Transcript – Episode 153
[Show music begins]
Caleb Graves: This is Episode 153 of Alohomora! for August 29, 2015.
[Show music continues]
Caleb: Hey everyone, welcome to our last episode for the month of August. I’m Caleb Graves.
Michael Harle: I’m Michael Harle.
Alison Siggard: And I’m Alison Siggard. And today our guest is Ann, who is also known as The Head Girl. Welcome, Ann!
Ann: Thank you! I’m glad to be here.
Alison: Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into Harry Potter.
Ann: Well, I live in Chicago. I work in customer service and I got into Harry Potter, I feel like, the same way a lot of folks did. It was right between the time between Prisoner of Azkaban and Goblet of Fire.
Michael: Yeah.
Ann: I was about sixteen and I was religiously abstaining from the Harry Potter books because they were popular. So I figured if they were popular, they couldn’t be any good.
[Michael laughs]
Ann: And then my friend basically shoved Sorcerer’s Stone in my hand and said, “You have to read this.” So then I did, and that was fourteen years ago and it’s changed my life. I’m also a Slytherin.
Alison and Michael: Ooh!
Caleb: Cool.
Ann: And Pottermore gave me the same wand wood as Lucius Malfoy, the same wand flexibility as Bellatrix Lastrange, and the same wand core as Lord Voldemort.
Alison: Ooh.
Caleb: Wow.
Michael: Oh my goodness.
Ann: So I’m pretty sure Pottermore thinks I’m evil.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: Well, we haven’t gotten that impression so far.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Listeners, Ann sent us a very fantastic defense of Percy Weasley, which was really excellently argued as her audition. And I believe, Ann, you also said in one of your recordings that you’re the only member of the Percy Weasley Fan Club…
Ann: President and only member. [laughs]
Michael: You can… if you would like… if you are are willing, I would love to sign up for that club.
Ann: Yes!
Michael: Because I am totally a fan of Mr. Percy Weasley.
Alison: [laughs] Me, too.
Michael: [laughs] I wish we were talking about him today. I wish he was in this chapter because you had such great discussion about him. But of course, you’ve been around on the main site. For the listeners who don’t know, what’s your screen name over on the main site?
Ann: [My] screen name is The Head Girl. I haven’t been around as much recently because I’ve been really busy, but I’m still always reading the comments.
Michael: Oh, good. So you’re still participating.
Ann: Yes.
Michael: And you’re finally on the show.
Ann: I know! I’m so excited.
[Michael laughs]
Ann: I’ve been a listener since day one, so I’m really excited to finally be here.
Caleb: Oh, man.
Alison: Oh, nice.
Caleb: Thanks for sticking around for so long.
Ann: Of course.
Michael: For the beginning of the end.
[Ann laughs]
Caleb: I’ll forgive you for being a Percy fan.
Ann: Oh gee, thanks.
[Ann, Caleb, and Michael laugh]
Alison: Well, we’re not talking about Percy today, but we are discussing Chapter 3 of Deathly Hallows, which is “The Dursleys Departing.” So we just want to remind everyone to read that before you listen to our discussion.
Caleb: But before we do that, we’re going to recap some of your comments from our previous episode. We’re going to start that off with an audioBoom to close out a discussion that actually started with Chapter 1 and continued last week. So we’re going to play that now.
[Audio]: Hi everyone, this is Patronus Dust 8 and I have some comments about the discussion of Chapter 1 of [Deathly] Hallows. I think that part of the flaw in Voldemort’s plan is the fact that he cannot even begin to imagine Dumbledore giving up his own life for the sake of anything. He is too afraid of death, unaware of the human condition and how someone like Dumbledore could possibly sacrifice himself for the sake of others, or for a worthy cause. Because of this, Voldemort now is over his head with The Only One He Ever Feared being out of the way and doesn’t think that Snape killing Dumbledore could mean something else. He trusts Snape completely and that was part of Dumbledore’s plan. I think the idea that Voldemort was doubtful of Snape at this point came from the movie where he does cast a look at Snape, but in the book it doesn’t happen. The omnipresent narration doesn’t convey Voldemort’s point of view or describe him, so we can only say that he was playing with Nagini’s food in that split second. Voldemort does point out that he got Burbage, not only because she taught at Hogwarts, corrupting and polluting the minds of Wizarding children, but because she wrote an article supporting the idea of accepting Muggles and dwindling purebloods which Voldemort found as reprehensible. Thank you for the awesome show and keep up the good work.
Caleb: All right, so like I said, we brought this up in the first chapter obviously and continued last week. But what do we think? How much does this affect Voldemort with his not being able to understand Dumbledore giving up his life for the sake of others?
Michael: I think that’s exactly what was said in the audioBoom. I think that’s exactly the downfall on Voldemort’s part. I did think the conversation last week was interesting about – well, the past two weeks rather – about what happened with Charity Burbage and whether that was a test for Snape, because I never saw it as a test for Snape myself. I don’t think Voldemort… like the comment said, I don’t think Voldemort had a reason to test Snape by that point because Voldemort doesn’t think of death as something that you welcome or greet, and he just thought Dumbledore was a fool anyway. And Snape probably had the… if Voldemort asked for an account from Snape or any of the Death Eaters, he had the picture, which Dumbledore very cleverly set up, that Snape killed Dumbledore – not as a mercy kill or as a planned kill, but as an obligated thing that he was told to do.
Alison: Yeah. I definitely think that Dumbledore understood this part of Voldemort and set Snape up to be in this position because Voldemort wouldn’t understand the circumstances surrounding Dumbledore’s death. I definitely think that’s what happened there. I think that’s a big part of that.
Caleb: All right. Well, the next comment is probably the topic that dominated all of the comments from last week’s episode. I only picked two to show two different sides of the discussion, but definitely some really great thoughts from all of our listeners, so head over to the main site to see some of those after this. But this first one comes – sorry, it’s on the topic of Dumbledore and Elphias Doge’s relationship – and this first one comes from Dumbledore’s through & through:
“For me, the impression I got from Doge’s article was that no, he wasn’t as close to Albus as Hermione and Ron are to Harry, but the reason for that might be that no one ever was really close to Dumbledore in this way, except for Grindelwald in these two months of their friendship. I think basically Dumbledore was someone who rarely experienced such close relationships, maybe because of his family background, or because he was always much more intelligent than everyone around, and that made it difficult to connect, or a combination of both. He always kept a lot to himself, barely opened up to someone; he had his family secrets to hide all the time. So Doge was a close friend to him, as close as someone like him could get to Dumbledore. At least he knew the Dumbledore family; he knew about Ariana. He might have even known or suspected something about Grindelwald, and that’s telling.”
And the comment goes on to analogize that with the relationship with Dumbledore and Harry, saying that maybe Harry and Dumbledore weren’t as close either. And in response – taking another side of it is Sarah Weiler, I believe, and the comment says,
“I disagree here. Harry and Dumbledore are not in a student/teacher relationship. Like Book 1 points out, ‘There are some things you can’t share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them.’ Explaining to someone they must either kill or be killed by an all-powerful Dark Lord would also fit that description, I think. It’s […] no different th[a]n people of completely different backgrounds, who otherwise never would have met each other, becoming lifelong friends after [going through] war together. Dumbledore is absolutely wrong for not sharing his past or his feelings with Harry, and he doesn’t deserve forgiveness for it. His predictable disaster with the [R]esurrection [S]tone should have proved to him that he has to talk about that side of himself, especially to someone whom he demands that information from. How many times has Dumbledore asked Harry how he’s feeling? Dumbledore knows Harry’s past, present, and future, and he knows his past and future better than even Harry does himself. I’m all for flawed characters in literature, but I just wish we’d all agree this was one of Dumbledore’s biggest flaws.”
So there’s a lot to unpack there.
Michael: I will touch on Elphias Doge first, because I was absolutely floored at the discussion last week that you guys suggested that they weren’t even good friends. [laughs]
Caleb: I have to agree…
Michael: I was totally taken aback by that because there is somebody I’m following on Twitter – their Twitter handle is @siriusjustice. They just came through my feed somehow – and I believe they were retweeted – and I started following them because they are also rereading the Harry Potter books – and they are in Deathly Hallows – and when they got to Elphias Doge’s letter, they actually put forth the suggestion, which I found fascinating, that Elphias might have actually had romantic feelings for Dumbledore.
Caleb: One of our listeners also brought this up in the comments.
Ann: Huh. Interesting.
Michael: And I actually think there’s a lot of that that comes through in the article and definitely a lot that… and we’ll get into that in the chapter with the wedding, but Elphias’s reaction to Aunt Muriel’s complete defaming of Dumbledore is very passionate. It’s very emotional, unusually so, I think, for a lot of examples that we’ve seen in the series. I think that for that part of their life, Doge and Dumbledore were very strongly connected, as suggested by the article. Just because Dumbledore didn’t tell Doge these things about his family in great detail doesn’t mean they weren’t strongly connected. That would be equatable to saying that Harry and Dumbledore weren’t strongly connected, which is, I think, the argument that Sarah Wheeler is trying to make, that just because that wasn’t shared, that doesn’t mean that that relationship didn’t go past student-teacher into strong friendship, which I think, obviously, it did, which that’s what Dumbledore says is the flaw in his plan, is that he did allow it to become a friendship.
