Transcript – Episode 109
[Show music begins]
Michael Harle: This is Episode 109 of Alohomora! for November 8, 2014.
[Show music continues]
Michael: Hello, listeners, and welcome back to Alohomora!, the global reread of Harry Potter. I’m Michael Harle.
Alison Siggard: I’m Alison Siggard.
Caleb Graves: And I’m Caleb Graves. And joining us today as our special guest is Grace. Hey, Grace! Thanks for joining us. Tell us a little about yourself.
Grace Candido: Thanks for having me. I’m Grace, and I’m also LordTrolldemort on the forums and…
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: … I’ve been part of the Harry Potter fandom for way too long now at this point.
Michael: Oh, never too long, never too long.
Alison: Impossible.
Michael: It’s never too long to be in the Harry Potter fandom.
Grace: It’s never too late to be indoctrinated.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Grace: But seriously, [laughs] I was Sorted into Gryffindor on Pottermore, but to be entirely honest with you, I really love all four Houses for all different reasons. My favorite character is from Slytherin, and I always thought that Hufflepuff probably had the right idea, around all the four founders, and everyone always says that I probably should have been in Ravenclaw, but frankly, I’ll just go all four. Let’s just say that.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Grace: Yeah, I’m a graphic designer, so if I keep talking about things that I’m sketching right now, you’ll know why. [laughs]
Michael: Oh, that’s awesome. That’s really cool.
Grace: Oh, yeah, and I just came back from a trip from Harry Potter world. From Universal.
Michael: Oh, the Wizarding World?
Caleb: Universal?
Grace: Yeah.
Caleb: Oh, nice.
Michael: Did you enjoy it?
Grace: Oh my Lord, did I enjoy it.
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: It was one of the best trips of my life. It was amazing.
Michael: It’s just perfect.
Grace: And the new stuff just brings you to tears. It’s perfect.
Caleb: Perfect.
Michael: Yeah, Diagon Alley was great, huh?
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: Oh, good.
Grace: I can’t even. The butterbeer was fantastic, the ice cream was awesome, the ride was amazing. I just… I could go on forever about this, I really could.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: Just take all of the money, Universal. Just take it.
[Alison laughs]
Grace: I’m done.
Michael: Listeners, Universal does not sponsor us, but…
[Alison laughs]
Michael: … Universal, if you would like to, give us a ring.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: We’re cool with that.
Grace: Yes, please. Thank you.
Michael: Alison, too, remind me and the listeners, Alison, [which] House you’re in.
Alison: I am… I claim Gryffinpuff.
Michael: Oh. [laughs]
Alison: I was originally sorted into Hufflepuff, and then I was sorted again into Gryffindor, and I’d always believed I was a Gryffindor, but I’ve embraced both.
Michael: Oh, you never broke the tie?
Alison: No.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: I just can’t decide.
Caleb: Stick with Gryffindor, both of you. [laughs]
Alison: I know. Lately, my Gryffindor side has been a little bit more active, but [laughs] I love Hufflepuff, though.
Michael: Well, I was going to say… because we almost never have a show where the Gryffindors outnumber everybody.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Caleb: I know. I feel very happy about this for a change.
Michael: It’s a perfect chapter to have…
Grace: I don’t know. I think you’re speaking too soon. My opinions tend to be very, very strange.
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: I love all of you. Don’t get me wrong.
[Caleb laughs]
Grace: I love all the discussions that you guys have, and I’ve been following you for way too long, yet again. [laughs] But I usually find that I disagree with you, Caleb.
Caleb: Well, that’s perfectly fine.
Grace: I’m sorry.
Caleb: I love that you… don’t apologize.
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: A disagreement is always good.
Michael: [laughs] This is a perfect chapter to have a lot of Gryffindors on, actually, isn’t it?
Alison: It is.
Caleb: Indeed it is. And speaking of that chapter, we want to remind you guys that before we get into the discussion… to make sure you read Chapter 31 of Order of the Phoenix, which is the OWLs chapter.
Michael: But before we buckle down and study for that chapter, we’re going to go look back at Chapter 30, which was… what was Chapter 30?
Caleb: [laughs]
Michael: “Grawp.”
Caleb: We just know what the [Google] Doc says.
Michael: [laughs] It’s not what the [Google] Doc says. It’s Chapter 30, which is “Grawp.” And the reason I forgot was because we really had a lot of trouble with…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: … getting through this slogging chapter last week…
Alison: No one cared.
Michael: … because not a lot of us really much care for it, but interestingly enough, we got quite a lot of varied conversation about numerous topics. Unfortunately, I couldn’t include them all, but some of the ones I picked… the first one comes from skgai over on the main site, and skgai said… and this is a very provocative comment, by the way, so brace yourselves. But it’s a good one.
“To me, this is the chapter where Rowling left all of her clues that Harry and Hermione would be together.”
Caleb: Ugh.
Michael: As skgai says,
“I always believed it would be Ron and Hermione, but at the same time I thought the text better supported a Harry/Hermione relationship: ‘[Harry] also suspected that part of his mind – the part that often spoke in Hermione’s voice – now felt guilty[…]’ This line from the text makes the reader assume Harry just has a nagging voice of conscience that happens to be a funny way of describing Hermione. However, that could easily have been one of those lines that we go back [to] and say, [‘]Jo did it again[‘] (if Harry and Hermione [had] shipped). Harry also catches Hermione as she falls backwards in the forest, and they have extremely entertaining banter back and forth like ‘Nice try, Hermione’ and ‘Kind of makes you wish [w]e had Norbert back, doesn’t it?’ that doesn’t [always] involve any bickering. They simply have an adventure together, are able to discuss it rationally and with good humor all without having annoying relationship fights. I guess that means they’re just good friends. C’est la vie!“
[Caleb laughs]
Alison: Okay, I have words to say on this.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Have at it.
Caleb: Say it. Say it.
Michael: Say it now.
Alison: I am so anti-Harry/Hermione shipping that it’s like, really? So…
Grace: No, tell us how you really feel.
Alison: He just… okay, I’m going to pick apart this entire argument, thing by thing.
Michael: Oh, please.
Alison: So the fact Harry’s conscience is Hermione’s voice is because Hermione is literally [the] only one who says anything logically to Harry ever.
[Caleb laughs]
Alison: That he will ever listen to.
[Grace laughs]
Caleb: This includes the adults. [laughs]
Grace: That it does.
Alison: Pretty much. Exactly. Of course, the voice in Harry’s head that is telling him what’s happening for real is going to sound like Hermione. And as for him catching her as she falls backward, was he just supposed to let her fall on the ground? I mean…
Michael: I don’t know. I wouldn’t…
Grace: Yes, of course.
Michael: … have asked Harry to do that. [laughs]
Alison: Anyway, I don’t see it. I just see this as a very friendly banter, two best friends. Hermione is flipping out at this moment, with good reason, and Harry is just trying to calm her down while flipping out himself. So two best friends trying to calm each other down, nothing more.
Michael: Well, yeah, no, I think most people would definitely argue that the dynamic Harry and Hermione have… because as Rowling has put it and as even Harry has put it, they see each other more in a brother-sister type of relationship…
Alison: Yes.
Michael: … so you could definitely argue that. I mean, the funny thing for me is that through this read-through more than any other, I can see how Harry and Hermione would be compatible, and I can see why people get upset about the Hermione-Ron, even though when I read the books, it’s always Ron-Hermione to me, and it always was from the beginning for me. But I can see how the two of them would be compatible because honestly, when they do… when Harry and Hermione go off together, I do look forward to what’s going to happen to the two of them because they seem to bounce off of each other really well with how they solve problems, comparatively speaking to Ron and Hermione, where Ron comes up with crazy theories, and Hermione debunks them all.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: In that way, they certainly seem compatible. I think back to when they were the last two in the Sorcerer’s Stone challenges in the third-floor corridor and then when they both went back in time to save Buckbeak and Sirius.
Grace: They’re both rather smart.
Michael: Yes.
Grace: They’re very sharp. Just in two very different ways, and I feel like this chapter – if anything – brings up that… I think it does bring up that they’re compatible, but I feel like the only way that they would be compatible in that sense is if Ron [weren’t] there because Ron acts as a great foil to Hermione.
Alison: I agree with that.
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: Absolutely.
Grace: I think the only way that she would ever end up with Harry is if Ron [were]… I hate to say it but dead. And I don’t hope for it, but I’m just saying.
