Transcript – Episode 108
[Show music begins]
Michael Harle: This is Episode 108 of Alohomora! for November 1, 2014.
[Show music continues]
Michael: Welcome back, listeners, to our global reread of Harry Potter. I’m Michael Harle.
Kat Miller: I’m Kat Miller.
Rosie Morris: I’m Rosie Morris.
Eric Scull: And I’m Eric Scull.
Kat: Wow, a hosts show! We haven’t had one of these in a while.
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: It’s been a long time.
Kat: It’s kind of nice just to… not that I don’t like talking to the listeners. It’s just kind of nice to get all of us – well, almost all of us – here. It’s nice.
Eric: Yeah!
Kat: Such an amazing chapter, too.
Michael: Yes.
Eric: It’s a big one.
Rosie: Eh…
[Eric laughs]
Kat: Yeah. I think Rosie and I are on the same page here. Eh…
Rosie: I have to admit that if there is one chapter in the whole of Harry Potter that I have skipped reading on multiple occasions, this is the one.
Eric: Interesting.
Kat: Ooh.
Rosie: I read up to the point where they go down to the Quidditch match and then I kind of just skip Grawp, which is bad. But I’m just not very interested. [laughs]
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Would you rather it didn’t exist at all?
Rosie: It’s just a bit… why is it there? [laughs] What’s important about it? Not a lot.
Michael: Oh. Oh.
Rosie: Sorry.
Michael: We’ll get to that.
Rosie: We will get to it.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Michael has got plans, everybody.
Michael: Although, I may not be so far from the same page as you guys are about this chapter…
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: Which of course, listeners, is in fact Chapter 30 of Order of the Phoenix titled “Grawp,” which we ask you to please read before journeying further into this episode to get the full experience of the discussion.
Kat: But as usual, before we head into the new chapter, we are going to discuss last week’s chapter which was Chapter 29 of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. Our first comment here from the main site from Casey L. says,
“I don’t think you guys were completely fair about Harry’s Auror qualifications in this episode. It’s not just that he ‘kills Voldemort using Expelliarmus.’ He appears to consistently be one of the top students in his year at DADA (if not the best), he fights off Voldemort four times during his Hogwarts years (five if you count his encounter in this book), this year he is TEACHING other students defensive spells as part of Dumbledore’s Army, and as we see time and time again, he is not an unintelligent student by any means. (See the moment in ‘Deathly Hallows’, where he realizes he needs to talk to someone who’s dead to learn about Ravenclaw’s diadem as just one example.) Even if he had gone the ‘traditional route’ and gotten his NEWTs, graduated and gone through the extra three years of training, I think Harry had what it took to successfully become an Auror.”
So this stemmed from a discussion we had last week about – since the last chapter was “Career Advice” – how Harry actually did become an Auror. Because we know he didn’t go back to Hogwarts, and did he basically just say on his form, “Defeated the Dark Lord” and they…
Eric: Let him in.
Kat: Yeah, pretty much. What do you guys think?
Michael: Hmm… I go back because this discussion really comes, I think, from the part in the last chapter where McGonagall summarizes exactly what is needed to be an Auror. And my, is that a lot of things that Harry is not particularly good at!
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Yes.
Michael: And she even points out where his grades need to pick up. And we know that Harry actually kind of rises to that challenge in Half-Blood in some classes – not from his own talent…
Eric: Mmm…
Michael: [laughs] Which to me I guess somebody could argue that, “Oh yeah, Harry uses his resources with the Half-Blood Prince’s book.” Yeah, he steals from that, but if you asked him to make a potion confidently on his own, could he do it?
Rosie: He’d just go and grab a bezoar.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Yeah.
Michael: For everything.
Kat: I mean, he might have actually learned some real tips that he’s going to remember from that book.
Rosie: Maybe.
Michael: Oh, yeah.
Rosie: But he’s not got that kind of natural flair.
Kat: No, not at all.
Rosie: But then, do you really need everything that McGonagall listed to be a confident Auror?
Eric: I feel like… yeah.
Rosie: I mean, we know that Tonks is an Auror and she’s definitely not particularly skilled in some areas that she probably needs to be.
Eric: Mmm… yeah. But she’s kind of the underdog, right? There can’t be two of her at any one time.
[Rosie laughs]
Eric: Although I guess there wouldn’t need to be.
Kat: I feel like she passed on the Metamorphmagus stuff…
Rosie: Yeah.
Kat: … alone.
Michael: I think that probably boosted her score a lot with them.
Kat: Yeah.
Michael: Because that’s a really… since that’s such a rare genetic gift, they probably want that on their side.
Rosie: But in that case, then Harry’s DADA skills can boost that side of his résumé.
Michael: Maybe.
Rosie: He is very good at it; he does teach other students… he’s got the leadership skills and the fighting skills to be able to look after himself and others.
Eric: I think it’s worth actually asking at the end of Book 7 when we get there: is Harry a competent wizard? We said this last week and this is what this user – sorry, this listener – has written and said: “Oh yeah, we said he killed Voldemort using Expelliarmus.” Well, he does.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: There’s no beating around the bush here. I believe strongly that in the end the only reason that Harry did defeat Voldemort was an inside advantage.
Kat: Mhm.
Eric: And it’s not an advantage that he is likely to share with any other Dark wizard he ever encounters.
Michael: Hermione!
Eric: Oh, and friends.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Friends help, too… a lot.
Kat: Right.
Rosie: But he is also very capable.
Eric: He is.
Rosie: He did manage to get his coporeal Patronus in third year, which is something that you wouldn’t even be able to do by seventh year…
Eric: Yeah, and look at how… I mean, he had great training that one year.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: And he’ll probably have the best training available to become an Auror, so there is that.
Rosie: Yeah.
Eric: But his father was such an accomplished wizard with everything that he and his friends had done that it’s really not shocking that Harry does have some degree of things coming easily for him… or to him.
Michael: And the book before the epilogue in Deathly Hallows… the book ends in 1998, right?
Kat and Rosie: Mhm.
Michael: So he took nine years from that point to rise to the head of the Auror office, because he became head of the Auror office in 2007.
Eric: Oh, God! Did Jo make him head of the Auror office?
Kat: Yeah.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: Yeah, he rose to the head of the department in 2007.
Eric: I’m sorry, that makes everything worse.
Michael: [laughs] So…
Eric: He’s the head of the office?
Kat: Yeah.
Michael: He is but it took him nine years. So I guess there’s something to be said for that. He obviously…
Eric: Yeah, all the veterans were probably dead.
Michael: [laughs] That’s probably true to some degree. A lot of people did die in the battle.
Kat: Yeah.
Michael: And I know Kingsley was trying to fill in some gaps at the Ministry.
Kat: Well, I feel like we could talk about this forever, and I think it’s probably a good idea to (like Eric said) re-examine it at the end of Deathly Hallows.
Eric: Hmm…
Kat: That’s a good point, I think. And so, moving on to our next comment here from the forums from HollyClaire – it’s quite a long one, so please bear with me here:
“As someone who has been on both ends of the social scale…”
Oh, I should say that this is in reference to the conversation we had about whether you sympathize with James and Sirius or Snape and why. Okay,
“… I can honestly say that I NEVER found it easy to feel sympathy for Snape and cannot still to this day. I spent the early part of my high school years being physically and verbally abused by my classmates, both male and female. I later moved to a different state, where I changed a lot physically and came back to the same school only to be miraculously welcomed into the fold of the upper crust of my grade. I, unlike Snape, had a large group of friends who stuck by me through the tough years and who remained my closest friends despite suddenly having people in the ‘popular’ group calling me a friend as well. I was, in later years, considered a ‘cool kid,’ though I never really thought of myself that way. Somehow, I never found myself in the middle ground like lots of our hosts did.
The years that I spent being bullied NEVER made me a bad person, and I’m still nice to the people who used to torment me because that’s just who I am. I know other people who went through similar experience[s] who would never dream of retaliating the same cruel behavior or even attitude towards the people who tormented them, let alone those people’s children.
What I mean to say is this: because I’ve been on both sides, I can see how those who are blind to their own cruel behavior might think that Harry and Snape are being harsh on James because there is a certain standard set for masculine leaders in large social groups that, occasionally, they have to show their control over others, frequently those much too weak to fight back, in order to maintain their high status. But I also know that despite being bullied myself, I would never, ever treat the children of my tormentors with disrespect or malice just because of the way their parents (or singular parent) behaved towards me, the way Snape immediately does with Harry in Book 1.”
Michael: Hmm… that’s… wow. Because I think the end of the comment is also talking about sympathizing with Snape as an adult.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: Which I don’t.