Alison: I’m understanding it [as] they’re saying that Dumbledore doesn’t ask Harry how he’s feeling.
Caleb: Well, I think it’s that, from when I read it, Dumbledore does ask Harry how much he’s feeling, but he doesn’t share the same to Harry about himself, what he’s going through.
Alison: Okay. That makes sense, then. Because sometimes he’ll listen to when Harry talks about how he’s feeling, but he doesn’t really ask Harry ever really how he’s doing emotionally with everything that’s happening. But then that’s also… Harry wears his heart on his sleeve, isn’t going to hide that at all, so is there a reason to ask that? I think that’s an interesting question to ask: Does that affect their relationship?
Michael: Huh. Gosh. There’s so much here. I actually don’t agree, Alison.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: I don’t think Harry wears his heart on his sleeve. I think he’s very guarded about his feelings, but he’s in that way where the stereotypical teenager, when somebody’s like, “What’s wrong?” and they’re like, “Nothing… [scoffs]“
[Alison laughs]
Michael: That’s Harry. He doesn’t so much wear his heart on his sleeve as he just doesn’t… I don’t think Harry… the books… more this reread than ever before for me, I’ve really realized how bad Harry is at expressing his emotions. It’s almost a plot point in itself, that issue in Harry, because it’s something that he does have to learn to come to terms with, and especially against somebody like Dumbledore who is very much, seemingly at first, an open book who’s happy to tell you how he’s feeling, and Dumbledore loves being at least candid about very odd little things that most people wouldn’t talk about. It seems to make him quirky, but when it comes down to it, he’s not truly… I guess what Sarah Wheeler is suggesting is that there isn’t a proper reciprocation [from] Dumbledore in the relationship of asking so much of Harry as far as being a friend and asking what he’s feeling and whatnot but then not giving Harry any of his own history and self, which is a big…
Ann: Yeah, that’s fair.
Michael: We’ve talked about this before, but the conflict there is that Dumbledore… I do agree: Dumbledore made mistakes by not telling Harry certain things about his past, but again, this is something we’re going to get into a lot more with Dumbledore as we go on and as the book slowly reveals more about his past, but I frequently find a lot to relate to about Dumbledore’s story, having a brother with autism and having had a family who was pretty much shut in our house for years and really didn’t talk about what happened to us, and a lot of, I think, families with individuals with disabilities share that. Because I equate Ariana as an individual with a disability. I think that’s what she’s meant to represent. And I don’t really blame Dumbledore, actually, for not sharing a lot of those things. It’s a very difficult thing to have to share that stuff. There’s a very big cathartic release that comes from it that I don’t think Dumbledore was ready for, and in his case, it also surrounded the ambiguity of who killed her, which is another big, mammoth issue for him. There’s just so much to release with that that I don’t think Dumbledore was willing to release.
Caleb: I mean, yeah. I agree. I think I’ve voiced this opinion throughout the series that – especially lately – Dumbledore does a lot of things that I have problems with. Setting Harry up to have to sacrifice himself I don’t think was done the perfect way, but I agree with you, Michael. I don’t think he was in a place where he was ready to share this, his past. And I think that’s a whole separate issue than how he deals with setting Harry up and giving him information for that. I get there are connections between the two, but for me, I see those [as] very different things.
Michael: No. Yeah, I think that’s absolutely true. I think in Dumbledore’s mind with what he sets Harry up for, his personal family history does not tie up with the rest of it. That’s not important. It ends up just accidentally being stumbled upon and tying into everything.
Alison: Well, I also think this works into the person Dumbledore is. He doesn’t look back. He’s always looking forward. I mean, he tells Harry, “It doesn’t do to dwell on dreams.” He’s very much “Let’s just let the past be the past, and let’s just move on,” which I think this is a perfect example of, is he’s not going to dwell on his family situation. I mean, it’s always there, because there’s trauma in that past, but he’s not going to put that onto the next generation and onto Harry by giving that to him. So yeah, okay. I see that.
Michael: Harry has got plenty to deal with right now.
[Ann and Michael laugh]
Michael: Ann, and we should ask, too, since this is your first chance being on the show, what are your general feelings on Dumbledore and his past?
Ann: I feel like he was… I understand what you guys are saying about the catharsis, how he’s not ready to share that yet, but at the same time, I feel like if you are too guarded, then there’s not really a point to him witholding everything. If he had mentioned to Harry that they were both from Godric’s Hollow, I feel like that might have been a more point of connection for them and maybe made Harry feel more connected to him. So when you’re hiding just for hiding’s sake, then it’s not helpful anymore.
Michael: No, that’s true, because as we see, that is in a way what leads to one of Dumbledore’s greatest mistakes, which is putting the Resurrection Stone on his finger. That is a part of that. He keeps that sealed up so tightly that he… it undoes him at the end.
Caleb: Yeah. And just to circle back, like I said, there are so many comments on […] Dumbledore’s relationship with Elphias Doge, since that was such a big discussion last week, and how that plays [into] his relationship with Harry. For me, I just never really connected the two that seems to be the connection between so many of the comments that because Dumbledore didn’t have a strong relationship with Doge, that affected the way he dealt with Harry. But those were always two separate things for me. Like you, Michael, for me, I think it’s because I never really questioned the relationship being the very close and genuine one between Dumbledore and Doge.
Michael: Yeah, there were people in the comments who were like, “Doge just did this for publicity too. He was just trying to make it look like he was good friends with Dumbledore and that he knew him better than anybody else,” and I was like, “Woah! No. Not at all.” That’s not ever the tone I’ve gotten from that article.
Caleb: Which is cool, right, because we, you and I, clearly never questioned that. But clearly a lot of people…
Michael: A lot of people did.
Caleb: … felt very strongly…
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: … on the other side, which is interesting.
Ann: Yeah, I know I always kind of got that vibe from them – you know you’ve always got that one friend where they like you a lot more than you like them?
[Everyone laughs]
Ann: You hang out with them and they’re cool, but it’s kind of uneven.
Caleb: Sure.
Alison: Yeah.
Ann: That’s the feeling I got from that relationship.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Well, and that’s I think why the suggestion has been put forth that there might have been feelings on Elphias’s part because he is just so passionate now when he talks about Dumbledore, and again, his reaction to Muriel’s statements in the coming chapters was very emotional, and I think that really throws people off because from what we do gather, despite this passionate response, Doge and Dumbledore haven’t gone drinking every night in Hogsmeade…
Ann: Yeah.
Michael: … for the past seven years. The implication is that their relationship was much more rich and ripe at Hogwarts in their high school days as opposed to their adult years, and that they seem to have kind of hit a rift, especially over the issue of the trip, and Dumbledore not being able to go, and Doge kind of showing off like, “Oh, I went here and here and here and you didn’t.”
Caleb: Mhm.
Alison and Ann: Yeah.
Michael: I think that did cause a problem with their relationship, at least it’s certainly hinted at. But Doge still seems to just harbor these great affections for Dumbledore, not just for his accomplishments, but for what he did as a friend, so…
Caleb: Right.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: … after all this time.
Alison: I think the thing we kind of touched on that I have always seen in that obituary is that kind of tone of hero worship almost that’s in there.
Michael: Hmm.
Ann: Mhm.
Ann: And so I don’t think I’d ever thought before that maybe he wasn’t as close, but I always got that kind of hero worshippy, “This person has died so they’re better than I would’ve said two weeks ago,” you know?
Ann: Right.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: That’s always the tone I got from that article.
Caleb: So the next comment comes on the topic of Harry seeing Dumbledore’s death. And I think this was a question Rosie posed last week, and there was a lot of discussion in the comments again this week. This comment is from You’reGettingonMinerva, which is a wonderful username.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: And the comment says,
“Rosie – I think Dumbledore arranged for Harry to watch him be killed by Snape for a couple of reasons, but the main one I truly believe is so when Harry finds out that he asked Snape to kill him, Harry can see that he willingly faced death for ‘the greater good’ much like Harry will be forced to do in the end. So in other words, I believe he was leading by example. Also, this way Harry could see how it really went down. If Harry hadn’t been there, how would we know what truly happened and who cast the [K]illing [C]urse.”
And someone, I just want to also make a note, that said it was probably important for Harry to see it to happen to understand the dynamic of the Elder Wand later in the book.
Ann: Yeah.
Michael: I did not realize, because we are still talking about this moment and Half-Blood Prince is so far behind us, guys.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: We’re still talking about this key moment. I did not realize that this is one of the core moments that, it would seem, the fandom is very upset about. Because I never really… and it makes sense thinking that it was that planned to a T because there’s so many important things in this moment that Harry had to see that were essential to the rest of the journey. But I still wonder if this wasn’t exactly… quite the way Dumbledore had it planned out. It certainly doesn’t seem to be based on how it goes down.
