so you stop saying “moist”.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: I don’t like that word either. So let’s go into… okay, so RoseLumos commented,

“This time when reading the book, Ron’s detection of the taboo reminded me of Dumbledore in the cave looking for the entrance and later for the chain to the boat. Dumbledore did all of this by sensing the magic in the air. I wonder if that’s how Ron discovered the magic around Voldemort’s name. Do you think he sensed that as Harry and Hermione was saying the name that there was some layer or magic floating around? It would be very advanced magic, but maybe since Ron was injured he was more in tune with nature and magic and could sense something was around? It may be a stretch, but it would be cool.”

I think we did actually ask a very similar question last week about Ron being in tune to the magic. Another user… hang on, there’s a train. This is my favorite username ever.

Michael: This is great. [laughs]

Eric: We say that in like every…

Michael: Oh, but this one is just precious.

Ellie: [laughs] This one is… yeah, this is new.

Eric: So a user replied. A user by the name of Ginevra’sLowCutDress.

[Michael laughs]

Alison: Ginerva’sLowCutDress, maybe?

Eric: Nah, Ginevra.

Michael: Ginevra.

Ellie: Yeah, it’s Ginevra.

Eric: Ginevra.

Ellie: It’s Ginny’s full name.

Eric: Ginevra’sLowCutDress.

Michael: It’s not pretty, but it’s a name.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Just call her Ginny.

Michael: Yep. Ginny’sLowCutDress.

Eric: Maybe that was already taken. Maybe there’s a Ginny’sLowCutDress that I’ve yet to meet over on the site. Okay. Ginevra’sLowCutDress… also, there’s more to this comment, which is all interesting, but I’ve just kept the last half of it, sorry.

“I also always viewed Ron’s insistence on not saying the V-word as a way of clinging to his home life and his memories of time with his family. He grew up not saying the V-word in his comfortable, loving home. He has been ripped from that life to camping in a forest/trying to destroy an evil dictator at the age of 17. I think demanded Harry and Hermione don’t say the V-word is his way of feeling more at home and somehow making himself feel at bit more protected, even if he doesn’t consciously realize it.”

So Ginevra kind of says, Ellie, what you were saying too. He was raised not saying the name, and the suggestion is that he’s just kind of retreating to what he’s comfortable doing. He’s basically regressing in age here by retreating back to his childhood fear of the name.

Ellie: There’s definitely some of that in this chapter.

Michael: Yeah.

Ellie: Ronald regressions.

Michael: I’ve never been a fan of how this plays out narratively because I think… this is going to sound… everyone is going to flip their lids when I say this, but this… this seems lazy to me. Ron’s excuse, which is just like, “I just feel it.” Ron is… I love the idea that Ron could be in tune with deeper magic, but he has never shown an inclination of that before. Why now?

Alison: Yeah.

Ellie: [laughs] Actually, he has! He had a surprisingly accurate portrayal the first time they were doing fortune-telling.

Alison: Yep.

Ellie: All of the fortunes that he told actually came true, if you look at later in the book.

Michael: Yeah, but see, that goes back to that thing. I’d be interested to see what Rowling even intends that to be because I still see that as that fun thing for the reader like, “Oh, these came true!” Because Ron is not the only one who does that. Harry does it a few times, too. And Trelawney does it a few times when you don’t think she’s actually in her state where she should be able to tell the future. So I’m curious if that is meant to indicate something more about Ron’s magical abilities, or if that is just Rowling being like, “Tee hee, look what I did.” Because I always feel that that’s more what that is.

Eric: It’s more like a narrative joke than a character moment.

Michael: Yes, than a canon moment for Ron’s character. Because if that is the case, I just don’t… and we’ll talk about this more in the chapter, but I think Ron grows in a lot of ways, but his magical prowess is not one of them, sadly, in my opinion, I think. And we’ll see a lot of that issue come up in this chapter head on. But yeah, I was never a fan of how this goes because it just seems like Rowling tried to structure it in a different way, and she just couldn’t figure it out, so she was like, “Ron just feels it.”

Alison: Well, but…

Eric: It’s nice for them to have a victory because they have so much going against them in this book.

Michael: Yes.

Eric: And all of which is… I mean, that’s one of my favorite things about being present for these chapters – “Silver Doe” – is to point out again these issues that are basically… it’s all in the writing, where Jo keeps piling on problems for them.

Alison and Michael: Mhm.

Eric: Even in this chapter, with the damn, “Oh, there’s not just one sword they have to find; it’s two because one’s a fake!

[Michael laughs]

Eric: It’s so many damn setbacks that it’s nice… we’re supposed to be relieved that they all dodged a bullet because Ron just felt it. That’s meant to be a counterpoint to all of the other things that they’re up against. It’s not; because Ron is a little bitch about it…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … but I mean, I think it’s intended to be that way. So I like the idea that, hey, they just got that one free. They didn’t get themselves in trouble because Ron just had a feeling. And I also like these psychological reasons that our listeners are getting into.

Alison: But I…

Michael: Well… go ahead, Alison.

Alison: Thanks. I said this last week, but I’ve always felt that Ron is the most intuitive of the trio, especially when it comes to magic because magic has been a part of his entire life; his entire existence. And so I think he understands a little bit more of the intuition – the feeling part of magic – than Harry or Hermione do. So this makes sense to me, that Ron could feel like there’s something wrong here because he’s more in touch with this magic that you can’t really explain, I think, than Harry and Hermione are.

Michael: To the credit on that theory, if we’re just taking it textually, Ron does say that he can “feel it.” And Harry and Hermione can’t, in the way that he’s describing.

Eric: Right.

Michael: I guess the other thing that bothers me about this – that I’ve just always found so odd about this whole mini plot point – is that Rowling has worked so hard to teach us in the early books, thanks to Dumbledore, that fear of a name increases the fear of the thing itself. And Hermione and Harry, I think, especially have taken that to heart, and it has been a very…

Eric: But now it’s turned on its head?

Michael: Yeah, it’s been a very heartening thing for them. And yeah, to have it turned on its head that way… I get why; it’s a very clever move on Voldemort’s part. I wonder… ooh! If you say it with a “t”, do you think it still works?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yes, because the “t” comes last.

Michael: The “t” comes last so you’ve already still said it.

Eric: Yeah, you could be saying “Voldemort” [pronounces as “Vol-de-mor-tuh”]

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: … but they’ll be coming because you said “Voldemort”, not because of the “tuh”.

Michael: [laughs] Voldy.

Eric: But if his name were Voldemort [pronounces the “t”] and you were saying “Voldemort” [pronounces as “Vol-de-mor”], you would be able to get away completely free because you did not say the full taboo.

Michael: Aha.

Eric: That’s what it is.

Ellie: Because it’s not the intention.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Eric: So going back to splinching just for a moment; SilverDoe25 pointed out there was one major splinching previously. Or I’m sure there were a couple, but Susan Bones left one of her legs behind during the class, and I wanted to bring that up. A lot of our users were talking about it like, “Why wasn’t she bleeding to death? Because there [are] major arteries in the leg.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: And I think a lot of listeners agreed that it was because the teachers were all present and stuff. But just seeing the intensity of the splinching and the realness of what the trio has gotten themselves into, again, leads into this chapter because last chapter was very short, but it really is the beginning of these guys roughing it alone, and I think that that thematically ties into everywhere we’re going with this chapter discussion, so I liked that the discussion largely centered around splinching and the taboo. So just wrapping up, I’d like to give a shout-out first of all to user Griff, who says, and I quote,

“Sometimes I go back and reread *just* the camping chapters, for their focus on the trio and their character development.”

Griff is not the only one; plenty of other people came forward after that and said, “Yes, I too just read the camping chapters!” So you guys are all having a party over on the Alohomora! site.

Michael: It’s like an AA meeting for people who read the camping chapters.

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: Okay, in support of those people, those camping chapters are some of her most lyrical writing, I think, in all the books.

Eric: Hmm.

Alison: Because in the rest of the time, she’s almost more cinematic [and] she’s more action-based, but when they’re camping and there’s not a lot of action, I think she has some of her most beautiful prose [that] just comes out. One of my favorite passages is at the beginning of “The Life and Lies of Albus Dumbledore” when it’s just describing Harry sitting watching the sunrise and feeling, and it just blows me away every time. It’s just gorgeous. So I like these chapters, too.

Eric: I’m definitely noticing there is quite a high quality of writing in this book that I overlooked before, yeah. I couldn’t have put it as well as you just put it, but I would completely agree with that, Alison. So shout-outs – because as always, there are just so many more comments that we can’t get to on this abridged recap – to users Mischief Managed, SocksAreImportant, SubjectiveUnicorn, ThatTimeRemusWaddiwassiedVoldy, which… I don’t think that… maybe that was in fan fic? I don’t know.

Ellie: Totally happened.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: And Slyvenpuffdor.

Michael: Wow.

Eric: Did Remus Waddiwasi Voldy?

Michael: No.

Ellie: Yeah! He shot a… God, like a wad of paper or a spitball at the back of Quirrell’s head.

Alison: What?

Michael: No, that’s Sorcerer’s Stone. That’s Fred and George.

Alison: With the snowballs.

Eric: Yeah, Fred and George threw snowballs.

Ellie: Oh.

Michael: They do that with a snowball, yeah.

Alison: That is still the greatest thing they’ve ever done.

Michael: But it’s a nice thought.

Eric: Suffice to say, these usernames bend canon.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: A lot! But in ways we like.

Eric: In ways we usually like.

Michael: That’s how I would’ve liked Deathly Hallows to have ended.

[Alison laughs]

Ellie: According to the Wiki, he shot it at Peeves, actually.

Alison: Yeah, it’s Peeves.

Michael: Yeah, he shoots the gum up Peeves’s nose.

Eric: Yeah, he’s picking the lock.

Ellie: Yeah, he Waddiwasi‘d Peeves. But that’s how Voldemort should have been defeated: Gum.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, he doesn’t have a nose.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Guess he’s still got a cavity.

Michael: Yeah. That’s too bad.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: Well, that concludes our chapter discussion recaps.

Alison: And so now we’ll move on to our Podcast Question of the Week responses for this week. And just if you forgot what our question was, it was,

“The trio finally gets their hands on the locket Horcrux, yet just like the last time they held it, cannot open it. Looking forward, when they do finally get the locket open, we see what the portion of Voldy’s soul has become: Growing, learning, and reacting to the innermost thoughts and fears of the three. If the locket were to open now, so soon after their retrieving it from Umbridge, what would appear? Would they see visions of Umbridge and what the soul has learned from her? Would the soul manifest itself in the same way with figures made of smoke? Or would there be a tiny metallic beating heart, like Harry guesses?”

Michael: [laughs] The way you guys phrased that, I could just hear… I don’t know why, but I could hear Benedict Cumberbatch doing Smaug: “Is your heart beating?”

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Michael: That’s what I think of. Wrong series entirely, right?

Alison: See, I was thinking Edgar Allen Poe, so…

[Michael laughs]

Eric: I hear a… yeah, it’s very Poe-like. “Tell-Tale Heart.”

Michael: [laughs] Yeah. I like that.

Eric: And also I hear a teapot going off in the background and then Harry doing his pincers. [makes pincer sounds]

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: What?

Eric: So that’s what I hear.

Ellie: I just keep imagining her horrible little giggle, where she’s like, “Hee-hee!”

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: Ugh.

Eric: Yeah.

Ellie: Cringe forever.

Alison: All right, well, our first comment comes from Mischief Managed, who says,

“I think the locket would have still fought back like we see, but not quite as effectively. I think even in short moments it can glean something, but the longer it is held, the stronger its connection to those it is trying to effect gets. So it would probably go after Harry the most – since he is also a [H]orcrux, maybe it can connect with him more easily and be able to find those deep dark secrets a bit more than [with] the other two? So we would see visions of Harry’s loved ones dead or maybe a Dementor… Or perhaps, instead of being able to bring up specific fears (such as Ron’s fear that Harry and Hermione are falling in love) since it has not been with the trio long enough to learn these, it would have tried to show some more generalized fears or taken the form of Voldemort himself to try to scare whoever attempted to destroy it. I think it would have manifested in the same way we see with the smoke figures, whatever it attempted to do.”

And this was one of the major camps of the responses this week, so Mischief Managed was the one I picked to represent that.

Eric: Yeah. That’s nice.

Michael: I really like the piece that Mischief Managed brought up about the fact that Harry is a Horcrux. And joining the two together; does that maybe give an advantage to the locket Horcrux to see into Harry more than to the other two? It’s always hard for me to understand… I wish… it would be nice to have more clarification from Rowling on how Harry’s Horcrux works because I always see Harry as kind of the equivalent of a sleeper agent with his Horcrux.

Alison: Mhm.

Michael: His doesn’t function like other Horcruxes do.

Eric: Right. He’s an accidental Horcrux.

Michael: Yes. I mean, to be fair, pretty much everybody who is around him is miserable and has a horrible life.

Alison: [laughs] Oh, man!

Michael: [laughs] Well, it does seem to happen, doesn’t it?

Alison: I think Ginny in Book 6 would disagree with you.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Yes. Those wonderful, sunlit afternoons by the beech tree.

[Alison laughs]

Ellie: That we never see.

Michael: We never saw those.

Eric: We never saw because Harry’s Horcrux affected Jo and she tore those pages out. We know this.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Ellie: Or they’re just having some teenaged privacy.

Michael: That’s the nicer…

Eric: Nah.

Michael: Fanfic.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: But that’s… I don’t know if the Horcrux would have an advantage with Harry because, I mean, as we’ll see in this chapter, Harry is obviously not the one who is affected the worst by it.

Eric: Eh, debatable.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: Yes, we will debate that.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: But yeah, I’m in that similar camp, that the Horcrux wouldn’t have had time to learn all of their deepest, darkest secrets, right?

Eric: Right, and at least it knows what Voldemort looks like because it’s part of Voldemort. I think the easiest form that it would be able to take would be Voldemort’s at whatever age it was that he created it.

Michael: Mhm.

Ellie: I’m just trying to remember, what did the book do when he decided to kill it? It already had Riddle incarnate at that point; he was semi-viscous or something.

Alison: Yeah.

Ellie: And he didn’t really try to scare him or anything, right? He was just present.

Michael: I think that took that particular Horcrux by surprise because it was already sentient, like you said, and it had already thought that it was winning. And Harry did the action so quickly that the Horcrux didn’t even have time to react. And of course, though, that’s the other thing, too. The Horcrux wasn’t feeding off of Harry; it was feeding off of Ginny.

Alison: Yeah.

Ellie: That book seems so poorly defended, though, compared to all the rest of them.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Ellie: It’s a book made of paper.

Eric: Knowing that you’re going down into a chamber where there are basilisks, okay, sure, that could be a problem.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: But again, I think it was just… that was luck. That was the same thing; that was Ron being like, “I just feel it. Oh, this happens to be one of the few substances in the entire world that can destroy a Horcrux. Here, Harry, take it.”

[Michael laughs]

Alison: Well, there’s also the fact that Dumbledore speculates that Voldemort didn’t really care necessarily if that one got destroyed because he had his other ones. That one had more of a mission of “Open up the Chamber again” than being his Horcrux.

Eric: Right. Yes. And that is… right.

Ellie: Yeah, that makes sense.

Michael: Yeah. That’s always been such a weird inconsistency to me with the Horcruxes, is that Voldemort was like, “This one will go on a mission, and then this one will stay in its little cave, and this one will…” Was he…?

[Alison laughs]

Eric: No, I don’t think it’s weird. I think the… sorry, go on.

Michael: Oh, I was just going to say that if he had maybe succeeded in his endeavors, would the Horcruxes have been even maybe saved for other things? Maybe he would have used them in similar ways to the way that he used the diary.

Eric: I think that the goal here is just to show – and this is in Book 6 when they’re figuring this stuff out – that he didn’t just make one, which is possibly the farthest any other wizard got to. He didn’t just make one; in fact, he made so many that he can send one of them on a mission.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: He can just be like, “This one is dedicated to this.”