Eric: Right.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: No, no.
Eric: Yeah, because you can sympatize with him as a kid who’s experiencing this but close yourself off of what he becomes. The issue is too that he has all these issues with James that never get resolved because James dies and that’s partially why… he never quite dealt with that in the fact of what happened with Lily and that’s why he takes it out on Harry. I’m not saying it’s good – it’s by no means good – I think everybody agrees it’s not.
Rosie: I don’t think that Snape takes it out on Harry because of the torment aspect.
Eric: Really?
Rosie: Harry is a permanent reminder – he looks like James but with Lily’s eyes. That idea that he is a permanent reminder of the thing that Snape lost while he was a kid in the form of Lily as well as the fact that he lost her to the person who was tormenting him, that aspect makes him pick on Harry.
Eric: So all the japes that Snape makes about Harry, thinking he’s cool and the arrogance and everything…
Rosie: It all comes… yeah, it does all come back to his childhood experiences, but it’s not solely just because he was bullied.
Eric: Oh, okay.
Rosie: Like the Lily aspect comes in there as well, I think anyway, and…
Eric: Yeah, I see that.
Rosie: But… I don’t know, yeah. I agree that you can feel sympathy for Snape as a child, like separately from him as an adult.
Michael: No… well, I definitely say that because – and a lot of people point this out in this chapter – but the attack on Snape in the memory is unprovoked.
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: James just does it because he’s bored. And we get some kind of reasoning later from Sirius and Remus that Snape is actually kind of a jerk, and he’s just not seen as such in that particular memory.
Rosie: Mhm.
Michael: But there’s this whole thing that continues from that point forward where we don’t really see a lot of Snape back then, versus the one time we get to see James back then and that’s what we get.
Eric: Right.
Michael: So there’s a bit of unfairness in who’s depicted how frequently in the flashbacks and what we get to see. Which I suppose is part of the reason why so many people want more Marauders stuff.
Eric: I have to say it’s probably one of my favorite points of all of these books that this exists, that it’s one sided against James basically and it’s never quite resolved. I like that that exists because that’s something that if I were writing, I would want to please everybody. And I would never have something like this, but this is really controversial, I think. And I know we talked about it at length in the previous episode, but I like that we’re able to question Harry’s dad like this.
Rosie: And the ambiguity makes him more realistic as well.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: Right.
Eric: Yeah.
Kat: He’s not just the hero or the bad guy; there are shades of gray in there.
Kat: Well, from those lovely shades of gray, we have a very… valid point here, pointed out by ElvisGaunt here on the main site. It says,
“Each time I read this chapter, there is one point that kills me; why didn’t Sirius remind Harry of the mirror and ask his godson to use it the next time the latter had an urge to speak to him[?]”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Oh my gosh, this is a totally valid point. I thought of that last week when I was reading the chapter and I didn’t think to bring it up. But yeah, I saw quite a few people bring this up in the conversation both on the forums and the main site, and…
Kat: It would’ve been… it was the perfect opportunity quite honestly.
Michael: Yeah, you would think the first thing he would say is, “Why aren’t you using the mirror to talk to me?”
Eric: Right.
Rosie: How long ago was it given to him? It was a few months now, wasn’t it?
Kat: Christmas, right?
Michael: Mhm.
Kat: So…
Rosie: Where are we now?
Eric: I think Sirius… if you wanted a character reason – although I think it’s just for a literary reason for super drama and crap…
Michael: Mhm. [laughs]
Eric: I think that Sirius was just… as always, he’s too excited to see Harry and actually communicate with him that he’s like… he never thinks of the consequences, right? It’s never about, “Oh my gosh, you’re going to get into so much trouble for doing this.” No, that’s the thrill; that’s what makes it fun. There is that, but I think it’s a major plot issue because…
Rosie: Or Sirius just forgot. Harry forgot; Sirius could, too. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah…
Kat: That’s true.
Eric: But the thing is that is something that Sirius presumably, knowingly gave to Harry so that it would be safe to contact him.
Rosie: Yeah.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: Yeah, the difference of course being that Harry doesn’t even know what it is and threw it in the bottom of his trunk.
Eric: Right.
Michael: So of course it’s a little broken now but it should still work. Yeah, it is mostly for the horrible twist at the end.
Rosie: Pretty much.
Michael: One, I guess you could reason, too. The conversation is very much under pressure since Harry is borrowing Umbridge’s office, and he almost gets caught when Filch shows up to get the approval for whipping.
[Kat laughs]
Michael: [laughs] So the conversation does get cut short. I mean, Harry doesn’t even feel satisfied with the conversation as a whole by the end of it. He’s planned to ask more things, so… who knows? Maybe Sirius was planning to bring it up…
Kat: Perhaps.
Michael: … but he just didn’t have the time.
Kat: All right. Well, we’re going to close out with one more comment – a good nice and funny one, a nice light one here from PuffNProud on the main site. The comment says,
“Just a thought… Ginny feeding Harry chocolate. Since chocolate releases endorphins and makes you feel good, could Ginny be trying to get Harry to associate feeling good with being around her? Kind of like [L]ove [P]otion lite? Is this one small step in a series that Ginny use[s] to get her man?”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: No. [laughs]
Kat: Yeah, I just thought it was a really funny comment. It’s cute, it’s funny; that’s all. Subconsciously maybe she is, who knows?
Michael: No.
Rosie: She’s definitely more active in this book…
Kat: Yes, she is.
Rosie: … and more around and more present.
Kat: Mhm.
Rosie: She’s working her way into the group.
Kat: Yes, she is; that’s true.
Rosie: But she does also have other boyfriends to worry about in this book.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: Besides, the chocolate isn’t hers; her mom sent it…
Rosie: That’s true.
Kat: Ooh.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: There’s the caveat, right?
[Michael laughs]
Kat: “Here, have this chocolate that my mom sent.” [laughs]
Michael: Super sexy. [laughs]
Eric: Molly Weasley, matchmaker.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Yeah, right. So there we go…
Rosie: Just not when it comes to Hermione.
Kat: Ahh.
Rosie: Tiny little Easter egg.
Michael: Yeah.
Kat: Poor Hermione.
Rosie: That’s the last book, never mind.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Kat: Yeah, that’s funny because I thought the same thing when the Easter egg… I was like, where’s the… oh, that’s right; that’s Goblet.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Never mind, never mind. So there we go, that’s our recap comments for this week.
Rosie: But of course we have our Question of the Week from last week to go over as well, and the question was,
“In this chapter, Harry considers whether James ‘forced’ Lily to marry him. While he is assured by Remus and Sirius that this is not the case, Harry leaves the conversation notably unconvinced. What about James caused Lily to change her views on and eventually, marry him? Was it simply his loss of arrogance, or something more?”
There is quite a lot of discussion on the word “forced”, and I think I’m right in saying that it came out of the book itself and not just our question.
Kat: Correct.
Rosie: So thank you all so much for your discussion of it, but don’t blame us, we were just…
[Kat laughs]
Rosie: … copying what they were saying. The first comment here comes from ChocolateFrogRavenclaw, and it does follow quite a lot of other people’s views. And it says,
“I don’t think James ‘forced’ Lily to marry him, but we do see him try incredibly hard to get Lily to go out with him. I don’t think James would ever force Lily to do anything – I also think [that] they both really loved each other – but James always struck me as a flirt who was trying to ‘[go] get the girl’ (in the beginning, at least). Once James actually got to know Lily, and once she got to know him, I don’t think either of them [forced] the other into marriage. What caused Lily to change her mind and go out with James? We will never know, and we can only guess. Whatever it was, I think it was real and not something James forced her in to.”
Michael: Yay!
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: No, I’m just happy that somebody said that so concisely that, yes, there was a legit thing. Something legitimate happened from James’s end that changed Lily’s perspective.
Eric: Right.
Michael: Because the funny thing…
Rosie: Did it even need changing, though?
Michael: No.
Rosie: You can say something and think something else. She might have liked him in the first place and just not outwardly shown it while he was being a prat.
Eric and Michael: Hmm.
Kat: That’s true.
Michael: E.g., Rosie…
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: … it’s like you and I work for MuggleNet Fan Fiction or something. [laughs]
Rosie: I know, it’s amazing.
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: All these other stories…
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Eric: You can secretly have three illegitimate children, too.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: And be in love with Sirius. Yeah.
Michael: [laughs] Well, just a funny thing…
Eric: No, that’s Remus.
Michael: That’s right.
Kat: Oh, sorry. They are married after all.