Ann: Mhm.
Caleb: Sure.
Michael: There seems to have been a few mistakes made.
Alison: I would definitely agree with that. I don’t think this is, at all, how this was all supposed to play out.
Ann: No.
Caleb: Yeah, right because I think it’s just a lot of things happened to happen this way, and that’s just how Harry has to react to it, and the Elder Wand bit, I think that’s just fortunate that he’s able to piece it together later. Obviously, Jo made some choices writing, but I think we know from the end of Half-Blood Prince that Dumbledore didn’t expect a lot of things to happen and he certainly didn’t expect people to attack, so I don’t know if he made that decision on the fly.
Michael: He must have, because in the perfect world, while it is great that Harry is seeing Malfoy being redeemed and not a killer – which as we talked about at the end of Half-Blood Prince is very important for Harry – I always got that the intention, the original plan was that Snape was supposed to completely disarm Dumbledore and Snape would become the master of the Elder Wand so that Harry could get it from him. Or that Snape could somehow pass it on. But that is not what happened. Because I don’t think that Dumbledore could have fully anticipated that Malfoy was going to disarm him, because it would also seem that Dumbledore wasn’t necessarily anticipating being quite as weak as he was from the potion.
Ann: Right.
Michael: Because he asked for Harry to go get Snape, probably also under the… seemingly under the… we get the assumption that he wants him to go get a potion so that he can make him feel better, and who knows? Maybe that was part of the plan, to at least boost him up before he died.
Ann: Yeah.
Michael: So yeah, I don’t know if it was meant by Dumbledore for Harry to see that, but I don’t think Dumbledore… as we see from Dumbledore’s discussion with Harry in the portrait and the “Did it happen, did it not happen” thing in Harry’s head in King’s Cross, I don’t think Dumbledore regretted Harry seeing it, because it was important. So there is still the question, I guess, if Dumbledore got some detached benefit from letting Harry see this and not considering Harry’s well-being for witnessing this.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: But Harry has seen a lot. I mean, he has seen, oh God. He has seen so much. This is pennies compared to what he has seen before.
[Ann laughs]
Alison: Well, it is the third death he has seen in three years. This is becoming routine.
[Ann and Michael laugh]
Michael: It is old hat. [laughs] And Dumbledore is old and weak and everything, so it is the most expected out of all of them, right? The rest were a shock. This shouldn’t be a shock. Get over it, Harry.
[Alison laughs]
Caleb: All right. Well those, like I said, are just a couple of the comments from this last week’s episode. There is more discussion… again, like I said, a lot of great discussion on Dumbledore and Doge and Dumbledore and Harry’s relationship, a continued discussion on Voldemort and how he perceives or does not fully… underestimates, that is the English word that I’m looking for…
Michael: Yeah.
[Alison and Ann laugh]
Caleb: … underestimates Narcissa, and much more. So head over to the main site to read up on those.
Michael: And before we go on to the chapter discussion, we’re going to go back to the issue of the articles in our Podcast Question of the Week, which was,
“Harry reacts to each article in very different ways; one presents interesting details and mysteries about Dumbledore that Harry wishes he had known, the other suggests there were darker details that could paint him in a more sinister light. As readers, this is the first time we really get this information about Dumbledore as well, so who are we supposed to believe? What information can we trust and what should we believe? Or is there someone out there who could offer us a better more trustworthy obituary that would leave Harry feeling less upset and would leave a more accurate well-rounded perspective of the true Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore?”
And we had some excellent responses; there were so many that I wanted to include that I could not fit into the episode. You guys were excellent listeners this week in your responses. Our first one comes from HarleyMeenen, who overall looked at the difference between the two articles, and said,
“The obituaries are intended to provide a contrasting view of Dumbledore and to therefore pull both Harry and the reader into wondering what they are missing about the man. I think Harry’s interpretation of them honestly indicates a bit of naivety on his part – his willingness to accept everything good about Dumbledore and feel sympathy for him while rejecting all suggestions that his darker side did exist. As readers, we get pulled into Harry’s opinions, and setting Skeeter as the author of the more sinister obituary creates the immediate bias that it is completely wrong, which is why it is so surprising when it is in fact quite accurate.”
I should also point out, listeners, as a side note: HarleyMeenen was one of the few commenters who actually conceded to Rita Skeeter. I was very impressed, Harley, that you were willing to do that.
“As to who could have written a more accurate obituary? I don’t think anyone knew the man well enough to do it. And unfortunately, given the nature of obituaries anyway (honoring the dead often leads those who knew them to gloss over unpleasant details, and closure is never really going to come after the death), I don’t think anything written about the [H]eadmaster would have made Harry feel better. He had to come to terms with what happened on his own.”
And I think this raises an excellent question for me and was something a lot of the listeners were discussing in the Podcast Question of the Week. For all of you, what was your initial reaction to the articles? Did you follow Harry completely in his sympathy for Dumbledore? Did you think there might have been something to what Rita was writing? What were your initial responses?
Ann: I remember thinking that neither of them could be completely accurate but that I was more inclined to believe Doge over Skeeter. I believed that there might have been a seed of truth in what she was saying, but it was probably way over-exaggerated and that it couldn’t all have happened exactly the way she said it.
Alison: Yes.
Michael: Mhm.
Caleb: I hate myself now for being way too naive about it the first time I read it.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: I definitely just sucked it in.
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: I assumed Doge and Dumbledore were legitimately as good of friends as Doge claimed, and I just didn’t want to believe anything that Rita said. I think that I definitely… well, I don’t think there was an element of believing, but it was definitely intriguing to start to get pieces of his family, about Ariana, and what happened with Aberforth. I was just like, “Man, this is just more of her stuff; more of her horrible writing,” so…
Ann and Michael: Mhm.
Caleb: God, I hate myself for it now because it’s so clever.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: It’s so well done by Jo. Like Harley says in this comment, that it’s so great that it is in fact… a lot of it is in some ways very true.
Michael: Yeah, because when I first read it, like you, Caleb, I completely was siding with Harry. And I think what’s great that HarleyMeenen points out in their comment is that probably one of the most clever things Rowling did with this is that she made Rita Skeeter the writer of that book and that article.
Alison and Ann: Yeah.
Michael: And really, what’s so impressive about that… now, we talk so often about how far ahead Rowling plans and what’s in the cards so far ahead of time and what is not. What’s interesting is that Rita was not initially even a character in the first draft of Goblet of Fire. Her place was taken by a relation of the Weasleys, who was the daughter of that odd accountant cousin.
Alison: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Ann: Uh-huh.
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael: That was Rita Skeeter’s character, and then Rita was actually put in on a revision because she had more access to information than the Weasley cousin did. So really, this could not have been… this must have been one of those… we always wonder what were the inspirations because I think people have even asked Rowling this: What were the things that she got inspired by as she was writing rather than things she planned ahead?
Ann: Mhm.
Michael: And I almost think that this Skeeter one… it’s amazing because it is so brilliant, but it could not have been planned earlier than Book 4 at the earliest.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: So there’s something interesting to note about the planning stages. But I do think that is probably the most fascinating thing about how this ends up working because even Rita Skeeter, painted in all of her horribleness in Goblet of Fire and even in Order of the Phoenix; there is… she even gets that morally grey treatment that we’re seeing a lot of characters getting in the last, I’d say, three books.
Caleb: Mhm.
Michael: Even she is subject to maybe us giving her a reassessment and saying, “Well, she’s not wrong, to be fair, in everything she says… necessarily.”
Caleb: Right.
Michael: What do you guys think, too, about Harley’s point that our belief that nobody could have written a good obituary for Dumbledore that would have been accurate enough?
Alison: I don’t know. I think the closest person who could’ve would have been Aberforth, but because of the state of their relationship, he would have never done it, so… yeah.
Ann: Right.
Michael: Mhm.
Caleb: You say that just because he, obviously, knows the most just from proximity?
Alison: Well, that, and I think… I mean, because he grew up with Albus, I think he understands him as a person more than anyone else could.
Ann: Mhm.
Alison: And he can see… I mean, you grow up with people; you grow up with your siblings and you can see through the things that they end up presenting to the world at some points as they get older, and you see a little bit more of how they get to be the people they become.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: And so I think that’s the closest anyone would get to understanding him.
Michael: Well, there were some other thoughts on who actually might have been close enough, or might have been able to write an obituary for Dumbledore. One of them was from pamonapatrol, who said,
“I think an interesting person to shed some light on Albus Dumbledore would be Horace Slughorn. I’ve always been intrigued to know more about how they knew each other and their relationship towards each other. Slughorn wouldn’t be afraid to tell the truth, but he definitely admired Dumbledore and would give an accurate picture of Dumbledore without glorifying him or blurring any of his mistakes too much.”