Michael: No. [laughs]
Grace: That’s probably the only way that would end up going down, and it would work. It would work between them because they say that you really do marry your best friend, and I feel that those two are best friends, but I feel like… I really don’t have too much of an opinion on that Harry-Hermione, Harry-Ron shipping… er “Harry-Ron,” right, haha. Hermione and Ron…
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: Though that is a ship.
Michael: Whole different subject. For all of your Harry-Ron needs, please visit MuggleNet Fan Fiction.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: You will find plenty there. Moving on from that very interesting suggestion, we go to a comment from Celestina Is My Homegirl. I really do love that username. [laughs]
Caleb: I love how the “my homegirl” is proliferating to other characters. Fully supportive of it. [laughs]
Michael: And this was over from the main site, and Celestina said,
“I was thinking about charms and how some of them seem pointless, and I’ve always thought of those kinds of charms as training for other, more difficult charms. In this case, they’re learning to conjure and make objects move on a very small scale, which could help them as they progress to N.E.W.T. level. It’s kind of like how in preschool and kindergarten there were certain patterns we had to draw all the time (zigzags, waves, spirals, etc.), and while we don’t really need these patterns into adulthood, they help teach and develop handwriting.”
And interestingly, not attached to this comment but a similar thought from SpectacularlyHypothetical, also from the main site, was
“Is the point of making teacups walk to teach more general skills about Charms? It’s just unlike, say, Defense Against the Dark Arts, Potions and Herbology; I find charms very hit and miss in terms of what is being taught.”
And of course all of this conversation is in reference to last week’s discussion about how Harry, Ron, and Hermione are learning to put legs on a teacup and…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: We couldn’t really find much of a larger practical reason to be doing this all the way along in fifth year.
Grace: Especially if they’re minutely suicidal.
Michael: Yes, yes, and we did discuss how the teacups do try [to] jump off the table once they get…
Grace: They do not want to live.
[Alison laughs]
Grace: They have nothing left.
Alison: They [unintelligible] their tea.
Michael: But I did like this idea, perhaps, that maybe it’s building up to something. These are just basic skills, but at the same time, we’re in fifth year now and..
Caleb: That was my thought. You shouldn’t be doing fundamental things in fifth year.
Michael: Yeah, right? Because we’re getting to… I mean, at that point we’re just a few weeks away from OWLs as we’ll see in this chapter, and that seems a little late to be doing things like putting legs on teacups. [laughs]
Caleb: I do agree that it seems like, more than any other class, Charms is rather hit or miss.
Michael: Yeah, there’s… versus, as SpectacularlyHypothetical mentioned, Defense Against the Dark Arts, Potions, and Herbology where those skills seem to be more definitively defined per year, so…
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael: But actually we had a follow up comment from BlameitontheNargles over on the main site that I liked that tied into this, which said,
“I know it’s a movie-ism, but Slughorn’s speech in the Half-Blood Prince [film] is one of my favorites. The idea of beautiful, simple magic… It’s one of the things I pull into my regular life. Charms to me are what a butterfly landing on your finger is[;] it’s the whimsy of magic.”
Caleb: That’s quite nice. I like that.
Alison: It is. It’s almost like Charms is the humanities of magic.
Grace: It’s very artful. It’s very romantic.
Michael: Charms is the humanities.
Caleb: Despite my last comment, Charms is certainly the class I would enjoy the most…
[Grace laughs]
Caleb: … if I got to go to Hogwarts, for, I agree, these reasons.
Michael: Yeah, because as we discussed last week, Charms is more of the fluffy side of magic. But I really like that time because I can’t think of an instance just off the top of my head, perhaps, where there’s something so comparable in its use of charms as there is in that speech that Slughorn discusses in the movie. For those of you who have forgotten, it is a reference to Lily making him a flower that turns into a fish as a gift, which is probably one of the more positively lauded added-in scenes in any of the films. I’m not thinking of… there’s no instance I can think of off the top of my head where a scene of Charms like that happened in the book. I don’t know if anybody remembers any better particularly effect given that same way.
Alison: All I can think of is the Weasley twins seem to use a lot of charms in all of their things. That seems to be their forté, is that flashy, showy, fun magic.
Michael: Well, there you go. So if we didn’t have charms, we wouldn’t have Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes.
Allison: And the world would be a worse place.
Michael: [laughs] It would.
Grace: It would be a terrible place.
Michael: [laughs] And our last comment here actually comes from MinervaLupin over on the forums and is more in relation to the main focus of the chapter, which was Grawp. And before I read the comment, I should preface it by saying that I chose the comment not only because it pretty much encompasses how people feel about this chapter, but [also because] in the Podcast Question of the Week, which we’ll be moving on to soon, we’re going to get the responses [that] generally seem to defend the inclusion of the chapter a little more. But I thought MinervaLupin summed up what my personal problems with the chapter are and I think what a lot of people had take[n] issue with the Grawp chapter, and MinervaLupin said,
“[Grawp] does not seem to be of any use, aside from giving the trio added work on top of all of their other responsibilities and causing Hagrid so much grief. He just seems to be a filler in this chapter because JK just did not like writing Quidditch matches. We have better examples of how and why family is important to the characters, [so] Grawp is not needed at all for this purpose. Even the part with taking Umbridge to Grawp in the guise of the ‘secret weapon’ was only part of [the] movie canon; [i]n the book, Hermione was just leading them all in the forest in the hopes of meeting the centaurs. Grawp just happened upon this ‘happy’ meeting and went chasing after the centaurs after they attacked and hurt him. Totally useless and unnecessary in my opinion. Just like this chapter would have been better without Grawp and replaced by a Quidditch match or more antagonizing of Umbridge, the scene to come in the forest would have been better had he not been there at all. The interaction between the centaurs and Umbridge was and would have been brilliant enough for that chapter to stand out without Grawp ruining it. It just really felt like JK was trying to recreate another Buckbeak in this giant, but [she] totally and utterly missed the mark. I so would have preferred seeing a Quidditch match hands down than ever having met Grawp.”
So that [lay] it on think.
Grace: Them’s fightin’ words.
Michael: But I did also want to make sure [to] get your guy’s opinions, too, of course, since none of you of [was] on last week’s episode. And I thought it would at least ve good to get a quick opinion from each of you of how you all feel about the Grawp chapter.
Caleb: Yeah, I mean, I never had this problem where I thought this chapter was pointless. I always appreciated the Grawp storyline subplot, even though it isn’t obviously very significant. I think it’s a bridge to the giants coming in later, even if it is just for the battle. I think it shows a lot of Hagrid. It’s him going on this more troubled path through the series that’s continuing with this. Dumbledore is not here. He’s being beat up all this time. He’s trying to pull his family together, but he’s not succeeding. I think it’s important that Harry… I think there’s a reason that Harry doesn’t watch the match where Ron wins the Quidditch Cup for the House because I think that would be a lot on Harry, and I don’t know how he would have handled that because of not being able to play, and Gryffindor finally wins the cup. And also running into the centaurs in the forest and reinforcing that tension, I think there'[re] a lot of things here that, while not as substantial, I definitely never had a problem with it.
Grace: I thought that Grawp was necessary, but for a different reason. I think that it was [more] to develop Hagrid. Because I think Hagrid sees within the trio, not necessarily people [whom] he needs to be a parent to, but rather a group of friends. Because technically, given their age gaps and exactly how Harry was brought into the magic world, he really should be more of a parent figure, but seeing situations like these where he’s really depending on the trio, it puts Hagrid in much more of a friendship situation. So Hagrid, yes, is someone [whom] they can depend on, but not as a leader figure, [more] as someone to support them just as they support him in his decisions. So I think it’s just reinforcing the fact that [laughs] Hagrid is just irresponsible. But on the same token, it also shows Hagrid as being somewhat stunted in his growth into becoming an adult. Because he’s sort of stuck in this… He got kicked out in third year, right?
Michael: I believe so, yes.
Grace: I feel like he’s sort of stunted in that he can’t move past that. So he’s just sort of stayed in this strange mindset, and now he has a group of friends [who] are way younger than he is and at kind of the same teenage place as he was.
Michael: So well… and we’ve talked about this in the past, too, where this book is really the defining book for deconstructing the adult characters and taking a lot of them off of their pedestals. So perhaps Hagrid is joining that pantheon as well.