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: Because a Horcrux serves a very specific purpose: To keep you around; your soul tethered to this earth somehow. But if he can also… if he made so many that he can actually put one, in a way, in harm’s way, then that’s terrifying. That’s what’s meant to be [gasps] the shock moment…

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: … is that he became careless even with his most highly guarded secret.

Ellie: Well, and he became careless with his own soul. It shows that he has no concept of purity for life anymore, or sanctity of life. Because he’s like…

Eric: Yeah.

Ellie: … “Oh yeah, I’ve got another piece of that; I can throw that away.”

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Michael: Yeah, Voldemort’s a derp.

[Alison laughs]

Ellie: What a derp he is.

[Michael laughs]

Alison: All right, well, our next comment comes from pure-muggle, who says – speaking of the diary,

“When Harry found the diary he was drawn to it and kept [leafing] through it. The diary manipulated whoever found it into getting close to it. I think the locket – in its own way – does the same. When they found it in Grimmauld Place, they tried to open it and then threw it away. I believe the locket wanted to leave that house; it could sense the inner desires of each person [who held] it, and it perhaps knew that it was in the most dangerous place it could be. Similarly, I don’t think it was a coincidence that Umbridge took a liking to it. It charmed her (like Riddle charmed so many) and knew that she could give it some safety and a place it could thrive off of her special kind of evil. I think the journey of the locket shows us just how charming and manipulative it can be. So what would happen if they opened it now? It would appear to be a weak, innocent victim – for two reasons. Firstly, it wants to appeal to the kind and hero natures of Harry (and Ron and Hermione, who suffer from the same ‘saving people thing’) – this is perhaps its only chance of surviving. Secondly, it’s just spent time with Umbridge, and no one can pull off sickeningly sweet as well as she can!”

Ellie: Here, here.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: So, it would show up as like an orphan boy? Like Oliver Twist would come out of the locket…

[Alison laughs]

Eric: … and be like, “I’m innocent.” [laughs]

Michael: See, the advantage that the diary has though is that Harry, Ginny, people who interacted with it, didn’t know what it was.

Alison: Exactly.

Michael: They know what the locket is.

Eric: Well, not when they’re first shaking it. This is why I really actually like this comment. When they’re in Book 5 trying to open it, I love the idea that the locket…

Michael: They touched it.

Eric: … kind of really retreated in and of itself like, “I’m not even going to appear to be like a tiny, possibly, metallic beating heart on the inside.” It’s like, “I’m going to really just be quiet now because there’s members of significant magical skill that are trying to open me right now.” Even if it was just for a second, nobody got a weird enough reading…

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: … off of that locket that they set it aside or paid any mind to it…

Michael: Hmm.

Eric: Other than, “Hey, this is something fun to do while we’re trying to knock off of actually cleaning.”

Alison: Yeah. I like the idea in this comment that it almost makes the locket a little bit more sentient and kind of… mal… malicious – I can’t talk today [laughs] – and that’s just fascinating. I like that they mentioned that it could have been charming, the way that Tom Riddle was. Because that feels like a piece… that sounds a lot like a piece of Voldemort than anything else, you know?

Ellie: Well, and that’s Harry’s first impulse when he sees the piece of Voldemort that was in him, that it looks weak… like a flayed creature…

Michael: Mhm, yeah.

Ellie: … or some terribly, sympathetic image, and he wants to help it.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: Oh, that’s the Voldy fetus thing?

Ellie: Yeah…

Alison and Michael: Yeah.

Ellie: The Voldy fetus thing at King’s Cross Station… at King’s Cross Heaven.

Eric: Yeah, right! And he wants to save it, and Dumbledore’s like, “Oh, that thing, just leave it there.”

Ellie: “That thing’s super gross, don’t touch it.” But like…

Alison: “There’s nothing you can do.”

Ellie: Yeah, and I think this is really well-thought just because…

Eric: I will say that the diary was charming.

Ellie: Oh, yeah.

Eric: The diary, but in a different way through writing, really enthralled Ginny and told her… I mean, I know Voldemort or Tom Riddle was making fun of her, but he basically allowed her to confide in it the way she would a diary and then wrote back appropriately… at least for the initial period of time that it took him to get that hold over her. He’d be really… I wouldn’t say he earned it, but that diary worked really hard to gain what it did.

Alison: Yeah.

Ellie: Oh my God, Ginny got catfished by the diary.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I think that the locket is another item that is really specially well-thought out because when you’re wearing it you wear it so close to your heart, and that’s metaphorically where all of your emotional power resides. And so, again you have this thing and it’s like his cross to bear to carry it around. But it’s so close to how he’s feeling that it can feed off of that, and I guess that is also why I find it very poetic. So it’s like a diary you can write to, and Ginny did pour her soul into it literally. But with the locket it’s also special in that way that it’s again close to your heart and can charm you or possibly reveal itself as being something that’s not entirely evil.

Michael: Well, yeah. Discounting Harry and Nagini the snake, the other objects are things that you have to physically interact with to use…

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: … and that come close to important parts of you. The tiara you would wear on your head near your brain; you would have the ring on your finger, which as we saw, affected Dumbledore horribly; and I’m assuming at the very least with Hufflepuff’s Cup, if you are not drinking from it, which you’d be touching it with your mouth, you would have to hold it. So, the diary has ways… not just the diary, but all of these objects have ways to physically interact with you, get close to you, get close to parts of you that are telling about you.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Michael: So that’s interesting. I don’t know if that was necessarily something that Voldemort was thinking of because he was looking for objects of renown.

Eric: Of significance.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: And I don’t know… again, that’s kind of brilliant. And I don’t know that that’s something that we ever learned in the books about Horcruxes. Because ideally you would want to just hide a Horcrux away…

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: … and bury it forever so that it’s never found. But all of Voldemort’s [Horcruxes] can be interacted with in the physical world.

Michael: Yeah, the snake is the oddity one. Harry, I don’t count because Voldemort didn’t intend that one.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: But the snake is the odd one out. He was just like, “Who cares?” by that point.

Alison: Well, he also, though, uses Nagini in a very… what was the word you used? What was the phrase you said? It’s a very close interaction. He uses this snake to kill people.

Michael: Yeah. That’s true.

Alison: This snake actually goes and bites people and kills them. [laughs] That’s a very close connection thing.

Michael: And that’s another question I have with that: as far as Nagini being a Horcrux, is she also like Harry in that her Horcrux acts like a sleeper agent and doesn’t affect her actual behavior? Then we have the issue too that Voldemort can, of course, possess her a lot easier and look through her eyes.

Eric: Well, isn’t it said that it’s not wise to trust another…

Michael: Living being?

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: … with your soul? Yeah, living being. As if it could say, “Ah, I don’t want this now anymore. Go away!”

Michael: [laughs] Yeah, it’s funny that… I can’t imagine what… if the Horcrux within Nagini detected a threat, would it act in the same way?

Eric: Fight back?

Michael: Yeah. Would it do what these other Horcruxes did, or was it somehow using Nagini to do that?

Eric: Yeah, that’s weird. But we’re getting off topic.

Alison: Yeah, we can get to that in a few chapters. Our last comment for today comes from Casey L, who says,

“I’m guessing the piece of soul would have detected the most emotionally vulnerable of the three of them and manifested itself pretty much the same way as we later see. At this point, though, I don’t think that’s Ron – it’s too soon after they started. He’s physically unwell but still pretty strong emotionally. It could be Harry, but Hermione seems most likely to me. Maybe she sees Harry and Ron dead or her parents, and I’m not sure she could have destroyed it in those circumstances. I’d imagine Harry or Ron might have had to step in. If the [H]orcrux did to her what it did to Ron, though, showing him with another girl… well, that’s a completely different story. I don’t think the locket would have picked up much on the others who had it before the trio. It seems safe to say Regulus, Kreacher and Mundungus never would have worn it. Clearly Umbridge did, but she wore it like a piece of jewelry, and it seems likely she would have taken it off regularly. A lot of the time when the trio wears it, it seems they put it under their clothes, so it’s closer to their skin and especially their hearts, and it seems that would make it easier for the [H]orcrux to pick up on their vulnerabilities.”

Michael: So wear two layers.

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Eric: Yeah, lead.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: Wear a lead vest like you’re going to the dentist, children. But I think too the idea that Umbridge… I’m trying to think… it’s possible that… I’m sure Umbridge wasn’t consciously aware that there was a living entity – a piece of soul – in that locket that she was wearing. But she was certainly fond of it, and I do think she wore it often enough for it to be feeding off of her. Only because I like to believe that some of the evil atrocities that she has committed were influenced by having that thing so close to her.

Alison: Mhm.

Ellie: Except she only had it for less than a month, and all the things they were doing had to have a lot…

Eric: Is that true?

Alison: No…

Ellie: Yes, look at the timeline. Because they planned for a month…

Michael: I questioned that last episode, too.

Ellie: They planned for a month. And Mundungus, I think, had given it away earlier than that.

Michael: Yeah, because he raided Sirius’s house in Book 6…

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: … right after Sirius died. But then he went back for other stuff, too.

Michael: Yeah, he’s gone back, that’s true. He went back multiple times.

Eric: He has gone back and Umbridge didn’t have it in Book 5. But I am thinking that it was much longer than a month… I like the idea that basically Voldemort influenced the government a year before he intended to because one of the top ranking officials had part of his soul around her neck. I like that idea, even if it’s not canon.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: And I apologize if I’m way off and it was only a month.

Michael: I don’t know if I would agree with Casey L, that Hermione is necessarily the most vulnerable of the three at the start.

Eric: I would say emotionally vulnerable given…

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: Oh, yeah.

Eric: … of this coming chapter.

Michael: More emotionally available…

Ellie: Better than a teaspoon.

Michael: [laughs] I think they’re all… as far as saying… happening in an earlier point, I think all three of them are kind of equally vulnerable. Because I was thinking about the previous comment from pure-muggle about what the locket could have done to charm them. Like the only thing that they are wanting for is food, so the locket was like, “Here’s a sandwich.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “Hello, I’m a turkey leg!”

Ellie: Bacon sandwich…

Michael: “This sandwich isn’t evil at all. It’s the only sandwich you can eat right now. Mwa-ha-ha!”

Eric: “There’s no bacon on it… that’s the most evil sandwich I’ve ever seen!”

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: But I don’t know if the locket would have been able to… I think the locket could have targeted any of them at that point earlier, and it might have had an effect of some kind. Or maybe it would have targeted all three of them together at once.

Alison: Yeah. I wonder how that would have worked, you know? How would it have happened?

Michael: Well… at the least we know, they have a shared insecurity of what to do next.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: So maybe the locket would latch onto the fact that they feel that their quest is hopeless and that they…

Ellie: Could have been they see Dumbledore coming and telling them he lied to them.

Alison and Michael: Ooh!

Ellie: If this was me and I was the three of them, the most horrifying thing that could happen at that point would be Dumbledore showing up and telling them he was working with Voldemort all along and he set them up.

Michael: Oh, snap!

Alison: Oh my gosh!

Michael: [laughs] I like that. I actually really like that. Yeah, I think that plays on their biggest fear…

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: … because all three of them are so uncertain about Dumbledore’s plan.

Eric: The one thing that they have going for them is that they know that they’ve captured a Horcrux and they know that this is what this is. So regardless of what appearance it takes – or what form it tries to, if it tries to charm them, [and] anything it does or says – if Harry were to figure out how to open it before the very last second, I think the one advantage is that they are pure of heart and that they know that this is going to be manipulative…

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: … because Voldemort was manipulative.

Alison: Mhm. Yep.

Ellie: There’s always that.

Alison: Well, that wraps up our comments on that for the week. And you can go read all of them on our website at alohomora.mugglenet.com.

Michael: And now, time for more camping with Chapter 15…

Eric: Yay!

Michael: Eric’s favorite thing.

Eric: [chants] Camp-ing, camp-ing, camp-ing…

[Michael laughs]

Eric: All right.

Ellie: Grab your backpacks!

[Eric and Michael laugh]

[Deathly Hallows Chapter 15 intro begins]

[Sound of wind and rain]

Harry: Chapter 15.

Hermione: Ron, no! Please, come back! Come back!

Harry: “The Goblin’s Revenge.”

Hermione: Ron! Come back, Ron! Ron!

[Sound of Ron Disapparating]

[Deathly Hallows Chapter 15 intro ends]

Kat: Before we move into this week’s main discussion, we want to take a moment to thank our sponsors, Audible. We have some great news for you, Potterheads: the Harry Potter series was just released for download on Audible. We’re so excited, and Audible has over 180,000 titles. So even if you already own the Harry Potter audiobooks, there are many other options for you to choose from. You can listen to the download direct on your computer via their free apps for iOS, Android, or Windows, and even on your MP3 player or on your Kindle. So head over to audiblepodcast.com/open and you can download Harry Potter or any other book of your choosing for free as part of your 30-day free trial membership. That URL again is audiblepodcast.com/open – one more time, that’s audiblepodcast.com/open – so head over there and get started today.

Michael: Officially in hiding, Harry, Ron and Hermione attempt to begin their Horcrux hunt in earnest, but scarce clues and disbelief in one another’s theories hinders their progress, while the lack of food increases the tension levels – most notably from Ron, the least prepared for a nomadic lifestyle. Adding to their already miserable circumstances, the trio shares the burden of wearing the Horcrux locket, its magic imparting multiple detrimental symptoms on the wearer. Following weeks of little progress, the trio happens to overhear a conversation of another party in hiding nearby, consisting of Dean Thomas, Ted Tonks, Dirk Cresswell, the Gringotts goblins Gornuk and Griphook… wow, those names, right?

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Michael: Their discourse proves a valuable treasure trove of leads for the trio, from potential Horcrux information to the goings-on in Hogwarts and the wider wizarding world, knowledge further validated by a chat with the portrait of Phineus Nigellus. But one of the trio does not find the new intel cause for celebration. Vocalizing his frustrations, Ron departs in a rage, leaving Harry and Hermione to make the next move against Voldemort without him.

[Alison fake sobs]

Michael: [laughs] What? What’s funny

Alison: It’s okay, I’ll cry later. That was crying.

Michael: Oh. [laughs] You’re crying for Ron?

Alison: I’m just going to put this out there right now: I’m going to be Ron Weasley’s number one supporter in this and explain why Ron is not the awful, bad person everyone thinks he is in this chapter.

Eric: All right. Do you hear this? This is the sound of me cracking my knuckles.

[Sound of knuckles cracking]

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Alison: Let’s go.

Michael: Wow, I did hear that. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: That’s impressive.

Ellie: That sounded painful.

Michael: Let’s get into this.

Eric: You guys, so much… it was actually painful.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Michael: Well, before…

Eric: You can hear me shaking my hands right now in pain.

Michael: Before you guys put your fisticuffs on…

[Alison laughs]

Michael: … let’s get to some other stuff first. We’ll get to… you know what? I’ve moved Harry, Ron and Hermione actually to the end of the chapter because they…

Eric: Aww! How could you?

Michael: Because I just got to hold the suspense. But we’ll get to the little things first, which really aren’t that little. This chapter has a lot…

Alison: There’s a lot going on in this chapter.

Eric: Yeah, can I just say… generally, so much happens in this [chapter]… this is the first camping chapter. If all of the other camping chapters were this eventful, nobody would ever have … said anything about camping in Deathly Hallows, other than “Oh my God, did you read that book called Harry Potter and the Camping? Wasn’t that the best book ever written?”

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Michael: Well, and it’s interesting because really this chapter didn’t necessarily need to be called “The Goblin’s Revenge.” It could have been called a lot of things…

Alison: Oh, yeah.

Michael: Because there’s a lot of things going on, and one of the first points here is actually about the Horcrux – we’ll continue a little bit more about [the] Horcrux conversation. So, of course, the trio very insistently decides to wear the Horcrux. Harry says that it’s best to wear it because he doesn’t want to leave it lying around somewhere where they might lose it. But I wanted to put forth: is this a bad idea?

Alison: Yes.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: And are there safer alternatives? Because I feel… I was thinking that, honestly, having it on your body, you could still be captured and have the locket taken from you.

Alison and Eric: Mhm.

Michael: So, is it really that much safer on their bodies than it would be in wherever…? I see there was an option put here, which I agree with, that it could’ve been in Hermione’s purse.

Alison: Yes!