Michael: Thoughts?
Alison: Is that true, though?
Ann: Yeah, I think he wouldn’t glorify Dumbledore, but he might glorify himself…
Caleb: Yeah, right.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Or I think he would be using it to suck up…
Ann: Yeah.
Alison: … to the Order and to the Ministry and to say, “Oh, yes, yes, look. I was a Dumbledore supporter. Of course, I’m a Dumbledore supporter!”
Michael: Okay, maybe we have to clear away the social and political climate to see if Slughorn would be good at it.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Because, as you guys are saying, he would probably be influenced by that; knowing that his article is going to be released in a publication that everybody reads. We know that Slughorn is very concerned about whose side he projects himself to be on.
Caleb: Mhm.
Michael: But I thought it was… I think I thought that this was an interesting idea because of the information that Dumbledore and consequently Harry have about Slughorn; that being the memory.
Alison and Ann: Yeah.
Michael: And would that also maybe affect what Slughorn would say? But I think you guys are right that there would definitely be a lot of grandstanding on Slughorn’s part in the article.
Alison: Yes.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: And there would probably be a lot more… the stories would suddenly become a lot more about Slughorn than they would about Dumbledore. Now, Hufflepuffskein put forth a suggestion that, actually, quite a few people wanted to discuss on the post. And that was,
“What if Snape wrote an obituary for Dumbledore? Talk about someone who knows some of the deceased’s secrets. Obviously, it would blow his cover, etc.”
So Hufflepuffskein is being very good here and putting that aside. So we already know it’s going to blow his cover and everything.
“But just wondering if Snape wrote an obituary in his head perhaps, what would it say? Interested in everybody’s thoughts…”
Now, I should note that Hufflepuffskein’s comment was much, much longer, and I must have brought up at least… I think I might have at least seen 20 question marks in that comment.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: But I didn’t want to include them all because I didn’t want to steer the conversation too much. Thoughts, you guys? I think this was an excellent suggestion.
Alison: I think he did. I think he did in “The Prince’s Tale.”
Michael: Ah!
Alison: I think in the end of that, he kind of did and he did it in the best way possible by actually showing Harry what happened between them.
Ann: Yeah.
Caleb: Yeah. I mean, I think he definitely fills in the gaps for Harry, but how would Snape be able to write about Dumbledore’s whole life, though?
Michael: Yeah, because Snape… are we privvy to whether Snape… Snape doesn’t know Dumbledore’s whole family history, does he?
Caleb: Yeah, that’s what I felt earlier talking about how those are distinct things. I don’t know how much Snape would be able to talk about Dumbledore’s history. I think that he would paint him in a very objective light, right? He would be in between Rita and Elphias, but I don’t know if he would be able to give the history as well.
Michael: Well, like Alison said, I think that’s definitely the tone that comes from “The Prince’s Tale,” the memories that are directly centered around Dumbledore. He’s not necessarily good or bad in those memories. He just is. Which is perhaps the best, I suppose, you could expect. And what interested me about that too – and we’ve touched on this discussion before – is… maybe you guys can weight in again on your thoughts, Ann especially since you haven’t gotten to. The idea of did Snape view Dumbledore in any way as a protector/father figure, or was he strictly doing a job for him? Paying a debt.
Ann: I feel like he probably had some measure of gratitude to Dumbledore for taking him in when no one else would and giving him a job, making sure he had a roof over his head and some money in his pockets at a time when we probably wasn’t very popular with a lot of people. But other than that, I think his gratitude didn’t really expand that far, as far as a father figure or a protector.
Michael: Yeah, I suppose when we think about – and again, that was a great reference, Alison, “The Prince’s Tale” – that there is a moment in “The Prince’s Tale” when Dumbledore chides Snape for not being open his history and his emotions, which is pot calling the kettle black, I guess, really.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: But Snape doesn’t take that information to heart, and he really never learns from Dumbledore’s attempts to get Snape to open up and perhaps confront his issues. Snape really never does face those issues. He just continues on the mission that was set from the beginning of joining Dumbledore. So in that way, he doesn’t really learn from Dumbledore as a son would a father, perhaps. But it was an interesting idea, the idea of Snape. So we’ll definitely have to re-examine that, I think, more when we get to “The Prince’s Tale.” That’s going to be…
Caleb: Maybe one of our listeners could write that obituary from Snape’s point of view.
[Ann, Alison, and Michael laughs]
Michael: And our last comment comes from HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis, who says,
“I think one person alone could not write an obituary that includes all phases of Albus’s life. If different persons work together to gather their knowledge and try to be honest, but fair, that would make a very good article. Aberforth knew him as a child, Doge can contribute the years at Hogwarts, and as Grindelwald is still alive and has ample time on his hands sitting in Nurmengard…”
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: Though his days are numbered.
Michael: His days are numbered!
“… it would be appropriate to ask for his version of the events. McGonagall has worked with Albus for decades and can tell the amusing anecdotes that make an obituary less draining and more entertaining. Ask Hagrid! Or good, ancient Madam Marchbanks. But there is no single person who knows all his secrets, and that makes the published articles and the gossiping they start all the more interesting.”
As a sidenote – and Caleb, you will appreciate this – by far, McGonagall was the landslide winner for suggestions for who should’ve written the obituary. Most people argued that she wouldn’t have because she would not have been interested in giving a piece like that to the Prophet.
Caleb: Absoutely. I agree. I mean, I was going to wait to bring that up, but I think if she was going to write it… obviously, the two were very close. But I actually disagree with this last comment. I don’t think she would… for some reason, I just don’t see her writing those amusing anecdotes. Well, I guess if they’re light-hearted, not like the ones that are behind closed doors or whatever. But back to my point, I think she would be the best because she would be the most professional about it. She would be really objective. She would obviously praise him for being very great because she thinks so, but I still think she would write in a really standard, acceptable way.
Michael: Yeah, obviously, Hogwarts needs a school newspaper.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Since McGonagall would never publish in the Prophet. But I do think this was really… Alison, you had mentioned earlier Aberforth. He was probably the runner-up for suggestions for who to write. Most people, of course, as you said, Alison, mentioned that Aberforth would never ever do it.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Considering his current feelings. Aberforth gets his chance to write his obituary a little later. He speaks his to Harry, actually, rather straightforward, and it’s not very glowing at all. Now, Hagrid, I thought, was an interesting suggestion. To be fair, and Hagrid has said straight up, he can’t write.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: No, Hagrid writes.
Ann: No, he just can’t spell.
Michael: Yeah, he just can’t spell very well, so the Prophet probably wouldn’t accept his article.
[Alison, Ann, and Michael laugh]
Caleb: No, probanly not.
Michael: But Hagrid could probably make a very good, if slightly meandering, speech, I would say. But I do think Hagrid was a good choice in that. I almost wonder, though, if Hagrid’s wouldn’t be that much different from Doge’s.
Ann: Oh yeah, we would definitely have the hero worship thing. Because he really has that gratitude for Dumbledore too to give him a place to live and a roof over his head when no one else would.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, that’s part of the issue, and I think… Grindelwald obviously, again, is not going to write for pretty straightforward obvious reasons, but I did think that was an interesting suggestion. And again, all of these people would not get together and write the article, but as HowAmIGoingToTranslateThis ended their comment, the fact that they don’t and the people who do write the articles are those particular people, that does end up leading to a great subplot mystery, which of course the movie completely pooh-poohed on, but we’ll get to that later.
[Alison and Ann laugh]
Michael: But it is one of those… I don’t think this was the mystery anybody was expecting in Deathly Hallows. This was the surprise subplot. And then we will continue to examine it further because Rita Skeeter is certainly not done releasing her articles, and Elphias Doge certainly has a lot to say as well. But I wanted to definitely shout out to all of you who had a lot to say this week. I wanted to give a shoutout to Awesome Hufflepuff, Casey L., DisKid, Dumbledore’s through & through, Huffleclaw, Jaye Dozier, PhoenixNight5, SlytherinKnight, Voldemort’s Lost Nose, Whatwhatinthebutterbeer – Whatwhatinthebutterbeer left a very tongue-in-cheek comment, which a lot of people appreciated, including myself – WhoDoYouKnowWho’sLostAButtock?, and Yo Rufus On Fire. And I wanted to give a Shout-out Maxima to these lovely folks, who… actually, your comments almost ended up in the show. I just didn’t have enough space for them, and those were daveybjones999, Dumbledoresgirlthruandthru, Minerva’s tartan biscuit tin, SnugglesWithNifflers, Socks & Slugs, and You’reGettingOnMynerva. And a special shoutout to Socks & Slugs for sharing some very deep, personal stories on our site. We really appreciate all of you who share what you do with us on the site. Make sure, listeners, if you have not read the comments yet to go to the Alohomora! main site, alohomora.mugglenet.com, to check those out and participate in the discussion.
Alison: And so with that, we will move on from Dumbledore to another family that starts with a D: Dursleys.
