Transcript – Episode 143
[Show music begins]
Caleb Graves: This is Episode 143 of Alohomora! for June 27, 2015.
[Show music continues]
Caleb: Hey, everyone. [laughs] I’m laughing because I’ve realized what I get to say. This is… welcome to our last episode…
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: … in the month of June. How does it always happen that I get to do this? I’m Caleb Graves.
Kristen Keys: I’m Kristen Keys.
Alison Siggard: And I’m Alison Siggard. And today our guest is Shauna Evans. Welcome, Shauna.
Shauna Evans: Hello.
Alison: Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Shauna: Well, I am a Ravenclaw. Caw. I’m a million percent Ravenclaw. And I’m 29. I’m a special education teacher. I teach mostly middle school language arts, but when you teach special ed., you teach a whole bunch of other stuff, too. So yeah. So that’s me. [laughs]
Caleb: Well, props to you for that; special ed. is certainly the most challenging.
Shauna: Yeah.
Caleb: When I was teaching, and my friends who taught special ed… I was just always amazed at what they would have to deal with. Not just students, but administration. So God bless you because it’s a tough job.
Shauna: [laughs] Yeah, it’s tons of fun. I do love my job and I love getting to talk with kids about young adult fiction, so obviously… I don’t think I’d be doing what I do if it wasn’t for Harry Potter, so…
Caleb: Are a lot of your kids into YA right now?
Shauna: Not my kids. [laughs] Not in the resource room; but kids that I interact with in other locations, they are. And I’m always excited to see what they’re reading and try to pick up what they’re reading as well.
Caleb: Are there any books that are trending really big right now? I feel like I have no idea what would be popular for those kids.
[Alison laughs]
Shauna: I’m trying… some of the kids were reading… what was it? The Maze Runner series this year…
Caleb: Oh, okay.
Kristen: Oh, yeah.
Shauna: … so I read those, too. They were… eh. [laughs]
Kristen: I enjoyed them. [laughs]
Alison: I enjoyed the first one.
Shauna: I don’t know, I thought the ending was convenient…
[Kristen laughs]
Shauna: … but there’s nothing like Harry, so what are you going to do?
[Caleb laughs]
Kristen: Exactly. Exactly.
Alison: Speaking of reading, we want to make sure that everyone has read Chapter 25 of Half-Blood Prince this week, “The Seer Overheard,” as we will be discussing it on this episode.
Kristen: But before we go into Chapter 25, let’s recap the comments from last week, Chapter 24. And this first comment comes from DolphinPatronus, aka Estee:
“On the topic of Katie… is it possible her memory loss has more to do with the curse that was on the necklace than the Imperius Curse? Barty Crouch Jr. used this curse on Harry and while it didn’t work out completely he did seem to remember. Once Barty Jr. reveals himself at [the] end of GoF he talks about being kept under forced house arrest by his father under the Imperius Curse, which he seems to remember. These things make me think Katie’s memory loss isn’t related to being under the Imperius Curse as much as it could be the curse that was on the necklace. Also, do you think it’s possible they Obliviated part of her memory in the hospital to reduce the possible traumatic memories she may have had?”
Alison: If they’re Obliviate-ing people’s memories in the hospital, there’s some serious ethic issues going on in the wizarding world.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Alison: Someone really needs to step up if that’s happening.
Kristen: Yeah.
Caleb: What if it wasn’t Obliviate-ing to help her out, but what if Voldemort has a man or woman on the inside at St. Mungo’s that got to her and took out her memory?
Alison and Kristen: Ooh.
Caleb: That’s what I thought about when I started reading this.
Kristen: Yeah, that’s crazy.
Shauna: I think that would be more likely. If they were going to Obliviate some of her memory, they would’ve had to know that she had traumatic memories in the first place. So someone would have known what happened.
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: True.
Caleb: Yeah, that’s a good comparison to Barty Crouch, Jr. I really hadn’t thought about that. Yeah, I could see that being why she doesn’t remember. I don’t think the Imperius Curse is enough to make her forget everything.
Alison: Well, though, Barty Crouch, Jr. does say that he remembers but he also… it’s like being in a fog, right?
Kristen: Mhm. Yeah.
Alison: Something like that. And he talks about how there were times he’s more aware of what’s going on around him than others.
Kristen: I think the more it was used on him, the more he was able to pick up on it and get out of the fog. Right?
Alison and Caleb: Yeah.
Caleb: That’s true.
Shauna: Do you think it has to do with the strength of the witch or wizard performing the curse?
Kristen: Yeah.
Caleb: I don’t know because…
Kristen: Yeah.
Caleb: … well, forget… correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s Rosmerta that puts the Imperius Curse on her, right? We learn later.
Alison: Yes.
Caleb: Yeah, and so I don’t think… and she’s also under an Imperius Curse, so I feel like that dilutes it maybe a little bit. And also, I don’t think we have any reason to think Rosmerta is an especially powerful wizard. Witch, rather.
Alison: I could see that being a part of it, though. I feel like that’s a general magic thing overall, is some people are more adept at different spells than others and so their spells are stronger.
Caleb: Yeah.
Kristen: Our next comment comes for DisKid, and they say,
“I completely agree that Harry got off really easy here for this act and while he shouldn’t have casted it at all, thank goodness he did it while Snape was there and could countercurse it. Harry could have killed somebody and that would be really hard for Dumbledore to sweep under the rug. I was worried the [Malfoys] would try [to] have Harry arrested for this when I first read this book. I wonder, though, who or what did Snape practice this spell on? He obviously invented it while he was at school. Did he practice this on an animal? I imagine if he did this to a student there would have been a huge investigation as to what happened and what the curse was that caused it. Was he planning to try this curse on James or Sirius? Why didn’t he? Was he too worried that Lily would find out and grow to despise him even more? I’d like to know more about Snape and not only why he had enough rage to invent this spell in the first place, but who/what he practiced it on and wanted to to use it with.”
Yeah. [laughs]
Caleb: So I totally buy that he was probably thinking of using it on James or Sirius, as for why he did it.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Kristen: Oh, I could totally see that.