Eric: Wolfstar.
Kat: On the other side.
Michael: But the funny thing about all of these responses was that I saw a lot of people saying, “We can’t possibly answer this because there’s not enough evidence.” But we got 41 comments.
Eric: Right.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Michael: This is something people obviously feel very passionately about, about filling the gap in. And I definitely think this response is probably the best definitive, with all the evidence we have from the text that we don’t get to quite see that one particular moment yet. It hints at it, though.
Kat: I feel like we should ask Jo for it because she’s given us pretty much everything else we’ve asked for.
Rosie: I know. It’s been amazing. [laughs]
Kat: So Jo, we want the story. So give us the story of Lily and James.
Rosie: We know you’re busy at Halloween. You’ve got Umbridge coming our way. Thank you very much for that.
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: But we’ve got a thing called Christmas coming up that would be perfect for a little holiday scene…
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Yep.
Rosie: … like the first Christmas with Harry with the flying broomstick…
Kat: Oh!
Eric: Lily coming around…
Rosie: Yeah. [laughs]
Eric: Lily coming around to James. [laughs] Let’s make it happen.
Kat: Yes, please and thank you very much.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: We appreciate it.
[Rosie laughs]
Kat: Yes.
Rosie: [laughs] Moving on to the next point, we’ve got Casey L. again. I think we had her earlier.
“The problem with this question, besides not knowing nearly enough about James at this point in the story, is that it assumes Lily’s views are what changed. It seems the little evidence we have from Sirius and Remus suggests it was James who changed in order for her to accept him. From what we know of her, Lily is a strong, intelligent young woman who has very clearly defined views of what she will and won’t put up with in her friends and later, her significant other. The James we see in Snape’s worst memory is not good enough for her, but it seems to me he had a moment somewhere along the line when he realized, ‘I care about this girl, and if I don’t shape up, I’ll never have a chance [with] her.’ He eventually settled down enough to get that first date, and from there, the rest is history.”
Eric: Hmm.
Rosie: It seems very realistic to me. That’s probably what happened.
Kat: I feel like that’s what we were saying, but maybe we weren’t saying it…
Rosie: Clearly enough?
Kat: … as nice as she was.
Eric: Well, we still asked. Yeah, we still asked in the end if he forced Lily, so…
Kat: That’s true, we did.
Eric: I think it helps to reiterate that it could have been James who changed. Yeah, I think that’s plausible. I agree.
Rosie: There was plenty of discussion on what might have caused James to change, other than just realizing that he needs to shape up in a very grease styly.
[Eric laughs]
Rosie: MinervaLupin said,
“I always assumed that James changed his ways after the incident that nearly killed Snape via Lupin werewolf. As we are told, Sirius explained [to] Snape how to get pas[t] the Whomping Willow in order to see the reason why Lupin would leave the castle at night. It was just in the nick of time that James stopped Snape from entering the passageway before Snape [would have] come face to face with a [L]upin werewolf. Sirius wrote it off as a prank, but [-] this is my assumption here [-] James saw it as the marauders having gone way too far in their torment of Snape and thus decided to end his bullying ways. This was a real eye-opener for James since it was one thing making fun of Snape but a whole different thing in nearly having him seriously injured, cursed or killed. An incident like this would make anyone feel remorseful enough to change their ways.”
Eric: Isn’t it stated [which] year that occurs?
Rosie: I’m not sure.
Eric: I was wondering if it’s in their fifth year. Because I’m wondering if that would have happened before we saw this.
Kat: That’s a good point.
Eric: When they’re taking their OWLs.
Michael: Yeah, I was going to say part of me thought it was when James was Head Boy. But… eh.
Kat: Yeah, I feel like it’s after this.
Michael: Yeah.
Eric: Because enough sympathy from Lily, if James was hanging around her, would definitely help him to humanize Snape and start feeling bad for him, especially if they almost killed him. But if he were third grade… because I thought… I guess, no, because it was Harry’s third year. I don’t think it was James’s third year as well. Because at an earlier age, he would’ve not been so self-reflecting.
Kat and Michael: Mhm.
Eric: I guess? Based on the text from the book.
Michael: Well, and if it is that it’s in the year that James is Head Boy, that would definitely speak to what we were talking about last week – that James has had this noteable change in maturity, where Sirius has not. Because we talked about that a lot, about Sirius not…
Rosie: We know that they only become Animag[i] in their fifth year.
Eric: Oh.
Rosie: So it had to be after fifth year…
Michael: So it had to be after that.
Rosie: Yes, it had to.
Eric: Okay, that’s a good point.
Rosie: They are already nicknaming each other with their animal forms by this point.
Eric: So in that case, yeah. I see that event as a perfect catalyst for James, at least the beginning of the end of James’s bullying side. For him to be able to basically split opinions with Sirius, that can’t happen often. And that would probably be the No. 1 thing that leads to his reform. Gosh, we have such good listeners for pointing that out. I had forgotten about that event at all. Completely.
Rosie: Isn’t it interesting that that’s not Snape’s worst memory? Coming face to face with a werewolf?
Eric: He didn’t though, did he?
Kat: He didn’t though, yeah.
Rosie: Did he not at all? He never got that close?
Michael: No. As far as we know he got far down the passage.
Rosie: Maybe that would be James’s worst memory instead.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Oh, yeah, you know what? That really reeks of almost getting what you wish for. Your worst enemy, your arch-nemesis in school, nearly comes face to face with death, but it’s your friend, and everybody would be in trouble if he died. So it’s like not wanting it as much as you want it, for James. I’m sure it would have been a… now that this was brought up by MinervaLupin, I now see it as the defining canon character moment for James to change his ways.
Kat: I would say so. And according to the wiki, it just says, “at some point in their school years.” So we don’t know if it was before or after.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: But I think it’s safe to assume that it was after this moment.
Eric: Right, because they’re Animag[i]. Or they’re all Animag[i].
Kat: Right.
Eric: Except they did a lot in their last few years, because they can’t have been Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs without knowing what their Animagus states were. And we see in Snape’s worst memory that they call themselves that. So they also couldn’t have made the map until right about that time.
Rosie: Do you pick your animal? I think you pick your own animal when you become an Animagus.
Michael: No…
Kat: You do. Yeah, you do.
Michael: You pick your animal?
Rosie: It’s different from your Patronus.
Michael: No, you don’t.
Eric: No, you don’t. No, you definitely don’t.
Michael: You just get an animal.
Rosie: No? Okay.
Michael: Yeah. But I mean, if they were referencing that that early, that could at least indicate that they were maybe working? Because they would have had to work. I think it says that they worked on it for a year before they managed it, so…
Kat: Yeah, it happened in their third year.
Michael: Yeah, they’d been working on it for a while. So by this point they’ve probably refined it enough that they’ve figured out what their animal is.
Kat: They’ve got it down.
Michael: If they’re not… maybe they’ve done a few test runs on the grounds.
Kat: No, no, no, no, no! Because they say, “Wormtail, you run with a werewolf once a month.” They’ve got it down at this point.
Michael: So they do have it down. Yeah, that’s right.
Kat: Oh, yeah. Because they perfect it in their third year. And this is two years after.
Michael: Oh, okay.
Rosie: I thought they perfect it in their fifth.
Kat: No, third.
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: Mine says fifth.
Kat: I don’t think so.
Eric: Because it depends. If it’s their third, then this event… the event with Snape and the werewolf could have already happened.
Kat: It could have, but I doubt it.
Rosie: As second years they discover that Remus is a werewolf. It then takes them three years to learn how to be an Animagus. That makes it fifth year that they perfect it.
Michael: Oh, okay.
Eric: Well, that’s lucky. I would choose to believe that the incident with Snape and the werewolf takes place after Snape’s worst memory just because that wraps it up in a little bow for me, I think.
Rosie: Yeah. [laughs]
Eric: And why we haven’t been reminded of that event, in the after-book discussion, is shocking to me. Because that, to me, again, answers all the questions.
Rosie: So there’s a lot that Pottermore could give us.
Michael: Yes, please.
[Kat, Michael, and Rosie laugh]
Rosie: Hufflepuffskein has sent us a[n] Audioboom, so we are going to play that now. Have a listen.