[Michael laughs]
[Deathly Hallows Chapter 3 intro begins]
Vernon: Well, this is goodbye, then, boy.
Dudley: I don’t think you’re a waste of space.
Petunia: Well. Goodbye.
Vernon: Chapter 3.
[Sounds of a car starting and car doors closing]
Vernon: “The Dursleys Departing.”
Harry: Goodbye.
[Deathly Hallows Chapter 3 intro ends]
Alison: So as he comes down from reading Rita Skeeter’s nasty article questioning everything Dumbledore did, Harry is called down the stairs by Uncle Vernon. For the very last time, we see the Dursleys. Harry is quite glad to say goodbye, but the entire scene is filled with awkwardness. Dudley is the only one to offer a proper goodbye, but it is Petunia’s unspoken regret that closes the chapter, leaving Harry and the reader without real closure on the relatives he disliked for so long. So this is the first time I realized this, but this is the very last time we see the Dursleys in these books, is right now.
Michael: Whoa.
Alison: It’s the first time we’re saying goodbye to a character.
Michael: Perhaps the first time that we’re saying goodbye to some of the Dursleys.
Alison: Well…
Michael: One of them. [laughs]
Alison: Yes. That’s true.
Michael: But definitely saying goodbye to some pretty major people who[m] we aren’t going to see again. Who still have last-minute surprises for us despite that, right?
Alison: Yes. So I guess my question is, examining them here for the last time as a cohesive unit, do we still think they’re the caricatures from the first books, or have they become a little bit more well rounded?
Michael: Vernon is.
Ann: I feel like… yeah, Vernon definitely is. Petunia and Dudley have really had chances to become… we can learn more about them, but [with] Vernon, the only thing we know about him is extra-canonical from Pottermore. We never really get to see that side of him in the books.
Michael: Yeah. I think, actually, the three Dursleys represent three different degrees in how they’ve evolved. Vernon has not at all, Aunt Petunia has, but she’s done so very quietly and unspokenly, and we will find out her… her dirty laundry will be pretty much fully exposed later on near the end of the book, and then Dudley, who does a complete 180, so they’re on a tier.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: But Vernon is the one who, in my eyes… he hasn’t changed at all, represented by the fact that he gets the first spoken line of the chapter, which is “Oi! You!”
[Alison, Ann, and Michael laugh]
Michael: “Come on down here.” And Harry knows exactly who’s talking to him because of that. Vernon… yeah. He hasn’t changed at all.
Caleb: Same stuff, different year.
[Ann and Michael laugh]
Alison: Okay. So there’s a very interesting line on page 33 of the UK paperback edition that says, “Uncle Vernon’s and Harry’s eyes met. Harry was sure in that instant they were both wondering the same thing.” So he’s talking about [how] Harry tells them that Voldemort could try [to] use the Dursleys against Harry. So what do we think Harry would have really done, had the Dursleys been in danger?
Michael: Saved them.
Caleb: He would have tried to save them.
Ann: Yeah, he would have saved them.
Michael: [laughs] Begrudgingly.
[Ann laughs]
Caleb: Ron would have told him [that] there were bigger things to do. Hermione would have told him [that] he needs to save them. That’s my opinion. Not that… let me be clear on that: I don’t think Ron would have said, “Eh, they can die.” He would have just said, “That’s not where your time needs to be spent.”
Michael: [laughs] “Kill Voldemort first, and if they’re still alive, maybe go get them.”
[Alison, Ann, and Michael laugh]
Caleb: Exactly. You actually just spoke what Ron’s dialog would have been.
[Alison, Ann, and Michael laugh]
Michael: Hermione… because he has to say something that Hermione would wholeheartedly disapprove of.
Caleb: “Ron, how could you?”
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: No, I think the Gryffindor in Harry would win out in this situation, especially considering Dudley’s turnaround. I’m actually, in a way, surprised that we didn’t really hear much even on Pottermore about directly what happened. I feel like that would have been a really great story for Pottermore, is exactly what happened to the Dursleys after they left. Ten minutes later, what happened? Because it had to be good.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Ann: At one point, Vernon says that he and Dudley can’t go to work, they can’t go to school, [and] they can’t go out and do stuff. Why not? If the Death Eaters cared where they worked or went to school, they would have figured it out by now, right? Because the blood magic doesn’t extend past the Dursley household. Or am I getting it completely wrong?
Caleb: Yeah, that’s an interesting little loophole in the book there.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Well… I mean, as we see later in the book, Voldemort sends out his Death Eaters to tail people.
Caleb: And also, the focus is Harry, right? So let’s say he sends someone to kill Vernon at his office. That would 1) put them out in the public eye at risk of getting caught, and 2) that’s not the big prize at the end for Voldemort.
Alison: No. I wonder, would Voldemort have even gone for them at all? I mean, would he have even cared? Does he even know?
Michael: Why that’s a fascinating question is because the movie’s answer was yes, but in a deleted scene because… now, it doesn’t show the Death Eaters going to the Dursleys’ house, but it does show them going to the Grangers’ house. There’s a scene where a Death Eater breaks into Mr. and Mrs. Grangers’ house.
Alison: Where is this scene?
Michael: It’s on the Blu-ray, and he just goes in, and there’s nothing there because they’ve already moved to Australia. And so the movies went with the idea that, yes, Voldemort would go after everybody close enough, and I think that is true. If Voldemort is looking, he’s not showing it, because he’s so well spoken – like Hitler – but he’s desperate right now to get at Harry. He is doing anything he can. And the things that he sets up, the ways he tries to get at Harry, he really does set so many tails on him that, yeah, I think he absolutely would have gone after the Dursleys. And I think, as we’ve seen, Voldemort doesn’t care about killing people who are in his way or who have served their use, so if he can’t get information out of the Dursleys, which he could because he could break through a Memory Charm if they had one placed on them by “the good guys,” and they probably wouldn’t have even thought of that. He could probably just dig through their memories, get what he needed, and then killed them, to be frank. So yeah, I think he would have gone after them. Voldemort doesn’t know that they’re taking such bad care of Harry. He probably would have congratulated them first on doing such a great job of raising Harry.
[Alison, Ann, and Michael laugh]
Alison: You’ve made him so miserable. Let’s be friends.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: Okay. Another thing that’s funny throughout the chapter is just how exasperated with, especially Vernon, in this chapter Harry is. I mean, it’s funny because this seems like such a… it’s so different from even Book 6, where he’s annoyed with them, but he doesn’t outwardly show it as much, whereas, in this book, he’s just like, “Really? Are we having this conversation again?” I don’t know. It was very funny to me that it would be at this point that Harry is finally just like, “You don’t care, I don’t care, whatever.”
Michael: I think the reason he does that is because he has license to, because at the end of Order of the Phoenix, they’ve all said, “If they basically flick you on the nose, call us, and we’ll come reign our wizardly wrath upon them.” [laughs] Because I really noticed that too, Alison, in this re-read. One of my favorite parts that is just one of those subtle things is when Vernon demands that Harry sits down, and all Harry has to do is raise his eyebrows, and Vernon goes, [as Vernon] “Please.”
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: And that’s quite… Harry really does have a pretty unprecedented amount of control in the Dursley household that he hasn’t had before. And I think it’s because he’s… not only does he have that backup system, but he [also] completely has the upper hand in terms of the situation. I think it started around the time that the dementor attacked Dudley. I think that was the first point in the turnaround of who was in control in this relationship.
Alison: And then wrapping it up on Vernon, thank goodness…
[Alison and Ann laugh]
Alison: … we really see – in a way we haven’t seen for a long time – just how much of a stark divide there is between wizard and Muggle understanding in Vernon’s interactions with Dedalus. I mean, it’s that ring theory thing, where at the beginning of Book 1, we get Harry not seeing these things going together at all, and now that’s… I think we’ve all gotten so used to being in this wizarding world and spanning both worlds, that it’s so interesting to see just how far apart they can be.
Michael: Yeah. What I… the line that exemplifies that for me isn’t so much necessarily in the magic, but it’s almost facinatingly in the social behavior, in that Dedalus and Hestia are very, very, very polite, and I think, generally in the wizarding world, we have seen that politeness. And Harry is a special case, but it does harken back to the way wizards treated the Dursleys just by encountering them in Book 1 when Harry didn’t know better. I love that Dedalus is one of the ones who comes back. Because, for those who don’t remember, he bowed to Harry in a shop long before Harry knew he was a wizard. He’s been a fun little background character, and it’s fun to see him come full circle in his importance. But yeah, I love the moment when Dedalus thinks that he’s being nice by complimenting Vernon on his driving skills.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: And Vernon isn’t taking it that way at all, and then Hestia is very shocked that – I don’t think she’s even necessarily shocked that the Dursleys don’t know anything – they’re just so disrespectful on a human level to Harry.