Caleb: Yeah, I guess it would depend… that’s a hard timeline to remember and I don’t know if we know enough, if he would’ve… well, I guess we really don’t know enough… if he invented it before or after Lily started giving him the cold shoulder?
Kristen: Mhm.
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: Because if it was before, it totally makes sense. She would be the reason why he stopped. I guess maybe even after, too.
Alison: Yeah.
Shauna: I mean, if it’s in this Potions book, can we assume that it was invented in the sixth year?
Kristen: Year 6. Mhm.
Shauna: Which would have been after the incident with Lily.
Alison: Yeah, for sure. Interesting. Oh, I just got chills.
[Kristen laughs]
Alison: Practicing… yeah, how did he practice it? Oh, gosh.
Kristen: Yeah. That would be horrible.
Shauna: If he’s practicing on animals, it’s like serial killer Snape.
Alison: Yeah, yay. Ugh.
Kristen: But yeah, it is crazy to think about who he was practicing it on or what he was practicing it on.
Caleb: Yeah, I totally… I mean, it had to be animals, right? Because anyone else would show up with some random curse and…
Alison: Someone would show up and… yeah.
Kristen: I would assume so… but could you use it on inanimate objects just to see… is it swordlike? Would it do that? If you had a tree, would it just show a giant sword mark almost? Just wondering. [laughs]
Shauna: You might be able to do that, but then you wouldn’t really know the extent of the damage on something living.
Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: Maybe he did, though.
Kristen: But I mean, you could assume a sword would hurt somebody really bad.
Shauna: Yeah.
Kristen: I don’t know. I don’t like Snape anyway, so I can see him being a serial killer.
Caleb: Yeah, that’s really troublesome, but I am… the more I think about it, I’m really interested in the motivation for why he created it in the first place. I mean, it could just be idle curiosity, but it’s an interesting thought.
Kristen: Yeah, definitely. I really enjoyed this comment. All right, and our last comment comes from Griff, and they say,
“Ginny has this Gryffindor fierceness completely at odds with Hermione’s Gryffindor righteousness – fighting fire with fire. It’s an interesting match with Harry’s more noble leanings. And super Weasley. I love the clan, but we do see the darker side of their charisma and loyalty. We see Fred and George give Dudley the ton tongue toffee bc he’s a prat, Ron (as Luna notes) say funny but not nice things, even Mrs. Weasley fights to kill Bellatrix, rather than to debilitate. I think it’s something Harry likes in Ginny (and a quality he likes in his adopted family), their fierce loyalty. Even if it can have a darker side at times – Harry never would have defended the use of that curse in the way Ginny did – the two of them strike a nice balance, with Harry more idealistic, Ginny more practical.”
Alison: I like this. I like how we see, through these characters, different sides of, at least, this house. There’s different ways to be brave and Gryffindor and I like that each of the characters has their own little part of it.
Kristen: And everybody has a dark side to them a little bit. Not everybody is purely light.
Alison and Caleb: Yeah.
Caleb: And I think even within the Weasleys – obviously within the Weasley family – it’s more diverse, too. They’re certainly not all the same; Ginny is very different from Ron. But I think comparing Ginny to her mom is pretty legit.
Kristen: Mhm. Oh, definitely.
Caleb: At least in a lot of ways.
Kristen: Yeah. Well, that’s it for all the recap comments. I thoroughly enjoyed reading them all. And if you would like to discuss more, just head over onto our page at alohomora.mugglenet.com and write your thoughts from last week’s episode.
Caleb: So we’re going to move into some of your responses from last episode’s Question of the Week, and really quickly, that question was, “In this chapter we know Snape uses Legilimency to discover that Harry has been using the Half-Blood Prince’s book. Once Snape discovers this information, what does he do with it? Does he tell Dumbledore? How does Snape having this information influence the rest of this book and his overall story arc?” So I’m pretty confident – I may have missed one – but I think everyone who commented agreed that Snape likely did not tell Dumbledore, that he probably… for the most part, most people thought he kept it to himself. What was interesting was the different motivations Snape would have had for doing this. So we start off with WizardorWhat – excuse me, WizardorWhat – who said,
“I can see Snape keeping this information to himself to avoid having to confront his past (i.e. his invention of Sectumsempra, etc.) Also, as part of his general Harry-demonising agenda, I can also see him preferring for other staff to think that Harry invented or discovered the spell himself.”
So a short answer but pretty to the point. I guess that we don’t really see the other staff thinking of Harry in this demonizing way. Obviously, McGonagall is super unhappy with him, but…
[Shauna laughs]
Caleb: … thinking beyond him being an idiot who attacked another student, really doesn’t progress beyond that.
Alison: Harry Demonizing Agenda. I love that phrase.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Caleb: Yeah. The question is, is that something Snape is really that focused on? Or does he have so many other things going on, and this is just something that comes along with it?
Alison: Uh…
Caleb: Because I feel like there’s a shift here when Snape realized what’s going on.
Alison: Yeah. I don’t necessarily feel like he’s specifically trying to make out Harry as this demon child, but he’s definitely trying to make Harry pay for some of the things James did. He’s definitely taking that…
Kristen: Oh, yeah.
Shauna: Well, I think by now it’s the sixth year, and everyone knows that a lot of the staff really like Harry. I don’t think Snape would think that any of them would believe that Harry would invent something like [Sectumsempra] and use it knowing what it did.
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: All right. Well, the next response comes from Olivia Underwood, who had a really great and long response. I’ve cut it down just a little bit for time, but for the most part, the comment says,
“Snape didn’t tell Dumbledore I think, because this had to do with himself more than Harry in a weird way, and the real problem being not so much what Harry had done, which of course was terrible, but more the fact that the consequences or repercussions of his own actions (becoming a Death Eater, practising dark magic, etc.) were still being carried out, after all these years. […] Seeing Harry using this spell, the very thing [that] destroyed his relationship with Lily, would have been really tough I think. The blood is still on his hands, and the unforgivable choices he made just won’t leave him alone. He’s angry because Harry, unknowingly, witnessed the very thing [that] he, and Lily, despised about himself – so Harry sees not only Draco’s vulnerable side but Snape’s too, in a weird way. The detention later, by which time Snape has composed himself and reasoned with himself, where Harry sees his father’s wrongdoings in the records, is Snape trying to validate his actions, as if to say, ‘Well, what choice did I have, he wasn’t exactly innocent either was he, he was just as bad as I was, if not worse and he deserved it.’ (This being Snape referring to James). It’s immature, but it’s also him trying to cover his tracks because Harry saw too much, almost like seeing Snape’s skeleton in the [closet].”