Eric: Right.

Alison: Which… although then it would’ve been her carrying it all the time.

Michael: Well, that’s true… well, Hermione’s purse sitting under the mattress of her bed in the tent.

Eric: Which is also kept in the purse. Legilimenception!

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I will say – I lost it for a second – I will say there is a difference between not wearing the locket and having it “just laying around.” That’s Harry’s whole thing: “We can’t just have it laying around.”

Ellie: Doesn’t he have that little bag from Hagrid?

Alison: Yeah! He’s got that moleskin bag. Hello, Harry!

Eric: I don’t think putting that… I think that’s still wearing it. I really think that still would be…

Ellie: But it’s not touching his skin. Remember at one point it burns to his flesh…

Michael: Yeah.

Ellie: … when he gets too close to… I don’t remember, something later in the book.

Alison: It’s in Godric’s Hollow.

Ellie: Thank you.

Michael: Yeah.

Ellie: Hermione has to sever the locket off of him.

Michael: Yeah.

Ellie: So proximity counts.

Eric: But it’s still so close to his chest and heart if it’s in that little bag that’s around his neck. Because that’s a drawstring bag that he keeps around his neck, right?

Alison: Mhm.

Ellie: So put the bag in her purse!

[Michael laughs]

Eric: I agree. Put the locket in the bag in the purse in the tent in the woods…

[Alison laughs]

Eric: … under the protective charm.

Michael: And then put all of that in the bag.

Eric: Legilimenception!

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Michael: Yeah. That has always bothered me, just because really wearing it just doesn’t seem to be any more safe than maybe sticking a nail in a pole of the tent and being like, “This is the designated Horcrux spot.”

Eric: Oh, yeah.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: A Horcrux pole.Michael: “Hang it here always.”

Eric: “We need six other poles for all the other Horcruxes and also if there’s dancing later…”

Alison: [laughs] No!

[Michael laughs]

Ellie: Aww!

Eric: But the…

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Eric: What was I going to say? I made myself laugh for a second with that imagery…

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: Actually… what were we saying before we said poles?

[Alison, Ellie, and Michael laugh]

Eric: Now I can’t think of anything else.

Michael: [laughs] We were saying… put it all in the bag.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: Ooh…

Alison: Well, okay. But while Eric’s trying to think of the point he’s trying to make…

Eric: Yes, thank you.

Alison: … it also makes sense that Harry wants to wear it because let’s be honest, if Harry doesn’t have something in front of his face at all times, he forgets about it. That’s just Harry.

Eric: Thank you.

Alison: [laughs] That’s just his character. If it’s not staring him in the face, it’s not his problem. So, it just makes a lot of sense for him to be like, “Let’s all wear it and pass it around so that it’s always in front of us, and we’re always thinking about how we need to get rid of this.” What could possibly go wrong?

[Michael laughs]

Eric: They manage to forget about it while they’re wearing it…

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: … so many times.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: And I think that’s part of the magic of the Horcrux. But who’s to say it wouldn’t be worse if they weren’t wearing it, honestly? The whole thing about Harry and his Patronus in this [chapter]… he’s wearing it and he feels such a difference that it makes.

Michael: And he doesn’t even think of that.

Ellie: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah. My whole thing of wearing it versus not wearing it is, they don’t know… Hermione might because she read that book, and we should ask her more about that book with every waking hour…

[Alison, Ellie, and Michael laugh]

Eric: But they don’t know… Harry doesn’t know that it can’t actually sprout legs and walk away, right? Would that just be the weirdest thing you ever read in a Harry Potter book?

Alison: [laughs] Oh, gosh! No.

Michael: No. Definitely not.

Eric: That a locket got up and walked away, or had some form of movement? I just watched The Conjuring recently, and it’s just the most terrifying movie ever. But also, stuff moves around. Haunted things move around, you’d assume magical things… I know there’s a lot of agency in the Harry Potter books where things don’t move unless they’re summoned usually. But what if it did?

Ellie: What if it’s alive?

Eric: It’s a good thing that it’s around Harry’s [neck].

Michael: Is it alive?

Alison: It’s alive…

Michael: [laughs] Noah’s wondering right now…

Alison: Technically, it is kind of alive, though. It’s got a piece of soul in it.

Michael: It kind of is.

Eric: For instance, here’s a mental thought experiment: Can the locket open itself?

Alison and Michael: Hmm.

Eric: I know it doesn’t. I know it chooses not to.

Michael: But can it?

Eric: But could it?

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: Actually going back to the point about the Patronus… because as we see this is, I think, a moment that is oft forgotten because it’s not in the movie. Harry goes to a small town to try [to] get some food, has an encounter with Dementors, and as Eric mentioned, he can’t make a Patronus because… he thinks it’s just a level of inadequacy. And of course Hermione realizes that it’s the locket, and Ellie had a few questions about that.

Ellie: Yeah, I was just thinking about it. He made the Patronus the day before and he talks about how strong and warm and powerful his stag Patronus is when he’s saving people from the dungeon the day before. But he’s already wearing it.

Alison: No, he’s not.

Ellie: He’s got it on his person, though…

Michael: No.

Alison: Hermione has it.

Ellie: … in his pocket. Oh, did she grab it?

Alison: Yeah, Hermione grabs it because she’s up on that stand with Umbridge, and Harry’s down away from that.

Eric: Yeah, he asks her after the Splinching. He asks her if she got it.

Michael: Yeah…

Ellie: Yeah, okay.

Michael: She goes, “What?!” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: “Got what?”

Eric: “What? The thing! The thing!”

Michael: “The thing we went to the Ministry for…”

Eric: So he wasn’t wearing it then. I would say, maybe…

Alison: Okay, so that’s probably why Hermione couldn’t make hers the day before.

Ellie: Yeah.

Alison: I was wondering that with your question.

Eric: Oh my God!

Alison: Because we talked about that last week.

Michael: No, I think that’s perfect that you brought that up…

Eric: My mind is blown.

Michael: Because Hermione isn’t…. I think we go off the assumption because Hermione has had trouble with her Patronus in the past.

Eric: That’s what we did last week.

Alison: But it probably just exacerbates it, that she’s…

Michael: Exactly.

Alison: … had trouble with it. It’s probably her least do-able spell, which is a pity…

Michael: Mhm.

Ellie: But then having that added on detriment of the Horcrux being on her person makes it impossible for her to do this spell that she already struggles with.

Alison: Exactly.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah, if Harry with a couple of hours of wearing it cannot produce a Patronus, something that he’s actually been particularly good at…

Ellie: His one thing.

Eric: … for the last several years, is definitely… yeah. If it effects him in that way it would effect many wizards that way, and especially Hermione. Wow.

Ellie: But then, it doesn’t affect Umbridge because she’s making that horrible cat one while she’s interrogating people.

Eric: Oh…

Michael: See, the interesting thing about this is this was Rowling doing a little bit of retconning…

Ellie: Mmm…

Michael: She retconned this first. What the problem was that came up with this, it was brought to light in Pottermore that if somebody who is not pure of heart casts a Patronus, they will be eaten by maggots.

Eric: Wait, what?

Michael: They will be eaten by maggots.

Ellie: From where?

Michael: From their wand.

Alison: They just appear.

Michael: Yeah, they will come out of their wand instead of the Patronus.

Ellie: That is worse than bat bogeys. I don’t care who you are.

Eric: Are you serious?

Alison: Have you never heard that, Eric?

Eric: No!

Alison: Oh yeah, that was huge!

Eric: What?!

Michael: That was canon in Book of Spells and she…

Eric: Oh, pfft! Come on.

Alison: It was also on Pottermore!

Michael: And she carried it over to Pottermore… she mentioned it a few times on Pottermore. Now of course everybody was like, “So why didn’t Umbridge get eaten by maggots?” Because that would have been an awesome ending for her character.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Because – and you guys kind of touched on it in the previous weeks, and as Rowling retconned it – Umbridge, while she’s not pure of heart in the perhaps traditional sense that we think it is, she is pure in her intentions.

Alison: Mhm.

Michael: She actually thinks she’s doing the right thing so purely and without question that she can produce a Patronus, and the locket makes her stronger when she does it.

Ellie: She reminds me so much of the bureaucratic evil that you see in the early stages of World War II that are like, “Oh, I’m just doing my job. I have to make you wear this badge. I have to take away your property because it’s what’s right.”

Michael: Mhm. Yeah.

Eric: I can’t believe she’s just like, “Oh, yeah, if somebody wasn’t pure of heart they’d totally get eaten by maggots, just like that Book of Spells video game said.”

[Michael laughs]

Eric: But I cannot imagine… God, that’s terrifying! Okay, I need to take a hundred tests then to make sure I’m pure of heart before I ever try.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: Didn’t Remus be like, “Okay, Harry, first we have to test your heart purity…”

[Ellie laughs]

Alison: No!

Eric: “Because if it turns out you’re really the evil kid that people think you might be, or somehow not pure of heart, you’re going to get eaten by maggots when you try this. So I wouldn’t be doing my teacherly diligence, my near-godfatherly diligence, if we didn’t first test the purity of your heart.” Eaten by maggots? Really?

Michael: It’s not my favorite Rowling retcon because it is so open to… that is such an open term.

Eric: Right.

Michael: And she’s made it very malleable for her, for the needs of this particular case, because Umbridge is probably the most unlikeable person who ever cast a Patronus in the entire series.

Eric: And you’re like, “Ow!” Yeah, you try and…

Michael: [laughs] You’ve got to justify that.

Eric: She was also pure of heart.

Michael: [laughs] But in the bad way. You can be pure of heart like evil. So yeah, that’s Rowling’s explanation for why Umbridge can make a Patronus while wearing the locket.

Eric: That it actually empowers her and makes her stronger, yeah.

Alison: Well, it probably doesn’t… I think part of the problem with Harry and Hermione’s wearing it is that the Horcrux affects them in the way that it plays on their insecurities and the things that they fear. And that prevents you from creating a Patronus because you have to be focused on a happy thought to create a Patronus. So in Umbridge’s case, this is her happy place, making everyone else miserable…

Eric and Michael: Yeah.

Alison: So that works for her. But with them it doesn’t because that insecurity and fear is overclouding any happy thoughts that would create a Patronus.

Eric: So it’s like a different kind of energy where they’re pulling from.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: See, Alison explained that so well without using maggots.

[Alison, Ellie, and Michael laugh]

Eric: Why does it have to be “eaten by [maggots]”? Are they ghost maggots because…

Michael: No, they’re maggots! They’re like legit maggots coming out of your…

Eric: Like actual…

Michael: Maggots are eating your flesh, Eric.

Alison: That’s just gross. [laughs]

Eric: I can’t…

Ellie: Hard pass. No, thank you.

Eric: I’m never casting a Patronus.

[Alison, Ellie, and Michael laugh]

Ellie: Just in case.

Michael: [laughs] Now the other interesting thing about this Horcrux business, as far as the trio trying to figure out where Voldemort might have hidden them, is Harry continually suggests Hogwarts, to which the other two go, “Nope!” And Ron has a very… he digs right in and says, “This is You-Know-Who we’re talking about, right, not you?”

Ellie: Sassy Ron is sassy.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: Yeah. Wow! But actually, I believe, as Ellie pointed out here, there might be some validity to that.

Ellie: Yeah, Harry doesn’t necessarily know that he’s doing it sometimes, but he does channel Voldemort. They have a lot of personality similarities. You guys talked about this a little bit at the beginning discussion of this book several chapters ago, but they both feel like Hogwarts is their home, and there’s a point where Harry really does just want to go home.

Alison: Yeah.

Ellie: He thinks there would be nothing in the world better than having some grownups take care of him and have hot food, and so he’s right, it turns out. But his motivations might not be purely from wanting to go there to find it so much as the longing for home that Ron’s feeling too in this chapter. They both just want to go home. Things are not going that well.

Michael: [It’s] kind of similar to Harry’s want to go to Godric’s Hollow…

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: Except I was going to say, he doesn’t try and pretend that there’s a Horcrux there. He thinks there will be answers there, but he does not say there’s going to be a Horcrux there. As it turns out there is a Horcrux there.

Alison: Yeah. It’s just kind of funny that you mention that too because Harry’s right. Guess when else he was right? [laughs] Last year. Guess who didn’t believe him? Anyone.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Eric: I’m missing it.

Alison: We kind of talked about this last week too that throughout this book, there’s all these recurring things that have happened in the past six [books] that she just keeps bringing back up.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: And this is kind of tying us back to that plot in Book 6 of Harry knows what’s going on, but everyone else is just like, “Harry, stop being dumb. Don’t be ridiculous.”

Michael: Well, yeah. Because Hermione’s putting her faith completely in Dumbledore’s magical abilities, which Harry is saying, “Don’t overestimate those.”

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: And Ron is taking it out on Harry and thinking that this is Harry’s personal thing and has nothing to do with the actual goal. And it is…

Eric: In this chapter they all seem to agree that the time between 1:00 p.m. and 1:45 when Voldemort had that meeting…

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Was not enough time…

Eric: … was not enough time to go to wherever he did and locate… or dispense of a [Horcrux]. And that’s kind of the brilliance in rereading, and you’re like, okay, I get what they’re saying, that he wouldn’t have had enough time to find an item from a founder. What we don’t know is that he was actually depositing one…

Michael and Alison: Yeah.

Eric: Because didn’t he already at one point… he already had it and just had to drop it off?

Michael: Yep. He had the tiara.

Ellie: Yeah, he had it. He was going to drop it off and then he was planning to work there and find more.

Alison: And find the sword.

Eric: Right.

Michael: Yep.

Eric: So they’re focused on… yet again, we find our heroes and heroine stuck on one-half of the full equation: “He wouldn’t have had enough time to find something, and he was going for the job so that was his endgame.” But actually, as it turns out, he made really good use of his time when he was there.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: So that’s why they’re wrong. But it’s not altogether… it’s just weird how they’re considering Hogwarts in this chapter, and Harry really, truly believes it because he knows the importance of Hogwarts to Voldemort and shares it, as Ellie said. But they all just seem to dismiss it because they’re doing the math, which they can’t have above a fourth grade…

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: No, and…

Eric: They’re doing the math and saying it’s not fitting.

Michael: And I’m really glad, Ellie, that you brought up that Harry/Voldemort parallel and that Ron brings it up, because I think it’s just… it keeps adding to Rowling’s very, what I do think, is a very clever constant reminder of how these two are tied. That’s going to especially… here’s a reminder of it in the midst of Horcrux discussion.

Alison: Mhm.

Michael: It’s just another one of those very nicely written hints of what the ultimate goal is. I’ve always really liked the poetic tying of Voldemort and Harry’s fate. I actually realized recently – I didn’t consciously realize it before, but I’m reading Half-Blood Prince with Charlie now – when I read the memories of Voldemort, I actually read Voldemort – young Voldemort/Tom Riddle – with the same voice as I read Harry.

Ellie and Eric: Oh.

Michael: Because I feel like they should sound the same.

Ellie: Yeah. Wow.

Michael: I think there’s a lot of really interesting things about those two. I notice, too… I remembered – if any of you listeners ever had the early Harry Potter Lego sets – Tom Riddle first came out in the Chamber of Secrets set, and he had the same hair as Harry did.

[Alison and Ellie laugh]

Michael: They use the same exact messy hair piece. [laughs] So obviously that’s a thing that people picked up on.

Eric: Oh, gosh.

Michael: But now just a fun thing to note: Gringotts is thrown about as an idea in Harry’s mind idly. He never expresses it to Ron and Hermione and it’s not given an out-loud mention; it’s just something in Harry’s thoughts when they go to see the orphanage, which has been demolished. So we know the end of that story.

Alison: [laughs] I love Hermione, though: “We could dig in the foundations?”

[Michael laughs]

Alison: Like, “Yes, Hermione, that’s great. We’re going to take a whole block of buildings down.”

[Everyone laughs]

Ellie and Michael: No one will notice.

Eric: Well, they didn’t even try… okay, here, I’m going to side with Hermione. They didn’t even try Accio Horcrux.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: Okay? They didn’t. Harry is just like, “No, this office building… yeah, Voldemort would…” I love the explanation [that] Voldemort wanted to get as far away from this place as his soul would never be residing here any second longer than it had to. Okay, that was brilliant.