Grace: Hagrid just got kicked off a pedestal, man.
Michael: Yep. [laughs]
Grace: That’s gotta hurt.
Michael: How about you, Alison?
Alison: Well, we can get into a little more about Hagrid as we get into the answers to the Podcast Question of the Week, but I think the thing I appreciate the most about the Grawp chapter is Hermione’s reaction to it. Of course, I adore her. [laughs] But I…
Grace: It’s hard not to.
Alison: I know. I think this is one of the first times we really see Hermione just lose it completely. And it’s just so developmental for her character that she’s put up with so much, and she’s kept calm through so much, but this is finally the final straw at this point in this year, where she just breaks loose and can’t handle it anymore. And I think it’s a very interesting development to her. It leads to things that will happen later, the way… And it shows us just how strong of a person she is, that she can put up with so much, but finally, she’s going to reach this point. There’s going to be a point where she is going to break down. And that almost leads into Deathly Hallows, where she puts up with so much until Ron leaves. And then she breaks down a little bit again.
Michael: Well, and if you listeners enjoy watching Hermione break down, you’ll get plenty of that in this upcoming chapter that we’re going to discuss this week.
[Alison, Grace, and Michael laugh]
Michael: But before we get to that, I did want to wrap up the comments section with some shoutouts. Again, there were so many great points this week that I couldn’t include. But I stuck you all in by your screen names and the things you were talking about because there were so many of you who contributed. I want to shout it out to Hermono, thegiantqquid, and Waffles for having a great discussion about the Marauders timeline and a few issues with it; SlytherinKnight, UmbridgeRage, SpinnersEnd, and ChocolateFrogRavenclaw for discussing James’s sacrifice; QuibbleQuaffle for discussing Tonks’s Auror qualifications as well as issues with Lily’s portrayal; AccioPotassium! for starting a topic on whether the teacups are alive and getting very detailed about the living situation for teacups with legs; Hufflepuffskein for discussing sympathy for Snape; Olivia Underwood for defending some atypical Slytherins; SeekerHolly for defending Grawp’s storyline; RoseLumos for discussing differing skill sets at Hogwarts; and finally, DisKid and looney_lauren, who both separately ended up discussing animal rights in magic. And there were so many more fantastic points that were brought up over on the Alohomora! main site. The discussion is going way far back, not just to last week’s discussion but even farther back with all the stuff in Order of the Phoenix, so make sure [to] visit the main site and participate in the discussion.
Alison: All right, and now we are going move on to the responses to our Podcast Question of the Week last week. And the question was, “This chapter is a difficult one to discuss. As we’ve all stated, it’s a tiny bit pluckable. The actual new information here is kind of unnecessary, but there are so many links into the other books! Looking at the explorations of Hermione’s character, the twins, Umbridge’s fears, and even Harry and Cho’s relationship, is there a point to this chapter hidden between the lines?” We got a lot of great responses. I wanted to put pretty much everything in here but picked a couple. WizardorWhat was talking about how Chapter 30 lays six bits of groundwork needed to make Chapter 32 make sense.
“Firstly, the chapter recaps that Fred and George have left so that they can’t assist him later. Secondly, it removes Harry’s [F]irebolt as an option. Thirdly, we first encounter Lee Jordan’s ‘[N]iffler in the office’ practical joke, which will eventually lead to Umbridge upping security and catching Harry in her fireplace. Fourthly, we see the beginnings of Hagrid being sacked, which will also lead to Prof. McGonagall being removed from the picture, removing them as viable options to go to when Harry later needs help. Fifthly, we’re reminded that Harry’s still no good at [O]cclumency and doesn’t seem to be getting any more lessons. But for this, perhaps Harry wouldn’t have had the dream at all. Sixthly, we meet Grawp, who later saves Harry and Hermione, enabling them to escape the centaurs so that they can get to London. Grawp wouldn’t have done this if he didn’t get to know Harry and Hermione in this chapter. We are also reminded about the hostility of the centaurs.”
I just think this brings up some really great points. It’s very much reminding us of what has happened to this point and setting us up for what happens afterward. What do you guys think?
Michael: I guess my problems not only come from the connections from chapter and how loose they are to me, but also my problems stem more possibly from the writing of the chapters because I find the whole thing boring. But what’s interesting with WizardorWhat’s point is that Chapter 30 lays the groundwork for Chapter 32. It’s laying the groundwork for something that happens two chapters later. And I guess that’s what really gets me, just seeing that mapped out. Maybe I’m spoiled. I’d say I am by Rowling, that she sets things up so…
Grace: I think we’re all spoiled.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Yeah. Well, that she sets things up so early and that the payoff is so rich because it comes so far down the line, but here, like WizardorWhat is saying, we get all this set up two chapters before almost all of it pays off.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Which is unusual, I think, generally, for the Harry Potter series.
Grace: And also, it’s sort of presenting exactly how the wizarding world perceives things that aren’t wizards, basically. So it did a great job portraying wizards in exactly the way that they are, next to other stuff, if you will. I guess that puts it in a very low standard, but yeah, they either get extremely scared of it in the case with… actually, in the case of both of them – centaurs and giants – or just generally thinking that they are below wizarding level, as with the centaurs, or with the goblins even.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, we’re definitely getting, especially when it comes to the centaurs, a more detailed idea of how their culture works, which we haven’t really had before. Which is important and integral, not just to this book but [also to] future books. I think it makes its peak of importance here, but it is relevant to the other books. Again, though, just to have this realization – thank you, WizardorWhat – that all of this comes back at us merely two chapters later is like, “Oh, well, it’s all set up, and it’s all paid off.” Again… and I’ve been thinking about this, too, but I almost feel this is why Order of the Phoenix is a difficult book for me. Because for me, personally, the story started about halfway through. The truly engaging part of the story started halfway through for me.
Alison: I think that’s true, but I think there’s a lot that has to be set up to get to this engaging part part of the story. It’s just one of those books.
Michael: I guess I just moved Grawp closer to the beginning of the book.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Grace: A lot of the book, I feel, is just like, “Harry is having feelings.”
[Alison laughs]
Grace: “Now he’s angrier.”
[Michael laughs]
Grace: And in conjunction, Voldemort is just having feelings too.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: All right, well… Sorry, I am going to say this name wrong.
[Grace laughs]
Alison: Efthymia also adds a few more things that add to the value of this chapter, and they say,
“I don’t find the chapter pluckable at all, for 3 reasons: 1. The general ‘rebellion’ against Umbridge happening at Hogwarts – I find it to be one of the greatest and most satisfying things in the entire series … McGonagall telling Peeves. ‘It unscrews the other way’… that alone would make the chapter worth it. 2. The trek in the forest is useful in that it provides a way to escape Umbridge later. Maybe we’re not meant to focus on or expect much of Grawp anyway; he just serves as an excuse to see the centaurs and how they feel about humans/wizard folk. 3. It includes Ron’s triumph, which is always a good thing in my book. I hate that Ron has these self-esteem issues, and I believe that when he’s happy and feeling good about himself he can be an amazing person.”
Michael: Fair enough, Efthymia, but your last two points – the trek in the forest and that Grawp is just a throwaway
Alison: Yeah. I do agree, though, that having McGonagall telling Peeves it unscrews the other way is a pretty great moment.
Caleb: It is pretty great.
Grace: Pretty awesome.
Caleb: I still just think that if we would’ve seen the Quidditch match, then so much of the rest of the book would have been Harry dealing with jealousy at they finally win the Cup and he wasn’t part of it.
Alison: I’ve never thought about that point, but I think you’re right.
Michael: You’re probably right.
Caleb: Personally, I don’t want to read about that.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Grace: More Harry angst.
[Caleb laughs]
Michael: Well, and we’ll see in future, Harry misses other big matches, but I think you’re right, Caleb, in that, since Harry is dealing with Voldemort getting in his head at this point, that could definitely affect his attitude toward Ron winning.
Caleb: Or on the flip side, to be fair, it could have been a moment where Harry reflected on how Ron reacted to him in Goblet of Fire and been a bigger person and grown from it, so…
Michael: And his heart grew three sizes and kicked Voldemort out of his head, right?
[Alison and Grace laugh]
Caleb: Yeah, but we know Harry is not about [unintelligible] that now, so…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: All right, well we’ve got a few more ideas coming in. Hufflepuffskein was talking about circle theory.
Michael: Ooh!