Alison: Interesting.
Kristen: I really liked how they said that Snape wouldn’t tell because then it would fall back on him almost. I didn’t think about that.
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: Yeah, what I really liked was how it shows that this is a very human response. Snape, like you said, wanted to cover himself in the beginning and realized this was really bad and obviously he’s partially at fault for it. And as it goes on, he’s trying to rationalize his own decision to punish Harry. Which I think is something we all do when we’re trying to rationalize something we struggle with.
Alison: Yeah. Yep.
Shauna: Well, and it sounds like he’s trying to also rationalize his treatment of James and the secret that he had with Lily.
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: Of course, it wasn’t the Sectumsempra specifically that alienated Lily, but more just the Dark Arts.
Shauna: Yeah. I struggled with that when I saw this comment at first…
Caleb: Yeah.
Shauna: … but I guess they’re saying it’s just reminding him of his school days and that time in his life, et cetera…
Caleb: Right. All right, the last response we’re going to read comes from They ve Taken My Wheezy!, and it says,
“This discovery most likely just makes it easier for Snape to continue being distant and cold. And with Dumbledore’s days being numbered, Snape knows that before long HE will HAVE to HELP Harry Potter. So this discovery would also make this more difficult for Snape to do. Not only is Harry cheating, but Harry is receiving praise for Snape’s work! Snape HATES Harry! How frustrating must it be to know that the one person he hates is being praised for his work! So this makes it harder for Snape to work with Harry, yet might also show us just how strong Snape is. Even after this discovery Snape is able to overcome hatred and help Harry. Be it FOR Harry’s sake, Lilly’s sake, or simply the greater good, Snape still overcomes this hatred, and after this discovery that must have taken strength.”
Alison: Ooh, I would disagree that he overcomes that hatred.
[Kristen laughs]
Caleb: I think “overcomes” is probably – I would agree – taking it too far. But he certainly learns how to… I don’t know what the word is…
Alison: He kind of works around it…
Caleb: There you go.
Alison: Because he’s…
Kristen: There you go, yeah. [laughs]
Alison: He sees the purpose for working around it, but I definitely don’t think he ever gets over that.
[Kristen laughs]
Alison: I think he is bitter about it until the very end.
Caleb: Yeah. I think “working around it” is a very good way to say it.
Kristen: Yes, I agree totally. [laughs]
Shauna: Actually this makes me think, a couple of chapters back – in the chapter where Harry and Draco were the only people in Potions class – Harry made the potion with an extra sprig of mint. I was thinking, wouldn’t Slughorn recognize some of the little touches that Snape probably used when he was in Potions class? I was always confused… why doesn’t he pick up on the fact that Harry is essentially repeating what another remarkable Potions student did in the past?
Alison: Meh, I’ve always thought Slughorn wasn’t that observant.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Kristen: I would say old age…
Shauna: Does he just like Harry a lot more than Snape? [laughs]
Kristen: I think so.
Caleb: I think he also wants reasons to like Harry, right?
Alison and Kristen: Yeah.
Kristen: I think that’s another reason, yeah.
Caleb: Yeah. All right, three really great perspectives on Snape’s motivations. And like I said, there are a lot of other really great responses, so head over to our main site and you can check those out.
Alison: All right, and now we’re going to get into our chapter discussion of Chapter 25.
[Half Blood Prince Chapter 25 intro begins]
Dumbledore: If I tell you to hide, will you do so?
Harry: Yes.
Trelawney: Chapter 25.
Dumbledore: If I tell you to flee, will you obey?
Harry: Yes.
Trelawney: “The Seer Overheard.”
Dumbledore: If I tell you to leave me and save yourself, you will do as I tell you?
Harry: Yes, sir.
[Half Blood Prince Chapter 25 intro ends]
Alison: All right. So this chapter is really a roller coaster of emotion as Harry goes from his blissful new relationship with Ginny to enraged and excited. Harry is still learning the truth about the circumstances surrounding the prophecy, but his anger at Dumbledore is tempered by his desire to destroy a Horcrux for the first time. We’re building towards the climax in this book, and the tension mounts in the few short pages of this chapter. This is a big one. I forgot just how big this one is and not very long.
Shauna: But yeah, it was weird. So much happened in this chapter and it was one of the shorter ones in the book.
Alison: Yeah. But the first point we’re going to talk about is this romance as we open with that. So apologies to all the listeners who are invested in the shipping of this book. [laughs] But it’s our first time really seeing both of these couples set off. Obviously we’ve got Harry and Ginny – it starts out with a conversation between them – but we also really see Ron and Hermione being paired together. And I think Shauna had a point about this.
Shauna: I just thought the tattoo conversation that the chapter opens with is fantastic.
[Everyone laughs]
Shauna: Especially the fact that when Ginny says that Romilda Vane’s asking about it, Harry’s like, “What did you tell her I had?” And I was like, has Ginny seen Harry’s bare chest? I’m very confused.
[Kristen and Shauna laugh]
Shauna: That was awkward. Also, the comment about Ron and the Pygmy Puff tattoo and not saying where it was, I thought was one of the funniest moments in the entire series.
Alison: [laughs] I love how it’s described that Hermione starts rolling on the floor because she’s laughing so hard at that.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: That just cracks me up. Of all the things that Hermione would think is that funny, that it would be that comment… that she would just lose it. Oh… all right.
Caleb: I wish this scene would have made it into the movie. It would’ve been really great.
Alison: Oh! It would be fabulous.
Shauna: Yeah, there’s so no development of that relationship in the movie, but that’s fine. [laughs]
Alison: [laughs] Yeah.