Ellie: I think anybody who’s ever worked at an office would know they don’t want to leave their soul there.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I left my favorite stapler at the office. Now I’m never seeing it again.

Michael: That would have been pretty great if Hermione had said, “All right, Accio Horcrux,” and the whole building just toppled over.

Alison: Oh, gosh.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Exactly.

Ellie: [The] whole place is made of sadness.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: In fact, I’m surprised that [Voldemort was not] like, “Oops! My Death Eaters accidentally destroyed this office building. That wasn’t intentional at all.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: An extra peeing on the grave of the…

Alison: Oh, gosh.

Eric and Michael: … of the orphanage.

Ellie: I mean, the orphanage did get torn down. We don’t know why.

Eric and Michael: Yeah.

Michael: And Kat also made sure to send us a Twitter comment from one of our listeners, Spencer Fannon. Spencer, you apparently are leaving comments for us almost on a weekly basis, so thank you… on Twitter.

Eric: Thank you, Spencer.

Michael: We appreciate your input. Spencer wanted to add to the conversation:

“Another huge Dumbledore mistake: never telling or showing Harry how to actually destroy a Horcrux. Did he want them to fail?”

What do you guys think on that one?

Alison: That goes back to… I think he meant to do that when they got back to Hogwarts after finding the locket. I think that was… he just didn’t have the opportunity to. I think he was going to show him and tell him when he actually had an actual Horcrux to get rid of. And obviously he didn’t have a chance. So that’s where…

Ellie: He had the book. He could have told them at any time during that year, “By the way, there’s some information on this available to you.”

Eric: He knows how much Harry needs that practical lesson, right? Otherwise he doesn’t learn…

Alison: Yeah, Harry’s a very kinesthetic learner, right? He likes to do things; he’s an action-based person. So, having [Dumbledore] be like, “Okay, look, here’s how you do it exactly. I’m not going to explain it to you because it’s going to go in one ear and out the other unless Hermione’s standing next to you to tell you two minutes later.”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “That’s a story for later time.” I think… did he want them to fail? Well… heavens, no. He made that book available to Hermione by way of Accio, which she somehow knew to do.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: So it’s okay. The plot is saved, the world is saved, and Dumbledore didn’t wish ill on the trio at all!

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Michael: Always wanted them to succeed in every possible way. Yeah, I think you’re right, Alison, that there was… right before the encounter with the Death Eaters and Snape, Dumbledore probably thought there was going to be an interim where he’d be like, “Let’s go back to my office and destroy this.”

Eric: I mean, that was unbelievably stupid because he had known since the beginning…

Michael: Yes!

Eric: … that Snape himself had taken an Unbreakable Vow to assist Draco in killing him from the beginning of the year.

Ellie: But he didn’t know they would come in that night, meet, get that far, and end up there.

Michael Yeah, I think he didn’t know… he didn’t have the timeline because Snape didn’t have the timeline because Malfoy wasn’t telling him the timeline.

Ellie: Yeah.

Eric: It doesn’t matter what the timeline is. You have 150 days to [unintelligible] with the idea that you’re…

[Alison, Ellie, and Michael laugh]

Eric: You’ve had 150 days to prepare to be killed by either this child or your trusted…

Michael: Well, part of the issue too is that… and maybe that’s why when we go back and reflect on that chapter from Half-Blood when Dumbledore does get so angry at Harry for not getting the memory, that may be why. Maybe he is aware of that timeline to some degree, and Harry just screwed up his timeline.

Eric: Yeah, that’s a good idea.

Alison: Good job, Harry.

Ellie: It’s also just Dumbledore keeping all of his secrets to himself.

Alison: Yeah.

Ellie: He doesn’t want to put all of his eggs in one basket. He doesn’t want to give out too much information before he absolutely has to, and he ends up screwing himself over.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Well, he plays it as being like, “Oh, now we delve into speculation, Harry. I’m not sure of the answers.” Bull****, Dumbledore.

[Alison, Ellie, and Michael laugh]

Eric: [unintelligible] … Horcrux in the ring. You know damn well what the ring was and what all of these things are. It’s so great for the book to do that. Where it leads you through and brings the reader into such an understanding, or what we think is an understanding, of how Voldemort acts, how he grew up and developed this insatiable bloodlust for splitting his soul and imparting it into objects. But it doesn’t necessarily lead into any kind of real understanding of how to destroy them. How to hunt them, sure. But destroying, the destruction thing comes all from this book that Dumbledore did not actively give Hermione. And no information that was actively told to Harry because time ran short. But how can time run short, you waited until June to bring this up.

Michael: But I’m glad you said that Ellie, as far as Dumbledore’s secrets because that really I think, we’ll keep seeing that the more we go through Hallows but I do think that’s the core of Dumbledore’s undoing, his ability to keep secrets and his inability to share. But speaking of Dumbledore, there’s a few bits of plot magic I want to talk about and I term them “plot magic” because this magic is all very integral to major plot devices. The first one being in relation to Dumbledore, which is the Hogwarts portraits. Another new tidbit about Hogwarts portraits that we get from Phineas Nigellus here on page 303 in the American edition of Hallows. Phineas says, “The portraits of Hogwarts may commune with each other. They cannot travel outside the castle except to visit a painting of themselves hanging elsewhere. Dumbledore cannot come with me.”

Alison: [laughs] Michael, I don’t think I’ve ever heard your Phineas voice and that was so perfect!

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: I’m sorry!

Michael: Thank you!

Eric: I’m so glad that you brought – that is my favorite…

Michael: Little tidbit.

Eric: … I would do an episode just about this. That’s like the coolest thing ever. To me.

Michael: It’s a nice little, I think, not only is it a nice addition of keeping Dumbledore’s portrait away from them. But it’s also a foreshadowing of Arianna’s portrait and how that will be used at the end to get them into Hogwarts.

Eric:Ooh. I didn’t think about that.

Michael: That’s also the tool to get them into Hogwarts. But yeah, it’s just one of those fun little magic tidbits. We don’t hear a lot of those anymore. Yeah.

Eric: That’s true enough. Most of the world has been discovered already.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: And of course there is, the taboo comes up again. We already talked pretty extensively about the taboo, but I did really, I have to say, I really enjoyed this comment from last week’s episode from Yo Rufus On Fire that I thought actually really applied to this chapter well and Yo Rufus On Fire said,

“I wonder if in an earlier draft of Hallows J.K. Rowling had a piece written in about Ron’s experiences in the Ministry that maybe Ron recaps later with Harry and Hermione that he heard about the taboo and told them not to say Voldemort’s name. We never really get to hear what happened to him while he was away from Harry and Hermione in the Ministry except for one small bit. The fact that Ron finds himself at that particular point after the trip to the Ministry telling the others to stop saying Voldemort almost seems too perfectly placed to not have had something there previously that was taken out. I love Ron, and I love that he saves the day multiple times, but I think that there’s something missing from the text that Rowling covers it up by giving Ron extremely good intuition.”

Alison:Okay, I actually really like that, though, too. I really like the idea that he came across something, somewhere when he was separated from them and kind of freaked out.

Ellie: Well, this could be sort of intuition in the same sense that he heard it and didn’t necessarily… because he didn’t say like, “Oh, I overheard at the Ministry don’t say that anymore.” It’s like he may have heard somebody saying it in the background and it just sort of got subsumed into his fleshy membranes, but doesn’t know why.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah, I liked…

Alison: Or almost saying it, maybe.

Michael: Because what I liked about this was this would also give a great reason for why, I think a better reason, for why Harry and Hermione never get caught after Ron leaves. Because they would have this rule cemented from a source.

Eric: Right.

Michael: Because I find it very hard to believe that just because they got into the habit with Ron around that they stopped saying it all together.

Eric: In this one chapter.

Michael: Yes. That they stopped saying it all together. Yeah. That was a little hard for me to swallow. And again, with Hermione and Harry being on their own and really having gotten used to saying Voldemort’s name aloud, I think they would have let it slip. And if this was the case, that wouldn’t have affected up until the point where Harry says it. This would have worked. So I thought that was just a kind of really interesting theory about the taboo. But, then of course, there’s this big thing, this big piece of magic that everybody has lots of feelings about.

Eric: You’re still talking about the portraits, right?

Michael: No.

Eric: I want to still talk about the portraits, can we talk about the portraits for one more second?

Michael: Eric, you can talk about the portraits for one more second.

Eric: Okay, so portraits inside Hogwarts can visit each other, and that has to do with the portraits themselves being in the same building. It doesn’t matter what the scenery is, or what the portraits are. They can still visit each other as long as they are stored in the same…

Michael: Physical space.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: … physical space. How does that work, do they share the same back space? Just because of where they are physically located on the outside?

Michael: The best way for me to picture it, and Eric you’re going to hate this example…

Eric: You said picture.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: The best way in my head that it works, and the way it was visually best represented, and again, Eric, you’re going to hate this, but it was Prisoner of Azkaban the movie.

Eric: Yeah. I love that. Yeah.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: Because Alfonso Cuarón chose to clump all the paintings into the staircase area, and if you look in the background, fun fact, listeners, Sir Cadogan was cut from the movie, but you can see him jumping around in the back from portrait to portrait.

[Ellie laughs]

Michael: And the way that it’s done in that particular movie is kind of how I picture it, is that ability to travel between… and almost like the portraits… if you add a portrait to those portraits, it’s adding to their world, to their landscape.

Eric: It’s like a room.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: It’s like those are rooms next to each other, the chambers and the… even if one room was a field and you’re all of a sudden outdoors, there’s a small tunnel that you will never be able to see because you can’t go back.

Michael: Yes.Alison: Well, it’s…

Eric: Right.

Alison: I guess I don’t know tons about art, but when they set up art galleries, they’re very specific about where they put certain paintings because they’re trying to get a certain feeling or a certain message across through the way they organize the paintings. So that’s kind of how I’ve kind of always imagined it. It’s kind of like you said; it becomes part of their world, it becomes part of their space, and that they’re set in a certain way to interact in that space.

Michael: Mhm. Yeah.

Eric: Then the other thing is, and, again, sorry for delaying, Hermione casts a spell on Phineas Nigellus.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. She puts a blindfold on him that comes, ostensibly, out of her wand and into the world of the portrait. [laughs]

Eric: Excuse me. That… she just blew…

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Alison: Okay. I always…

Michael: We can, too.

Alison: I’ve always imagined it as being a little more like she’s painting with her wand.

Ellie: Oh.

Eric: Ah. Okay.

Ellie: Hmm.

Alison: And so because…

Eric: “Obscurus” is really the Latin for “to watercolor.”

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Alison: Yeah, I’ve always just… it’s more of she’s painting with her wand and so she just kind of throws it on there.

Eric: Also, they don’t remove it, which is kind of cruel.

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Ellie: So if you painted over somebody’s portrait and you painted them to look like something else, could you, ostensibly, turn one portrait into another? Could you turn a portrait of Aberforth into Dumbledore or whatever if they were both similar?

Eric: Or if it were a Mona Lisa on top of the Declaration of Independence. Which one would be…

[Alison and Ellie laugh]

Ellie: Yeah. Or…

Michael: Suppose…

Eric: Would Mona Lisa, would Lisa walk around quoting the doctrine?

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: I’d say you ostensibly could change it; maybe not enough to make it fully another person because the other thing we’ve learned about portraits from Pottermore is that they gain knowledge from our world. So they listen to us, and that’s kind of the extent of their knowledge, is what they’re taught by us.

Eric: Oh, I’m so glad there wasn’t some hidden secret about maggots.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Michael: [in a British accent] And then the maggots spew out of the portrait. [laughs]

Eric: No, no, no!

Michael: Maggots everywhere.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: Oh, man.

Michael: But there’s a bigger thing of magic that’s mentioned in this chapter that is…

Eric: Yes.

Michael: Talk about retconning. This is probably going to be one of the biggest ones in the series of all time. Deathly Hallows page 293. Ron is whining and griping – I’m using nice words to describe Ron – about the food situation because he wants something more than charred fish.

Eric: Oh, very nice words, yeah.

Michael: And he mentions that his mother could summon food out of nowhere. Hermione counters that with Gamp’s Law of Elemental Transfiguration because Hermione is the only one who listens at school.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: And Hermione [laughs] quotes word-for-word what that is. Unfortunately, she gets cut off, but she explains what that means in terms of food. And as she says, “It’s impossible to make good food out of nothing! You can Summon it if you know where it is, you can transform it, you can increase the quantity if you’ve already got some.” So of course, everybody went flipping back through every book and was like, “But there was food Summoned here, here, here, here, here, here, and here.”

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Alison: Hmm. Were there though? Because literally, the only time I can think of is Molly Weasley in Chamber of Secrets. I think it’s Chamber of Secrets, but that’s literally the only time I can think of.

Michael: Oh, right.

Eric: Okay. So…

Alison: But it comes out of a wand.

Eric: Well, I mean, obviously the Hogwarts kitchens – it does come out of her wand – the Hogwarts kitchens is obviously the first case, right. Summoned from somewhere else; it’s Summoned literally from below.

Alison: But it’s not. It’s transported; it’s not Summoned.

Eric: Yeah.

Alison: It’s just transported from below to up above.

Eric: Exactly.

Michael: That’s house-elf magic.

Alison: Yeah. That’s not… I mean, that goes along with you can Summon it if you know where it is.

Eric: Well, that’s exactly what I’m saying. That’s the reason why that was not breaking a rule.

Alison: Oh, okay. I thought you were saying it was. Just kidding.

Michael: So that was… that example leads into an infamous one in terms of this law from Chamber of Secrets when McGonagall takes Harry and Ron to her office, she offers them a plate of never-ending sandwiches. A lot of people have assumed that that comes from the kitchens, but again, she just Summons the plate out of nowhere with a bunch of sandwiches, and the sandwiches keep automatically refilling.

Ellie: Increased quantity.

Michael: And now we know that the food moves up from the tables in the kitchen right up to the tables above them in the Great Hall.

Ellie: And you can increase the quantity if you’ve already got some, so she really only has to get one sandwich and then infinitely duplicate it.

Michael: So yeah, so maybe that is her spell. The other…

Eric: Maybe that was…

Ellie: Or they have a sandwich slave that is just making them all of the time.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Someone just making all these sandwiches.

Eric: Yeah. Jimmy John in the kitchen.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: No. I was wondering, what if that was McGonagall’s sandwich that she made for herself for lunch. And she’s…

Alison: Oh.

Michael: Copy, copy, copy.

Eric: I Summon it from my lunchbox and then make ten of them and have it on a plate.

Alison and Michael: Aww.Michael: That’s such a sweet fanfiction idea.

Alison: McGonagall. I’m going to act like I don’t care.

Michael: Well, and then another example I believe… now there… we find out… we haven’t heard this spell, I believe, but Ollivander uses his… I believe it’s Krum’s wand or Cedric’s, to summon a flow of wine when he’s testing the wands.

Alison: Oh, yeah.

Michael: Where do you get that wine from? Especially…

Alison: His flask.

Michael: … if you’re Ollivander.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: His flask. [laughs]

Eric: He had a flask or three.

Michael: Oh man, Ollivander is fancy.

Alison: Have you seen that guys?

[Alison and Michael laughs]

Eric: His flask was made out of elm, right?

Alison: Aged oak. [laughs]

Eric: Aged oak. Ooh! Man…

Alison: Mhm.

Eric: … I missed an opportunity. Thank you so much.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Man, an oak barrel of… [sighs] so perfect.

Michael: But as… my point is and, of course, with Molly – I think the big think with Molly and we’ve talked about this before – is that, does she pre-make the food and then summon it? Does… Where does she keep the food that needs to be refrigerated?

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: Because wizards don’t have fridges.

Eric: She has like a salt kitchen or something.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: Like a salt…

Alison: I’ve always wondered though, too, since this came out, is… I’ve wondered if Molly’s is more of… she’s able to magically summon the ingredients and then they all go together. I wonder if that’s like a cooking spell. That it’s, “Okay, you’ve got… what’s she making? Sauce; you’ve got flour and whatever the liquid is and like…”

Eric: It’s still food.