Alison: And they said,
“So Book 5 is linked to Book 3 in the ring and thinking to Hagrid in Book 3 … he’s got Buckbeak! …If the trio did not know about Buckbeak or Grawp and didn’t happen to be around them at specific times, the major events at the end of the books would not unfold as they do. Buckbeak’s beheading is the catalyst to find[ing] Scabbers in Hagrid’s hut and sets in motion the Whomping Willow and Shrieking Shack plot. Hermione, knowing about Grawp (and the centaurs, although her motivation about which she is meaning to encounter with Umbridge is unclear to me) and heading into the forest after being captured in Umbridge’s office, is the catalyst for the group to flee Hogwarts to the Ministry of Magic. Hagrid’s buddies are the jumping[-]off point for [the] big events at the end of each book.”
I think this is fascinating.
Caleb: Good connection.
Michael: That’s a really good link. In a way, this is one of the very few times you will hear me defend the Order of the Phoenix film; this is one of the things it does better than the book, and the movie suggests that Hermione is purposefully leading Umbridge to Grawp. That is what the book should have done.
[Caleb and Michael laugh]
Grace: Absolutely.
Alison: That’s how I’ve always felt, like the book does do it, but maybe I was just being influenced by the movie. I’ve always felt like that was her goal.
Michael: Oh, because in the book, she leads them just in the forest aimlessly, and after a while, Harry is like, “Where are we going?” And she goes, “I have no idea!” [laughs] And they just keep walking.
[Grace laughs]
Alison: That is very true.
Michael: But I think if that had been changed in the book, if that had been Hermione’s intention, this circle theory linkup would make even more sense. Because I do think that’s totally there, but if that had been Hermione’s intention, to make Grawp get rid of Umbridge, that would have made the link a lot stronger.
Alison: That’s true. All right, and our next comment is from Olivia Underwood, who said,
“For me this chapter is like a false alarm, which is why people hate it because it’s frustrating. The thing is, I think this is done deliberately. When I read it the first time the build up [sic] to meeting Grawp felt very nebulous and actually a little scary because I felt that Harry and Hermione for some reason were entering a trap… At this point there are less than ten chapters left, so you would expect some sort of plot development … It feels static, passive and puzzling…Jo is biding her time and setting up this sense of false anticipation so that when the real escalation starts two chapters later, we hardly notice, and more importantly, [we] don’t anticipate it.”
You guys agree with this one?
Grace: That one, actually, I think I do in a sense. I mean, because I… [laughs] When I’m not reading the Harry Potter books, or rereading them, rather, I’m usually reading just probably crappy mystery novels or just… I call them “literary French fries” in that you read one, you’ve got to read, like, 50, so…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Grace: You can’t stop once you’ve had one, so I read a lot of those, and I don’t know. They tend to be written so quickly, and the characters are fairly flat in that you can pretty much predict what’s going to happen in the end, so there'[re] a bunch of false bad guys [who] approach you in the middle of these novels, and I feel like this might be one of those false bad guy situations just done a bit better than a literary French fry would have done.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Grace: Even though it’s a chapter that we hate, it still leads us to something else that’s near to the end of the book, and it still connects back in the ending book too, but…
Michael: Yeah. I like it. I definitely could see that, where it is this brief moment where you think the story is going to kick it into gear, but that’s actually not going to happen – once again – for another two chapters. So I do like that idea that perhaps, on Rowling’s part, that is intentional. And again, I just still find it frustrating because linking WizardorWhat’s comment to Olivia Underwood’s, the fact that that buildup is so quickly paid off, again, is just very unusual to me for Rowling’s writing style compared to what we’ve seen before. And I know that Order of the Phoenix is really, I think, the first… Sure, the end of Goblet of Fire shakes things up a lot, but I think Order of the Phoenix, as a whole, is the book that shakes up the foundation of what we expect from the Harry Potter series, and the Grawp chapter, as a whole chapter, really is one of those major points that just throws our usual understanding of the Harry Potter universe out of the window. Maybe that is the intention, though, is that since we’re so used to going into the forest and encountering something horrible and exciting, and then we get Grawp. [laughs]
Grace: Yeah.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Maybe that is just to… maybe Rowling just knew her audience really well by that point.
Alison: I think it’s an interesting thing to say that it’s building up to everything.
Michael: Mhm.
Alison: Because it kind of is, it’s… we see how much stress this has put on Harry and Hermione and later Ron, and how much they’ve already gone through in this book, that when things happen in this upcoming chapter, and everything starts kicking off, there’s no wonder Harry has got a bomb ticking and he’s ready to jump in and do crazy things. I mean he’s got so much…
Grace: Harry is a ticking time bomb.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: Yeah.
Grace: Hate to say it, too. It’s really true. [laughs]
Alison: [laughs] He very much is, indeed.
Grace: It’s like the more that I read of this book and hear about it, it’s like the more clues that I’m finding that I completely just went right over.
Michael: Mhm. Oh, absolutely.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: That’s what this…
Grace: Even when you’re suspecting it. Even then, you still miss them.
Michael: Yeah, that’s what this…
Alison: It’s true.
Michael: That’s what this reread in particular is all about.
Alison: Well, our final…
Grace: Mhm.
Alison: … comment is from SeekerHolly, who says,
“Let’s be honest, if JKR had cut any of this info, we would all be begging for her to publish it on Pottermore anyway.”
Michael: Truth.
Alison: Which is…
Michael: Absolute.
Alison: … completely true. [laughs]
Michael: Oh, yeah. Now, if it wasn’t there – and there was some hint of it – we’d still want it. [laughs]
Grace: There’d be a lot of sassing.
Michael: Yes.
Alison: Oh, yes.
Michael: Although…
Grace: Lot of sassiness from the fans.
Michael: Sometimes I just wonder if this wouldn’t have been better served if it had been on Pottermore…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: … and not in the book.
Grace: Actually, I would have liked to know more about Umbridge in this book rather than know about Grawp.
[Michael and Grace laugh]
Michael: Import that wonderful Umbridge piece we got on Pottermore.
Grace: Yeah.
Alison: Fabulous.
Michael: Swap it out. I’d almost… the thing I’d be looking forward more to on Pottermore, that I feel would expand upon the Grawp inclusion would be to see if, maybe at some point, she does add more about the giants, and really what was…
Grace: Yes.
Michael: … going on with them. Because this is a taste of that, and then it goes nowhere. So I would love to think that maybe she’s got a whole big story about that in the background, that we’ll see on Pottermore. And since we know she’s listening…
Caleb: She is, indeed.
Alison: Uh-huh, of course.
Michael: [laughs] We look forward to it, Ms. Rowling.
Grace: I really want to know what Voldemort promised the giants in return for them siding with him. That’s what I want to… yeah.
Michael: All right. Well, we’re waiting. [laughs]
Grace: I know!
Caleb: All right. Well, we are going to move into this week’s chapter discussion.
[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 31 intro begins]
Hagrid: Chapter 31.
[Sound of a door opening]
Hagrid: “O.W.L.s.”
Several voices: Stupefy!
[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 31 intro ends]
Caleb: All right. Well, this chapter, I think we can agree, has a lot more substance than the previous one, however we may feel.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: So we start off with the aftermath of the Quidditch match and Harry and Hermione meeting Grawp. Ron is very high off of his victory but the other two bring him down with the news of Grawp. Everyone is very quickly going crazy over OWL prep as the exams near. On those exams, Harry actually manages pretty well except for a couple such as Divination and History of Magic where things go horribly wrong.
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: But he does excel in Defense Against the Dark Arts, no surprise there, and but it’s the Astronomy and History of Magic Exams that create the most craziness in this chapter, and some things go down over at Hagrid’s hut. Before we get to the points that had I brought up I know that Grace you had pointed out some things so we can quickly talk about those since they sort of link the two chapters together and the first one you brought up about Ron’s shining moment.
Grace: Oh, yeah. Well, I noticed that Ron is super proud of himself. For once he’s done something that’s really right and everyone is supporting him about it, he’s kind of the celebrity among the three for once instead of Harry. And it got me to thinking, when I was reading through this book again, I couldn’t help but notice exactly how unsupportive the twins were of Ron. And they tend to get down on him a whole lot. [laughs]
Michael: Well …
Grace: I feel like he needs the support of his family, and I’m sure that he gets it in a certain sense, but having some, pretty much, ball-busting brothers all the time…
[Caleb laughs]
Grace: That’s got to really get to you.