[Kristen laughs]
Alison: Another thing I noticed was just how Harry’s happiness is so apparent through the entire beginning of this chapter, just in the tone that it takes. It’s just… did anyone else feel that it was just lighter and kind of… not fluffier, but… it was just…
[Dog barks and someone whispers “Shh!”]
Shauna: It’s almost like there’s nothing bad going on. It’s like, “Oh, we’re normal. We’re sitting on the floor talking.”
Kristen: Mhm.
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: “LOL. Just hanging out talking.”
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Alison: Yeah! It’s really like… there’s just so much normalcy to this relationship and the subtleness of it. It got me thinking… there’s an interview or something out there where Jo says Harry’s dream is just to have that happy normal family. And I thought the tone of this whole thing just fit into that, and I really like that. I don’t know. It’s so different from Harry’s short-lived relationship with Cho that was confusion and tears and [laughs] massive…
Caleb: Yeah, it’s worthwhile. In just the previous chapter, Harry just briefly mentions that Ginny and Cho will be playing against each other in the Quidditch match.
Shauna: Well, and at this point, Harry and Ginny have been spending quite a lot of time together in a friendly sort of capacity. And the best relationships that you can have are with the people [whom] you’re friends with prior to being interested in romantically. It just makes things normal that way.
Alison: Yeah. Definitely. All right, so from there, this moment is broken up by Hermione bringing the newspaper clipping with the picture of Eileen Prince. So my question is “Is it too convenient that Eileen Prince is Snape’s mom?”
Caleb: Yeah, I was thinking about this when I was reading. It seems so silly to me now.
Kristen: I totally agree. I was like, “Oh, goodness.” [laughs]
Caleb: Because I’m also thinking about this having not read ahead yet to remember everything, but nothing else significant really happens with that connection, right? Other than Snape is her son, right?
Kristen: I believe so.
Caleb: She’s not relevant other than that.
Alison: Yeah, that’s it.
Caleb: Yeah. I mean, I don’t know. Jo is really good at red herrings, but this obviously isn’t a red herring; it’s just some weird connection that happens to be important later.
Alison: Yeah. It’s like it’s trying to be a red herring, but it’s a pathetic attempt [at] a red herring, where it’s like, “Oh, here, I’m going to flop this over here.” I wonder, though, if there was a plot that may be cut from that because it seems out of place.
Shauna: Well, have any of you looked at the really strange theories about Eileen Prince being Madam Pince?
Caleb: Oh my God, I’m so interested.
Alison: No.
Kristen: Oh, no.
Alison: What?
Shauna: Yeah, I found this article online a while ago, and I was just looking at it, and it’s really strange, but apparently, there are a lot of behavioral parallels between Madam Pince and Snape. She swoops down, she’s yelling at the kids a lot, and every time there’s a scene with her throughout the books – this article that I read documented it – in the library, it’s followed up by a really Snape-heavy chapter so that their behaviors are juxtaposed to each other. Apparently, “Irma Pince” is an anagram for “I’m a prince”…
Alison: What? [laughs] Wow.
Shauna: Yeah! And it’s really strange because why would Snape’s mom be hidden at Hogwarts? Well, the person who wrote the article was saying that there really is no reason for Dumbledore and Snape to have the bond that they do – which I feel like I want to get into that later – but they were saying that perhaps Dumbledore offered to take Snape’s mother in to Hogwarts to protect her from the Death Eaters and that he was holding that over Snape so that Snape was motivated by his love for his mother. And so that even though Eileen Prince never really shows up again, she does? I don’t know. It’s really strange, but it’s an interesting theory.
[Kristen laughs]
Caleb: I would have never thought about this.
Kristen: No. That’s crazy.
Caleb: I feel like Jo would have let us know, surely, by the end.
Kristen: I would really hope so. I hope she doesn’t come back now and be like, “Oh, yeah, it was Snape’s mom the whole time.”
Caleb: Well now, if she hadn’t planned it, because we know she listens to the show, she has a way out…
Kristen: Exactly, she’s going to go back and say…
Caleb: … because of this explanation. “I’m a prince.”
Shauna: She’s like, “That’s a great idea. I never used that character again, and everyone was wondering where she was, so…”
[Kristen laughs]
Caleb: So now we have to consider, if in fact that is Snape’s mother, the fact that she is certainly romantically involved with a certain Argus Filch…
[Everyone laughs]
Shauna: This was brought up in the article too, because they said there were scenes in Sorcerer’s Stone where Filch is dressing Snape’s wound on his leg, and why would he do that?
[Everyone laughs]
Shauna: This person put a lot of thought into this.
Kristen: Wow.
Alison: Oh my gosh.
[Shauna laughs]
Kristen: Ugh.
Alison: Okay. Anyway. So okay. So going back to the Eileen Prince [whom] we know is there, do we know if she was an accomplished potioneer? Hermione says she’s going to go off and look for who Eileen Prince was and if she was in lists of famous potioneers. And I think we can probably assume that the copy of Advanced Potion-Making was probably hers before it was Snape’s, so do we know? Does anyone know if we ever found that out?
Caleb: I don’t think this ever comes [unintelligible], and I don’t think we know anything.
Alison: Okay. Couldn’t remember. All right, and now we get to the main point of the chapter, which is this interaction with Trelawney and this revelation about Snape. So we finally find out the circumstances surrounding Trelawney’s first real prediction that we have heard of, and so my question was “We know that she was staying at the Hog’s Head and that Aberforth is the one who took Snape down when he found him at the door, so do we think Aberforth was keeping a lookout for Albus during this interview for anyone who might be causing trouble or…?
Caleb: Albus didn’t have any inkling this prophecy was going to happen, right? So what would be the reason for Aberforth keeping a lookout?
Shauna: Was it just a time where there were a lot of Death Eater around? They wanted to make sure that nobody was going to – I don’t know – bust in and try to take out Dumbledore?
Kristen: And it’s a sketchy place. But then that would be my reasoning too, is just because of the time period it was.
Caleb: Yeah. It’s still interesting to me that Albus would spend his time there, because they still had, obviously, not a very warm relationship. I think things are… obviously they are still in some ways working together because of the tunnel we learn about in Deathly Hallows. Well, no, actually, no.
