Transcript – Episode 88

[Show music begins]

Noah Fried: This is Episode 88 of Alohomora! for June 14, 2014.

[Show music continues]

Noah: Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Alohomora!, reading the Harry Potter series and taking names. I’m Noah Fried.

Kat Miller: [laughs] I’m Kat Miller.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric Scull. And this week, we have a very special guest returning for I believe… is it the third time to Alohomora!?

Kat: Fourth, I think.

Eric: Fourth time to Alohomora! as a guest host. My longtime podcasting partner, Micah Tannenbaum.

Micah Tannenbaum: I feel like you should be playing the Rocky theme or something.

[Kat laughs]

Micah: Or Return of the Champions. Returning to the ring.

Kat: Is it four? I think it’s four, right?

Micah: Yeah, I think it is four, yeah.

Kat: I think it’s four.

Eric: Wow, Micah. You can’t get enough of this Harry Potter discussion that we have.

Micah: No, I just enjoy coming back and talking with all of you. It’s always a lot of fun, and it’s great to always see some of the feedback – some of the feedback – after these shows. There’s been some interesting comments that have been made.

Noah: What are you talking about? The fans love you, Micah.

Micah: Uh-huh.

[Kat laughs]

Micah: Some don’t think I know anything about this series. I’ve only talked about it for – what? – seven or eight years.

Eric: Something like that.

Micah: Something like that. Maybe even nine at this point.

Eric: It’s closer to nine, yeah. In two months it’ll be nine.

Noah: I thought this was first time. I thought this podcast was the first time you had talked about Harry Potter. You usually talk about Game of Thrones.

Micah: Right. That is true. I transitioned from one to the other, so it’s good to be back. I enjoy coming on and talking with you guys.

Eric: So Micah is talking about Harry Potter, and this week, of course, we have Chapter 11 of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix, titled “The Sorting Hat’s New Song.” We do want to remind the listeners of this episode to read “The Sorting Hat’s New Song” before proceeding with our discussion.

Micah: Do they just have to read the new song portion of it? Or they have to read the whole chapter?

Noah: No, no, they got to read the whole chapter. Or they don’t have to.

Micah: Whole chapter.

Kat: Yeah, the whole thing.

Noah: It’s recommended.

Micah: Oh, I just read the song.

[Eric laughs]

Noah: Get out.

[Eric laughs]

Noah: Get out now.

Eric: We’ll know to call on you, then, when we get to that part of the chapter, and perhaps you could even sing it for us, Micah.

Micah: Perhaps.

Eric: Since you’ve been rehearsing, I’m sure.

Kat: I was going to say, you could do a theatrical reading.

Noah Oh, I’d love that.

Micah: I just thought it was great the Sorting Hat even was nice enough to do a new song in this book.

Eric: Well, I think he feels some sort of obligation, but we can definitely…

Noah: Whoa, whoa, Eric, we got to wait until we get there.

Eric: Of course. There are other things to get through first, Noah. You know the song isn’t all the Sorting Hat has for us this week. We actually – surprisingly – have time for an email that came out of this Hat.

Noah: Can I read it in the Hat’s voice?

Eric: I dare you to read it in the Hat’s voice.

Noah: That might be inappropriate, given the content.

Eric: No, no. Yes, that’s… no.

[Noah laughs]

Eric: We got a message from Lloyd that we would like to share. And we don’t normally do this on the show, but it is very meaningful to us to have received this email, and I’m sure the listeners will find it important as well. This email, again, is from Lloyd. Lloyd says,

“I would like to thank you and all the hosts for always being there to comfort and take my mind off things. On Friday, my [g]randad passed away unexpectedly. It came as a massive shock, and we were all upset. I needed something to help; guess what I went to! I’ll say it again: thank you all for talking to the audience directly like friends in a conversation. It’s wonderful being able to go straight to people who love and appreciate Potter as much as I do and be[ing] able to just listen and laugh. Receive my gratitude, and pass it on to the others! Thank you. :)”

Well, Lloyd, sorry for your loss.

Kat: Very nice email.

Eric: We’re really glad that you can find friends in us, and it’s one of the many reasons why we do this show.

Micah: Yeah. That’s just [a] wonderful email and just a testament to what you guys do on a weekly basis, the fact that you find a way for people to escape from what’s going on in the “real world.” So that’s a really great email.