Alison: It’s coming together, but she’s able to summon it and combined it at the same time. So it looks like it’s coming out of her wand but it’s not originating from there.

Michael: Mhm. Yeah, I understand what you mean.

Eric: Yeah, but it’s… I like that idea because I find it simultaneously impossible to believe that Molly would have a salt kitchen where there’s just all this food waiting to be summoned by her while she’s in the kitchen. And then that Ron wouldn’t know about it.

[Alison and Eric laughs]

Eric: Because he goes where the food is. So I’m like, “Hey, is it just that Ron never helped out his mom in the kitchen?”

Alison: Probably.

Ellie: Yes. [laughs]

Michael: Probably. [laughs] Ostensibly.

Ellie: Can you imagine Ron being like, “Hey mom, you want some help baking today?”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: No, no. I mean…

Alison: No! He’s probably, “What’s for dinner? What’s for lunch?” [laughs]

Eric: Lord knows I went the first 18 years of my life without learning how to cook. But I’m like, “If she’s getting it from another place, wouldn’t all the Weasleys just go down there when they’re hungry and take it?”

Alison: Well, if it’s just ingredients. I mean, what… they’re not to go and eat flour and chicken broth.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Flour, oh flour. There’s, for me… and I do apologize if Pottermore has, in fact, answered this. You called it a retcon, but what doesn’t make sense to me is the Duplication Law where if you have something, you can duplicate it. Because wouldn’t that mean that the original item, once duplicated… they would both be of lesser substance? Because if you can’t create something out of nothing, but you can duplicate it, that’s still… wouldn’t that take away from what it’s sampling because it’s sampling something? Again, I don’t understand how duplicating it isn’t the exact same thing as making something out of nothing. Unless, now, so like two hundred calorie sandwich would suddenly become two one hundred calorie sandwiches.

Alison: That’s be nice. [laughs]

Michael: That would be…

Eric: They’d look the same…

Michael: I’d eat that. [laughs]

Eric: New diet. I would eat that as well.

Alison: Just keep duplicating it until you get to zero. [laughs]

Ellie: Twice as many sandwiches.

Michael: Maybe it’s because I was just recently watching episodes of it, and Eric, this is something you’ll appreciate, but that makes me think of say the Replicator on…

Eric: I have such an answer for you. I love this.

Michael: … on the Enterprise on Star Trek: The Next Generation

Eric: I love this.

Michael: … because there are frequent mentions that they… that the food is not truly food. It’s a replication of food. So it has all the nutritional value of food – most of it anyway – but it doesn’t have quite the same taste or… and they keep saying in episodes like, “It’s just not right.” And that’s all they hint about.

Eric: Well, there’s episodes that their Replicator goes wrong…

Michael: Yes!

Eric: … which is a problem. But it’s actually… it’s coming from hydrogen atoms that are collected just when the ship travels through space because there [are] random stray hydrogen particles in space.

Michael: They’re just…

Eric: There like that atoms again, so…

Michael: … stray hydrogen particles going into your wand when [laughs] you copy.

Eric: Well, it’s matter being reconfigured is the thing.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: There’s still matter. You’re not, basically, adding to the amount of matter in the universe or in the Harry World in front of you. But it is reconfiguring so it’s like there would be… maybe you could only summon or create something that is of equal weight or mass or something along those lines. But duplication, to me, would immediately sample or split in half whatever it is that you’re duplicating.

Alison: Why, if we’re talking science and atoms, why couldn’t it be along the same line as cloning?

Michael: Hmm.

Alison: Where the product is exactly he same as what it came out of?

Eric: Oh, it’s not because you would never be able to get the clone to occupy the same…

Alison: True…

Eric: … exact space in the universe.

Alison: … but, genetically, the atom… the make-up of it would be…

Eric: Yeah, the genetic code would be the same but they’re not really.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: They’re not… the genetic make-up would be, but they’re still two different atoms standing across the… atoms standing across the street from each other.

Ellie: I mean, from an anatomical level, everything we’re eating is basically just Carbon. So I guess…

Eric: Right.

Ellie: … if you’re looking at this as a physical perspective, than duplicating something you already have, you could be taking carbon from anywhere. From the ground…

Alison: Yeah.

Ellie: … from the air…

Eric: And it’s all stardust.

Ellie: … from a tree. Right, well, yes it is. And so, you could be taking… it could not, necessarily, be reducing the caloric quality of the initial sandwich – using that example – but you could…

Eric: What would you need the first item then? If you could just summon it indefinitely once you’ve… or replicate it – duplicate it, sorry – if you could duplicate it once you got on…

Alison: You need the blueprint.

Eric: … why do you need one?

Ellie: May be you need a form or something.

Alison: Yeah, you need to know…

Eric: What? Are you 3D scanning?

[Alison laughs]

Ellie: Yes!

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Are you 3D scanning this item? Are you printing out a plastic version?

Alison: For all intents and purposes, maybe yeah.

Ellie: You’re 3D-scanning a sandwich from carbon atoms and hydrogen in the air.

Alison: And making a new one.

Ellie: Why not?

Eric: And your wand is doing this? It’s equipped with a 3D-scanning feature when you mutter this incantation?

Alison: [laughs] Sure.

Michael: Wands can do lots of things.

Ellie: Gamp’s Law of elemental 3D-printing.

Alison: Magic.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: The thing is that’s just the first law. Where are the other four? I want to know.

Alison: Weren’t they listed somewhere?

Michael: They are not written down. Some of them have been… I think Rowling has peppered them around but they’re not…

Eric: One of them isn’t maggots, is it? Because I am just…

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Michael: No. You’re the one who keeps bringing them up!

Alison: I think one of them has to do with money…

Eric: I know because it’s just the most terrifying thing I can possibly think of. I’m stuck on this.

Michael: Is that worse than the Bat-Bogey one?

Alison, Ellie, and Eric: Yes.

Eric: It’s worse than the Bat-Bogeys, yes.

Michael: Because that was the last thing, I think, that terrified you to your bones.

Eric: Being accidentally eaten by maggots out of your own wand when you’ve cast the wrong…

Ellie: Infinitely worse.

Michael: Infinitely worse than being attacked by your own flying snot. Yeah. [laughs]

Ellie: Yes, snot comes from your body.

Michael: You expect this majestic steed made of white smoke to come out of your wand…

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: … and all of a sudden you’re dinner.

Alison: What if your Patronus is maggots?

Michael: Speaking of dinner, there is dinner that is easily gotten by a few people that we’re going to talk about in a minute, and Ellie had a point about that.

Ellie: It’s just one more time where you’re like, “Who is really bad at magic? Oh, it’s Harry Potter.”

[Everyone laughs]

Ellie: Because every other person, apparently, who is camping is like, “Oh, Accio Salmon. Look, here’s some fish.” But he apparently struggles to find anything to eat ever, yet he loves Accio. It’s one of his only spells.

[Alison laughs]

Ellie: Really, when you come down to it, if you look at the number of times that he uses Accio, I swear to God it overshadows anything except maybe Expelliarmus.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: Yeah, those are the two.

Ellie: And he tries it on the Horcruxes a number of times, even after he knows it doesn’t work, but he doesn’t ever sit and think, “Hey, I want that salmon. Accio Salmon. Hey, look, I got a salmon.” That doesn’t come up.

Alison: Well, okay, you’re probably right, but there’s also… I’m just going to defend Harry for a minute here. Yeah, Harry knows nothing about nature and I don’t think it would have occurred to him that, “Oh, there’s a stream nearby. There could be some fish we could eat in here.”

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Ellie: But that’s the thing; they are eating a fish.

Alison: Yeah, but when did Harry ever go outside and be like, “Oh, look, there’s a pretty stream with fish in it”? No, he grew up in a suburb and was forced to stay there basically his whole life.

Eric: Yeah, that’s true.

Alison: I just don’t think it would have occurred to him.

Ellie: I would believe that but they’re eating fish in the beginning of the scene, that Harry caught.

Alison: [laughs] Oh yeah, that’s true.

Ellie: Harry apparently caught a sad, grey fish…

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Aww.

Ellie: … that they’re hating on five sentences ago. And then these other people come up and five seconds later are eating a giant, juicy salmon that they got.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: That’s like throwing a grenade into the water to kill a fish.

Michael: [laughs] Do you guys remember that old Sesame Street skit where Ernie and Bert are in the boat and they’re fishing and Bert is trying to catch the fish legit and then Ernie just keeps going, “Here, fishy fishy fishy”?

[Alison laughs]

Michael: And they all jump into the boat.

Eric: Oh, that’s brilliant.

Ellie: Yes.

Michael: That’s what that is. [laughs] I think this somewhat goes back [to] – and you guys talked about this last week – when they first end up in the woods and Hermione is panicking because Ron has been splinched and going, “Get the Dittany out of my bag!” and Harry is manually reaching his hand into the bag…

Eric: Right.

Michael: … pushing everything over in the bag and he can’t find it, and then she’s like, “Hurry!” and then he summons it. And you guys posited that that comes from the fact that Harry and Hermione have been raised as Muggles and aren’t accustomed to doing magic for everything and they don’t think of magic as the first solution to their problems.

Alison Yeah.

Michael: And I think there’s still… I mean, Hermione is better at that. Hermione still has her moments; the “there’s no wood for a fire” is the famous one…

Eric: Ah, right.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: … and I think she has definitely grown out of that mostly but Harry, I think, is still… especially because Harry doesn’t have the knowledge bank of spells that Hermione does.

Ellie: But he definitely has Accio.

Michael: Yeah, he does, and that’s silly.

Eric: I’ve never eaten a bad-tasting fish. The mushrooms are one thing, right?

Alison: Ugh.

Eric: The fungus they talk about like, “Oh, she’s identified now several species of fungus that they can eat.” And I’m like, “Oh, great.” But she also should have packed some salt and some Ranch.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: That would have gone a long, long way.

Michael: Yeah…

Eric: I know Ranch goes bad but maybe there’s a spell where you can prevent it.

Michael: And that’s why I’m not a fan of Gamp’s Law because it’s introduced so late into the series at the point where it’s like, “I want food.” “Well, you can’t have any because we’ve decided right now that you can’t have any because law.”

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Michael: And that’s the only reason I’m not a fan of Gamp.

Alison: Well, they didn’t need it before.

Michael: Yes, but it’s just not something I’m a fan of also because – even though this somewhat adequately explains previous examples – there have been previous examples of summoning food that have not had this law behind it.

Eric: It’s just funny… I think it’s one more stripping away of the layers. Again, J.K. Rowling finds yet something else to throw in these kids’ faces that they can’t have. They were so adequately nourished their entire lives.

Alison: Yeah. Mhm.

Eric: At least Harry is like, “I have known hunger,” in his inner monologue, and Ron hasn’t and that’s very interesting. I’ll talk about that in a moment. But they were just so well-nourished: Hogwarts, three meals a day as it is stated. And it’s just shocking that you can’t actually make food come out of nowhere because of how much food has always existed at Hogwarts since Harry has been there.

Michael: Yes. Yes, food has magically surrounded us through the series.

Eric: It’s amazing that you can’t just create it from nothing because they’ve been surrounded.

Alison: It’s breaking down that magic doesn’t solve all problems.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: Right.

Alison: She introduces that in Book 1, but I think by this point, we’ve almost gotten so used to, “Oh, look, there’s a magical solution to this,” that we’ve forgotten that, almost; that magic doesn’t solve all problems. In a lot of ways it makes them worse. And so I think this is one of those things that’s like, “Oh, hey, welcome to the real world! It’s not pretty and safe anymore.” It’s… yeah.

Michael: And a lot of the fans do get on Hermione’s case for not packing food, but to her credit, she didn’t think that they were going to be camping right now. [laughs]

Alison: Yes.

Eric: No, I agree. I know why she didn’t pack food. I’m talking about condiments.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: Just to make the fish taste a little bit better, right? A little tartar sauce?

Alison: Do you routinely carry Ranch and salt with you, Eric?

[Michael laughs]

Eric: I carry Ranch everywhere I go! There’s at least a couple packets with me at all times.

Michael: You never know when you’re going to need some seasoning.

Ellie: I know a lot of women who keep hot sauce in their purse, so…

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: But hot sauce never goes bad, right?

Ellie: Yeah, well, and I live in California, so…

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Okay, yeah. Practically Mexico.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: So speaking of all of this delicious salmon, it’s not being eaten by Harry, Ron, and Hermione; it’s being eaten by a whole other group of people just down the way, ever so conveniently down the way.

Eric: Oh, how dare you call this convenient? This is awesome.

Alison: This is amazing.

Eric: This is the first camping chapter and they learn what’s going on at Hogwarts, what’s going on with the sword, what’s going on with Dean and Ginny…

Michael: [makes gagging sound] Okay, there [are] some campers down the way. They are Dean Thomas, Gornuk and Griphook – two goblins from Gringotts – Ted Tonks, and Dirk Cresswell. We’ll go through all of these guys. So Dean Thomas… there [are] interesting things that fall under each of these characters and what’s revealed in this section. This is the info dump of the chapter. This is the part that really sets up pretty much the rest of the book. And so what’s interesting about Dean Thomas’s inclusion here is he uses the connection to Hogwarts to confirm a few things about Ginny, Neville, and Luna. But he’s also actually vocalizing what Rowling termed “ghost plots”.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: And this is why I put this here: It’s because this is the part where we even get close to this big plot about Dean Thomas. Now, this was revealed on J.K. Rowling’s old site, which before we started recording we were just gushing about because we miss it so much.

Eric: Oh, I miss that site.

Michael: Not all of this information made the cut over to Pottermore so that’s why I’m pulling it from the old site thanks to the Wayback Machine. Thank you so much, Internet Archive Wayback Machine. But what’s said in here is that, “Anybody who has read both the American and British versions of Philosopher’s Stone will notice that Dean Thomas’s appearance is not mentioned in the British book, whereas in the American one there is a line describing him (in the chapter “The Sorting Hat”). This was an editorial cut in the British version; my,” meaning Rowling’s, “editor thought the chapter was too long and pruned everything that he thought was surplus to requirements. When it came to casting on the film version of Philosopher’s Stone, however, I told the director, Chris…” Chris; you know Chris.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: I know Chris!

Michael: “… that Dean was a black Londoner. In fact, I think Chris was slightly taken aback by the amount of information I had on this peripheral character.”

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Michael: Back in the days when we were surprised by things like that.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: “I had a lot of background on Dean, though I had never found the right place to use it. His story was included in an early draft of Chamber of Secrets but then cut by me because it felt like an unnecessary digression. Now I don’t think his history will ever make it into the books. Dean is from what he always thought was a pure Muggle background. He has been raised by his mother and his stepfather; his father walked out on the family when Dean was very young. He has a very happy home life, with a number of half-brothers and sisters. Naturally when the letter came from Hogwarts, Dean’s mother wondered whether his father might have been a wizard, but nobody has ever discovered the truth: That Dean’s father, who had never told his wife what he was because he wanted to protect her, got himself killed by Death Eaters when he refused to join them. The projected story had Dean discovering all this during his school career. I suppose in some ways I sacrificed Dean’s voyage of discovery for Neville’s, which is more important to the central plot.”

Alison: Man, this should have been the Cursed Child storyline because this is amazing.

[Michael laughs]

Alison: Why couldn’t we have this written by her all completely out? Because… oh, I love this. Oh man, I love it.

Eric: This is really good.

Michael: Well, it feels like it comes… this moment when Dean is like, “Yeah, I never knew my father,” that is the closest that we even come to scratching this.

Eric: Well, and how heart-wrenching must it have been for J.K. Rowling in the final book to still have…? And again, original versions; she tried in Book 1, she tried in Book 2…

Alison: Aww.

Eric: … the idea was always for Dean to know this. To actually write this character who is in the woods with these strangers going, “Yeah, I still don’t know what’s up with my family.”

Alison: Man, someone write me a fan fic where he finds this out and is just like….

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Oh, no, I’m saving it for the encyclopedia.

Alison: Oh, okay, yeah, okay.

Michael: Oh, I’m sure there’s plenty of fanfic out there, Alison.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: This is truly amazing, and having your character be still in perpetual uncertainty… he may never know. His father was this badass who got killed…

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: … who the Death Eaters sought so hard that when he said no…

Alison: They killed him.