Shauna: Because that’s Neville.
Alison: Yeah, that’s Neville [who] creates that.
Caleb: Yes. For some reason, I was thinking there were other reasons they use it, but Albus definitely doesn’t use it. So yeah, I don’t know. It’s even weird to me now, thinking about it, [that] Albus is even using this place for the interview.
Alison: Well, I guess it’s because that’s where Trelawney is staying.
Caleb: And it’s hard for her to get around, so… girl’s got a few struggles.
[Alison, Kristen, and Shauna laugh]
Alison: Yeah, she’s got a few issues there. But I wonder, though, if maybe Aberforth did know that his brother was doing some business if he was a little bit more… what’s the word I’m looking for? I can’t think of it. If he’s paying more attention to the room that he knows that this interviewis happening in.
Shauna: Unless he just happened to walk by and saw this random greasy-haired, hook-nosed guy leaning against the keyhole with his…
Alison: [laughs] Yeah, that’s true. Speaking against Snape leaning against the keyhole, okay, how did he not realize that Lily could be a target of this? And her family, I mean, he at least, from a distance, knew, right? That Lily and James had defied Voldemort and probably knew they had a kid at some point, so how…?
Caleb: But wouldn’t he have to know that Harry was born at the end of July?
Alison: That’s true.
Caleb: He probably doesn’t know that.
Kristen: There'[re] probably tons of people, yeah, having children.
Caleb: But to not completely discount it, I think you have a point because maybe he wouldn’t pay so much attention to that as those who have thrice defied Voldemort or whatever. He has to be thinking… a lot of the time, just in general, he has to be worrying about Lily as someone who’s constantly defying Voldemort. Is she really safe? So yeah, I actually agree. I think he probably would’ve… I think it makes sense for him to have considered Lily.
Alison: So that brings us back to “Why is he suddenly so desperate to protect her if he’s the one who got her in this mess in the first place?” Do we think maybe he was thinking more that “Oh, finally he’ll get rid of James?” Do we think maybe he thought he would be able to convince Voldemort to spare Lily?
Shauna: I actually looked back at the chapter in Deathly Hallows where we see all of Snape’s memories, and he strikes a deal with Voldemort, for whatever that’s worth, to spare Lily, and obivously, he didn’t, and I don’t think he would have anyway, but yeah, that’s what he thinks. And he’s probably feeling guilty. Even if he did realize that she was a possibility for someone for him to go after, he might have been like, “Well, whatever, I’ll get her out of my hair, and then I won’t have to think about her anymore,” and then five minutes later, it’s like, “Oh, but I love her. Wahh.”
Alison: That’s a good point. So Shauna, I think you had a couple more points about this as well, if you wanted to go over those.
Shauna: I do. I just thought, logistically, if Trelawney is giving a prophecy and halfway through it, Snape falls into the room, and then Aberforth busts in and is like, “Hey! This guy was listening,” how does Dumbledore hear the second half of the prophecy? Or how does Snape not hear the second half of the prophecy? Because no one is going, “Pause, Trelawney. Stop giving your prophecy, and then come back and start it up again in two minutes when they’ve left.”
Kristen: Oh, that’s true.
Alison: But can she pause?
Shauna: I would think not. [laughs]
Kristen: I mean, because she should still… I don’t know.
Alison: I wonder, then, if Dumbledore used the Pensieve to dive back in to hear the rest of it. But then… yeah, hmm.
Kristen: Yeah, like you said, I’m sure Snape would hear other words here or there, something else. I mean, it could be she was… I mean, she got distracted as well, fallen out of the trance.
Alison: And then went back into it. I can definitely see that.
Shauna: I just also think that there’s been much talk on this show of imcompetent Hogwarts teachers, and this woman is clearly an alcoholic.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Shauna: She says she’s been hiding sherry bottles for years [laughs] in the Room of Requirement, and everyone’s okay with that. [laughs] And I’m like, “How drunk is she when she’s teaching teenagers?” I don’t know. It’s very odd.
Alison: I wonder if people can tell or if they think she’s just in some Seer’s state.
[Alison and Caleb laugh]
Shauna: That’s true. She does always behave as if she’s drunk. So maybe just… [laughs]
Kristen: Oh yeah, definitely. That’s why she never eats with anybody.
[Shauna laughs]
Kristen: She’s off in her office getting drunk.
Shauna: Because she’s too busy drinking sherry. She’s down in the kitchens with Winky.
[Everyone laughs]
Kristen: She doesn’t want them to know. [laughs]
Alison: Ohh! They need interventions at Hogwarts.
[Everyone laughs]
Kristen: Hogwarts rehab.
Shauna: Yeah, no. The teachers there are pretty terrible. And I also love how she describes hearing Draco as “whooping.” And they use the word “whopping” over and over again. So now every time I read that… my husband and I have been reading chapters out loud to each other at night, and now, every time we read about Draco, I’m just going to be like, “Whoop!”
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: I don’t know if you bring it up later but how Dumbledore actually reacts when Harry tries to deal… tell him when… he gets thrown off whenever he tells… Dumbledore just asks him if he’s ready to go deal with the Horcrux, and Harry then explodes and Dumbledore responds. Because I am very angry at this part.
Alison: Yeah, no. It’s so frustrating just to… Dumbledore just doesn’t… he just shuts him down so many times, and it’s so frustrating to me that he can’t be just like, “Look, Harry, here’s the deal. Okay? You’re going to have to let go of your personal prejudice.”
Shauna: Well, I thought the writing of this chapter was not Rowling’s best writing. I felt that the appearence of a Horcrux at this point was another one of those, “Oh, look! It’s convenient. We don’t have to talk about Snape overhearing the prophecy because we have to go deal with a Horcrux.”
Caleb: So yeah. That’s an interesting thought. I also… I was thinking… I wasn’t as impressed with the writing in other places, but for a different reason. Because I wondered if she tried too hard to make Dumbledore seem at fault here, for being too irrational and not considering Harry’s points. So that it shows Dumbledore’s flaws later. But the problem with that is, is that so many people still don’t see Dumbledore as really, really problematic and still idolize him in a lot of ways. And I made it very clear since Sorcerer’s Stone, ever since we started the reread.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Caleb: Dumbledore is not a wonderful person a lot of the time, so…
Alison: He’s got a few issues.