Eric: Yeah. And we got some crazy things going on in this world. [laughs]

Kat: Yes, we do.

Eric: Craziness. Craziness all around.

Kat: Thanks for sharing that with us, Lloyd.

Noah: And now we’re going to talk about the comments on our discussion from last week. Our first one is from Coski Nation. This is in response to Kat questioning why Molly’s boggart was so extreme with showing the deaths.

“As a mother of a toddler boy I can completely understand. Yes, moms generally have consistent worry over their child’s safety and future; however, many of us have to fight it with logic instead of giving in and becoming overbearing and too protective.”

So that was in regard to Kat’s wondering why Molly’s deepest fear was the gruesome deaths of her children. And there were several mothers in the comments who voiced that this is actually a natural fear, including DolphinPatronus, Mollywobbles, and Silverdoe25.

Micah: I love that a mother has taken the username “Mollywobbles.” That’s the best.

Kat: Yeah, it’s great. [laughs] And I just want to be clear that I don’t think it’s crazy and extreme about the fact that Molly’s boggart is her children dying. I just think that it seems too catastrophic for everyday. That’s all. But I’m not a mother, so what the hell do I know?

Eric: Too catastrophic for everyday?

Micah: I’m not a mother either…

Kat: Yeah.

Eric: [laughs] Oh my goodness. Good pretending.

Micah: But no, I wonder if… and I don’t know if you talked about this on the previous episode, but would it have been different if she had encountered this boggart, let’s say, around the time of Sorcerer’s Stone or Chamber of Secrets? Just because I think that they can certainly change. Your deepest fears can change over time, and I think that where we are right now in terms of the series that it’s quite possible that this is her innermost fear at this particular time, and so I understand what Kat is saying. I think it’s a great point that from day-to-day, to have that be your utmost fear, I guess, as a mother, it has to be at the top of your mind, especially given the context of what’s going on, but you wonder – if you went a couple [of] years – if it would still be the same thing.

Kat: That was exactly the question that I asked. I said, “If they weren’t in a warzone, in a war time, would it be different?” And I think it might be. I still think it would probably involve something with her children and being injured, but I don’t know if she would jump immediately to death, to gruesome, gruesome death. But again, not a mother, so…

Noah: An interesting question would be “What would her boggart take [the] shape of before she had kids?”

Micah: Depends on if her brothers died.

Noah: It would have been after that, let’s say. Right in that in-between space.

Kat: Something with Arthur, maybe? Who knows?

Noah: She’s a very caring person.

Kat: I mean, I guess Molly is, yeah, probably people- and family-centric, so who knows?

Micah: Yeah. Right so art.

Kat: But thanks for backing me up on that, Micah. I appreciate it.

Micah: Yep, no problem. That’s why I’m here. I was recruited just to do that.

Eric: He’s here on loan a [leaf?] now. Micah is here on loan from the Game of Owns podcast. We have to give him back at the end of the show.

Kat: Right.

Noah: And our next comment comes from Elvis Gaunt. And this is in regard to the Thestrals and an interesting detail that Jo put in about them beng reflected in Luna’s eyes.

“Harry saw the [T]hestrals reflected in Luna’s eyes. [Harry] is definitely not imagining them. Why is Harry still uncertain, then[?] Also, if he had told Hermione about them, she would have guessed what they were in an instant.”

So that’s just an interesting suggestion because it means if Harry could see the reflection in Luna’s eyes, did he think that that, too, was another illusion? But he used that to sort of explain it to himself. And a comment under that from RebeccaTheRavenclaw:

“The phrasing for this was always weird to me. Yeah, they are reflected in [Luna’s] eyes. Okay, [but] does that mean there is *not* a reflection in anyone else’s eyes who can’t see the [T]hestrals? Maybe it’s just part of the magic, but I always wondered why the reflection was so important. Like, why can’t the horses be reflected in Ron’s eyes?”

Eric: Hmm, it’s an interesting one. I think anyone who could see Thestrals could see them reflected in anyone’s eyes because… and if you can’t see them, you wouldn’t be able to see their reflection anywhere.

Micah: Right.

Kat: Yeah, I concur.

Noah: What if there were an elaborate chain of mirrors that was somehow able to convey the Thestral to somebody who had not seen death?