Caleb: I think we’ve talked about this to some degree in the past, like drawing comparisons between Ron and Percy in some ways and how Ron is an outcast between a lot of his siblings and this kind of a thing plays into that.
Grace: Yeah, definitely.
Michael: Plus we have, you know, bringing that up, Grace, for Fred and George might be, the sad thing is Hermione mentions before the match that maybe Ron will do better because Fred and George weren’t there. And he does. [laughs]
Grace: He affirms it.
Michael: You know …
Grace: Ah, it’s so…
Michael: We love Fred and George, we love them very, very much. But as far as their relationship with Ron goes, it’s quite antagonistic, and as you said, Caleb, it almost mirrors Fred and George’s relationship with Percy, to some degree. I think in a way it’s even the… it’s potentially more damaging to Ron when we consider what he sees when he looks into the Mirror of Erised and the way he talks about his family around Harry and how he’s always, kind of, the hand me down kid.
Grace: Now that’s super sad. Oh, and the second thing that I picked up on with their conversation by the lake was that Hermione, she… Even though she really, really dreads having to teach Grawp English, she’s still is intending on doing it. And while Ron is telling her to, kind of, giving it up and Harry is very conveniently saying nothing…
[Grace and Michael laughs]
Grace: … Hermione seems to take loyalty to Hagrid and I like that idea because Hagrid really was the only one that stood by her in Prisoner of Azkaban when Ron was just off being all sassy and being a diva about Scabbers.
Michael: [laughs] Yeah.
Caleb: Hermione and Hagrid have a very interesting relationship and, I think we’ve talked about it in the past how Hagrid a lot of the time is just very destructive and particularly with his relationship with Harry. I mean, there are certainly redeeming qualities about that relationship, we don’t have to go ad museum into that. But Hagrid and Hermione’s relationship is very interesting because, like you mentioned, here and how Hermione is the only one that really sticks to Hagrid, trying to appeal for Buckbeak. It’s really interesting.
Grace: Poor Hermione.
Michael: Yeah, the thing… What I like actually about that relationship too is, especially in Prisoner, I think the thing that’s surprising about it, is that we find put that that kind of strong friendship between Hermione and Hagrid is happening off-screen because it’s totally… It’s news to Harry and Ron that she’s been visiting him all the time because she’s so upset. So yeah, I do think that is really neat that Hermione is so intent in making this happen. Although, interestingly, this is – I believe – one promise they don’t follow through on because the OWLs pretty much take up their lives and they don’t go to see Grawp. So…
[Grace and Michael laughs]
Michael: … they fail but…
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: … but good intentions all around.
[Grace laughs]
Michael: Promises were made. Not kept, but good intentions.
[Grace and Michael laughs]
Caleb: Speaking of OWLs, that is the whole subject of this chapter and we being with OWLs prep. And we get to see some of the more amusing things about the exam prep. We get to see Ernie go crazy on people, asking how long…
Alison: Oh, gosh.
Caleb: … they’re studying each day…
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: … and really on some Hermione level studying intensity.
Grace: Oh my God!
Caleb: It’s…
Grace: Is anyone else reminded of National Honor Society?
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: I’m reminded of people that I’m in to law school with, so…
[Grace make gagging noise]
Caleb: … that’s what this reminds me of.
Alison: It…
Caleb: And I just left like the test anxiety…
Alison: Oh, gosh.
Caleb: … just lifted off the paper as I read this.
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: It’s incredible.
Alison: It still makes me sick. I’m not a test taking person. I mean, let me apply a concept, let me write a paper any day but make me sit there and take a test for hours at a time and I will scream and crawl walls.
Caleb: Yeah.
Alison: So, even just…
Caleb: I agree.
Alison: … thinking about, “I’ve been sitting there studying for eight hours,” just makes me want to curl up and never go to school ever again, because it sounds miserable.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Yeah, this is that element of Hogwarts that I think definitely the movies missed completely, which is why it doesn’t really feel so much like a school.
[Alison and Caleb laugh]
Caleb: Yeah, an actual school. Thanks, movies.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: This is that bit where really the books are always the definitive place to go to because it’s so excellently written here that no matter how much magic you can do or how much amazing capacities you may have in the magical world, studying still sucks. [laughs]
Caleb: Right.
Michael: … and you may go crazy like Ernie MacMillan and be studying for eight hours a day lying flat on the floor reciting the…
[Alison laughs]
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: It’s still an insane part of a wizard’s world.
Grace: And you can only imagine how frustrating it’s got to be to study something that doesn’t exactly adhere to logic.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: None that we can define anyway.
Alison: Yeah.
Grace: Mhm. Or science!
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Caleb: Another interesting thing I picked up on is how Draco tries to boast that he’s going to get some sort of favoritism from Griselda Marchbanks because she’s been over to dinner before at the Malfoy Manor…
Grace: Ugh.
Caleb: … but then shortly after, Neville tells us that Griselda is actually friends with his Gran, which definitely creates an interesting conflict because I don’t think Malfoy would lie about that. I don’t think he has a reason to lie, he would just find another way to boast. And given the way she is and when we meet her, I doesn’t seem like she would be a guest at the Malfoy’s, so I’m just really wondering, what’s going on here?
Michael: Hmm.
Grace: Maybe they conned her into getting over there or something, I don’t know.
Alison: Probably.
Caleb: Maybe so.
Michael: That would make sense…
Grace: My father has so much power.
Michael: Well, yeah. Because if she does go to the Malfoys, it’s probably out of niceties because they both work at the Ministry.
Caleb: Maybe.
Alison: Maybe Malfoy…
Grace: Coupled with the fact that he has an albino peacock.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: [unintelligible] of the show.
Alison: Maybe Malfoy…
Grace: Did you order that in?
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: Maybe Malfoy…
Michael: I do like the…
Alison: … donated to some education fund and they had a party to celebrate and…
Alison: … Draco’s probably not telling the whole story, because he’s Draco.
Michael: Well, because…and Malfoy used to be on the school board.
Caleb: He was governor, yeah.
Michael: Yeah, so that would probably be where the connection is, too.
Caleb: That’s true.
Michael: So Malfoy is probably talking up a connection that no longer exists anymore since his dad’s not on the school board anymore.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: There you go.
Alison: You’re absolutely right.
Caleb: And we’ll see how well it goes in just a few pages for him when he’s taking his test…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Caleb: … but Marchbanks and the other testing administrators show up, and I found the physical description really interesting. There’s a clear distinction between she and Umbridge. She’s a much a smaller woman, and then that physical contrast is immediately followed by the topic of Dumbledore, and she brings up how she hasn’t seen or heard from Dumbledore and Umbridge is confident that he’ll be found, but of course, she does not buy into that. It is obviously since Marchbanks is coming from the Ministry we know it is a big topic there and it is good to hear that someone of her caliber is still supportive of Dumbledore and it is not just the Ministry has completely gone nutso.
Michael: No, it is great that whether intentionally or not, just like McGonagall does, Griselda totally dominates Umbridge in this very brief moment and takes her down.
Caleb: I think it is more amusing because she doesn’t intend to.
Michael: No.
Caleb: She is very passive.
Michael: I feel like it is not intentional but it makes it even better.
Caleb: Right.
Grace: She just has that old lady attitude of “I am so beyond caring about you right now.”
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Grace: I cannot bring myself to care.
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: Actually, it really makes sense that she and Augusta Longbottom would be friends, then.
Grace: Yes.
Caleb: It totally makes sense.
Grace: That is exactly what I was thinking.
Michael: But then we finally do get to the actual exams. They start off with Charms. Every day they have the theory in the morning and the practical in the afternoon. And Harry’s first question is a question on the Levitation charm and he smiles as he recalls the incident with the troll in Sorcerer’s Stone. So at least we see his experience is helping him in some way and it is a bit of nostalgia for us as a reader. Because when you read this for the first time and you think about how far back Sorcerer’s Stone is it is crazy to think how far the story has come to this point.
Caleb: And that is something I mentioned previously when Umbridge was trying to diss all of the previous Defense Against the Dark Arts teachers and brings up that Quirrell was actually one of the ones who she believes was actually good, and that is one of the first moments in this book where you get such an unusual callback to the earliest books. And there is that nostalgic feeling and for me it is that interesting feeling that in Sorcerer’s Stone and Chamber these crazy things that happen to Harry, these extreme dangerous situations just strike you more as this is just fun, because it is in the magical world and there are no consequences and magic is silly and fun. But then to get that callback from this book where magic is serious and has very big consequences…
Alison: It is for real for real now. Not for play for play.