Shauna: No, but I do feel like he… I mentioned this on the forums, I think, last week – not this past week but the one before – I mean, I feel like he’s treating Harry like a parent who has a terminally ill child. How do you confront that person and say, “Hey, you’ve got a year left to live”? I think there are parents even in that situation who aren’t upfront with their kids because they don’t know how to tell them those things.
Alison: Yeah, it’s just… I don’t know. I think maybe what was bothering me about this whole situation is just… Did we have to find out that everyone knew that Snape was the one who…? I don’t know. That just seems like an odd place, logistically, like we were saying before. How would that have all worked? It just seems a little strange and mixed up, but …
Shauna: Well, he’s there for a job interview as well. And then I was wondering, why is he interviewing for a job at Hogwarts at this point? Is it because he loves Potions so much or…
Kristen: The dark arts, right?
Shauna: … is Voldemort there trying to put him there as a spy?
Alison: I don t think he’s actually there for an interview. I think he’s just spying and… Because the whole thing happened with him telling Voldemort the prophecy and going after Lily probably happened so soon after that, maybe he… That was the cover story that Trelawney heard, that he was looking for a job interview, where Dumbledore just hired [Snape] to look after him after this whole thing happened.
Shauna: Well, okay, and that brings up what I was saying before, which is the whole Snape and Dumbledore relationship, and I just don’t understand…
Alison: Oh, I agree.
Shauna: … what did Snape do to earn Dumbledore’s trust to the point that he literally trusts him with his life at the end of this book? What did he do?
Kristen: Love.
Caleb: Yeah, so I was thinking this…
Shauna: But who was he loving? [laughs]
Caleb: Yeah, and it’s obviously something to show he cares about Lily.
Kristen: Mhm.
Caleb: But… God, I don’t know. What could he have showed him? His Patronus, maybe? But I feel like Dumbledore was smart enough to realize…
Alison: Even then…
Caleb: … people can probably manipulate [their] Patronus.
Shauna: Yeah.
Caleb: … if you are a strong enough wizard.
Alison: And I know they say multiple times that “Oh, he reformed,” but it… Yeah, no, I’m kind of on the more Ron side where it’s like, “Yeah, what are you going to show to say that you did that?”
Shauna: I mean…
Kristen: I mean, Dumbledore has always said love. Like how [it’s] all about love and everything like that, as much as it sounds so stupid – no offense – but…
Alison: Dumbledore is such a hippie. But again…
Kristen: Yeah, it could be to how much Snape loves Lily that he’s like, “All right, I’ll see you do whatever you want.”
Shauna: But in the chapter in Deathly Hallows when Snape tells Dumbledore what happened, Dumbledore is like, “You are a selfish a-hole.”
Alison: Yeah.
Shauna: [laughs] He essentially says it to him. “You are a selfish coward because you put the life of this woman before the rest of her family, and that’s awful of you.” So I feel like there had to have been something else. And just thinking a lot, I was wondering if maybe Dumbledore and Snape had some kind of relationship when Snape was at Hogwarts. Which seems weird, but at the same time I can’t really see Snape being buddy buddy with Slughorn, who was his head of house. [laughs]
Alison: Mhm.
Shauna: I can’t see them sitting down to have tea together.
Alison: I don’t know…
Shauna: And I can see Dumbledore taking pity. But Snape had no father figure, so I could see Dumbledore taking maybe a little bit of pity on him, and maybe even if they weren’t friendly or hanging out together trying to keep an eye out for him and maybe having a soft spot for him.
Alison: I don’t know just because, like you were saying, that interaction in “The Prince’s Tale” where they meet on that hill, he’s so… Dumbledore is so distant and cold. And I feel like had Snape and Dumbledore had a good relationship when Snape was a student, Snape would have been less likely to go over to Voldemort because of…
Shauna: Yeah, because he had someone on that side who was influencing him? But even if Dumbledore was just like, “I’m going to keep an eye out for that kid…” There are students [who] I teach that I don’t have a great relationship with them but I have a soft spot for them.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Shauna: If they came to me with something…
Kristen: I hear that. [laughs]
Shauna: Yeah, you’d be like, “Okay, that was really, really stupid and awful of you, but here’s how we’re going to fix it.”
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: Mhm.
Shauna: I don’t know. It was just weird because I just… There’s no other thing I can think of that would make it okay. [laughs] That would make Dumbledore forgive him and trust him so much.
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: And it’s just a convenient thing we need to happen.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Plot points, plot points.
Caleb: Or Dumbledore looked deep in his eyes and he just knows.
[Alison laughs]
Shauna: And saw the good in his soul. Yeah, this one needs to go up on Pottermore too, so if Jo is…
Caleb: Yeah…
Shauna: … listening…
Caleb: I guess when they revise, now that they’re…
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: … done with Pottermore.
Alison: Really, though.
Shauna: Oh yeah, that just happened.
[Caleb laughs]
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: I had a… Just to go back to Snape peeking through the hole and everything, and I know you guys said you don’t think he actually had an interview, but do you think possibly he could have had an interview for the Dark Arts position? Because we know Tom Riddle wanted that position to help influence the children. Do you think he could have passed that, and maybe if Snape did have that somewhat connect with Dumbledore, he could get into the school and start manipulating kids?
Alison: Well, I think Dumbledore knew Snape was a Death Eater, and I think he would have been wary to let him in, knowing his loyalty was to Voldemort and that it could perhaps be on Voldemort’s orders. So I think Dumbledore knew and would have rejected that.
Kristen: Oh, I totally would agree he would have rejected it, but do you think he still might have tried to see if Snape could get that interview and possibly could get that job? Because at one point, he thought he could.