Caleb: So one thing I noticed on this read is, while I think we get Hestia’s reaction and everything very accurately, it’s all surface level with her. I actually wondered if Dedalus understood what was happening the whole time, because at the very end of the interaction, when I think things were going better, and I think it’s even happening when Dudley and Harry are having their exchange, Dedalus… the description is [that] he’s looking on… I can’t remember what the exact language is. It’s not “satisfaction.”
Michael: It’s “bemusement.”
Caleb: Right. So that made me think, “Huh? Did he really understand this family dynamic the whole time and thought this might be the end?” One of them at least thanking Harry and having this better moment and that’s why he didn’t step in? And he also just realized that Hestia was going to, and he just didn’t feel the need to? I wondered if he really did understand what was going on more than he was letting on.
Alison: Well, he’s seen Harry and the Dursleys interact before. I mean, he was in the shop where Petunia and Dudley were in. The description right after that is that Petunia hauls them out of the shop and interrogates Harry if he knows the guy, and it wouldn’t surprise me if Dedalus was around for that, and so he’s seen how the Dursleys treat Harry. So he’s not quite as surprised.
Caleb: Yeah, he’s definitely seen a taste of it.
Michael: I always thought that he was just bemused because he’s kind of like, “Time to go. We’re on a schedule,” but I think there’s… there could be credence to that. Like you said, Alison, it’s not like he’s completely alien to the Dursley’s treatment of Harry.
Alison and Caleb: Yeah.
Alison: And on Dedalus and Vernon, someone out of us in here… I’m not quite sure who it was, but…
Michael: I think that’s Ann. Yeah.
Alison: It was you?
Ann: It was me, yeah.
Alison: Do you want to talk about this?
Ann: Yeah, I was… Dedalus was talking about, “How do you drive? I would be so bamboozled by all the buttons” and I was thinking about that. How in the world did Arthur learn how to drive because he’s a pure-blood too. Are there driving lessons offered at Hogwarts? Did he find a driving school? Did he make a Muggle-born teach him? And same with the guys at the Ministry in Book 3 who drive them to Hogwarts from the Burrow – or excuse me, to Platform 9 and 3/4. How do they learn how to drive, because obviously it’s not a thing that comes up that often.
Caleb: Yeah, I bet the Ministry has a program, right, at least for their employees, so maybe they’re all there…
Michael: These are all the people…
Caleb: … voluntarily enlisted in it.
Ann: Maybe.
Michael: These are all the people that specialized in Muggle Studies at Hogwarts.
Alison: Yeah. [laughs]
Caleb: Yeah. Maybe that’s one of the…
Alison: Exams.
Caleb: … practical finals for Muggle Studies. You had to successfully pass Driver’s Ed.
Michael: Drive a car.
Ann: Oh my God.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Well, you know, that makes sense because we – I think we’ve really discovered – because we’ve been questioning that since Book 1 that kind of like, “Where’s the rest of the learning after Hogwarts.” And I think Pottermore has been slowly, quietly answering that because we did get a piece where Rowling talked about how there’s actually an alchemy class that’s offered for new level students, but it’s rarely taught because not a lot of students want to take it, so it’s not taught every year. It kind of ends up… seventh year kind of morphs into somewhere around college where there’s optional classes that are provided, and I think there’s a suggestion too that you go on to that training kind of as a trade, or as you go into the Ministry. And I think that would make sense that as people get taught probably by the Ministry for that kind of stuff. As we find out in the epilogue of Deathly Hallows, Ron just goes to a Muggle driving school…
Alison: Yeah, that’s true. He just… takes the test.
Michael: And he fails.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: So I mean, I wouldn’t put it past Arthur to… I feel like… I do think it is funny, though, that they allow wizards to do that because I feel like that would be such a breach, because could you imagine Arthur in a Driver’s Ed class? That would be… there would be so many memory charms that would be needed. By the way, shout out to Dedalus Diggle’s awesome watch that talks.
Alison: Yes, literal shout-out.
Michael: Talk, yes, talk about things that divide the wizard and Muggle world completely, a watch that screams, “Hurry up!” I love that.
Alison: All right. Well, moving onto another member of the Dursley family, let’s talk about Dudley for a little bit. It really does seem, though, that Dudley’s almost become fond of Harry, or he’s at least concerned for Harry’s safety and well-being. We see… we talked about this before with the cup of tea that Harry steps on, and now he asks, “Well, what’s going to happen to him?” Which seems a very interesting turn around, very quickly again. And then, of course, we get the famous line, “I don’t think you’re a waste of space,” which honestly it took me by surprise the first time I read it. I think I wasn’t expecting… there is no speaker tag attached to it.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: And I was not expecting that to be Dudley at all, whatsoever. Especially because the last time we really heard anything from Dudley was him taunting Harry in Book 5.
Michael: Yeah, because he doesn’t talk in Book 6, does he?
Alison: No.
Michael: Yeah, when I first read it I was actually reading it aloud because I was with this group of friends, actually, here in my house in our living room, post-midnight, reading this aloud to them. And I think all of our… we were just continually being shocked by everything that was coming up in these chapters. Definitely the big key point was probably the Hedwig stuff. That was when we really lost it. But this made our jaws drop. The waste of space, and Dudley’s behavior. And what I love about it is that really there is not much expanded on about why he has had this turn-around.
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: Mhm.
Michael: He is just like, “Yeah, you are all right. Anyway, bye.”
Alison: Which I… is this?
Caleb: [as Dudley] “This morning, when I was having my tea, I was thinking about a couple of things, and this is the conclusion which I have reached.”
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: I honestly think this is… is this a deleted scene, or did this actually make it into the movie? I can’t remember now.
Michael: This was a deleted scene. Deleted scene.
Alison: Okay. A deleted scene that should have been there, because they did it so well.
Michael: Yeah, it is definitely almost word for word.
Alison: Yeah, Harry Melling and Daniel Radcliffe. Both of their reactions were on point for what is happening [laughs] in this moment in the book where Dudley is just kind of like, “Yeah, I don’t think you’re a waste of space.” And Dan Radcliffe’s face is just like, “I’m sorry, did you just say that?”
[Ann and Michael laugh]
Alison: Did this just happen?
Michael: Yeah, they do… I think the reason it couldn’t be in the movie… notwithstanding the way that they paced the opening, which works really well in its own right, but it is actually played off almost a little too comedically, because it really almost is word for word. Because rather than have Harry watching the gears work in his head, Dudley is stepping over the little garden wall and watching Vernon the whole time like, [as Dudley] “I’m going to do it, I’m going to talk to him.” [back to normal voice] And it does take a full minute for him to go from the driveway to Harry. [laughs] So it is quite drawn out in its own way. They did do it almost… very good justice to that deleted scene.
Alison: They did. I like that one a lot. Anyway, so Dudley, though, we have gotten a little bit of extra-canonical information about him, not a lot. And I don’t know if anyone knows where a lot of these sources come from, because I couldn’t find a couple of them. But we know that Dudley had two children, and that Jo considered having one of his kids be magical, and showing him on Platform 9 3/4 in the epilogue. We know that he and Harry were on, quote, “Christmas card terms” and would occasionally get together. Some sources said that the kids apparently hated them, but they’d play together, and a lot of them said that Harry and Dudley would just sit there and watch the kids.
Michael: Yeah, Rowling has contradicted herself just a tiny little bit in some of her statements. Because on some of them, like you said, Alison, she has said that Harry and Dudley actually somewhat look forward to their visits and the kids don’t.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: And vice versa. I’m not really sure what to take, because like you said, she hasn’t really touched on this one on Pottermore too much just yet. It’s mostly then, I think, in her live discussions and her online chats where she’s revealed that information.
Alison and Caleb: Yeah.
Caleb: It seems like what we can take away is they have some sort of relationship but they’re not [on] best friend terms.
Alison: [laughs] No.
Michael: That would not happen.
Caleb: Right, right. Which is…
Ann: They’re Facebook friends.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: The point is… Facebook friends. If they had the logical relationship that would happen after this interaction, as opposed to no relationship that may have come about had they not had this moment…
Alison and Michael: Yeah.
Michael: I thought it was interesting that she did consider having one of the kids be magical…
Alison: Uh-huh.
Michael: … because I cannot… there is so much fan fiction.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: There is some really good fan fiction about these ones.
Michael: There is some really excellent fan fiction about that. I’m pretty sure we read at least one on AudioFictions; there is a lot, a lot, a lot of fan fiction about that, and it makes sense. But I see why… she did explain that, I believe, on a… she answered that, I think, in her Deathly Hallows chat after the book was released, which was, “Why didn’t Dudley have magical children?” She said because Uncle Vernon’s DNA wasn’t compatible with magic.
Alison: Yeah.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: So he full-on stomped it out of the line, so there will be no more magical children on the Dursley side of things.
Alison: Okay, so speaking of how much fan fiction there is around this…
[Michael laughs]
Alison: A lot of them I’ve seen… it draws Dudley and Harry a little bit closer together. Do we think that would have happened?
Caleb: Yeah, I think so. The two of them.