[Audio]: Hey there, this is Leah, or Hufflepuffskein. I wanted to give a comment on the Podcast Question of the Week and the general idea of James as controversial. One, just to start off, I never really found it controversial. I never really needed him to be redeemed. It just wasn’t something that came up in my reading of the story, and it’s actually been eye-opening to hear all of this sort of thing from listeners and in the podcast. I always just assumed that kids these ages are going to be jerks sometimes or maybe a lot of the time, and they’re going to grow out of it, or at least most of them are definitely going to grow out of it. So it wasn’t ever really something that I felt like some event needed to redeem him for being a jerk. I just assumed it was going to be a maturation process. The other thought that I have on this is that maybe the premise is a bit problematic because why does James have to have this big old transformation to be perfection. It’s almost as if we see Lily as perfect, […] so she has to hae a perfect companion, but I don’t think that James has to be perfect to be compatible with Lily. In real life, we love people [who] are flawed, and we can recognize their flaws and still love them. James could still be a little bit of a jerk in some situations, or he could still harbor a bit of prejudice sometimes, and Lily could still love him, so I feel a bit like the premise of the question about just seeing JAmes as needing to become a really awsome individual is a little problematic. And maybe it’s a change in Lily. Maybe she became a little less perfect. I mean, that’s an option, right? So I just wanted to give that sort of flipside of the coin to think about it in a little bit different way, perhaps.
Eric: Wow. It’s Brilliant Listener Day on Alohomora!
Rosie: I think it goes back to what we were saying earlier that the flaws make people human, and if we see that as perfect people or needing to be perfect people, then they become just rubbish characters and not worth reading.
Eric: I’m totally guilty of idealizing Lily because everybody else does.
Michael: Well, yeah, I think the book doesn’t give us cause not to because pretty much up to the end Lily is portrayed like this perfect angel of a character.
Eric: Well, she’s defined by her final act, which is to die for Harry. That is something that I guess James does, too, but it’s less known, right? He died first, but it wasn’t his death that provided the protection, so…
Rosie: Which is sucky. He died to protect the other two. Why didn’t he get to save her?
[Eric laughs]
Rosie: Yeah.
Kat: I like that she points out that maybe it’s Lily [who] changed a little bit, too. I don’t know. It’s entirely possible, right?
Eric: Yeah. This user, Leah… I really liked that point as well.
Rosie: But with the whole kids are just kids [unintelligible] thing, there is still no excuse for bullying.
Eric: I wouldn’t say bullying’s not natural, though.
Rosie: I would say that it is our duty as adults to try [to] stop people bullying wherever possible.
Michael: As a victim of bullying myself, I would completely agree, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say that it’s not common or naturally occurring.
Rosie: We just have to try [to]…
Eric: It needs to be better understood, I think, and better reformed, prevented, that sort of thing.
Rosie: Yeah.
Kat: Here, here.
Rosie: Just to close up this discussion, I’ve got a really interesting point from ArabellaEm, and it says,
“Would it be fair to judge Ron with only one unfavorable memory? What if we only saw the moment when Ron was jealous of Harry in […] ‘Goblet of Fire’ or when he gave up searching for [H]orcruxes in […] ‘Deathly Hallows’? How would we make sense of Hermione marrying him later? Of course, we see much more of Ron than we do of James. Yes, Ron is an idiot at times, [but] mostly he’s a wonderfully loyal friend. And we all know that Hermione loves him because of his good qualities, overlooking (or tolerating) his not-so[-]desirable moments. I don’t think James and Lily were any different.”
Eric: Wow. [claps]
Kat: Slow clap.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Slow clap! Absolutely. ArabellaEm has totally turned this on its head. Now I’m tired of discussing James and Lily because I want to discuss Ron and Hermione and how she gets back with him…
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Eric: … after how horrible he was to Harry all those times.
Kat: That’s true. This point is spot on.
Michael: Definitely.
Kat: Yeah. Well argued. Good job.
Rosie: Enough said. And that’s the end of our discussion. [laughs]
Michael: [laughs] Which, of course, brings us to this week’s chapter, Chapter 30.
[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30 intro begins]
[Sound of birds twittering]
[Sound of tree creaking]
Hermione: Chapter 30.
[Sound of tree collapsing]
Hermione: “Grawp.”
Grawp: Hermy!
[Hermione sighs exasperatedly]
[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 30 intro ends]
Michael: Well, here’s our chapter summary for this week: Fred and George’s departure has left a lasting impact on the students, staff, and otherworldly denizens of Hogwarts, causing a full-scale rebellion against Umbridge and her lackeys, but in the trio’s immediate world, Harry reveals that he funded Fred and George’s business and that he has yet to return to his Occlumency lessons, but before Hermione can chew Harry out, the focus shifts to Ron’s Quidditch woes as the Gryffindor vs. Ravenclaw match fast approaches. Unfortunately, Hermione and Harry don’t get a chance to watch Ron’s luck turn around [since] Hagrid beckons them to the Forbidden Forest where the centaurs have turned territorial and where Hagrid’s giant half-brother, Grawp, awaits lessons in civility. Much to Harry and Hermione’s dismay, Hagrid asks for a promise that Grawp will be cared for if Umbridge sacks him, but on the upside… Ron helped win the Quidditch cup? So there’s that, kind of, but not really.
Rosie: Only you, Michael, could include a chapter summary [that] uses both [the] words “denizens” and “lackeys” in one sentence.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Eric: Yeah, I had to look up “denizens.” I feel embarrassed, but I also feel impressed at the sheer impressment of…
Rosie: It is a very good word.
[Michael laughs]
Michael: Denizens.
Eric: Which, by the way, for our listeners, if you’re confused just like I was, a denizen is an inhabitant or occupant of a particular place.
Michael: And speaking of denizens, Fred and George have most certainly left their mark on the denizens of Hogwarts. Oh, it’s overused now.
[Michael and Rosie laughs]
Eric: Oh no, there you go.
Michael: Oh no. But yes, Fred and George have left and have caused quite a stir in their absence, and I wanted to point out a few things about the follow-up from once they’ve gone, and one of them is that… really just how… I never really realized it before because the chapters with Fred and George’s jokes, and with the aftermath of their jokes, are so fun and light-hearted. They’re some of the big, major pick-me-ups of this book. But what Hermione keeps stressing about them is that there is a really sophisticated level to what they’re doing, and what’s so neat to me about it is that this is really an early sign of just how Fred and George will use their talent and their knowledge. Because of course, we’re going to find out in the next book that they are creating products to aid in the war and that they’re very socially conscious.
Eric: What I like about this part of the chapter is that I had forgotten, too, how nuanced it is that Hermione and Ron are worried that Fred and George came by their money for this in an untoward way because they know that there'[re] exceptionally talented wizards doing this; the swamp is still not cleared up, all this beautiful stuff. But they worry that Fred and George did something illegal to get the money to give themselves the financial footing to do this. And when Harry dispels that, when he actually tells them the truth, there’s just this sense of relief because they could have possibly been, I guess, unlawful; let’s just say it there. They could have crossed a line, I think.
Michael: Well, and I was thinking about that with that portion, and that speaks shades of coming off of the previous year, where they thought that Fred and George were blackmailing Ludo Bagman. Which, of course, they weren’t; they were actually trying to make an honest man out of him. So that…
Eric: Well, [pronounces “toe-MAY-toe”] tomato, [pronounces “toe-MAH-toe”] tomato.
[Eric, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Michael: But it is definitely… I think, since they didn’t have the evidence, the fact that they did go to that place… because we had talked last week about how Fred and George… are they any different from James and Sirius? How far are they willing to go to get what they need?
Eric: Well, James doesn’t need to look past his own Gringotts vault. Galleons and Galleons.
Michael: [laughs] As he has passed down to his son. But the other thing that I think… again, with the idea of Fred and George being just so on the up-and-up about what’s going on around them and really being very thoughtful about what they do, these two individuals end up causing pretty much a school-wide… they manage to unite the school in a way that I don’t think we’ve seen in a while – definitely not in this book. This has gone beyond Dumbledore’s Army, and now pretty much every House has united to take Umbridge down, notably except Slytherin…
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Michael: … who are still on the side…
Eric: Precursor. Listeners at home, readers at home: This is your clue for what’s going to come in Book 7.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Kat: I mean, they’ve definitely given them the excuse and the means to just let her have it, right? I mean, it’s great. I love it.
Michael: Yeah. And the tools.
Eric: I mean, there’s Peeves, who’s taken their words to heart, but then there’s every single student who also has done the same thing.
Kat: And all the Skiving Snackboxes, I love it. Can you imagine just being Umbridge walking into a room, and people start bleeding and vomiting and having boils and fevers? I don’t know. It’s just funny.