Alison: Maybe. Yeah, maybe. I don’t know. I mean, that’s a possibility, I guess. Well, now that Harry has exploded in this roller coaster, [laughs] now he’s off with Dumbledore to go destroy a Horcrux. But first he runs back to the Gryffindor common room, and he gives Ron and Hermione the last of his Felix and just gives them a warning about Malfoy and Snape. So my question here is, how far did Harry really think this potion would go? Maybe I’m just thinking of the movie, where the vial is tiny, and we do know Harry has had a little bit of it, so how many members of the DA do we maybe think Harry thought would show up or…?
Shauna: He only says Ron and Hermione and Ginny should take it. I don’t think he directs them to share it with anyone else.
Alison: Yeah, that’s what I’m wondering, is, was he just saying, “This is only for the three of you, but [unintelligible].”
Caleb: Yeah. No, I definitely think he was primarily focused on them and round up the DA to help out if something happens.
Kristen: Yeah, and I think maybe Neville and Luna would be associated with that, and that’s probably as far as he would have thought.
Shauna: If they’re all having good luck, if the three of them are having good luck, then presumably the DA is going to have good luck. I don’t know if it works that way. It’s a super vague potion, so…
Alison: I mean, I guess it would be bad luck if one of your friends died. [laughs] That would not be a good idea.
Shauna: There are a lot of mentions of socks throughout the series of Harry Potter.
Alison: It’s true.
Shauna: It is so true. And it starts in Sorcerer’s Stone when Dumbledore lies to Harry and says that he sees himself in the Mirror of Erised [with] a pair of socks when later in the series, we know that he probably sees himself with his family, feeling loved, and there are socks again… When Harry frees Dobby, he does it with a sock. It’s almost like he is bestowing his love upon Dobby. And there’s even a scene where Harry receives socks from the Dursleys as a Christmas present. And granted, they are used, smelly, old Vernon socks. But maybe that’s how they care about him, in a used, smelly way, but there’s still that family bond. So I come from a family of English teachers and lovers, and we discussed these books at length. So we just see socks as a really big symbol of love in the series. So I thought it was interesting that he gives Ron this pair of socks that has the Felix Felicis in it, and Ron is like, “This is great, but what do I need socks for?” But it was just almost like Harry’s blessing, like, “I care about the three of you. I’m even going to sacrifice this small piece of myself, my own safety, for your success,” which echoes what he does later when he sacrifices his life in Deathly Hallows.
Alison: I like it. [laughs]
Kristen: That’s cute.
Caleb: Yeah, I think it’s a really cool moment because… I can’t remember if it’s Ron or Hermione [who] first says, “Why isn’t Harry taking it as he goes off with Dumbledore?” which is certainly the more obvious imminent danger to everyone else. Harry thinks there are other things going on. But he’s so like, “It makes sense. I’ll be with Dumbledore. I’ll be fine.” But he probably still, in theory, should have used it there, assuming if everyone else is right about Malfoy and Harry is wrong. But he’s willing to give it to them because he cares about them being safe more than his own immediate well-being.
Shauna: Yeah, and I mean, it’s foreshadowing that, in the end, he’s going to do the right thing. He’s always going to sacrifice himself for everyone [whom] he cares about. Because love and family is the most important thing to him.
Caleb: Yeah, and I think it’s also really important to really drive home the point that Harry was right all along about Malfoy. And everyone was wrong, including Dumbledore.
Shauna: For once. He is right, for once.
Caleb: And this really drives it home that if Harry would have been wrong about this, if Harry wouldn’t have followed his gut on this, then things could have gone really, really badly.
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: Oh yeah, definitely.
Alison: Speaking of Harry going off, the chapter ends with Harry and Dumbledore setting off to go find this Horcrux. So Dumbledore gives Harry some very specific instructions. He tells him that if he instructs him to run or hide or save himself, Harry needs to follow them. But do we think Harry would have really followed them and did Dumbledore really expect him to stay within those in the heat of a moment? Did he really think that would happen? [laughs]
Caleb: Well, I think Dumbledore really did expect him to. I don’t know if…
Shauna: I think he wants him to. I don’t know if he expects that he will.
Caleb: Yeah, that’s fair. I don’t know. I wonder if Dumbledore really anticipated… no, I think he probably did really anticipate how bad it could get or he wouldn’t have asked those questions. Yeah.
Alison: Okay. The other thing that comes from that conversation is, Harry says he’s not afraid, but I don’t know. It just seems odd to me that he would say he’s not afraid at all. Could his fear just be masked by all his other emotions at this moment of he’s thinking about Malfoy and Snape and he’s thinking about Trelawney and he was earlier thinking about Ginny and how happy he was. So do we think that Harry…?
Kristen: I mean, I just always thought – I don’t know – he didn’t really see how much danger it actually is until they actually arrive there.
Alison: That’s a good point.
Shauna: I would think that, yeah.
Kristen: Because I mean, he’s facing danger, so he’s like, “Eh, this is pretty cool. We’re going to see it. This is going to be awesome,” and doesn’t really realize what they’re walking into. So at this point, I don’t really think he’s afraid, and like you said, he has all these other emotions. He was just furious a second ago, and now…
Shauna: Yeah, he just turned into emo Harry again, where he’s angry and in caps-lock mode, and that was the only reason that I was like, “Why is this all just jammed together like crazy?” Like, “I’m angry. Oh, wait, but now we’re going to go get a Horcrux. Well, then I don’t have to be angry.” I don’t know. There'[re] a lot of emotions that are overlapping in this chapter.
Kristen: I’m just saying yes to everything. Yes, yes, yes, I just want to go.
[Alison laughs]
Caleb: Yeah, let’s do things!
Shauna: Let’s do something stupid and reckless.
Caleb: Maybe it wasn’t so smart for Dumbledore to take him, considering… at least not right then, because Dumbledore just shuts down the conversation. He’s like, “That’s all I’m going to say on it.” Harry is clearly still very emotional about it, and we go into this super dangerous situation.
Shauna: Does he still want to go?
[Alison laughs]
Caleb: Yeah. I mean, I guess Dumbledore thought maybe it was time sensitive, so he didn’t really have a choice, but I don’t know. I don’t think it was a very good decision.
Alison: He could have at least tried to calm Harry down a little bit more, to be like…
Caleb: Yeah. But then again, Harry is not the easiest to rationalize when it comes to Snape.