Eric: … they teamed up and killed him.

Michael: Mhm.

Alison: Also, just another shout-out for Dean in this chapter. He has this line – it’s a little bit later – where he says, “I know Harry Potter, and he’s the real deal.” And I was just like, “You go, Dean!”

Eric: [laughs] Woo!

Alison: You go, standing up for Harry because you’re amazing.

Michael: Yeah, that’s…

Ellie: He did that before that, right? Seamus gets really sassy at one point…

Alison: Yeah.

Ellie: … and he stands up against Seamus for a little while, who’s his best friend.

Michael: Mhm. Yeah. And considering that he was dating Ginny and I’m sure he knows to some degree that Harry and Ginny…

Eric: Oh, and he still supports him. Yeah.

Michael: Yeah, he still supports Harry. That’s pretty cool.

Eric: Top bloke. Top bloke, Dean.

Michael: [laughs] So that’s Dean Thomas. Then there’s, of course, Gornuk and Griphook. We know Griphook, of course, already. Gornuk is new. And they are what the chapter ends up being titled after. Again, I’m surprised that that’s the thing that’s chosen. But “The Goblin’s Revenge”: This is their revenge. And really, their revenge isn’t revenge, but they certainly think it is. And there’s a few things they say. Ellie made note of one of them.

Ellie: Well, at one point they mention that the reason they go on the run is that they were asked to do “duties ill-befitting of my race,” according to Gornuk, I believe. And it just makes them sound so racist.

Alison: Oh, yeah.

Ellie: What is ill-befitting of anyone? And does that mean that they think themselves better than, for example, house-elves?

Michael: Yes.

Alison: Oh, definitely.

Ellie: I assume that they definitely do. And they obviously, in many ways, as we see later in the book, think of themselves as better than humans and deserving of the same powers because if they had access to wizarding powers then they would overtake the wizarding world themselves, which makes them super scary. But I also just wondered: What were they being asked to do? Was this something to do with hiding the sword, or were they maybe being used like a test subject like Kreacher was? Or was this just something as simple and demeaning as “making me a sandwich”? Because we’re on a sandwich theme tonight.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: We are on a sandwich theme tonight.

Ellie: Who’s hungry?

Michael: See, this is interesting in a lot of ways. I think what this made me think of, actually, is… and I know that I’m treading on eggshells by saying this, but keep in mind, listeners, I am Jewish, when I say this. But there has been an accusation that… of course, there’s a stigma around Jews that Jews work in banks and they have control over all the money. There’s a lot of historical reasons why that stereotype actually carries some truth to it. And that’s not meant in a negative way. Jews were marginalized in a way that ended up putting banks as their only option to work in in history. And there have been accusations against Rowling that it’s racist to have goblins as the bankers, which I don’t agree with. But there is an idea that when you are of a background or race or religion that has been marginalized by society, that sometimes some people choose to take that as an unfairness, but understand that the world is a horrible place in that way. Other people take it out on other people and other races.

Alison: It’s Shylock. That’s what I’m seeing; your connection here is Shylock in Merchant of Venice.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: Really greedy, really wants every last gram…

Alison: Yeah. And also that feeling of superiority, almost.

Michael: Mhm.

Alison: Wow. I never made that connection until right now. But yeah, these goblins are very, very along those lines.

Eric: I’m not seeing that quite because I think it’s intentionally vague what they were, in fact, being asked to do. Goblins are very prideful. We know that they have… I mean, well, if any of us had been paying attention in Professor Binns’s class…

[Alison laughs]

Eric: … we would know that there were multiple rebellions. And whether that was always from a higher power like the humans who tried to contain them, or whether or not it was from each other or things like that, we don’t know because, let’s face it, Binns is a bore. But there’s… I mean, he’s a human, but he’s not very exciting when he talks. That was a pig joke.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: But anyway, he basically… and these goblins are… nobody’s denying that they’re prideful of their race. They own this whole identity as having this rich history of not just banking, but again, goblin-made armor; being excellent forgers. Because they are so prideful, I can see how it would be that they’re saying, “Oh, this is beneath the dignity of my race. We’ve never been servants.” Because you also have house-elves, and house-elves are, as a much bigger issue in the Harry Potter books, the race that, it seems, were made to serve. They love it! Do they really love it? They actually seem to really love it, somehow… some of them. And this is the serving race. And because there is this serving race in these books, that traditionally or historically, whether they’re being mistreated or not, serves, I think it’s perfectly valid for the goblin race to be like, “Oh, I’m no house-elf.” Because that’s the way the world is, where historically there’s this race of people who are serving and they’re so prideful and thinking that, “Oh, this is something that a house-elf would be happy to do.”

Alison and Michael: Mhm.

Eric: And that’s, again, with all sensibilities and all sensitivities… I just think it’s not unreasonable to say… because, again, what is it? But we don’t know what they were being asked to do; if it’s to be a test subject, if it’s to be making a sandwich, [or] if it’s just to relate to people in general. What I tend to think that it is? When reading this chapter, I was like, “Okay, so what is this?” I would have assumed it was even that they were being asked to relate to another race, or make room for another race, or have some sort of reverence or respect toward another race because goblins, I think, historically have kept to themselves so long, or have had to; history has necessitated that they keep it close-knit. And I honestly think that Voldemort would have wanted maybe tribute from them or something else, and it’s just like, “No, we’re goblins. You should leave us alone.”

Michael: Mhm.

Ellie: Do you think it has anything to do with the secrets of Gringotts? They talk about that later.

Alison: It might be.

Michael: I’m inclined to think… I always thought that it was just that the Death Eaters have stormed Gringotts and started telling the goblins what to do and how to run the establishment.

Eric: Just because we know that Griphook works in the bank, it doesn’t mean that Gornuk does. There are one or two other…

Michael: It’s implied that Gornuk works in Gringotts, isn’t it?

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: Well, then I would say it’s more reasonable that we can associate whatever he’s being asked to do with a Death Eater takeover of Gringotts or something because they’re taking over everything else. Politically, it makes sense for them to take over the bank. But yeah, I think it was just in general them being asked to do something they thought was below them. It doesn’t necessarily need to be something too horrible. But it’s just that they’re so prideful.

Michael: Well, and I bring up the history aspects because I think what we’ll find out with Griphook later does call back to history. And really, while Griphook’s demands seem outlandish, I think Harry realizes in his dealings with Griphook that to get what he wants, he needs to respect the fact that Griphook has validation in his history that Harry may not be able to understand fully.

Eric: And I’ll be paying extra attention to this just coming up because there’s, again, that argument over who really possesses…

Michael: The sword.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: The sword. Exactly. And I think Jo sides with Harry, but…

Michael: Yes, she does.

Eric: Yeah, she does, but it’s like, “Okay, so what’s the real truth there and why would you even bring this into such a question? What are you trying to say here?”

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: Because if Harry is right in the end, what does it matter? Why are we thinking about this?

Michael: And speaking of Gryffindor’s sword, we get the little tale that Ginny, Neville, Luna, and some DA supporters have broken into Snape’s office and attempted to steal the sword. They got it about as far as down the stairs before they were caught. [laughs]

Eric: “Elsa. Elsa, don’t take it past the seal. Elsa!”

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: Oh, gosh.

Eric: Anybody? Anybody?

Alison: Oh, man. Yes.

Michael: But they are stopped by Snape and his punishment, I think, is worth noting because Snape just sends them into the forest with Hagrid. I’m sure he did it with many sneers and jibes, but to his credit, Snape gives them a very soft punishment because of course, Snape is a good person, apparently. Or whatever. [laughs]

Alison: Well, this goes back to the idea that we were talking about…

Michael: Last week, yeah.

Alison: Last week? Two weeks ago? That Snape may be trying to protect students in some way. And as much as I don’t like Snape as a person – fascinating character, horrible human being – this is one of his better moments, I think. He is really living up to that; protecting the students of the school.

Michael: Yes, absolutely. One of Dumbledore’s last orders to him.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: Oh, I had forgotten that. Yeah, I think this works on several levels, right? In this chapter, they’re able to have a laugh about it. “Pfft, oh, Snape. What does he think, that’s a bad punishment?” They all had a laugh about it in the forest. I bet Ginny and Hagrid all chuckled so heavily that they got this as a punishment. But it works because Snape is clearly giving them off soft; we find out later that Avery and… was it…?

Ellie: Mulciber.

Eric: … the Carrows are actually performing Crucio curses on students.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: Snape sends them off to the Forbidden Forest? That’s so last year’s punishment.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: That’s so Sorcerer’s Stone! Oh my God!

Eric: Yeah. It’s so Sorcerer’s Stone! But Snape does it. It’s clearly… this should have been the best indicator that Snape is totally a good dude: When they’re all laughing because Snape sent them off to Hagrid, who’s a member of the Order of the Phoenix.

Alison: I was going to say, it probably turned into a strategy powwow more than anything. “Let’s go hide in the forest to figure out what we’re going to do.”

Eric: Yeah. “What could we have done better?” Yeah.

Michael: Or they probably just had a good time in the forest roundly abusing Snape.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: Just being like, “God, he sucks.” [laughs] And Ellie did have a quick question about what was actually going on with the sword.

Ellie: Yeah. Maybe I’m missing something or maybe you guys remember contextually, but what were they planning on doing with the sword once they stole it? Was this just the symbol of their rebellion, or do you think they had something specific in mind? Or maybe somebody was smarter than they are letting on?

Alison: My first thought would be they’re going to try to get it to Harry. Ginny has got the guts, Luna has got crazy ideas that she can make go right, and Neville is the balancing force in this group. It wouldn’t surprise me if Ginny had overheard the will reading and was like, “Hey, this should actually belong to Harry. Maybe he needs it.” She knows they’re hunting Voldemort…

Eric: Okay, that’s the connection. Okay, I like that idea.

Alison: … and so she was like, “They need this. Let’s give it to them. We can do something to help out if we’re stuck here.”

Michael: Awesome offscreen Ginny moment.

Ellie: You guys were saying a few weeks ago that Dumbledore’s will would have been public record at this point.

Alison: Oh, yeah! That, too!

Ellie: So they could have always looked it up, too. Yeah, Alison, that’s a great idea. Yeah, I love that.

Eric: Yeah, I like the idea that she knew about the will and was just like, “This belongs to Harry, I’m his ex-girlfriend, let’s go get it from…” because I always just saw it as a big middle finger to Snape. It’s like, “What, you… former Head of Slytherin house, Headmaster, killer of Dumbledore; you don’t deserve to be in such close proximity to the relic of a great wizard, which you are clearly not, sir, so we’re going to come and take this from you because we’re Gryffindor.”

Alison: [laughs] Well, there was probably a little bit of that, too.

Michael: Well, and of course, plot-wise, this is to get the sword copy out of Hogwarts and into Gringotts, so…

Eric: Oh, is it the copy that they rescue? Don’t spoil me.

Michael: Yes, the copy is the one that they tried to take because Dumbledore put the copy back in the case.

Eric: Ooh. Right, and Snape actually brings Harry the sword.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah, Snape has the sword behind Dumbledore’s portrait right now. That’s where the real one is.

Eric: Oh. There’s a wall safe?

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: Yes, there is a wall safe. Yep.

Eric: No kidding.

Michael: That’s the thing.

Ellie: With a password.

Eric: And Phineas Nigellus didn’t see it because he was blindfolded.

Michael: Well, and Harry and Hermione get very close to being correct about everything…

Alison: Yep.

Michael: … and then when they realize they don’t know where the real sword is, they go completely off-track and lose it.

Alison: Yep. I feel like that’s the basic pattern in this book. “We’re almost there! Oh, wait… no, that can’t have happened so let’s go in the opposite direction.”

Michael: So right, so right. Yep. Yep, that seems to be the general pattern of things. Now, of course, there’s a few more people in this group: Ted Tonks. Ted Tonks doesn’t really drop too much information. His big info drop is about Xenophilius Lovegood, which is essentially just foreshadowing for when we meet up with Xenophilius later and what the Quibbler is up to because, of course, that is the consequence that’s taken out on Luna.

Eric: This was perfect.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: And then the last person, who I don’t think we’ve ever actually seen on screen many times before, but he’s been mentioned and name dropped quite a bit: Dirk Cresswell, who actually has quite a lot to say. He was previously foreshadowed by Arthur Weasley…

Eric: Yep.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: … when Arthur was talking to Harry as Runcorn in the elevator in Chapter 13.

Eric: In the previous chapter.

Michael: In chapter… two chapters ago.

Eric: Two chapters ago, yes.

Michael: Yes, he is mentioned as… Runcorn actually was the one who got Cresswell fired and sent to Azkaban, which leads to yet another funny in-joke. We’ve been keeping an eye out for him; poor John Dawlish has been defeated once again.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Cresswell actually implies…

Eric: It was surprisingly easy.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: Well, yes. And that is because Cresswell implies that Dawlish is still, to this day, suffering the effects of Kingsley’s Confundus Charm…

Alison: Dang, Kingsley.

Michael: … because he is still… he mentions that Dawlish was just a little off when he jinxed him. And it would seem that poor John Dawlish has slowly decreased in his abilities since he has been working for the Ministry. [laughs] But the big thing that Cresswell actually contributes to the conversation, that I think leads perfectly into our final point with the trio, is that Cresswell says, “I reckon he’s the real thing.” Or wait, actually, Dean says: “I reckon he’s the real thing. The Chosen One, whatever you want to call it.” To which Cresswell replies, “‘Yeah, there’s a lot who’d like to believe he’s that, son,’ said Dirk. ‘Me included. But where is he? Run for, by the looks of things. You’d think if he knew anything we don’t, or had anything special going for him, he’d be out there now. Fighting. Rallying resistance. Instead of hiding.'” And I think that line is really important, I think more important than perhaps most place the weight on because I think that’s what gets to Ron because Ron is listening to that line. They all are.

Eric: Ah.

Michael: And Hermione and Harry are taking in all of the very valuable information that’s coming at them. I don’t think Ron is, as evidenced by the fight. And that is our final point here, the group dynamics and the fight. Alison will cry.

Alison: I probably will.

[Michael laughs]

Alison: I get so emotional in this chapter. It just hurts me so much, but we’ll get there.

Michael: The interesting thing about how I try to split this conversation up is that I think there’s a lot in the beginning of this chapter that informs the end, and then Dirk, Dean Thomas, and all of them kind of interrupt in the middle.

Eric: Well, they even speculate that Harry could be dead already and they’re just not publicizing it.

Alison and Michael: Yeah.

Eric: It could go either way, so I love what you said about maybe Ron heard that and was just like, “Man, we should be fighting more than we are now.” But they really just don’t know.

Michael: Mhm. Yep. Speaking of not knowing, Harry… let’s talk about some issues and inadequacies that the trio [is] having right now. Harry’s biggest thing, I would say, probably is his leadership skills. Is that…? No, his leaderships skills get criticized mostly by Ron, somewhat by Hermione. Is that a fair criticism?

Ellie: He’s the elected leader, but he is not chosen to be the leader.

Alison: Yeah.

Ellie: Again, this is the “greatness is thrust upon you,” but sometimes greatness is thrust upon people who are like, “Oh, hell, no.”

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: His leadership skills are lacking because he doesn’t feel like he has the tools and the knowledge he needs to move forward, whereas the last time we saw him being such a strong leader was in the DA, where had something to fight for. He said, “I can do this. I can teach these people things and I can help in this way.” But now he doesn’t have all the information. Thank you, Dumbledore; he doesn’t have all the information. He doesn’t know where to go from here. He has no action to take, and he’s… I mean, I’ve said this a million times: Harry is very, very action-based.

Michael Yeah.

Alison: And he needs to have something to do, and right now he doesn’t have anything to do. He doesn’t know what to do, and so he’s kind of wallowing where he is.

Michael: I’m glad you brought up the DA because I was thinking of that as a shining example of Harry as a leader. But like you said, in the DA he has goals; he has things to teach. He has things to get to, whereas here that’s not happening.