Michael: Well, and yeah, that’s just it. What the chapter points out is that she can’t send them all to detention. And she can’t not send them out of her class because they’re all causing the disruption together. It’s a very… I do like the statement of what a group can do, what it can manage to do, what the power of a group is… but regardless to that, everybody still takes kind of an eye-for-an-eye approach with the Slytherins. And the Slytherins attempt to lay down the law via the Inquisitorial Squad, and the school – just like with Umbridge – fights back on them as well. And we find out about Slytherins like Pansy Parkinson who suddenly sprout antlers for some reason.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: I want to know more about that charm. I want to.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Michael: Right? That sounds like a handy little charm. And it’s been mentioned here. Kat, was that you who inserted that?
Kat: That was me.
Michael: I figured as much. And it’s worth mentioning, definitely, because the conversation that comes out of it is interesting, that Montague has still not recovered from being thrown in the Vanishing Cabinet and then showing up stuck in the toilet. And it’s kind of laughed off by Ron and Harry, like, “Well, that’s what he deserves,” and Hermione is like, “But he could be permanently damaged.” [laughs] Yeah. And the question of whether they should actually tell Madam Pomfrey what happened, because she doesn’t know, so that they can’t even help Montague. I mean, ostensibly, he does get better.
Eric: How does she not know? What’s the circle of knowledge around who threw him in a… she doesn’t know where he’s been? Clearly, he can’t say where he’s been, but I feel like more than one person would know that Fred and George threw him there, or is it just the Gryffindors [who] know and nobody’s doing the right thing? Because that wouldn’t be surprising.
Kat: No, I mean, maybe it’s only Fred and George and the trio. And Lee Jordan, probably. I’m sure they didn’t tell anybody else.
Eric: Well, he’s been found.
Rosie: But even they didn’t really know what happened to Montague. He went into a Vanishing Cabinet and vanished. That’s all that they know.
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Rosie: They don’t know what happened then.
Eric: So won’t it help with the treatment if somebody just walks up to Madam Pomfrey and says that’s where he’s been?
Rosie: Depends what he saw, man.
[Kat and Rosie laugh]
Eric: Wait, Rosie. So you think he saw something that got him this way.
Rosie: No, I don’t know. Because this is obviously the Vanishing Cabinet that we later find out is broken. So anything could have happened.
Kat: Well, it is later revealed that he flits back and forth between there and Borgin and Burkes. So he could have heard…
Eric: That sounds boring.
Kat: No, he could have heard some nasty things at Borgin and Burkes, for all we know.
Michael: Well, and I think…
Eric: He’s in Slytherin. He’s prepared for Dark stuff. [laughs]
Michael: Well, the implication is that because the magic is broken, that that kind of breaks him. Because he’s just tossed around in the nothingness.
Rosie: He is the equivelant of the exploding bird in the movie.
Kat: Maybe he visits chalk world. That other world. Remember the world we talked about? The ghost world, the portrait world.
Michael: Oh. [laughs]
Eric: Weird.
Kat: Never mind.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Eric: No, but he’s peeked into the void.
Michael: Yes. As Rosie said, he’s seen things.
Eric: He’s seeing other dimensions.
Michael: But yes, it is…
Rosie: You don’t know, man. You weren’t there.
Eric: Is a Vanishing Cabinet bigger on the inside? Just thinking out loud.
Kat: Probably.
Eric: [laughs] So he’s been to the edge of the universe and back.
Rosie: Time and [unintelligible] in space.
Eric: He’s seen everything.
[Rosie laughs]
Eric: I was trying to make another anagram out of “toilet,” Rosie, because it’s capitalized here in Kat’s notes. But it’s going to take me too long.
Michael: But as Eric said, it is worth noting that this is kind of the foreshadowing of what’s going to happen at the Battle of Hogwarts. And really at this point, if the Slytherins aren’t coming around now… This is probably the most extreme division we’ve seen at Hogwarts between the staff and the… well, one member of staff and the students. And it is surprising that the Slytherins are still sticking to it.
Kat: I just want one Slytherin.
Michael: One.
Kat: Jo, just name a random Slytherin [who] is decent. Just make him up. I don’t care. Just make him up. [laughs]
Rosie: There are plenty of good fan fics where there is just that one Slytherin kid going, “Guys, what the hell are you doing?”
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Kat: Good. That’s what we need.
Eric: That would be a terrible Hogwarts existance. To spend seven years going, “Guys, really?”
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Michael: But meanwhile, in the trio’s immediate world, they’re taking another Charms class. It’s been a while since we’ve sat in on a Charms class, and of all the things, they’re casting a charm to put legs on teacups.
[Kat laughs]
Michael: And I have to ask, I have it here in italic[s] because it is ever so important to ask.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: Is it alive? Are the teacups alive?
Kat: Noah? Noah?
Eric: Is that you?
Kat: I feel like that’s just a question we ask and don’t answer anymore.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: Because it is alive. Okay, I’ll answer this. You ready for this?
Michael: Yes. My body is ready.
Eric: This is a like a qualifier. If it is alive, it’s suicidal. [laughs] Because the first thing that the two teacups do is run to the nearest edge of the table and jump off.
[Kat, Michael, and Rosie laugh]
Kat: Okay, we should not be laughing about that.
Michael: I know. Well, that’s how painful creating life is with magic, right? Something…
Eric: Well, that’s the thing, is the fact that it’s not done completely, and so it doesn’t want to live, what hurts.
Kat: But why legs on teacups?
Eric: That is… well, exactly.
Rosie: I think it’s meant to be…
Michael: Why not?
Rosie: … so that if you’re serving a big meal, it can go […] serve itself.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Eric: Now you’re just thinking of Beauty and the Beast.
Rosie: Exactly, yeah. That kind of thing.
Kat: They don’t have legs in Beauty and the Beast. They waddle.
Eric: They waddle or hop, yeah.
Kat: Yeah, exactly.
Michael: Well, and that’s definitely…
Rosie: It depends on what your definition of legs is.
Kat: I suppose.
Michael: I think that’s definitely what we see a lot of in Charms, is kind of these… Charms are much more flashy spells that aren’t necessarily practical. They’re more for flamboyancy. Which it would seem to be in this case. Because you certainly… there are probably plenty of… you could levitate the cups if you so desire. The cups don’t have to walk themselves to people. [laughs]
Kat: That’s true.
Eric: Both are Charms. Which is like, I guess, anything in the magical world, just because you can, should you?
Rosie: Doesn’t mean you should.
[Michael laughs]
Eric: And I feel like these teacups jumping off the tables is a sign that you should probably not.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Kat: I feel like you’re channeling Molly Weasley right now.
Eric: How’s that?
Kat: Because she tells Fred and George when they become of age, “Just because you can do magic, doesn’t mean you should.”
Rosie: Says the woman…
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: … who often levitates cauldrons of soup and…
Kat: That’s true.
Michael: And knives. [laughs]
Rosie: … gets carrots to chop themselves.
Eric: Oh, I wanted to mention, there is another charm that comes in handy in this chapter. Speaking of charms real quick, it’s the Bubble-Head Charm – right? – isn’t it?
Michael: Yes.
Kat: Whenever I read that, I always think about the Bubble-Head Charm in the movie, where it’s just over their mouths. I prefer this one where it says it’s like an upside-down fish bowl stuck on the head.
Eric: There'[re] a bunch of astronauts running around Hogwarts.
[Eric and Michael laugh]
Eric: Because students won’t stop dropping – what? – Stinkpellets, right?
Kat, Michael, and Roise: Yeah.
Eric: That’s so bad.
Michael: So you[‘ve] got to wear your protective Bubble-Head Charm through the hallways.
Eric: Need a supply of fresh air.
Michael: So yeah, there’s a charm that actually has [laughs] some practical applications. But the interesting thing, too, about this lesson and of lessons that we’ve seen, really not… this seems to happen especially in Charms lessons, but… and especially in this book. We’ve seen it before, but Charms lessons, especially, seem to reflect the current skill set of Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Every class where we see them practicing, Hermione is excelling, and Ron is failing miserably, and Harry is somewhere in between the two of them. Interestly, Ron actually manages to make his teacup walk, but its leg are too long, so it just topples down on iself. Harry can’t even mkae his teacup grow legs that are long enough to go anywhere.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: And Hermione is doing it perfectly. But interestingy, when she’s so shocked at the news that Harry has funded Fred and George, she does let her teacup walk off the edge and smash.
Eric: I’m telling you, the second she looks away, the teacup makes a run for it.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Yeah, it’s says that it jogged right over the edge.
Eric: It does not want to be transformed right now.