Eric: Ugh. Now I’m just thinking of that horror film, Mirrors, and it’s not a happy thought.

Kat: Oh, gosh.

Eric: You get mirrors to face each other, and then the 15th row of a mirror, there’s something coming to get you. It’s terrifying, terrifying!

Kat: Ugh, don’t go there!

Eric: But yes, Thestrals and why Harry doesn’t realize that they exist… it’s all to serve the story. We’re not at the chapter called “Thestrals,” yet, so we’re just going to have to hold off on his fully believing that they exist at the moment.

Kat: I had never picked up on that reflection, though…

Micah: Yeah.

Kat: … for some odd reason, so that’s a good little detail.

Noah: Yeah, if Harry had just been a little bit more of a Ravenclaw, maybe he could have reasoned it as opposed to thinking he was going crazy. Or maybe him going crazy is a logical jump. I don’t know.

Kat: That is the last house Harry would ever be in, for the record.

[Eric laughs]

Noah: He is pretty stupid.

Eric: Oh, God.

Noah: He’s spacey.

[Eric laughs]

Kat: No, it’s not even that. It’s just the last house he would ever be in.

Eric: Noah, maybe I’ll have you go over the Sorting Hat’s song this year because stupid is not one of the traits, okay?

[Kat laughs]

Micah: Yeah.

Noah: That’s what… isn’t that where the [unintelligible] would be?

Eric: Yeah.

Noah: Is that what you’re saying?

Kat: I don’t think he’s particularly bright, but I don’t think he’s stupid.

Noah: Well, you’re saying he doesn’t value intelligence, is what you’re saying.

Kat: I think he’s a little… I think he’s dense. No, I mean, hmm, I don’t think it’s at the top of his list.

Noah: All right, I’ll stop persecuting you.

Kat: Obviously, I mean… no, it’s fine. Feel free. Bring it on.

Noah: Well, our next comment is also about Thestrals. And this is from…

Micah: Skgai!

Noah: Skgai. Skgai, what a… all right.

“Thestals are perfect symbols in this book. In this chapter Harry see things that have been there all the time but that he can only now see. This is the exact opposite of the events at the end of the book. Harry learns that even though Sirius can no longer be seen he will still always be with him. The Thestrals give us a visual example of this idea from Jo so that we may perhaps understand her point in the end. Thestrals are so connected to Sirius. They both represent immediate death. They are both unwilling to be caged (Hagrid seems to be the only one who has domesticated the species. And still it[‘]s a symbiotic relationship.) They are both experts when called to action.”

Eric: Now I think Harry should have retired with a Thestral named Sirius by his side. I like the connection between…

Noah: Ride, Sirius, ride!

Eric: I guess we could say it was really the Grim [that] keeps being pointed out. And all the examples of people looking grimly. I think you get a few more in this chapter. And Thestrals. Sirius is leaving this world, and the Thestrals being examples of you having witnessed people leaving this world… it’s a very interesting connection there.

Kat: Yeah, the only part of the comment I disagree with is where it says they both represent immediate death because I don’t think that’s true because I think Thestrals, obviously, with Harry at least…

Eric: Yes!

Kat: … it takes a while for him to see them.

Noah: Yeah, that was a long conversation.

Eric: We talked about that. It takes…

Noah: That was an Eric… Eric, we’ll just…

Kat: I know!

Eric: … [unintelligible] it serves the plot, and I think that’s what works here.

Noah: “When does the death fully sink in?” I believe, was the trick. My guess was that… Micah, so here’s an interesting question for you, and this is going to be… answer it quickly: After somebody dies, how long does it take to actually see the Thestrals? Would you be able to see the Thestral[s] immediately, or does it take some time?

Micah: I’m not J.K. Rowling…

Eric: Man, you’re not a mom, you’re not J.K. Rowling…

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Kat: I was going to say… [laughs]

Noah: Poor you!

Micah: No, how long…?

Kat: Disappointed.

Micah: … does it take? I… well, going back to the end of Goblet of Fire, I mean, is the…? And I can’t recall off the top of my head, so I apologize in advance, but is there any instance where Harry gets into carriages…?

Noah: Yes.

Micah: … that are horse-drawn?

Eric: He can’t see them.

Micah: He can’t see them, right?

Noah and Kat: Right.