Eric: Well, Hermione has all the cards. She has that book; she has read it. Camping [would] be a great time to read a book. Harry should be taking that book from her, Secrets of the Darkest… whatever it is.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric and Michael: The Horcrux book.

Ellie: But as Alison said, when has Harry ever actually learned anything from a book ever?

Alison: It’s true. He doesn’t read.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: His leadership skills are lacking, but really, is he relying too much on Hermione? No, he needs to.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: He’s relying exactly as much as he needs to because she’s the only one who’s read that book.

Michael: Well, and I guess I asked that more in relation to not so much Harry needing to do it, [but] as whether that’s fair to Hermione because Hermione says the line that I have been waiting for her to say the entire series.

Ellie: Yes.

Eric: Really?

Michael: And it’s all about fish.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: But it’s a fantastic line, and I hate that she is immediately shot down and she doesn’t get to follow up this conversation. But Hermione finally gets fed up with Ron during… this takes place during the same conversation as Gamp’s Elemental Transfiguration Laws. Ron very rudely says, “Don’t replicate this fish because it’s gross,” basically.

[Eric laughs]

Michael: Hermione counters with, “Harry caught the fish and I did my best with it. I notice I’m always the one who ends up sorting out the food because I’m a girl, I suppose,” to which Ron replies, “No, it’s because you’re supposed to be the best at magic.” Wow, first of all. The reason I bring this line up is because we’ve had previous discussions about witches in wizarding culture, and in my opinion, a little too quickly we have rushed to the answer that, “Oh, well, wizards seem to be a little more equal with the gender issues.” And there are instances where we have seen that; where they do seem to be equal on occasion in places like the workforce, sometimes in the home life, [and] certainly at Hogwarts in certain instances. But I feel like to say that that’s a non-issue in the wizarding world invalidates this statement by Hermione because this does not come out of nowhere.

Alison: I am going to disagree with you there.

Michael: Why?

Alison: Because I think Hermione throwing this out here is more of her experiences in the Muggle world than in the wizarding world, and that’s proved by Ron’s retort.

Michael: Hmm. Ooh.

Alison: Because Ron comes back with, “No, it’s because you’re supposed to be the best at magic.” He doesn’t play off of this idea of, “Well, yeah, you’re the girl,” and blah, blah, blah. It’s, “No, you’re supposed to be the best at magic. You’re supposed to be the best at this.” She’s still on equal footing with them.

Eric: Keep in mind he’s just learned a minute ago that you can’t make food out of nothing.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: He’s just learned this. Just learned that.

Alison: Yeah, and so I feel like Hermione thinking this way is more of her Muggle upbringing than the wizarding world’s influence.

Eric: So brilliant. So brilliant.

Alison: Yeah, and that Ron is coming back with the wizarding world perspective.

Michael: And maybe this is speaking from… maybe there’s a… I’m almost inclined to say there’s a mix of wizard and Muggle experience from Hermione because I feel… to me, this line is pent up from years of doing Harry and Ron’s work because actually…

Alison: What was that? [laughs]

Michael: … she does not spare Harry in this. Harry is not targeted by her, but he’s not spared by her in this statement because by saying, “Because I’m a girl,” she’s accusing Harry in that same line.

Eric: Well, and she immediately thinks he’s jumping to Ron’s defense when he shouts at her…

Michael: Yes.

Eric: … but really it’s something else entirely.

Ellie: Yeah.

Michael: But I mean, that’s something she’s accustomed to having happen to her.

Ellie: She also sees this from Ron’s upbringing. Molly Weasley stays home and takes care of her family, and that is sort of the way that Ron – from her perspective at least – would have… it’s what he would’ve expected of her.

Michael: Mhm.

Ellie: And I mean, it’s great that when we know post book canon, she does continue having a career and doesn’t stop working and does succeed for her own rights. But I completely understand why she was worried about this being a feeling for her, and this may reflect her own insecurities about maybe potentially having a relationship with him someday. Like, “Is he going to expect me to be Molly Weasley and have seven children and live in the Burrow?”

Alison and Michael: Yeah.

Eric: Right.

Michael: I think there’s an element of that going on right here. This is a test. This is like when people go out on a trip to test if they’re going to be good apartment buddies.

Alison: Mhm. Yeah.

Michael: [laughs] So…

Eric: Man, all I did was watch a Blackhawks game to see if I was going to be…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I don’t even like sports, but I watched it and I passed the test.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: So there you go.

Alison: I hesitate to accept that though because… oh, man, where did I just see this? I just saw something where J.K. Rowling was talking about Molly Weasley, and she was talking about people’s complaints that Molly is not a good feminist example in Harry Potter. And she says, “No, she is, because she consciously made the choice. She chose to stay and take care of her family and make that her focus.” And that’s feminism. Yay! [laughs] So, that would be my only counter to that. But you could go, the author is dead.

Eric: I will say, going to back to the overview of the chapter … this chapter had so much in it. I just like the idea that the food… as it should, the food has become a problem.

Michael: Yeah.

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: Like eating, day to day, is this huge problem for them. And the analysis of Ron that is done by Harry when he says, “Did you think you’d be eating” – pretty much straight out of the movie – “three square meals a day?” The analysis is this kid has actually always had food, all the time, around him, he has always had it. And so, [the] psychology [of] whether or not he’s a good person or a bad person is not even the issue here. The issue is he has always been fed; he has never known hunger ever.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: And so, he is making a more rocky camping buddy in this time when they’re a little low on food. Because it’s completely irrespective of what kind of person he is, [what] his life history is. He’s always had food.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: So it’s like now…

Alison: And now he’s hangry.

Eric: Now he’s going to be problematic about it.

Michael: Mhm. Well… and so that brings us to Ron. Oh, Ron… you are a big part of this chapter, and you have so much to say. So Ron, first off, he is… to Ron’s credit, he has been through a lot in the last few… as this chapter starts, he’s been through a lot in the last day.

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Michael: He’s missing a chunk of his arm, he doesn’t know how to cook, he’s with two people who also don’t know how to cook, and he doesn’t really hear any progressing plans past what they’ve already done. But notably, with and without the locket around his neck, Ron consciously takes himself out of the group from the start.

Eric: Yes.

Alison: Mhm.

Michael: He does not participate in Hermione and Harry’s conversations because he feels they’re too circular. So he stops [and] he does not give input, which is already an interesting thing to note. I think it’s worth being careful to note when Ron is and is not wearing the locket and what he’s saying at those points. But… and building off of that point about Ron’s upbringing, Ellie had a point about how that contributes to Ron’s behavior.

Ellie: Yeah, I was just thinking about relative privilege, I guess. Because Harry’s always portrayed as sort of lucky. He comes into this money – his dad’s family is from old wizarding money – and from the first time they ever interact, Harry buys all the candy on the trolley. And he’s seen as being… you know, having everything he needs now that he’s in the wizarding world. But in reality, this chapter highlights for me how emotionally wealthy and stable Ron has always been. Because the Weasleys are described as terribly poor – they have so many kids, they use hand-me-down robes – but he’s never had to go hungry. And maybe that’s Molly doing transfiguration on food, but they’ve had enough. They’ve always had enough.

Eric: Oh, man, you guys with Gamp’s duplication thing, she only needs to feed one mouth in the Weasley [family].

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: That’s how they survive.

Michael: One of everything. [laughs]

Eric: She only needs to buy one steak dinner.

Ellie: So there’s no need for wizarding birth control.

[Michael laughs]

Alison: Oh, man.

Eric: One potato

Michael: Always have food.

Eric: … two potato, three potato, four…

[Everyone laughs]

Ellie: I don’t know, I feel very little love for Ron at this moment. He’s just being a weenie.

Eric: Well, he does… this is something that – again, Rupert’s portrayal in the film – the film gets this chapter right, I think.

Alison: Yes.

Eric: There is a whiny component to Ron, but there’s also this character arc that he’s going through that needs to be resolved and isn’t for a long time. But he does actively withdraw – if that’s not a contradiction, I don’t know what [is] – he actively withdraws from the conversation before. When Hermione and Harry are on to something like, “Oh my God, the sword of Gryffindor,” he’s already across the room and he thinks that… I don’t know, he wasn’t thinking clearly but it’s like, what did you expect? If they had noticed [Ron] backing up to go lay in [his] bunk and be a mope, and would have said something, what was your retort then? If they had noticed [Ron] walking away, because now he’s making this huge point about how they didn’t even notice that he wasn’t even in this conversation, “Yeah, I’m still here,” it’s like, you walked away, dude.

Michael: Yeah, I think the…

Eric: What the hell were you thinking?

Michael: The reason this is so effective for the reader, as far as their feelings towards Ron, is because Ron is… and there are so many examples of it and it’s not just the end; there are so many examples throughout the chapter. Ron is being the worst kind of aggressive; he’s being passive-aggressive. He’s doing things to make his feelings known without explicitly saying anything. The most dangerous thing about passive-aggressive behavior is that – and the cleverest thing about people who commit it – they have no blame put upon them because they didn’t actually say or do anything. And that, I think, is what’s so frustrating about Ron from Harry’s perspective, which we the readers get. Because there’s that point – that one really kills me – the one where Harry and Hermione are rehashing where the Horcruxes could be and Ron yawns really pointedly. And Harry looks over and sees the Horcrux necklace on him and… [laughs] he’s “seized by the feeling to throttle him with it.”

[Alison laughs]

Michael: Just for yawning.

Eric: That would have been funny.

Michael: But it’s that knowing yawn of, “Ugh! Heard it. Not interested. You’re boring me.”

Alison: And I’m just going to jump in with the beginning of my defense of Ron… [laughs] because this is going to keep going. Ron Weasley is one of the most accurate, real characters in this entire series, and this is a perfect example of that because he’s in a hard situation. He’s starting to realize his privilege and he’s trying to work through that, and so he’s reacting in a very real way. Dang it! I had this brilliant thing in my head, and now it’s disappearing.

Michael: She had a thesis and everything.

Alison: I did! [laughs]

Michael: Well, no, and I think that’s even a good start because, to be honest, I will probably never read this chapter and feel good about Ron.

Alison: Oh, no, I’m not excusing what he does, because…

Michael: But you’re right, Alison. That goes along with what Eric’s been saying about how Rowling just piles and piles on the misfortune for this group.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: But when you look at it this way, from Ron’s perspective, you could probably double that pile, right?

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: Because he is… as you were saying, initially Ron is trying to accommodate Harry and his mission, but with every passing day, nothing is coming of that. And for Ron, it’s double that because every time he does try to accommodate Harry and make things work, Ron ends up being the butt of that. He ends up suffering for it.

Alison: Yeah. And I think they kind of get in this at the end of the chapter during this fight. But Ron is so concerned about his family, and I think we forget that a lot. He basically just heard some really awful things that could be happening to his family – some of his worst nightmares could be coming true – and he doesn’t know and he’s completely severed off from them right now. I mean, he thinks his little sister, who he’s extremely protective over, could have been in serious danger, could be being seriously punished. There’s that line about “the Weasleys don’t need another hurt kid.” I mean, he doesn’t know at this point how many… does that mean just him and Bill? Does that mean more of his siblings have gotten hurt? There’s so much going on in Ron’s head that I think… like you said, he’s acting in the most real-life way.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: I would actually really agree with that. I think, too, there’s a lot of… some of the comments I browsed over that I didn’t pick for this episode were talking about how Ron is the most relatable, how Ron is not the impenetrable fortress that is Hermione. She’s so cold she got her parents out of the equation by mind controlling them. And Harry doesn’t have that family; Ron has this… I love how you said he has that privilege that he’s just becoming aware of…

Alison: Mhm.

Eric: … that he’s been privileged all this time. And that’s an uncomfortable realization. I think I’ve had that same realization again about food. When I learned how to cook for the first time, I was twenty-something. [laughs] It was ridiculous. It was like, it’s way too late in the game to learn how to cook for yourself, but it’s the first time I needed to do it.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: This is what Ron is going through, not having learned how to do that. It’s an uncomfortable failure of yourself that it’s difficult to admit because you’re partially embarrassed, because you actually want – especially when you’re hungry – you want food and you want to be able to know how to do these things that he just doesn’t. So there is that problem. And then also with the family and the fact that he may be destroyed – that one of them may be seriously injured – to me it underscores the whole struggle of this book that I have, which is, couldn’t they have done it in full view of everyone in the Order? Couldn’t they have defeated Voldemort by enlisting more people’s help, including the Weasleys? Did they really have to go away forever? Because we never hear that The Burrow was searched by Death Eaters. The Burrow actually seems to be maintained pretty well in the books. I mean, all of the Weasleys that I’m recalling show up to fight in the final battle because they haven’t been injured throughout the year at their own home. So, my whole thing is too, Ron wants to know about his family, where they are at, if they’re okay, and there is something to be said for this mission. Because again, Harry’s just going by what Dumbledore said about, “Tell only these two people and go it alone,” and “You’re the only one who can destroy Voldemort.” But it’s kind of crap, and they could have enlisted everyone’s help nearly and maybe would have gotten it done in a more comfortable manner.

Alison: But it’s the hero’s complex.

Eric: Mmm…

Alison: And that’s the main problem, I think, here – that Harry has the hero’s complex of “I alone can destroy this.”

Ellie: Well, and Dumbledore set him up to believe.

Alison: And that’s the problem.

Eric: But there’s nothing wrong with Ron. If they had all chosen to follow Ron, presuming they knew where he went, or if they had made… in fact, I’m trying to recall why they don’t go after Ron. Because…

Alison: Well…

Michael: You mean when he leaves?

Eric: Yeah, because I know she is shouting in the woods at the end of this chapter, but they know where he’s gone and it’s to a protected place.

Alison: Mmm…

Ellie: They don’t, though.

Michael: Not necessarily.

Ellie: They don’t.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: The thing is it’s not safe for them to necessarily go there.

Eric: Okay. If they don’t go…

Michael: They don’t know it at this [point].

Eric: If they go to the Burrow and he’s not there, wait. He’ll be there. It’s the Burrow and it’s protected by all of the magic that the Order can possibly do.

Ellie: But he never went there at all when he was separated from them.

Eric: Ooh.

Alison: Yeah, he…

Ellie: He was too ashamed to go back to the Burrow. He hid out at Shell Cottage.

Eric: Oh, that’s convenient.

Alison: Yeah, and he runs into Snatchers at the beginning.

Ellie: Oh, yeah.

Eric: Yeah.

Alison: When he first…

Michael: Yeah, and I think Hermione and Harry are knowledgeable that following him is dangerous for everybody.

Eric: So poor Ron can’t even escape properly. [laughs]

Michael: [laughs] No, and I think that’s probably… for me as a reader, what was frustrating about this the first time I read it was this felt like the Goblet of Fire thing all over again with, “Oh, Harry, you did this thing and I’m mad at you because you got this and I didn’t… blah, blah, blah,” and the abandonment issues that Ron has with the trio. Now I think as I read Hallows more, I see that this is a different issue. But I think that was the initial frustration. What I think is the frustration for me now as a reader, and I imagine for most readers, is that Ron leaves at the point where they have finally gotten a lead, and Ron is choosing to look at it all as negative and as invaluable. Because Ron is also… Ron, Harry and Hermione are each invalidating each other’s feelings with Ron saying that Harry doesn’t care about the Weasleys and about Ginny. And then Harry is trying to explain and express that he’s caring about them in his own way. It’s interesting because the line from the movie with Ron saying, “You have no family”…

Alison: Oh!

Michael: … is not explictly said here, but it’s said here without being said.

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: That line didn’t come out of nowhere for Steve Kloves, obviously.

Eric: Right.

Michael: It’s in the text, just not explictly.

Alison: Yeah. It hurts so much.

Michael: So I think that’s the part where it hurts the most – that there’s finally a lead and there’s things to go off of, and that’s when Ron chooses to get angry and leave.

Eric: It’s just interesting to me that the Horcrux has offered Harry possibly some insight and has offered Ron maybe some insight. Because remember when Harry is wearing the locket – I’m pretty sure he’s wearing the locket – and he sees that Hermione and Ron are off whispering and creating distance…

Alison: And it plays on his insecurities.

Eric: And he specifically gets the inkling that at some point – and I’m not sure whether he’s wearing the locket – while he’s wearing the locket or not… I’m pretty sure it is…

Michael: It is.