Alison: True. It took him a year to get off caps-lock, so…
[Alison and Shauna laugh]
Shauna: And now he’s back on it, and thank goodness he didn’t smash up the office again like he was considering.
Kristen: And this is just me asking, but was it time sensitive? Did it have to be that night?
Caleb: Yeah, that’s what I was wondering, I guess. We don’t know what Dumbledore knew. I mean, I guess when we get there, it’s not really time sensitive, though it would have been…
Shauna: No, there is a timestamp on the entire frame of it. It’s as urgent as you make it. Even though it’s not “This has to get done tonight, and that’s it,” the sooner it gets done… and especially for Dumbledore, being that he is facing death soon.
Kristen: Maybe he should have “We can wait an hour or two.”
Alison: Yeah, exactly. [laughs]
Kristen: Harry calms down.
Shauna: Have a biscuit, Potter.
[Alison laughs]
Kristen: Yeah, right? [laughs]
Alison: McGonagall could’ve made this so much safer, so much safer. All right, and then with that, Harry and Dumbledore Apparate into the night and we’re moving on. And that’s the end of the chapter.
Caleb: All right. So we have come up with this week’s Question of the Week to throw out to all of you listeners out there. And we’re doing a what-if question. And here it goes: Hermione suggests that Harry take the Felix Felicis himself as he prepares to set off with Dumbledore, but Harry leaves it with his friends for their safety. As we know, the Felix Felicis proves to be pretty useful whenever the attack happens inside Hogwarts. But what if Harry had in fact taken Hermione’s advice and taken the Felix Felicis with himself? How would that have possibly changed the outcome with Harry and Dumbledore with the Felix Felicis and then with Hermione, Ron, Ginny, and the others at Hogwarts without it? So let us know what you think might have happened in this alternate universe to give us an idea of how important Harry’s decision was.
Kristen: We would like to thank our guest, Shauna, for coming on the show today.
Shauna: Yay.
Kristen: Thanks for being with us.
Shauna: Thank you guys so much. I have to tell you, I only started listening to podcasts in general about a year ago, and I listened to MuggleCast first, and I heard Eric plugging Alohomora!, so at that time…
[Kristen laughs]
Shauna: … and I decided to do an entire reread of the series, so I’ve been listening to this podcast almost every day for a year. I just caught up with where you guys are currently last week, so…
Kristen: Woo-hoo! That’s dedication.
Shauna: But it’s been so much fun, and it’s been great taking another look at the series, but it’s going to be really weird and cool to hear myself on it this week.
[Alison, Kristen, and Shauna laugh]
Shauna: And it’s been really fun because I’ve been listening to you guys so much and talking back to the podcast as it airs anyway to actually be able to do this.
Caleb: So I’m actually curious because you just listened to so much of this show in such a short amount of time relatively, what was it like to hear such a long period of time in such a short span as far as how the show changed over time?
Shauna: Really, there wasn’t a lot that was noticeable other than the hosts changing a lot, which made me really sad because I realized a month or two ago, I was tweeting at everyone, and I was like, “I want all the hosts to respond to me on Twitter,” and there was no Alison or Kristen at that time, so I’m like, “Oh, wow, these people must be like, ‘What are you talking about? I haven’t been on that show for a year.'” So yeah, no, it’s just been fantastic.
Caleb: Very cool. Well, we are happy that you got to join us.
Kristen: Oh, yeah, definitely.
Shauna: Lots of fun.
Caleb: So if you would like to be on the show just like Shauna, head over to our page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. If you have a set of simple headphones, Apple headphones, something like that, you’re all set. No fancy equipment needed. And while you’re there, you can find the link to download a ringtone, which has some pretty ringtones that are… I just said “ringtones” twice.
[Alison, Caleb, and Kristen laugh]
Caleb: What’s wrong with me tonight? I’m going to be correcting myself. I’m just going to keep going. You can download a ringtone for free on the website.
Alison: And if you just want to keep in contact with us, you can tweet us at @AlohomoraMN, find us on Facebook at facebook.com/openthedumbledore, and check us out on Tumblr: mnalohomorapodcast, or give us a call and leave us a message as our Skype number: 206-GO-ALBUS, which is 206-462-5287. Or on our website, you can send us a little owl at audioBoom at alohomora.mugglenet.com. It’s free – all you need is a microphone. And keep it under 60 seconds if you all don’t mind so we can play it on the show.
Caleb: Or else.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Caleb: Or you can also head over to our store that has a lot of really great products, including House shirts that are themed in the way of Desk!Pig, Mandrake Liberation Front, Minerva is my homegirl, and so many more great things.
Kristen: And don’t forget to check out out smartphone app, which is available on this side of the pond and the other. Prices do vary, but you can find transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and much, much more.
Caleb: All right, well, that’s going to do it for this episode, and we’ll end it before we make any more weird things as we try to close out this show.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
[Show music begins]
Caleb: I’m Caleb Graves.
Kristen: I’m Kristen Keys.
Alison: And I’m Alison Siggard. Thank you for listening to Episode 143 of Alohomora!
Kristen: Open the Dumbledore.
[Show music continues]
Kristen: Which staff member do they think is Snape’s mother?
[Everyone laughs]
Kristen: I’m just kidding. It’s Professor McGonagall.
Caleb: Oh my God. Don’t do that to me.
[Everyone laughs]
Shauna: She is also my homegirl, so I would never do that.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Oh, man. Can you imagine? Oh my goodness. Well, he would be less of a jerk probably.
Kristen: Dear Lord. Sorry.
Alison: Can you imagine McGonagall slamming it down as a mom? That’s my new favorite image.
Shauna: What kind of mom would she even be?
Alison: Fabulous.
Shauna: I don’t know. I can’t even…
Caleb: Very stern.
Kristen: I was going to say, “a very stern mom,” but she’d let her hair down occasionally. [laughs]
Caleb: Yeah.
Alison: Those children would be the greatest kids in the world.
Shauna: I’m just thinking, her kids friends’ would be scared to come over. “God, your mom’s going to yell at me again.”
[Sound of typing on a keyboard]