Micah: So I think it needs to become real for Harry first. I mean, I still think he was in a very high state of shock when he was leaving Hogwarts at the end of Book 4. And now, since he’s had the summer, and he’s experienced all that he’s gone through with these nightmares, and he is now back at the school, he’s able to have a better understanding of death. And I think that it’s become more real for him, and so that is what enables him to see these creatures. It’s also a clever plot device by J.K. Rowling to connect him with Luna as a character…

Eric: That’s right!

Micah: … and establish this relationship early on…

Eric: Almost in spite of himself.

Micah: … between the two of them.

Noah: Yeah, I mean, that makes sense.

Eric: Well, this was a Podcast Question of the Week from ages ago, so we shouldn’t get into that any further.

Kat: Mhm.

Eric: We got some excellent responses, which can still be seen on the Alohomora! website and on the forums for that particular Podcast Question of the Week, which… yeah, that was a good question to get Micah to weigh in on.

Noah: That’s true. I just thought it was interesting.

Eric: Yeah.

Kat: It’s a great question, yeah. And speaking of the Podcast Question of the Week, we’re going to read some responses from last week’s question, which I believe was one of Laura’s questions, and it was “The series focuses on Gryffindor, but we have gotten a lot of information about all of the houses outside of the books, such as on Pottermore and from interviews with Rowling. For example, Rowling tells us that many Slytherins are good, but yet, she doesn’t show us many good Slytherins in the books. Does Rowling show well-rounded views of each house in the books, or do the characters we see exhibit more stereotypical house qualities? As one of the only major Ravenclaws in the series, is Luna’s lovable eccentric qualities an accurate representation of her house, or does she give readers a limited view of Ravenclaws?”

Micah: Can I…?

Kat: So as you can imagine there [were] a ton of comments. Yeah, go ahead, weigh in.

Micah: So I mean, I know there’s not an overwhelming amount of good Slytherins, right? But Snape certainly stands out, even though it takes a while for his true colors to show, and…

Noah: He’s kind of a jerk, though.

Micah: He is kind of a jerk, but it doesn’t mean that you can’t be an inherently good person. He had a lot of emotonal issues going on. I mean, I think that’s fair to say, right? And then also Slughorn, right?

Eric: Hmm.

Micah: He is a Slytherin?

Kat: Mhm.

Micah: And he is very much a beloved character, at least I think he is. He was a good character for me to read, in Half-Blood Prince and beyond, and I think that a lot of people enjoy him, so…

Noah: But he’s kind of mean. Not mean. He’s kind of…

Micah: No, no, no.

Noah: … [unintelligible] likes students, and it’s only to inflate his ego.

Micah: Well, Dumbledore… but I think you could… look, if you want to look at that as a flaw, I think you could look at almost any character in the series and pick apart their flaws.

Noah: Yeah. That’s true.

Micah: And so I think with Slughorn maybe that’s the one thing, you look, yeah, he’s got a little bit of an ego, and he likes to really tout out his own qualities and the people [whom] he collects, but I still think that he is a Slytherin that people very much enjoy, and I think that maybe the list ends there. I’m probably forgetting some, but that’s just what jumped to mind, at least for the first part of that question. I know she goes on to ask about Ravenclaw.

Kat: About Luna, yeah. Actually, our guest from last week, SaiyanGirl, who – Noah, you missed – she was a good guest.

Noah: Yeah, I was sad. [unintelligible] Good stuff, SaiyanGirl.

Kat: Oh, good. She threw in the Dragon Ball Z comment for you.

Micah: [laughs] I have a lot to live up to, apparently.

Kat:

Yeah. Obviously. But anyway her comment says:

“I wouldn’t say she gives us a limited view of Ravenclaw, since we see a lot of Ravenclaws that are more grounded than Luna is (like Terry Boot, Cho Chang, Padma Patil, Michael Corner, and Anthony Goldstein). This actually always led me to believe that contrary to what Pottermore states about Ravenclaws, she really was the odd one out. It did appear that she was bullied by her fellow Ravenclaws, and there have been other occasions in the series when Ravenclaws turned out to be surprisingly judgemental (e.g. when Harry was chosen as Hogwarts Champion in GoF through no fault of his own). She always made me wonder where the other Ravenclaws like her were, though – some of the ones portrayed in the series seemed more unsociable and detached than in possession of the otherworldly, creative quality Luna portrays.”