Ann: I think it would have drawn them closer together because it finally would have been Harry being able to show Dudley the way things worked as opposed to Dudley automatically being the lead in every situation; automatically being the favored one in every situation. And I think that would humble him and it would help him grow closer to Harry and maybe not be as scared of the magical world.
Michael: Yeah, I agree with that. I think the biggest part of that that would help is that Dudley would not be under his parents’ eyes anymore.
Alison and Ann: Yeah.
Michael: And I think that’s a reasonable reason why so much fan fiction came out of this; because this chapter suggests not only that Dudley is viewing Harry in a new light, but he’s finally coming into his own as his own person.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: He’s not just mimicking his parents’ beliefs, which is also another big but not really… it’s not a glaring theme of Harry Potter, but it’s a pretty important one. And for you theater buffs out there, if you’ve ever seen Into the Woods…
Alison: Yes.
Michael: Not the movie. [laughs]
Alison: The actual show.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: The actual play. That is what that play is about.
Ann: Mhm.
Michael: It is about the idea of what we give to our children and being careful of that. I think it’s interesting that that manages to stretch in these books to the non-magical world because I think the biggest place we see that is with Malfoy.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: So here we’re seeing it with Dudley, too, and I think that is a natural route for people thinking, “Oh, well, maybe there’s a chance for this relationship to be renewed, repaired somehow, for Harry and Dudley.”
Alison: And then our final point, obviously, is going to be the final Dursley we haven’t talked about yet, which is Petunia. Yes.
Michael: The big one.
Alison: Huge one.
Michael: Oh my God.
Alison: So of course, the obvious question to come out of this is: Okay, what was she going to say?
[Caleb laughs]
Alison: We do have a little bit of indication of what she could have said. From Pottermore, JKR said Petunia had a lot of guilt – or some guilt – over her falling out with Lily, and the quote is, “I wanted to suggest, in the final book, that something decent (a long-forgotten but dimly burning love of her sister; the realization that she might never see Lily’s eyes again) almost struggled out of Aunt Petunia when she said goodbye to Harry for the last time, but that she is not able to admit to it, or show those long-buried feelings.” So I don’t know if you guys… I’m sure you guys have seen the deleted scene from the movie. This deleted scene. There were two that were really good from this.
Ann: Mhm.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: Did that scene from the movie do this moment better? Did it at least humanize Petunia a little bit more than the book does?
Michael: This is one that… because you know how I was very happy to state that the one thing I feel the movies ever did better than the books was Slughorn and that particular scene.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: I think the movie’s deleted scene is an interesting alternative take.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: I don’t think it’s better, but I think it’s a great alternative. I think it’s a better alternative for the movie, and it’s upsetting that it’s not in the movie. Again, I see why for pacing issues. But I think it works better for the movie because we don’t really see that much of Petunia anyway.
Alison: Mmm.
Michael: And I think that reminder hits harder in the movies than it does…
Ann: Yeah, I agree.
Michael: Because for those of you, listeners, if you haven’t… oh, go ahead, Ann. Go ahead.
Ann: Oh, I was just going to say that since we always see everything from Harry’s point of view, I know at least I always sometimes forgot that Petunia did lose her sister.
Michael: Yup.
Ann: We always just think of her in terms of Harry’s mother. We don’t think about how her loss would have affected James’s parents or her parents or even Petunia. So it’s really a gut punch.
Michael: Yeah. I think the reason, too, that it doesn’t… the reason it was taken out in the movie… for all the praise we all give to Snape’s memories in the movie – and they are very well done – Petunia gets completely shafted in the movie”ôs depiction of those memories because her story in the memories is fantastic in the book.
Alison: Yes.
Caleb: Mhm.
Michael: That evolution is beautiful and very tragic. She ends up being a weirdly tragic character.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Ann: Yeah.
Michael: I think we even… I think we even just start to feel that here.
Alison: Yeah. I think part of the tragedy of Petunia is she becomes almost too connectable to the reader, where she wanted and wanted and wanted to go to Hogwarts, and what kid who grew up with them wasn’t sitting there, waiting…
Michael: Mmm. Yeah.
Alison: … and then there was just nothing. And you see how she just becomes so bitter from it that it makes her into who she is and it’s almost too close to reality [laughs] I think for a lot of kids…
[Ann laughs]
Alison: … and I think that’s part of the tragedy of her.
Michael: Yeah, it’s just… again, the way this series continually evolves, and Rowling’s writing style… we don’t even have these concerns in the first three books or so, where it’s just like, “Oh, well, you get a letter, you go to Hogwarts, and you’re magical. Whee! And the world is perfect and there are no problems.” And then, really… and this is why I always feel that Rowling, in her writing and in the Harry Potter series, as compared to a lot of other young adult and juvenile fiction that is out there, goes above and beyond because she considers everything that could, potentially, become a problem.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: She doesn’t paint characters… I see so many books – and as I’ve said before, I won’t give examples because I wouldn’t want to dissuade other authors from coming on the show – [laughs] but I’ve read so many books where authors just don’t consider that element and these characters just… there’re so many books now where somebody gets a letter, somebody gets a message, somebody is the chosen one, and there really are no consequences to that other than, “I have to go fight the bad guy and I’m going to win and I’m going to make friends along the way.” But Rowling’s is really one of those unusual series that considers everybody else who is affected by that moment. It’s not just about Harry here. It extends so far as to Petunia, which is great. And what’s interesting, Alison, about that bit you read from Pottermore, it’s another moment where she contradicted herself, because that is not what she said before. Because a lot of people ask her about what Petunia was going to say. And way back – again, I think it was the book chat right after Deathly Hallows – she said that she was going to try [to] wish Harry good luck.
Alison: I can see how that would fit in with what she’s put on Pottermore, though, where she’s… I mean, what are you going to say to this kid? How do you say goodbye and good luck, and I lost my sister, and we probably should have done this all better?
Caleb: Yeah, but I think that’s why this is so relatable, and I think you really can emote with her really well, or just emote with the situation in general, because I think we’ve all had those moments where whether it’s because we’ve had disagreements with people or just falling outs or unfulfilled relationships, whatever, and you just can’t get the words out, and either you have that word vomit where it would have been just “good luck” even though that’s not really representing what she’s feeling or the pain and the bitterness and the despair and the loss and everything that’s just so negative. Just, you literally cannot bring yourself to talk even though you want to so badly. I just found… it’s so gripping and so real.
Michael: That’s funny, because I find it that way now, but I didn’t when I first read it. I hated it when I first read it.
[Caleb and Michael laugh]
Caleb: Yeah. I mean, I can see that. Maybe because that first time you just want to learn as much as you can while you’re reading.
Michael: Rowling does the thing that I think a lot of people are not brave enough to do, and she does not kowtow to what the fandom wants. Which is excellent. That is, I think, the downfall of many a popular thing. Be it a TV show, be it a movie, be it books, they frequently give in to what the fans want, and Rowling does not in pretty much any respect. I think that’s important here, especially, I think, Petunia ends up being the one [who]’s the core for the end of the series. Her story is so going to tie in, and we’ll examine that further down the line too. It’s fascinating how her story runs parallel and runs opposite to Snape’s in terms of her relationship to Lily.
Caleb: And they grew up together.
Alison: And then just rounding out, the narrative doesn’t really give us a lot of what Harry is feeling. I especially noticed this this time, maybe because [in] the chapter before, we get a lot of what Harry is thinking and feeling, but we don’t in this chapter. But the tone is really uneasy and awkward throughout the whole thing. And I don’t know if anyone else felt this way, but for some reason this time reading it through, I didn’t really feel any closure at the end of this chapter. It just stops.
Ann: Yeah, I know when I was reading it, I just flipped to the next page. I was like, “Oh, what? Oh, what? What?”
[Michael laughs]
Ann: That’s it for now? Oh, okay. It’s just so abrupt.
Michael: I was thinking about this in terms of… listeners, if you haven’t seen it, it’s worth at least a glance, and I know it will be coming out on Blu-ray DVD soon: Disney’s new version of Cinderella, the 2015 version. This made me think about… because we talked a lot in the early days about the Dursleys and like you mentioned, Alison, earlier, as caricatures of the traditional fairy tale villains, Roald Dahl villain types, and this is almost the instance where, if the stepmother got a chance to properly apologize for her actions to Cinderella… and it depends on what version you read of the story. In Charles Perrault’s version, Cinderella forgives her stepsisters and her stepmother, and they come live with her. In the Grimms’ version, they get their eyes pecked out by birds. So it depends, I guess, on your view of what the proper punishment is, but the problem that I always found with the new Cinderella movie was that it actually does try to give the stepmother a background and tries to give her a reason for why she acts the way she does. Like Petunia, she explicitly says the reasons for why she acts the way she does. And at the end, Cinderella just smiles and says, “I forgive you,” and then she walks out very haught[il]y. Like, “Haha! I win!” [laughs] And it’s very unsatisfactory because they really try to make the stepmother interesting, but they fail. And the stepsisters just get totally brushed off to the side after apologizing. And I think that’s… there’s a mixture of that here, where these villains have been so much in that character type of a fairy tale/Roald Dahl-type villain, really, what could be given as closure? What would be the ideal alternative to this, right? What could she have possibly done? I mean, maybe that’s a good Podcast Question of the Week since we don’t have one. But I’d be interested to hear what you guys would think. Because in my initial read, I was so unsatisfied with this. I like it now, but what could she have done alternatively?