Eric: He gets the inkling that they think that he would have known more about what to do and he doesn’t. Over the last few places they’ve travelled, he’s just specifically gotten a vague idea that they wanted… they thought he would know more. And then that’s actually overtly stated… Ron uses that as one of the reasons why he’s upset.

Alison and Michael: Yeah.

Eric: And then, similarily, Ron is wearing the locket and then he… but I guess the difference is, he creates the distance between… the Horcrux is telling him there is this alliance between Harry and Hermione that is somehow more dedicated or more heartless than he is when it comes to his family. And so he’s creating that distance, but he chooses to leave because he thinks he has to. He essentially makes Harry and Hermione’s relationship stronger by leaving.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: It’s like he’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. By forcing them to be each together…

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: … he makes them stronger together than they would have been otherwise.

Michael: Which is interesting that you bring that up because what I did want to touch on – because, like you said, Eric, this chapter has done – even with the elimination of the other campers, this chapter has, I think, done excellent justice in the movie. But what’s interesting about how the movie approaches this argument is, I feel the movie places more weight on Ron’s misinterpretation of Harry and Hermione’s relationship and less weight on Harry’s inadequecy.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: I think the book stresses Harry’s inadequecy.

Alison: But I think that’s because Steve Kloves was a Harmione [Harmony] shipper. [laughs] And like he insisted…

Eric: And David Yates.

Alison: [laughs] And Yates just insisted that…

Ellie: Also, the books are from Harry’s perspective, whereas the movie is more from a third-person perspective. We are watching the movie, whereas we are reading Harry’s thoughts on the experience. So the book is more subjective to who directed it. I don’t know, just the movie…

Michael: No, I think with that you can take it or leave it because Kloves left it – he may be a shipper in that respect – he left it, I believe, ambiguous enough that you can choose how you want to interpret it, but it is just really interesting to me because Kloves reinterprets Harry watching Hermione and Ron whispering about him. He reinterprets and reinvents it as Ron watching Harry and Hermione bonding.

Alison and Ellie: Yes.

Michael: Because those seeds are still there, they are just swapped with who is who but they are the same seeds and I just thought that was a really interesting choice because it still, for me, it works in the movie and it really highlights Ron’s… even though, I think, the family stuff is very important and it’s brought up by the locket, I think the ultimate issue that the locket finally touches a nerve on is the relationship that Ron perceives between Harry and Hermione and the movie chooses to, I think, hone in on that because that is what the locket chooses as its ultimate button pressing. Whereas in the book, the relationship Ron sees between them is thrown in as a last jibe before he leaves. He just says it out of the blue, “Oh, you chose him. Okay.”

Ellie: But that would be so embarrassing for him to admit. He would not have wanted to say that earlier.

Alison: Yes.

Ellie: If you have ever really liked somebody and they are into someone else or you think they are into someone else so you are going to be complaining about it and it will just make you look like a…

Eric: Yes, you do not really throw that… no, that would create more distance.

Alison: Yes.

Ellie: Never tell a girl that you like her, it makes you look like an idiot.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Eric: Hermione doesn’t choose Harry nearly as much as her Shield charm chooses Harry over Ron.

Alison: Yes.

[Alison, Ellie, and Michael laugh]

Ellie: When they are separated… her wand only cast two Shield Charms and it’s only meant to separate Harry from Ron, but the Shield Charm that goes around Harry is also covering Hermione and the Ron one is just Ron.

Ellie: That’s great, I love that. It’s the battle lines being drawn right there.

Eric: Exactly.

Michael: That gets into the interesting points, I think, that I will get into in future chapters about the issues of loyalty and about Ron coming back and Hermione’s choice to stay. Unfortunately, we have run the gambit for discussion here and Ellie, I love your point about the Deluminator.

Ellie: Yes, no, it is just not contextual right now.

Michael: I think we are going to have to take it out just because it is…

Alison: It is just so Ron.

Michael: It is great for another chapter down the line.

Ellie: I would love to come back.

[Michael laughs]

Michael: Before we end, though, I think Alison touched on it a little bit and I wanted to just point the listeners to this little Tumblr post that actually was found by one of our MuggleNet staff, Ariel. So, by the way, hi Ariel.

Eric: Hi, Ariel.

Alison: Hi, Ariel.

Michael: Thank you for finding this. We love you, darling. But this post – and I won’t read the whole thing, but I’ll just summarize it – it was from a Tumblr user named DamnedifIdo – which is a great username – and unfortunately the original post is gone but it has been, of course, reposted throughout Tumblr and it’s essentially explaining that Ron is – this is a very interesting theory – that Ron is consciously by Rowling written as a racist.

Eric: What?

Michael: And the post clarifies that he is not as racist as Malfoy but that Ron has certain prejudices against say, when Lupin shows up, when he reveals that he is a werewolf, house-elves and their place in society and even Hagrid and half giants as we see in Goblet of Fire. And what the writer of this post said is that it’s actually a really brilliant move on Rowling’s part because Ron evolves.

Ellie: Yes.

Michael: And I actually termed this form of racism that the writer was referring to, in my life I actually call it passive racism or casual racism because I encounter it every day. I cannot tell you how many people come up to me at work and are like, “So are you Indian? Because I have a friend who is Indian.” And I am like, “Yes.” And then they say, “What is India like? Have you ever been?” And I am like, “No, I was adopted when I was three months old. I have no experience of this.” And it is well-intentioned. It is well-intentioned. It is not meant to disrespect, but it is an accidental disrespect, and I think Ron commits this a lot. And in that same respect, Ron also commits a lot of gaffs in his social life, and this chapter is the culmination of that. And like you were saying, Alison, earlier, I think, as hard as it is to digest about Ron especially because we are getting it from Harry’s perspective and Harry is not invalid in his perspective because Ron does say awful things, but Ron grows and learns from this and this isn’t… the Ron you’re seeing right now is not the Ron that’s going to permanently stick around…

Ellie: No.

Michael: … I guess, is what’s important to keep in mind, perhaps.

Alison: It goes back to this idea of privilege and I think everyone who’s been lucky enough to have been born in this kind of privilege has had to go through this process. I don’t know if I would call it necessarily – I guess it is racism – but it’s more – it’s coming from a place of not being educated. And…

Michael: It is… well yes…

Alison: … not having that respect.

Michael: And racism can come from ignorance.

Alison: Exactly. And so I think it’s this thing where everyone who has been in a family situation like Ron’s has had to go through this process of starting to see and understand that they do have privilege and they have to deal with that and accept… not accept, but find that other people haven’t had that and work through that and start to see them from that perspective and that’s why I think Ron is one of the realistic characters because he goes through that because he comes out better on the other side for it. And that’s a… I love Ron.

Eric: I don’t know that we have an example of him coming out better. For his… what I have a problem with in this discussion is …

Michael: [coughs] House-elves.

Eric: … that might be easy except I wasn’t… I’m not going to say that… what I am going to say is the prejudice that Ron has for werewolves for instance comes from… there is this overt… arcing… prejudice that is bad promotional material… [laughs] a lot of slandering… a lot of… just basically ignorance that the wizarding community has and prejudice towards to werewolves as a whole and he was raised the same way that… he was raised to believe what Remus’s father was as well that werewolves are no good they have no capacity for change. Now this is something that unlike Lupin’s father Ron is still a child and there’s a natural… part of anyone’s growth is realizing that no… that stereotypes are not truths and that every single being in the universe is not tied down by their race or where they came from that everyone… and that people generally have the capacity for change – that’s growth. What isn’t necessarily what you can… while I don’t think you can call Ron a character who frees himself of prejudice or racism is that they get a werewolf friend who’s the best teacher that Harry ever freakin had. And that’s why Ron is, “Oh, I guess not all werewolves are bad.” Some people change their opinions of things…

Michael: [laughs] You mean that thing when people are like, “Yeah, I have a gay friend or I have a black friend.”

Eric: Some people change their opinions of things because they’ve grown to except that there’s no one answer or no one way about the world – without needing to have a werewolf friend who is the best teacher that Harry ever had. I don’t know if that is overly critical… I don’t even know if it’s on point because it is in the night but…

[Alison laughs]

Eric: … I think that for me it’s… I’m not saying Ron’s racist, I’m not saying he’s not racist, but they one reason he doesn’t still go around picking on werewolves because of the sacrifice that had been made nearest to him by werewolves.

Ellie: Ron’s said that the average consumer of institutional racism… he’s just the average person…

Eric: Mhm.

Ellie: … who goes threw… I like Alison’s point, actually. I was hitting on Ron earlier, but to be fair and to acknowledge that he is a tremendously realistic character if you look at what’s going on in the world right now in America right now. Where we had this…

Michael: Yeah.

Ellie: … terrorist act in Paris and America in parts of our country people are freaking out that we might allow the same quantities of refugees in that we were already planning on allowing. Whereas France in response to this attack was like, “Yeah, we should have three times this many refugees come here as we are allowing to come in America,” which is – by the way – a much larger country… geography lesson of the day.

Eric: Yeah.

Alison: Yep.

Michael: Yeah. No, I think that’s definitely… I think that’s a part to come from this chapter with and that will revisit when Ron comes back. Is… that Ron is… and we’ve mentioned this before in previous episodes that again we’re getting things from the perspective of Harry who does have the saving people thing and a very kamikaze attitude about life. He’s very self-sacrificial and it’s very admirable in that quality just as much as Hermione is admirable in her quality of soaking up knowledge and being people the best at almost everything and then there’s Ron who is an everyman.

Ellie: Mhm.

Michael: … he’s… we find that… I don’t say this in a mean way. He, in many ways, is not exceptional in the ways that Harry and Hermione are, but that’s also what makes him an important part of this trio is that there’s a relatable grounded element to Ron that Hermione and Harry don’t always have. And on that note, despite that as much as we love Ron and his character growth, he is a butt.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Michael: And that is the end…

Eric: Ron’s a butt!

Alison: I will always love Ron Weasley, though.

Michael: Alison will always love Ron Weasley. [laughs]

Ellie: Some people hate Ron Weasley, and some people are wrong.

Eric: Yeah.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: However you wanted to end that chapter, I think Alison gets the last laugh or the last word because she’s got the Podcast Question.

Alison: Haha. Well, yes, I do get the last word on this discussion, because I have this week’s Podcast Question of the Week. And since this chapter has a lot of things happening to Ron, it’s all about Ron. So in this chapter, Ron Weasley becomes less of an active part of the trio. From simply yawning during a Horcrux discussion to leaving the room during Harry and Hermione’s epiphanies, Ron experiences troubling thoughts in this chapter, which lead to his departure. Which actions of Ron’s are a result of well-reasoned thought, and which are emotional responses due to his wearing of the Horcrux? Would he have made the choices he did had he not been influenced by the Horcrux, or would he have still chosen his worry over his family without the Voldy-soul influence?

Michael: Or is he just a butt?

Alison: No! Ron Weasley love! I need some.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Alison: Bring me some Ron Weasley love. And do that over on our main site at alohomora.mugglenet.com.

Eric: Well, we would love to thank this week’s guest, Ellie. Ellie, thank you so much for joining us and staying up so late with us, talking about this chapter.

[Alison laughs]

Ellie: Yeah.

Michael: Ellie is not a butt.

[Alison laughs]

Ellie: Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be not a butt.

Eric: No, she’s a fox.

Ellie: Ha! True.

[Michael laughs]

Ellie: I’ve never heard that before. Thanks, guys.

Eric: Aww.

[Alison, Ellie, and Michael laugh]

Michael: But yes, you were a fantastic guest, Ellie. Thank you so much for all of your contributions to the show. We really appreciate it. You were an excellent guest. And if you listeners would like to join us on the show, just like Ellie, and contribute all of your thoughts, now is the time because Eric is counting down the chapters.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: He has a little checkmark next to every one. And rightfully so. We’re getting low on Deathly Hallows chapters. So if you would like to be on the show, please visit the “Be on the Show” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. If you have a set of headphones as well as a microphone or a set of headphones with a built-in microphone, you’re pretty much all set. You also need some recording equipment on your computer, but we really don’t require any fancy equipment. And while you’re on our main site, make sure and download a ringtone because they are free like Dobby, who is also free.

Alison: Aww.

[Michael laughs]

Alison: And if you also just want to keep in contact with us, even through these late hours of the night that we’re up right now, you can tweet us at @AlohomoraMN, find us on Facebook at facebook.com/openthedumbledore, on Tumblr we are mnalohomorapodcast.tumblr.com, on Instagram we are @alohomoramn, or you can call our phone number 206-GO-ALBUS, which is 206-462-5287, or head on over to our main site and send us an owl on audioBoom – alohomora.mugglenet.com. It’s perfectly free. Just keep them under 60 seconds so we can play them on the show. And we are coming soon to Google Play. Woo-hoo!

Michael: Yay, Google Play! And in the meantime, you can also visit our Alohomora! store where we have plenty of products for you, including House shirts as well as plenty of other shirts and other products that bear the many in-jokes from the show, including the Desk!Pig, Mandrake Liberation Front, Minerva Is My Homegirl, and so many more. We actually have a new graphic artist on our team, so we’re hoping to get her some of our designs so that we can get you guys new products in that store soon.

Eric: And there is an, in the land and the world of smartphones, which Michael has recently joined… wait, have you?

Michael: Nope, not until December 15 is when I’m…

Alison: Ooh.

Michael: … allowed to become part of your world.

Eric: Less than a month…

[Alison laughs]

Eric: Less than one month before Michael can download…

Alison: Can join the digital age.

Eric: … the Alohomora! app. Which is actually an app called Podcast Source. Everybody with the smartphone, who is essentially everybody in the word except for Michael, please go…

Michael: I want to be where the smartphones are…

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Michael: I want to hear, want to hear them ringing.

Eric: Walking around on those… what are they called? Feet.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: Yeah. Oh, God.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: Out where they run, listening to…

Alison: Podcasts all day in the sun.

Michael: [laughs] It’s over. The song is over.

Alison: We can’t do it. [laughs]

Eric: Smartphone app. It’s free and includes transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and more. Once again, our app is called Podcast Source and find out all the information you need to download that over on our website, alohomora.mugglenet.com. Well, guys, this has been a massive discussion.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: Thank you for those who stuck with us, and thank you shoutout to Patrick for editing this episode.

Alison: Patrick.

Ellie: Sorry, Patrick.

Michael: Sorry, Patrick.

[Show music begins]

Eric: I am Eric Scull.

Michael: I’m Michael Harle.

Alison: And I’m Alison Siggard. Thank you for listening to Episode 165 of Alohomora!

Eric: Open the Dumbledore. Or, once you’ve got it, duplicate it, duplicate it, duplicate it, duplicate it… [“duplicate it” continues to be repeated]

[Show music continues]

Ellie: [singing] I want to be where the smartphones are. I want to hear, want to hear ’em ringing. [laughs] Walking around on those… What do they call ’em? Feet. [laughs] Out where they run listening to songs on their phones. The… Ah, God.

Eric: What about the Dementors in the town?

Alison: Yeah.

Eric: Dementortown. He goes to Halloweentown.

Alison: [laughs] Dementortown.

Eric: He goes to… Harry goes to Halloweentown.

Michael: Dementortown.

Alison: [singing] This is Halloweentown.

Eric: [singing] This is Halloween, do do do do do do.

[Alison and Ellie laugh]

Alison: I actually kind of hate that movie. Sorry.

Eric: Should Harry have gone back and tried to save that town of their damned Dementor problem?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Harry just caused…

Ellie: Yeah, that was very confusing. If…

Eric: All of those Muggles that paid…

Alison: That’s true, though.

Eric: Ron didn’t get his bacon sandwich.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: And first of all, they didn’t summon it with Accio, like they should have, because that’s his second favorite spell.

[Alison and Ellie laugh]

Eric: And once he…

Alison: Should Harry use Accio more?

Eric: I’m pretty sure that they still are in the town when they decide to leave the town for food. They take their… He goes back to the tent, they discover that it was the Horcrux, he takes it off, but then they’re all still there, and then Hermione is like, “Let’s go somewhere else and find food.”

Ellie: Who’s hungry?