Noah: Wow, that was just really well written.

Kat: It was, and I will say that, as a Ravenclaw, I am definitely judgmental. I’ll totally own up to that…

[Sound of clapping]

Kat: It’s true. Hey, I don’t hide it. [laughs] I’m a pretty honest person in general and I’m not afraid to say that I judge people. So I actually agree with this comment. I think it’s – like you said – very well written.

Noah: What about Terry Boot? Do we really have evidence that Terry Boot is grounded? Because I think he is only ever mentioned once.

Eric: I think his boots are firmly on the ground.

Kat: I barely remember anything about that guy, so I don’t even know if I could comment on Terry Boot.

Eric: He’s the most grounded of them all.

Noah: So challenge to the listeners: What’s up with Terry Boot? What’s going on?

Eric: Just Lexicon him. Come on.

Kat: Where do we even read about Terry Boot?

Noah: And then go in-depth a little bit…

Kat: No.

Noah: … once you Lexicon, extrapolate a little bit, fan fiction style.

[Kat laughs]

Eric: [singing] Where in the world is Terry Boot?

Kat: Where is Terry Boot in the books? Our next comment here comes from AccioPotassium. It says,

“As a Ravenclaw myself, the Ravenclaw house has always been the house of the fundamental teachings of logic. The house [that] believes that the mind is stronger than barbaric strength [in] almost every situation. The house [that] embodies the idea to try to discover as much information about the amazing world around us, and to base our ideas upon logical reasoning. The Ravenclaw house does not believe in what one feels, but […] in ideas [that] are supported by factual and testable evidence. Luna Lovegood obviously doesn’t follow all my listed perceptions, but what makes Luna a true Ravenclaw is her ability to think differently compared [with] her peers, and her personality seems to challenge past beliefs on long standing concepts. So in some ways she is a noble poster child of Ravenclaw, but maybe not in her logical reasoning in all of her beliefs of this very strange magical world.”

Eric: I like that we are introduced to Luna. It’s sort of the first Ravenclaw, I think, that we pay attention to – at least, I’m speaking from my own personal experience – and that she’s the odd one out. We are met with this just odd girl who doesn’t necessarily embody all of what we would see as the traditional traits, but as AccioPotassium points out, her penchant for thinking differently is actually the big thing.

Micah: That was a good word.

Micah and Noah: Penchant.

Kat: I know.

Micah: And the way you said it, too.

Noah: Now, this sort of speaks to a… I have an issue with AccioPotassium because the Ravenclaw description here is very much like Spock and Vulcans.

Eric: Yeah, I thought about that, too. [laughs]

Noah: As I thought you might. And my question is – and this goes back to our Sorting Hat discussion – but are Ravenclaws actually smart? Or do they just value intelligence?

Eric: Yes, look, they have to be smart if they want to get into their dormitories at night, okay? Unless that answer to the riddle, “A circle has no beginning…”

Micah: Otherwise its walk of shame time.

Eric: … can be used on all of their riddles, which would be quite easy. Yes, I don’t think you get into that house without possessing some wits about you. I like that AccioPotassium has really got me to think about Ravenclaws and the scientific method which is based in logic and discovery, logic, discovery, all tied in with the greatest developments in human history.

Noah: But, is Luna necessarily illogical? Because doesn’t she often…

Eric: Luna is way illogical. She’s reading books upside down. She’s putting on glasses. She has her own way of investigating the world around her. Yeah.

Micah: She’s just different. She approaches things differently. It doesn’t make it right or wrong.

Eric: Well, that’s the thing is…

Noah: Maybe she approaches things differently in a smart way.

Eric: Yeah, she’s not stupid. She’s just thinking of things that are… She’s still thinking a lot. It’s just she’s thinking different, unconventional thoughts.

Micah: Yeah, but there is a word that was used here which was “outcast,” and I think you can make an argument, though, that she’s not the only outcast within the different houses that we see. You can almost make an argument at times that Neville is an outcast in Gryffindor.

Eric: Yeah.

Noah: Right. I was going to say…

Micah: And going back in time, we don’t see Snape’s interaction, really, with the rest of Slytherin house, but based on the treatment that he receives from James and the Marauders, you can assume that he’s a bit of an outcast as well.

Eric: Wow.