Michael: [laughs] But it is an interesting thing to keep track of, especially in this book, since we are getting very close to exam time, to just watch how… because probably the most interesting background lesson in Charms that we see is the one where they’re actually levitating a pillow, and they’re trying to move it nicely onto the pile that they’re supposed to put it on. And Harry surprises himself by actually doing it correctly without really focusing on it.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Michael: So it’s just interesting to keep track of that, and we’ll see that in future books too. And then, of course, we get to the core of this chapter. Oh, the core. Its name is Grawp. What a name. And okay, before we even get to Grawp… because we’re going to talk a lot about Grawp. But before we even get to him, the interesting thing about introducing Grawp is that we end up getting a Hermione versus Hagrid situation, which doesn’t happen very often.
Rosie: Really? It happens quite often.
Michael: I kind of feel like Hermione even… she entertains Hagrid. She’s willing to, at least, let him get on with his insanity. But she doesn’t…
Rosie: It’s more… she generally tries to teach him. So like with Norbert, it was trying to get rid of the dragon. And she pretty much sorted that out for them, didn’t she? Or was that more Ron and Harry [who] did that?
Michael: Oh no, that was her and Harry.
Rosie: Yeah. Then you have got her teaching Hagrid how to stand up for himself and defend…
Kat: Buckbeak.
Rosie: Buckbeak, thank you.
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: And you have got her doing lesson plans and things for him for Umbridge. So she does do a lot. Hermione and Hagrid seem to pair up to do things fairly often whereas Harry is just like: “Well yes, Hagrid, he is my best friend, yes of course. It is all cool.”
Michael: Yeah, Harry does not often question Hagrid’s actions.
Rosie: Yeah.
Kat: A very random, ridiculous thing, I was just Googling the etymology of Grawp and the scary part is babynames.com was the first website to come up.
Michael: Oh no. [laughs] No.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Kat: I am just saying that is…
Michael: Name your child Grawp.
Eric: I always assumed it was – what is it, not a portmanteau – I am forgetting the literary term but it is…
Rosie: Onomatopoeia.
Eric: It sounds like grow up, which is a joke because he is sixteen feet tall, but he has also got the mind of a child and he is also small for a giant, so Grawp was kind of like… I always thought of it as grow up. I think that was one of the first things.
Michael: Well, and as far as we know that may not even be his name. That is just how Hagrid hears it.
[Eric and Rosie laugh]
Rosie: it is a noise he makes occasionally.
Michael: It is just a noise.
Eric: Hagrid has got pretty well-trained ears for giant speak I would think.
Michael: The interesting thing about… because what is humorous in this portion but what is also interesting to see is that Hermione pretty much completely loses her head which is something we don’t see very often. And it gets to the point where she actually, very briefly, sides with Umbridge, by saying that she finds is somewhat reasonable or believable that Umbridge would try to kick Hagrid out.
Eric: After what he is doing in the forest.
Michael: After they find out what he is doing with Grawp.
Eric: Can I just say that I just completely take umbrage with everything that Hagrid does in this chapter. He’s using… the kids are co-dependent to him. He is using their good nature to really, really, really, really get them to inappropriately enter the forest and care for his giant brother. His mistake is now their pain to deal with. It’s now their problem and I do not think it is cool at all that he is asking this of Hermione and Harry, and Ron by extension. I don’t think it is cool that he even asks. And of course once they see what is going on in the forest they want to help but they are also kind of scared and… I don”t know, if it were not for the centaurs, one remark about not killing foals or kids or whatever, they give you a warrant for that one thing, that is the one saving grace where I am like okay, they probably will be okay if they come back into the forest. But if it were not for that, Hagrid is really asking them to risk their lives for his vendetta or his own passing interest.
Kat: And Hermione even says that, she is like: “A giant, in the forest? And we have to teach him English?” I think Hermione is right there with you. I think most of us are. I would agree.
Michael: Yeah, yeah that… well and going along with that, as was mentioned, many people find this… and it wasn’t just us. This was a pretty universal feeling on this chapter, that it is almost in a way kind of pointless. So Grawp gets introduced here. He’s a big, kind of silly giant, and he’s kind of adorably aloof to everything around him. But he doesn’t really go anywhere in my opinion.
Eric: He’s tied up.
Michael: Well yes, quite literally.
Kat: Ba-dum pum.
Michael: But Grawp’s… unlike so many things that Rowling introduces which end up having some really rich payoff, Grawp pretty much just gets a cameo at the battle of Hogwarts and that’s it. Is… ? If you guys want to elaborate further on your feelings on Grawp as a character and his… and the relevancy of this chapter…
Eric: Woo!
Michael: Yeah, go on. [laughs]
Eric: Well.
Kat: I have a theory. I think this was Jo’s attempt at giving Hagrid a family. And I believe at this point she had still… she at one point considered offing Hagrid.
Michael: Mhm.
Kat: Or was he the one that she said…
Michael: Yeah.
Kat: I feel like… my point is…
[Michael laughs]
Kat: I feel like this was her attempt to give Hagrid a family so that if she wanted to kill him we would feel bad.
Eric: Hmm.
Kat: That’s all.
Eric: I think also it could be possible the giants had a bigger role in the Battle of Hogwarts that never got written down on the page. Or maybe…
Kat: That’s true, too.
Eric: … Grawp had a bigger role. I always felt that it was leading towards the final battle and he does participate, although Michael called it a cameo.
Michael: Which it is, you really only… he pops in once. He’s there for the whole thing ostensibly, but you only get one big moment from him. And he’s also at Dumbledore’s funeral at the end of Book 6. But that’s really all we see of him. And kind of what you guys were saying, that perhaps he was a remnant of a lost plotline. But what’s interesting to me about that is we’ve seen from Rowling, thanks to her old website and Pottermore, that there were a lot of remnants that got cut.
Rosie: Mhm.
Kat: I feel like he’s definitely one of them.
Eric: That should’ve…
Rosie: It bugs me that he wasn’t cut from the movie. [laughs]
Michael: Yeah, me too.
Kat: Ah, yeah.
Rosie: All the things that they cut. And they don’t cut Grawp.
Eric: Yeah, I was actually thinking about that in this because I remember the scene, and it’s this important scene…
Kat: And there are so many continuity errors that it blows my mind.
Eric: Yeah.
Kat: It blows my mind. That stupid set of handlebars goes back and forth…
[Rosie laughs]
Kat: … between Hermione and Grawp four times.
[Eric laughs]
Kat: Ugh. I’m sorry, we’ll get there, we’ll get there.
Michael: Well and the thing about… what the movie almost could’ve done, and was bordering on doing seamlessly, which in a way I feel the book should’ve done, is focus more on the centaurs…
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: … and take Grawp out completely.
Kat: Yep.
Michael: Because the centaurs seem to fill the role just fine, especially because I think the anticipation from a lot of readers when Hermione at the end of the book leads Umbridge and Harry into the forest is that she’s actually going to Grawp.
Rosie: To the centaurs.
Michael: Yeah. But then she goes to the centaurs, and they take care of it. And Grawp’s not even really necessary to the scene.
Eric: You know what? I was just thinking about this, too. Book 7 came out the same summer as Movie 5. In fact, two weeks apart, I think I remember. It was the summer of Potter. So clearly J.K. Rowling said that Grawp was a big enough guy, a big enough character that he should be in the movie. Because they were consulting and I’m sure she consulted on the script a little bit. So he was important enough to keep in the movie for everybody involved, but she kind would have had a really great idea of his role, how big it was going to be, how important it was, because she was finishing writing or editing Book 7.
Kat: True, true.
Michael: Hmm.
Eric: And yet he still made the cut. He still made the cut over other things.
Michael: Well, I don’t know if that’s definitive proof, because she didn’t have say over everything in the script and actually I feel, and we’ll get to this more of course with the movie viewing, but Order is a, in my opinion, a shoddy script. It has problems, it has a lot of problems with things that just get introduced and don’t go anywhere and Grawp is one of those, to a fault, one of the most major ones.
Kat: Hey, look, they took something perfectly from the book and put it in the movie! [laughs]
Michael: And put it in the movie. [laughs]
Kat: A plot that goes nowhere.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: See, that’s what happens when you adapt everything.
Kat: Good job! Yeah, good job.
Michael: But, yeah, I think…
Rosie: One other thing, though.
Michael: Oh, go ahead.
Rosie: With Hagrid asking Harry and Hermione to look after him, Hagrid goes to a cave on the other side of Hogsmeade. That’s as far as he goes.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Rosie: He could easily have come back, or even just stayed in the forest.
Kat: Yes.
Rosie: Umbridge certainly isn’t going to go looking for him there. It’s just curious.
Michael: I suppose he doesn’t stay in the forest because of the centaurs.