Michael: It is funny to put in order the things that were happening in Sorcerer’s, Chamber, Prisoner in more of a serious context that Order puts them in. So it is like we are revising our view on the series all of a sudden.
Grace: It’s interesting to get those callbacks because they are so light-hearted. I mean, my personal favorite book is Book 2 and I know no one else likes that book, but I thought the light-hearted tone, if you really do think into it, it really gets heavy quick.
Caleb: Absolutely.
Grace: That first layer of magic, hey this is all fun, is very much just a sheen. Like, below, hey this man is invading your mind. This is wrong.
Michael: Yeah, there’s a man in your mind, there’s blood on the walls…
Grace: I know! Very dark themes.
Michael: [laughs] Absolutely.
Caleb: Speaking of Chamber of Secrets, we get another of those callbacks when Harry takes the written portion for Potions. One of the questions is about Polyjuice Potion, which, obviously, not many students have… well, they would have no experience with it, but Harry, obviously, firsthand.
Grace: Hell, yeah. Go Harry. [laughs]
Caleb: And in some of the practical sides, as alluded to earlier – I think it’s in the Charms practical – we get to see Malfoy fail which is a really amusing moment.
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: Yes.
Caleb: And rather than he get the special treatment, we get a first sight of actually Harry getting recognized by Professor Tofty in the Charms practical. And then later he really shows his adoration for Harry in the Defense Against the Dark Arts practical when he asks for a corporeal Patronus, which really reinforces this idea of how rare it is for wizards and witches to actually be able to produce a full Patronus.
Alison and Michael: Mhm.
Caleb: Because if we have an exam administrator who is fascinated… I mean, I guess you could argue he is fascinated just because a student at that age can do it, but still, we get a lot of hints that it’s not as easy as it seems to be able to do a full Patronus.
Michael: Yeah, I think Pottermore has also retroactively helped with that concept that a Patronus is actually harder to do than we all think it is because we followed Harry learning it in the third year.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: But I love Professor Tofty. Professor Tofty is what Harry has needed throughout this entire book.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: I hear you.
Michael: Somebody who just appreciates Harry for his skills and is congratulating him for them, and that’s all he really needed.
Alison: I have the cutest mental picture of Tofty.
Grace: This was the first time that I realized how hard it was to produce a full Patronus because it really does not occur to you at all.
Michael: Mhm.
Grace: It seems like it’s the easiest thing on earth. Well, not on earth, but you know what I’m talking about.
Michael: Yeah, it’s not… the sheer amount of effort and the magic that is meant to go into it isn’t really… and again, possibly because we follow Harry learning the Patronus Charm, that we are privy to that process, that we don’t feel it really is that hard, but I think… yeah. But this is probably the first moment where it’s like, “Oh, yeah, actually pretty much nobody in the school can do this except you.” So yeah, that’s definitely a reinforcement there.
Alison: I do think it’s interesting on a different note that the happy thought Harry thinks of to create this Patronus is Umbridge being sacked. It seems a little vindictive that this is his happiest thought at the moment to produce a Patronus.
Michael: Yeah. [laughs]
Caleb: Right. I think it may just be in the moment, right? It’s more pronounced for him right now, so it’s more accessible, I guess, for lack of a better word.
Alison: That’s true.
Michael: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
Grace: Mhm. Yeah, I feel like if a Dementor were in the room it just wouldn’t cut it, probably.
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: Another… I really was amused by all the things that could go wrong.
Alison: Oh, God.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Caleb: And my favorite was when Hannah Abbott multiplies a ferret into a flock of flamingoes.
Alison: I love the alliteration.
Caleb: So it just made me think of all of these things going wrong in the middle of the exam. I don’t know how you’d ever focus on yours because… what a circus.
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: Did anyone else think British comedy when they heard all this crazy stuff? I was like, “This sounds very British comedy to me.” It’s very awkward situational. I like that.
Alison: [laughs] I just… this is a shout-out to JKR’s writing, this alliteration of “ferrets into a flock of flamingoes.” I love it. It rolls off the tongue so nicely.
Michael: [laughs] Clearly Professor Flitwick was right when he said if you just change one little letter in a spell, things can go horribly wrong. I mean, nobody at least has a buffalo dropped on their chest.
Alison: Oh, gosh.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: But this is pretty bad.
Caleb: And then the last exam before things start to take a very different turn is the Divination one where Harry does not perform particularly well. Harry tells Griselda Marchbanks that she should have died the previous Tuesday, while Ron accidentally insults his examiner while describing this ugly old man while looking through. So that was not a great move by either of them.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: That’s one of my favorite moments.
Caleb: Not their subject but at least they’ll be done with them.
Alison: One of my favorite moments in this book is their fiasco of Divination. Just… oh, gosh. [laughs]
Michael: But to be quite honest, are there any other students who could have actually done better? [laughs] Because the thing is the exam isn’t with Trelawney, so I’d like to think that… I’d be interested to see how Lavender and Parvati did.
Caleb: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking.
Grace: Yeah. That’s what I was going to say.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Michael: Because… I mean, granted now that they’ve had Firenze for a little bit, that might help to some degree, but at the same time it’s… and we just got more of that on Pottermore with Trelawney’s background, that really Divination isn’t really believed to be that trustworthy of a thing and it’s a very rare gift. So I feel like exams are pretty much just pointless and are just there to prove that nobody needs to go on to the Advanced Divination lessons.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: I wonder if these examiners even care…
Michael: Right? [laughs]
Alison: … because if they truly know anything about Divination, they’re like, “Well, you’re not a Seer, so it doesn’t really matter what you say.”
Grace: Wait, do you guys remember the scene where Trelawney is pulling tarot cards?
Michael: Yes. Yeah, later on.
Alison: Oh, yes.
Grace: Yeah, she keeps pulling out the Tower card. I really do believe that Trelawney might have some sort of a gift but it’s so joking in the books because you’re seeing this from Harry’s point of view so of course you’re not going to take this seriously because Harry doesn’t take it seriously. So it’s really funny to see her half-drunk with sherry, just completely out of it, and pulling tarot cards out of nowhere and just tripping all over herself. But what she was really saying is that something really sudden is going to happen to them, and something bad, so…
Michael: Mhm. Well, the tarot cards is pretty much the one rare instance where Trelawney is not going into a trance and making a prediction…
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: … but that’s not so much a joke, as that is actually something that she’s correct on. But again, she’s not quite aware of it because she’s drunk…
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: … so that might have been how that came about, but…
Grace: She’s so silly, that drunk Trelawney, all the time.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Grace, it looks like you found some somewhat symbolic meanings in what…
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Grace: In a very, very funny statement. And I’ll be honest with you; I didn’t really take this seriously at all – and I still don’t – but I thought it was really fun to look these things up and exactly what they mean because I didn’t think that it would come out with anything. And then when I found it, they actually do come out with something.
Michael: Mhm.
Grace: So I took Harry’s line, which is, “No more pretending that we care what happens when Jupiter and Uranus get too friendly.” Ba-dum, ching.
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: But I looked up Uranus and it is the seventh planet from the sun… magic number seven; we all know about that already, so that’s definitely a reference probably to Voldemort. [laughs] It’s the earliest supreme Grecian god who symbolized the sky…
Michael: Hmm.
Grace: … so I thought that was super interesting because Voldemort is one of the first characters that you learn can fly without the aid of anything…
Alison and Michael: Oh!
Grace: … so that’s another reference to him. Then you get Jupiter, which is the fifth planet from the sun. Now, five is considered a lucky number just because it has a sort of stability, especially in the Japanese culture, after four, which is considered akin to death. And it’s also the Roman god of law, and law is also somewhat like justice, I think…
Michael: Uh-huh.
Alison: Mmm.
Grace: … just my own personal association. So there’s Harry who is bringing justice, being the fifth planet from the sun, and there’s Uranus, which would be Voldemort.
Michael: Wow.
Caleb: Interesting.
Michael: [laughs] Harry gets an A+ on his exam.
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: He just says that to the examiner.
Michael: I like that, though, because we’ve looked before at the laughed-off predictions and statements about the planets and so on and so forth…
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: … and that there is sometimes hidden significance in them and I definitely don’t put it past Rowling to not only make a very funny joke out of her statements, but to also know exactly the symbolism behind the pieces of her joke.