Ann: I would’ve liked to see more of a genesis of where, at least, Dudley’s feelings are coming from, because this is a 180 out of nowhere. It’s like you said, that the last time we really hear from him is when he’s making fun of him. So where did this respect come from? I would like to hear more of that.
Michael: Isn’t that interesting? It’s almost like there was a missed opportunity in Book 6 to expand on that moment and… because there isn’t really… that was mentioned earlier, and that’s a great point, Ann, though. So Dudley gets his soul sucked out by Dementors, ignores Harry for roughly two years and then is like, “I like you!”
[Alison, Ann, and Michael laugh]
Michael: That’s definitely odd for sure.
Caleb: Yeah, I mean, I think… I almost wonder, now that I’m thinking about it, if he spends that summer… that’s really where a lot of the grieving is for Dudley, and that leads to where he is in this moment, and he just doesn’t know how to articulate it to Harry or is ready to take that step yet. But now that they’re leaving, it’s finally a good moment for him. But yeah, I mean, I just don’t know if there’s a way that Rowling could’ve done it differently, at least in my mind. And I think it has to do, for me… with as much as it is about still showing [that] Vernon is a caricature, that Dudley has grown, and that Petunia is still fighting a lot of demons inside of her, it also says a lot about Harry, right? It’s a moment for him to realize, these were horrible people to him. They made his life miserable. Dudley has had his moment. It doesn’t make things perfect, and down the line, they’re not best friends. But Harry has a lot on his shoulders right now that the Dursleys just aren’t at the forefront of his mind. He’s about to have to go off and not even go to school. He’s about to go look for Horcruxes. So it’s almost just a moment where this has been a really hard thing for him for all of his life, but some things, you just have to let go even though it will never be perfectly okay.
Alison: Yeah. I don’t know what I would even want out of this moment. If it was to be done differently… I don’t even know what I expect…
Michael: Well, because… it’s so important that Petunia doesn’t say anything…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: … because that is going to lead… again, it’s so carefully done by Rowling because if Petunia had said anything, that would’ve completely ruined “The Prince’s Tale.” It’s too much of a lead, it’s too much of a hint, for her to say anything at that point. But it is fascinating to think… I think it’s worth mentioning, too, that this… Hallows came out at a very interesting time, in this respect, for villains as a whole. Rowling, in a way, was perfectly fitting a trend that was just growing at the time, which was humanizing your villain, made popular – I believe – in pop culture by the massive popularity of Wicked and the need to tell the other side of the story.
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: Love, love, love that book.
Michael: Yup, yup, yup. Listeners… yes, if you’re only familiar with the musical, listeners, read the book.
Caleb: Yes.
Ann: Read the book.
Caleb: Legitimately, that book changed my life.
Michael: It’s a fantastic book. It’s an excellent book. And Wicked, the book, came out in 1995. The play got massively popular kind of around this time…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: … early 2000s, 2004. So there was definitely that trend, and Rowling was on it early, I think. Again, that’s why I said what I said before: It’s that movement to humanize all of your characters, not to make your villains so one-note. I think we’re definitely in an era now of media where we do not accept villains… we do not accept the Maleficent fairy tale villain of “I’m going to curse a baby because I wasn’t invited to a party.”
Alison: Yeah.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Caleb: Right. It’s almost like we’re being oversaturated with it, but…
Michael: Yes, we have… we have been.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: I think that Harry Potter was definitely part of that movement for changing that in children’s lit.
Alison: Mhm.
Caleb: Sure, yeah.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: So children’s lit has not really… I think a lot of – especially the newer generations who can read all seven right away – do take for granted the fact that Harry Potter probably just seems like a lot of other series now. But it started a lot of trends, and juvie fiction would not be the same afterwards.
Alison: Yeah. And with that we end the chapter. It’s a very short chapter.
Michael: And before we end our final discussion on the Dursley unit, we have one more question for you – one big question about them. Because I did want to make sure it was about the Dursleys, since this is their last – as a family unit – their last on-page appearance. Like you said, Alison, it’s kind of weird that we’re saying goodbye.
Alison: [laughs] I know.
Michael: It’s just saying goodbye to characters!
[Alison and Ann laugh]
Michael: This is the last book and the last… oh, God! [laughs] So the question about the Dursleys that I have for you listeners is,
“This chapter is our final glimpse of the Dursley family unit. As we have examined in this chapter, these characters have to varying degrees evolved from their initial incarnations, leading us to crave as much information about them as we can get in their last appearance. But, in true Rowling fashion, not all is revealed – something that was met with disappointment on many fans’ initial reads of the series. What scraps of information about the Dursleys could Rowling have added here to satisfy our curiosity? What would have been the consequences to the story of Deathly Hallows if more information had been revealed?”
Listeners, to answer that question, head over to alohomora.mugglenet.com where you will see the post for the Podcast Question of the Week, and you can weigh in on your responses on this question – our last one about the Dursleys.
Caleb: And we want to take a moment to thank Ann for joining us, for her great contributions, and for joining us on this week’s episode. Thanks for sticking around with us. We hope you had fun.
Ann: Well, thank you guys so much for having me. It’s been such a… this has been such an honor. I’ve had a great time, and thank you guys for producing such a good podcast. It’s been my constant companion to my commute to work for the last three years.
Caleb: We really enjoy… as we’re getting into this last book, there’s a lot to look back on, so it’s always great to have a voice who has listened to us for so long. So thanks for doing that.
Ann: Mhm.
Michael: And if you haven’t already, you’re going to have to go post… I’m sure everybody in the comments this week is going to want to know what your defense of Percy Weasley was…
[Ann laughs]
Michael: … because it was really, really good.
Ann: Thank you. It was actually part of a dissertation I wrote for his birthday a couple of years ago.
Alison: Oh!
Michael: That is so cool.
Ann: Because I get really mad about Percy Weasley a lot, because… he’s so misunderstood, and he’s my poor little baby.
[Ann and Michael laugh]
Caleb: We will agree to disagree there.
[Ann and Michael laugh]
Michael: So listeners, be on the lookout in the comments section on the forums, because I’m sure Ann would love to share that with the rest of you because it was so excellent.
[Ann laughs]
Michael: And we were so glad to have Ann on the show after all this time – she’s been a listener from the beginning. And luckily she took the chance and made the leap to be on the show. And listeners, we are asking you to make that same daring leap – find the Gryffindor within you – and be on the show. You can check out how to do that on the “Be on the Show” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. If you have some headphones with a built-in microphone, or a microphone on your computer, or a separate microphone as well as some recording equipment on your computer, you are all set. You don’t need any fancy-schmancy equipment – if you do, that’s cool – but you don’t need it. And while you’re on the main site, make sure to download a ringtone to listen to for free while you’re getting ready and gearing up to be on the show. Again, this is Deathly Hallows – you don’t have many more opportunities – so make sure, if you want to be on the show, now’s your chance.
Alison: And if you just want to stay in contact with us, you can tweet us at @AlohomoraMN, find us on Facebook at facebook.com/openthedumbledore, on Tumblr at mnalohomorapodcast, or you can call us and leave us a message at 206-GO-ALBUS (206-462-5287), or send us an Owl on audioBoom at alohomora.mugglenet.com. It’s totally free – all you need is a microphone. And keep them under 60 seconds, if you don’t mind, so we can play them on the show.
Caleb: Also make sure to check out our store, which has a lot of great things like house shirts, shirts with other themes like the Desk!Pig, Mandrake Liberation Front, Minerva Is My Homegirl, and so much more.
Alison: Oh, and apparently I’m doing the smartphone app, too. [laughs]
[Michael laughs]
Alison: It is available on all continents, that we are aware of. Prices will vary…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Caleb: I would really like us to test that one out.
[Caleb and Michael laugh]
Alison: If you can get it in Antarctica, let us know. That would be nice to know.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Shout-out to that listener in Antarctica…
Alison: At the science stations down there. Anyway…
[Michael laughs]
Alison: … if you listen to us down there, let us know. That would be really cool. [laughs]
Michael: That would be.
Alison: It includes things like transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and so much more.
Caleb: All right. Well, that’s going to do it for this week’s episode. And in just a few days it will be the start of term, so make sure you’re not late to Hogwarts on September 1. I’m Caleb Graves.
[Show music begins]
Michael: I’m Michael Harle.
Alison: I’m Alison Siggard. Thank you for listening to Episode 153 of Alohomora!
Michael: [as Dudley] Don’t be a waste of space. Open the Dumbledore!
[Show music continues]