Eric: Hmm.
Michael: But considering how much protection Grawp probably would have been, he probably could have.
Kat: Taken him with him or stayed in the forest, either one would have worked.
Rosie: Don’t mess with spiders.
Eric: I guess I do like in the movie the shot of the centaurs trying to get Grawp, trying to attack him and how the arrows just don’t even phase him. I do like that scene.
Kat: Mhm.
Rosie: It’s the worst CGI. I just…
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: None of it is believable.
Kat: If we talk about it all now, we’re not going to have anything to mash when it comes to movie time.
Rosie: This is true.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Michael: But yes the Grawp, that’s Grawp.
Rosie: Can we find any redeeming features of Grawp before we go…
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: … on this whole discussion?
Eric: Can we just, I think it’s easy to hate him because he’s simple, right? It’s not, that shouldn’t be.
Kat: That’s, I don’t, hm. I don’t hate Grawp, I just think he’s useless.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Eric: Ah, okay.
Michael: Well, I think what makes it doubly offensive to the fandom is that Order of the Phoenix is already really long and very depressing as a book, comparatively speaking.
Kat: [sarcastically] No.
Michael: It’s a heavy book, you have to admit, even if you love it, it’s heavy. It’s heavy material. And at this point, this is where we’re really laying it on.
Rosie: But then Grawp is slightly light relief in the whole Hermie thing. That is kind of funny.
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: Ish.
Michael: Stretch.
Kat: Funny-ish.
Michael: Stretch that plot.
[Kat, Michael, and Rosie laugh]
Michael: And, like Kat said, too, Grawp does also fill the role of filling out Hagrid’s character and his past and his family. Which is something that Hagrid’s kind of always, we’ve gotten hints from Goblet that the family unit is something he would like to have and this is definitely, it’s not fan service, it’s Hagrid service, it’s Hagrid service that Rowling…
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: And it explains… Rosie: He could have easily gotten that by marrying rather than by having a brother.
Michaelc: Oh, Madame Maxine.
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: Who, by the way, couldn’t even put up with Grawp and that is why they separated on the way back. [laughs]
Eric: Yeah, bless her…
Rosie: And never turns up again.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Eric: … she agreed to not mention it to the Ministry of Magic and the other governing bodies that would be offended by Grawp’s presence.
Michael: Mhm.
Eric: Which is nice. She did a nice thing for Hagrid there, but he took two extra months to get down off of the side of the mountain.
Michael: Mhm. Just too…
Eric: Yeah, just too…
Rosie: It’s like she turned around and said: “We were going on this nice walking holiday and now you are only interested in your brother. Fine, I’m leaving.”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Yeah, but listeners if you can come up with some connections or some saving graces for Grawp, we’d really appreciate it. He’s nice to have around, but he just doesn’t quite… I think because we’ve been so conditioned – especially by Rowling’s writing – to see something come out of everything…
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: … this is the first big instance where – literally big – where nothing big comes out of it.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: But moving forward, there is the matter of the centaurs and the one thing I did want to discuss about the centaurs is that they talk to Hagrid about getting extremely offended that he intervened and saved Firenze’s life. And for me this brought up issues that are similar, in a way, to Trelawney’s method of fortune telling, which is if the Centaurs can see everything that is going to happen in the grand scheme of things wouldn’t they have seen that coming anyway?
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Oh, man.
Rosie: They don’t see particular things. They see shifts in power and that kind of thing. Mars is bright tonight, therefore something bad will happen and they don’t know specific… yeah.
Eric: War is coming, yeah. They actually see what is Twitter trending right now.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Yeah, they see trends…
Michael: Well, wouldn’t it be because this is just for them this is such a dramatic shift in they relationship to Hogwarts…
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: … as well as even the rest of the forest. Even if Hagrid intervening wasn’t the perhaps the event that was specifically written in the stars, wouldn’t this be something that they would… this general change of attitude, wouldn’t this be something that they would have already foreseen?
Kat: Not if it was a spilt decision, something that wasn’t predestined or determined. I think that and that maybe Trelawney being sacked and there being a new teacher is something that maybe has always been destined, but maybe they threw them for a huge loop Dumbledore did, when they asked Firenze – however you say it – to be the new teacher. Maybe that was just completely out of left field.
Eric: Yeah. I mean, I think what they might have seen in the stars is something like their gradual displacement from the forest, maybe?
Kat: Yeah, something more broad.
Eric: Something more broad and then that surprises them in the intricacies.
Michael: Hmm.
Kat: Mhm.
Eric: I think it’s really awesome, obviously, what Hagrid did. And I know we give shade to Grawp but Hagrid, I think, did the right thing here. Unless you go by Star Trek‘s prime directive, in which case they probably should have killed Firenze because that was their practice.
Michael: Mhm.
Eric: I don’t know. We see it as overreacting and we’re allowed that luxury, but for the centaurs it’s like giving away their secrets that they hold culturally dear. Firenze… you can’t help but see it from the centaurs’ perspective in the way that he has broken the holy, sacred secrets to a bunch of uncaring, unsuspecting 15-year-olds.
Rosie: I think it definitely matters that Firenze is so different from the rest of the centaurs. Him and Bane are extremely different people, if you can call centaurs people.
Michael: Mhm. Yeah.
Rosie: They wouldn’t be happy with that.
Michael: No, they wouldn’t.
[Everyone laughs]
Rosie: But their attitudes toward wizards are very different and I think the general attitude of the centaurs is that they know that the next war is coming and that they are distancing themselves from the wizarding world. And Firenze does the opposite. He wants to help. He helps Harry and he sees a hero figure that might actually win the war.
Kat and Michael: Mhm.
Rosie: And in that sense, he does what he can to influence things which is not the centaurs’ way. So I think it’s more differing attitudes within the centaurs than the centaurs in general making… yeah.
Michael: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I like the idea, too, that there’s that element that they’ve also perhaps foreseen the evolving, changing place of their position in the forest…
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: … which is a direct consequence of this upcoming war. And since centaurs, we know, are so involved with their own culture and their own lives and don’t really much care for humans… although, that is something I’m still questioning, especially because they do seem to… I go back to Sorcerer’s Stone when they kept dropping the fact that Mars is bright tonight in front of Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Hagrid.
Eric: They kind of want to be overheard?
Michael: Yeah, exactly.
[Eric and Rosie laugh]
Michael: But luckily we get out of range of the centaurs who, as Eric previously pointed out, say that they will not harm children, but we’ll see that that’s not true. [laughs]
Kat: Right.
Eric: That’s a parallel between Book 1 and Book 5… or parallel or not, there’s something in the forest that they don’t want in the forest.
Michael and Rosie: Mhm.
Eric: In Book 1 it’s Voldemort and they need Hagrid’s help removing it, right? Or they need Hogwarts’s help removing it. And in Book 5, Hagrid put it there, so they don’t like it.
Michael: Yeah.
Kat: Whoops.
Michael: Well, that’s interesting that you brought that up because I immediately thought of the parallels between this and Book 2 where we see that Hagrid’s relationship with things in the forest is actually perhaps not as definite and assured as we think because once again, we have a rather large group of creatures that are willing to kill Harry and his friends. [laughs] Even though they have Hagrid’s trust.
Eric: Mm. And either one would kill Hagrid. I mean, that’s in the text that the kids would kill Hagrid, so…
Michael: Yeah.
Rosie: Who would win: A centaur or a giant spider?
Eric and Michael: Ooh.
Eric: Oh, actually, a centaur, because they can use weapons. Ranged weapons.
Kat: Yep. Right, that’s true.
Eric: That would be my D&D.
Kat: Nice.
Michael: Right in one of your eight eyes, spiders. But the last point is, of course, about Quidditch. There’s a lot of background Quidditch going on in this chapter which, as I have mentioned before in discussion, it is becoming very clear that Rowling is becoming frustrated and bored with Quidditch because once again, there’s an important match here, but we don’t get to see it.
Eric: It takes place offscreen.
Michael: Yes, and I think a lot of people would actually happily trade Grawp out for this match.
[Everyone laughs]
Rosie: Definitely!
Kat: Yeah, I think we would, actually.
Eric: Now you’ve just sold it, now you’ve said it.
Kat: There must be a fan fiction about this match. There must be.
Michael: If there… well, there is now.
Rosie: Well, Ron talks about it, so we get it through his reporting.
Kat: That’s true.
Michael: Yeah, we’ll eventually get a quick version of this match.
Rosie: Yeah.