[Alison laughs]
Caleb: All right, one quick thing before we move on to the next exam is that Ron comes out of Divination…
Alison: Oh…
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: … with a line that was the storm of the series for so many people, and he says, “And from now on, I don’t care if my tea leaves spell ‘die, Ron, die’ – I’m just chucking them in the bin where they belong.”
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: Of course all of us recognize it. It’s what led many people to theorize that Ron was in fact going to die in the seventh book.
Grace: Oh, my God. That’s terrible!
Alison: Ugh!
Michael: And as we know now, for quite a time he was at risk.
Caleb: He was.
Michael: So the line had some credence to it. We just didn’t know.
Grace: Actually, I thought that. Not going to lie.
Michael: That Ron was going to die?
Grace: Yeah, he was going to kick it by the end.
Caleb: Yeah, I think a lot of people did.
Alison: Oh, I’m so glad he didn’t.
Caleb: But his Divination skills proved to be not so great here.
[Caleb and Grace laugh]
Michael: Thank goodness for Ron.
Alison: Yes.
Michael: Also worth noting, just as a side note – nothing significant happens with her – but we see Daphne Greengrass go by and that’s Malfoy’s future sister-in-law.
Grace: Oh, yeah.
Caleb: That’s true. Sister-in-law, yep.
Alison: Wait, what?
Caleb: Yeah, he marries Astoria Greengrass and Daphne is her sister.
Alison: Oh, my gosh. I never put that together. Wow.
Caleb and Michael: Yeah.
Caleb: So all the exams so far have been met with minor issues. Things certainly change. They go to the Astronomy practical, which is of course at midnight, late at night, so they can check out the stars. Harry starts to get distracted, like he does…
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: … during his exam and notices dark figures heading toward Hagrid’s hut. He thinks he recognizes one of them but isn’t really sure what’s going on but keeps trying to get back on track to his exam because it’s important.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Caleb: But eventually the commotion begins to get too much to focus on his exam. They head to Hagrid’s hut and they go inside and some shouting ensues shortly after and then the scuffle really breaks out. The people at Hagrid’s hut start shooting Stunners at Hagrid, but being half-giant they don’t knock him out. Hagrid is able to fight them off and he fights back and we see Fang, one of the few times, I feel, take action and actually go after these attackers, but is hit with a Stunner himself, unfortunately, and it’s really sad.
Alison: So sad.
Grace: Poor doggy.
Caleb: Right. And as Grace points out, we see that Dawlish returns to Hogwarts because things went so well for him last time.
Alison: Oh, God.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Grace: I had to.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: He’s so incompetent; how does he still have a job?
Michael: That’s good. I put out the call to keep an eye out for Dawlish screwing up. [laughs]
Grace: Dawlish is amazing. He loses.
Michael: He is amazing in that he keeps going back at it. [laughs]
Grace: He’s the most resilient individual in the Ministry. That man should get an award.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: And this scene escalates so much that pretty much everyone has lost focus from their exam, including Hermione. That’s when you know it’s really bad.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: And soon after, McGonagall runs out from the castle and heads toward Hagrid’s hut, shouting at the people, rebuking them for going after Hagrid like this, and then all of the sudden… this is really hard for me…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Caleb: … but four Stunners are shot at McGonagall directly – almost instantaneously – as soon as she starts yelling at them. And the quote from the book is, “For a moment she looked luminous, illuminated by an eerie red glow, then was lifted right off her feet, landed hard on her back, and moved no more.” Guys, I thought she died here the first time I read it.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Caleb: I was ready to throw the book.
[Alison, Grace, and Michael laugh]
Caleb: I know it’s only Stunners, but four of them…
Alison: Yeah.
Caleb: … for an older woman? That’s a lot.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: I agree, it’s kind of a scary moment because we don’t know.
Grace: I don’t think that my mind was ready to comprehend her being dead, so I really just assumed she was really knocked out. [laughs] Like super knocked out.
Caleb: It all happens so fast. Yeah.
Michael: Yeah. I didn’t think she was dead, but I was upset because I knew she was about to be taken out of the book.
Caleb: Right, yeah.
Grace: Aww.
Michael: Because she’s so needed in the book at this point, and there’s just been… after coming off of the “Grawp” chapter and now we’re getting rid of Hagrid and McGonagall both in one swoop here… [laughs]
Caleb: Right.
Michael: Yeah.
Caleb: And that’s what happens next: Hagrid fights for a few moments and is clearly not happy about what has happened to McGonagall, but he knows he can’t win here, so he picks up Fang and disappears into the forest. So at this point, we have lost Dumbledore, we’ve lost McGonagall, and we’ve lost Hagrid, and… things aren’t really good for Hogwarts right now.
Michael: Oh my God! You know, as horrible as this whole incident is – which it is, and I would have been just as shocked as everybody else who was up there on the tower – I am surprised nobody said this – and I totally would have been this student, and this must be the Hermione in me – I’m surprised she didn’t say it, but I would have been like, “Do we get to retake this test?”
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Oh my gosh, yes.
Grace: Oh, I totally would have.
Michael: “I feel that we should have the right to retake this, because that was a major distraction that took all of our attention away, notably.”
Grace: I know! For like twenty minutes!
Michael: Yeah! “That’s a really substantial damaging thing to my grades, for my OWLs.”
Grace: Uh-huh!
Michael: “What if I wanted to be an astronomer?”
Alison: Hermione was probably done anyway.
Michael: [laughs] That’s true.
Caleb: So there’s a bit of a response to this attack. I’m surprised actually there’s not a bigger response in the fray in the middle of the exams, but all this just happens so fast and they convene in the Gryffindor tower. Everyone is obviously outraged at Umbridge and the others for running off Hagrid and attacking McGonagall. We learn that McGonagall is with Madam Pomfrey, who is trying to treat her. We also learn, as we talked about earlier, Lee Jordan is the one who’s been putting the Nifflers in Umbridge’s office. So thanks, Lee for leading Umbridge towards Hagrid.
Grace: Yeah.
Caleb: But of course, Umbridge – as someone points out – would have found any reason to go after Hagrid. She had it out for him all along.
Michael: Yeah. I do like that…
Grace: Yeah, his days were numbered.
Michael: I do like that for once, Hermione actually calls Harry out on his naïveté and just… [laughs]
[Grace laughs]
Caleb: Right.
Michael: “Come on, Harry, she’s going to use any excuse she can!”
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael: And lo and behold…
Caleb: Let’s get to the grownups table, Harry. Come on.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Caleb: But despite all that has just happened, they still have the History of Magic OWL, which is the last exam of the chapter – for Harry and Ron. And Harry struggles through the answers of course, because they never pay attention in History of Magic.
[Grace and Michael laugh]
Caleb: And Grace, you had noted here that… I thought about it actually and forgot to put it down in there, so why don’t you read that out?
Grace: Oh, yeah. They mention a few things in History class, and I’m thinking History of Magic should be one of those interesting subjects that’s there, and they just kill it. They don’t mention it almost at all, which makes me so sad. But going back to it, they mention the wand legislation and the goblin riots, as well as the breaching of the Statute of Secrecy – I think it was back in 1749. And I’m really hoping that we get more information on the history of magic in the new movie that’s being written, Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them.
Michael: Yeah…
Grace: I know that’s kind of stretching, but I really think she’s just expanding her world here, and I just really want to hear more about that.
Michael: Yeah. Well, the interesting thing about the goblin riots – and I think Pottermore is slowly illuminating this more and more through random posts just like the books do – and more so even in this last set we got through Order. But there’s a lot of mention of the goblin riots and werewolf legislation that apparently strongly informed how the wizarding world currently operates. But it’s never mentioned specifically what happened.
Grace: Yeah, that’s so frustrating.
Michael: Well, because… no, I think it even gets more frustrating when you get to Deathly Hallows, because the goblins are extremely imperative to the plot.
Grace: Yeah.
Michael: And very likely, the goblin riots are a reason for that… and the way that they behave in Deathly Hallows.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: So I think it definitely could come up in Fantastic Beasts because it’s referenced a lot in the Fantastic Beasts book in the foreword. Yeah, that would definitely be interesting to see because it’s been dropped through the book series as a whole quite a few times but never expanded upon.