Michael: But it’s interesting to note that Harry and Cho’s relationship is actually reflected in this match.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Michael: We see the closure on that, which is that Harry sees Cho going out to play Quidditch, and that she’s chatting with Roger Davies very animatedly, and Harry feels nothing except a slight twinge of, “Oh God, there she is.” And that’s the end of it. But more importantly, Ron finds his bearings. And there is a transformation of the “Weasley is Our King” song, which, humorously, Hermione doesn’t even notice when they hear it starting up.
[Rosie laughs]
Michael: But the Gryffindors have taken the song and made it their own. And Ron is just like, “Yep, I won!” And we find out later that he’s just like, “Yeah, I just finally figured it out.”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Well, I think it is perfectly done that it’s offscreen because at this point in the book, my eyes were skipping past the Weasley song. I was just like, “Oh, there it is. Okay. It’s indented; I can easily skip it.”
[Michael laughs]
Eric: So I didn’t realize at first that the words were different.
Michael: Mmm.
Eric: “Did not let the Quaffle in.” Hmm. So it shocked me. I think I had the same reaction.
Michael: Mhm.
Kat: Shocked? You were shocked?
Eric: Yeah, I was shocked. Well, I guess… Ron’s character arc, in my head canon or because it happened offscreen… I like that she makes you think about it because for me, I just think, “Okay, so he made one good save that he probably shouldn’t have made…”
[Michael laughs]
Eric: … and it just encouraged him, and like that, the rest is history and Cho is probably not on top form, and… I think it was luck, but I think in the lead-in, when all that time passes and they’re getting toward the match, it is said, “Hufflepuff narrowly defeats Slytherin,” and I think that’s even more implausible than Gryffindor and Ravenclaw…
Michael: Ooh.
Rosie: What are you trying to say, Eric?
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Eric: I’m not trying to be prejudiced against Hufflepuffs, but it just seems like everybody is not on their best game or not where it should be. It seems like J.K. Rowling is getting tired of Quidditch.
Rosie: Yeah. It’s just nice to see Ron win for a change, and on his own bearings.
Kat: Yeah.
Eric: Mhm.
Rosie: He did it himself. He didn’t need Hermione’s help, he didn’t need the twins…
Eric: Yeah. What shocks me is… well, yeah, first of all, who is replacing the twins? Did they say that? Because…
Kat and Rosie: Yeah.
Kat: Sloper and somebody else.
Michael: Yeah.
Eric: Is it Ginny? No, it’s not Ginny.
Kat: No, no. And I was going to point out the fact that this is the moment where Ginny wins over Cho, figuratively and literally.
Michael: Mhm.
Eric: Ooh. Nice.
Michael: Well, yeah, once again, this match being a reflection of the end of Harry and Cho’s relationship.
Kat: Yep.
Michael: Because Cho also throws a fit, fittingly. [laughs]
Eric: What shocks me the most is that Ron knows that Harry and Hermione weren’t there to witness it because the first thing he says from across the pitch is, “We did it! We won!” Informing them of the outcome. So I feel like…
Rosie: No, he doesn’t know; he just says it because he’s celebrating.
Kat: Excited. “Oh my God! We won! Yay!”
Michael: Yeah, he doesn’t find out until the next chapter that they weren’t there.
Eric: Oh, okay, because I just assumed that if he knew that they weren’t there, he would’ve gone to pieces again.
Michael: Well, which is the bittersweet thing about this, is that Ron does finally succeed at something and Harry and Hermione don’t see it. For me, that was kind of sad…
Rosie: Yeah, it’s very sad.
Michael: … just because, like you said, Eric, this is a big moment for Ron. But not only do Harry and Hermione not get to see it, but we as readers don’t actually get to see it in action, which was for me a little disappointing, and again, another reason why I would happily exchange Grawp to see this match. [laughs] But unfortunately, that is how this chapter ends. But it’s our little light at the end of the tunnel since Hermione has completely lost her head and Harry just doesn’t know what to think about Grawp being plopped into the forest.
Kat: Oh, you rhymed. Good job.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Michael: And that is the end of what may be one of the most detested chapters of Order of the Phoenix.
Kat: I like to call it pluckable. Because you could just “boop.”
Michael: You could just pluck it right out, like a tree.
Kat: Yes, much like a tree.
[Everyone laughs]
Rosie: Pluckable like a tree.
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: That is the worst analogy ever. Only if you’re a giant.
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Is it Grawp’s fault? He’s so big, though. We see him pulling trees and we’re like, “What a menace to nature that guy is.” But he’s 16 feet tall. That’s his only suitable play thing, and Hagrid doesn’t…
Rosie: It’s a toothpick. It’s fine.
Eric and Kat: Yeah.
Kat: It’s like a dog carrying a little branch.
Michael: Oh, and it is worth mentioning, while Rosie is putting down the Question of the Week, that Harry is a total jerk to Ron, and is like, “Hey, you know what I was dreaming about when I was talking about the corridor? I was actually dreaming about you getting the Quaffle because you suck.”
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Yeah, that was pretty mean.
Michael: Harry hasn’t been mean in a while, so there’s a little of that. And I just love that Hermione and Ron don’t even comment. Ron is just like, “Yeah, you’re right.”
[Everyone laughs]
Eric: Yeah, that’s a pretty good point.
Rosie: So our Podcast Question of the Week this week is a bit of a difficult one. “This chapter is difficult in general; as we’ve all stated, it’s a tiny bit pluckable. The actual new information here is kind of unnecessary, but there are so many links into the other books. So looking at the explorations of Hermione’s character that we discussed, of the twins’ triumph, of Umbridge’s fears with the centaurs, and even Harry and Cho’s relationship coming to an end, is there a point to this chapter hidden between the lines? What do you guys think? Let us know.”
Michael: Yes. Why should we not pluck this tree?
[Kat and Rosie laugh]
Michael: Give us a reason.
Eric: If you would like to be on the show, please visit the Alohomora! website where we have all of the details that you need to learn how you can do that. The website is alohomora.mugglenet.com. It can be easier than you think if you have a set of Apple headphones, but not everybody has those. No fancy equipment is needed. You just need something to record yourself on, something to record into and something to play it back, and Skype. Yeah, I think that’s it. Oh, and a personality! Yay!
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Eric: So all that stuff is listed on alohomora.mugglenet.com.
Kat: And if in the meantime you just want to keep in touch with us, you can follow us on Twitter at @AlohomoraMN, facebook.com/openthedumbledore, we’re on Tumblr at mnalohomorapodcast. Of course, our phone number is 206-GO-ALBUS – that’s 206-462-5287 – and Audioboom as you heard today. You can leave us a message for free. All you need is an Internet connection and a microphone, and you can do that right over at alohomora.mugglenet.com, and please do try to keep it under 60 seconds so we can play it on the show.
Rosie: Don’t forget we’ve also got our store where you can get sweatshirts, long-sleeve T-shirts, tote bags, flip-flops, and so much more. Definitely exactly what you need in this weather is flip-flops.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Rosie: We also have free ringtones on our website.
Michael: And of course, our smartphone app, which as we now say, is available on this side of the pond and the other.
Kat: I still prefer “seemingly worldwide,” but it’s okay. It’s okay.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Rosie: Available anywhere with a Floo connection.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: There you go.
Michael: Whatever the availability, prices do vary depending on your location on this side of the pond or the other. The app includes things like transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and more. You don’t want to miss it. Last week I sang for you guys.
Kat: And it was brilliant! It was amazing.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: If you guys didn’t see it, it was brill. It was brill.
Michael: [laughs] So there are definitely many things on the app worth checking out, but in the meantime, we are now going to pluck this episode. It’s over, you guys. It’s over.
[Show music begins]
Michael: I’m Michael Harle.
Kat: I’m Kat Miller.
Eric: I’m Eric Scull.
Rosie: I’m Rosie Morris. Thank you for listening to Episode 108 of Alohomora!
Eric: Open the Dumbledore!
[Show music continues]
[Sound of someone blowing their nose]
Kat: Who was that?
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Kat: Was that Eric? It must have been because he’s not answering.
[Michael and Rosie laugh]
Eric: You should have a… what’s the word? A bulldozer. “Beep, beep, beep,” and then the tree gets ripped out of its roots.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: That’d be funny. You could do the centaurs, too.
[Michael laughs]
Rosie: Or just a [as movie Hermione] “Put me down!”
Michael: [laughs] If only Grawp had actually picked her up.
Kat: Hermy.
Eric: Yeah. If only that had ever happened.
Michael: [as Grawp] Hermy! [laughs]
Kat: [laughs] Oh, that was lovely.
Michael: [laughs] All right…