Grace: Yeah, and the Statute of Secrecy is another aspect of the wizarding culture, which is huge because you have to think of the mindset that they were in when they created this: Muggles were literally threatened by the existence of magic. They were trying to burn witches, and I’m sure not having a centralized school where people can learn how to protect themselves and use the gifts that they have, they were getting burned and possibly hurting themselves more than they were being able to even try to protect anything. So I think the Statute of Secrecy was probably born from some sort of fear that came from that.
Michael: Mhm.
Grace: I want to know about that, I really do.
Michael: [singingly] Pottermore.
Grace: I know! Uhh!
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: Yeah, I definitely think it could come up in Pottermore and we’re on this book, so hopefully so.
Grace: Mhm.
Caleb: But Harry is not interested in the goblin riots or breaching the Statute of Secrecy because once again, because he never succeeded at Occlumency, he fades into another vision in the Department of Mysteries and he gets the farthest that he’s gotten so far. He gets into the Hall of Prophecy, all the way to Row 97, and here we go.
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: He sees a shape on the floor at the end – in this vision he seems to be in the point of view of Voldemort. We figure out that this is Sirius on the floor, and Voldemort uses the Cruciatus Curse on Sirius, who writhes in pain; already he’s badly hurt. It seems like he’s been tortured for a while, and we figure out that in this vision that Voldemort is trying to use Sirius to get the prophecy from him. Well, I shouldn’t say the prophecy; we don’t know what it is at this point. We know because we’ve read it, but get something for him.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: The weapon thing.
Caleb: Yeah, the weapon thing whatever.
Grace: That we don’t know about.
[Michael laughs]
Caleb: So the point is this is the vision Harry sees where he thinks Sirius is in trouble. We’ve already seen him see that Arthur Weasley was legitimately in danger, so here’s the second edition of that, so Harry thinks. And Harry snaps out of the vision, but he does so because he falls out of his desk while yelling. And the Great Hall in the middle of this History of Magic exam erupts around him, and the chapter ends.
Michael: See? Yet another moment where I would wake up and go, “I have somewhere to be, but just to confirm before I go, can I retake this exam?”
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: “Just stop screaming all the sudden. I need to retake this test.”
Caleb: “Will you please be quiet?”
[Michael laughs]
Alison: Yeah, honestly…
Grace: “Because I’m the Chosen One.”
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: When I first read…
Grace: Was anyone else amazed by the fact that Voldemort was that cunning? This is my favorite character, guys. This is my favorite villain and favorite character in the books. He was cunning enough to realize that Harry had somehow infiltrated his mind enough to know that Arthur Weasley was attacked, and instead… I’m sure he got very angry at the time, but he got over that and realized he could use it in reverse and draw Harry in.
Michael: Oh, yeah.
Grace: Oh my God, that is so cunning. That’s so clever.
Michael: The thing I will continue to wonder about with that particular moment is how Voldemort even managed this.
Caleb: Right?
Michael: Because that… how does this even work? How does he imagine such a vivid, perfect re-creation? He must have worked really hard to imagine it so detailed.
Caleb: And then send it to Harry so far away.
Michael: Yeah, that’s…
Grace: This is a master of… it’s Legitimacy, right?
Michael: Yeah, Legilimency, yeah.
Grace: Legilimency, sorry. Yeah, this is a master of Legilimency, so I wouldn’t doubt that he would have the ability to do something like that, especially if he’s so strongly connected to Harry.
Michael: I’m just impressed because of what we’ve heard so far about Legilimency, and maybe it was because Snape was such a horrible teacher – which he was!
[Grace laughs]
Michael: He just didn’t give us the full information on what Legilimency was. There was never the suggestion or the prep that Voldemort was going to create a falsity and put it in Harry’s head. That was never something Harry was warned against.
Alison: Yes.
Grace: Maybe it was something that even Snape didn’t know about. I think that Snape was probably one of the most skilled men at Occlumency…
Michael: Mhm.
Grace: … but I still think that Voldemort was probably better at Legilimency.
Michael: Hmm.
Grace: For some reason he probably just wasn’t expecting Snape as much as he should have been. Which he really should have been, but…
Michael: Yeah.
Grace: … he made some decisions.
[Michael laughs]
Grace: Very good ones, but yeah…
Alison: I’m not going to lie, the first time I read this scene, I panicked.
Michael: Mhm.
Alison: Straight out panicked because it seemed so real. And like you said, we have no indication that this could be fake at all. And even rereading it now, I slightly panicked even knowing it was fake…
[Michael laughs]
Alison: … because it seems so real and Harry believes it to be so real and it’s just…
Caleb: We have no reason to think otherwise.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah.
Grace: He portrays Sirius in a very convincing way.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Grace: And he portrays himself in a way that Harry would see convincing.
Michael: Yeah. Well, even going along with what you guys just said about the believability – and of course we’ll get this more in the next chapter – but even with Hermione’s lingering doubts that maybe it is a false image, with all the pieces put together that we have from this chapter and the next one, I was totally with Harry that I was like, “Oh my God, we’ve got to get there right now!”
Alison: Oh, no doubt.
Michael: “Bad things are happening. We’ve got to save Sirius now!”
Grace: So, well done, Voldemort.
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: Well played.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: So that moves us into our Podcast Question of the Week for this week, and we kind of touched on this but now we want to know what you think. So in this chapter, obviously both Hagrid and McGonagall leave Hogwarts, which of course creates a problem for Harry later when he is looking for a member of the Order that he trusts to confide in about his vision that Voldemort is very good at creating.
[Grace laughs]
Alison: So what would have been different if Hagrid and McGonagall had stayed? Would the events of the end of the book occur, or would Harry in his typical reckless way have run off to the Ministry anyway determined to save Sirius? Or would they have been able to stop him?
Caleb: That’s a good question. I look forward to reading all of your responses.
Grace: Mhm.
Caleb: And we just want to take a moment to thank Grace for joining us for this episode. She joined us last minute, so special thanks for that. You added a lot of great thoughts to the episode.
Grace: Thank you!
Caleb: So, thanks so much.
Grace: I had so much fun. Thanks for having me, you guys.
Michael: Thank you, Grace. You were an absolutely fantastic guest considering you were so last minute. You did a great job.
Grace: I literally reread the chapter on my lunch break and I took notes.
[Everyone laughs]
Grace: That was hilarious.
Michael: That is how you do it.
Grace: Mhm.
Michael: And if you, listeners, any of you would like to be on the show just like Grace, you don’t have to do quite that much pre-prep, but you can if you so desire. You can check out the “Be on the Show” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. If you have a set of headphones, a microphone, and some equipment on your computer to record with, you’re all set. Nothing too fancy required and we’d love to have you come chat with us here on Alohomora!
Alison: And if you just want to get in contact with us any other way, we are on Twitter at @AlohomoraMN, we’re on Facebook at facebook.com/openthedumbledore, [and] Tumblr at mnalohomorapodcast. Our phone number is 206-GO-ALBUS (206-462-5287), or you can send us an audioBoom on alohomora.mugglenet.com. It’s free; all you need is a microphone, but please keep them under 60 seconds so that we can play them on the show.
Michael: And also, don’t forget about our store, the Alohomora! store, where we are now selling sweatshirts, long-sleeve tees, tote bags, and flip-flops, but…
[Alison and Caleb laugh]
Caleb: We don’t need that. If you’re in Texas…
Michael: I was going to say, if you buy them from the store, that’s great, but if you wear them right now, I will be judging you.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Anyway, there are many more products to choose from in the Alohomora! store. We also have ringtones that are free and available on the main Alohomora! website, so make sure [to] check ’em out.
Caleb: Also […] make sure to check out our smartphone app. The app is available just about anywhere on the planet as far as we know. And prices may vary depending on location. It includes great things like transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and much more. And that’s going to do it for this week’s episode of Alohomora!
[Show music begins]
Caleb: I’m Caleb Graves.
Michael: I’m Michael Harle.
Alison: I’m Alison Siggard. Thank you for listening to Episode 109 of Alohomora!
Michael: [as Voldemort] Open the Dumbledore. [laughs evilly]
[Show music continues]
Caleb: Also […] make sure to check out our smartphone app. It’s available… [laughs] who wrote it this way?
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Oh, this is Eric. Eric got tired of saying our old saying.
Caleb: Well, I’m going back to the old way. So…
[Michael laughs]
Grace: Seemingly worldwide.