Micah: I don’t know that he follows in line. Sorry that I don’t have a Hufflepuff example because I don’t think we see…

Eric: Yeah, I was going to say, “Find me a Hufflepuff outcast,” because… yeah.

Micah: Yeah, we don’t see enough of them to really pinpoint one, but I think that there’s outcasts in each of the different houses.

Noah: That’s because they’re all welcoming to each other, of course.

[Kat laughs]

Micah: Yeah, but I think that all of this ties really well into the discussion I’m sure were going to have in a little bit, especially with the Sorting Hat’s song…

Eric: Yeah.

Micah: … and I think it’s not just about having one quality or a series of qualities. It’s about all of these different houses embodying different things that are important.

Noah: What about Harry for Gryffindor, too, to some extent?

Micah: Being an outcast?

Noah: He’s popular but he’s still, maybe, different on some levels.

Micah: Well, he’s very much an outcast, especially in this book.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Micah: Maybe “outcast” is too strong of a word, but he’s definitely isolated…

Noah: Mhm.

Micah” … and it starts earlier on in this book but it really starts toward the end of this chapter.

Eric: Yeah.

Kat: And that feeds into a comment that we got from EllieCanFly. That’s a cute username. It says,

“Humans naturally like to categorize people, so what Jo writes about in terms of houses definitely reflects the way society likes to see things in black and white terms. Making assumptions about people before we know them is one of the horrible things about our culture, so the very idea of putting eleven year olds into groups based on what the sorting hat sees in their personality strikes me as a very wrong thing to do. People can definitely change[;] as Dumbledore professes, it is down to our choices. I think that people would be influenced by being put in a certain house and subconsciously absorb some of the traits [that] they might have not had in the first place.”

Eric: Well, the thing with this is that you’ve got a magic hat. Okay? You have a magic hat who doesn’t know you, who has never met you before, so he’s not biased. He’s looking into your brain and pulling what he sees, which is magically devised. So I don’t think that he’s necessarily as wrong as this comment would say, because the hat – if we can call him a he – is really seeing these qualities and acting on that insight. Whereas your choices do matter, which, I think is… I don’t want to say it’s a cop-out but it’s just an extra, excess thing in the background that also exists, and causes Harry to be sorted where he is. The hat is magic and the hat knows where you would belong.

Kat: But, isn’t there some validity to this, though, because if somebody is focusing on something – like Harry was – might that not… How deep does the Sorting Hat go, I guess.

Eric: Probably as deep as you can. He can probably see memories, examples of whether you were a fighter or a flighter in confrontation, whether you have been interested by the basic formations of life, whether you were smushing ants or watching them closely.

Micah: Beetles.

Yeah, beetles. [laughs]

Noah: That all sounds very intrusive. Maybe the Sorting Hat is a he?

Eric: The Hat can do this… Oh, Jesus, no, no.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: He’s very penetrative. But…

Kat: Don’t get him started. Don’t egg him on.

Eric: No, but do you know what I’m saying? So I think that the Hat really could see – and this is, there’s not really a basis in the books, because the dialogue between the Hat and Harry is always very colored by what Jo is trying to do with him and Voldemort – but I think that there is something to be said. Ultimately, these kids… We see them having a different experience being placed in a different House than others, but ultimately the experiences are the same. They are going to the same classes. Houses are just a nice way to conveniently segregate them so that they can all fit into a classroom at the same time, where they really don’t have that many different experiences. The case could be made that it’s hard to make friends from different Houses. We don’t really have enough evidence to support that, whether it’s hard or not because nobody else really tries all that much. Luna at least is in Dumbledore’s Army later on, which is founded by the Gryffindors…

Noah: And Padma and Ron go out in the Yule Ball. How about that?

[Eric laughs]

Kat: Well, go out with one another…

Eric: Yeah. The sister made the call on that.

Noah: True.

Kat and Micah: Yeah.

Micah: I think that’s a good point though, Eric. I think that’s one of the first times – Dumbledore’s Army – where we really see students coming together from different Houses, really on the same team. There’s no – at least as far as we know – there’s no Hogwarts Quidditch team where you have the best players from each House competing…

Eric: Oh, all-star, waiting for the all-star… Micah: … together…

Eric: Yep.

Micah: And I think that the point that she makes here – where she says it’s down to our choices – is that even the Sorting Hat can be influenced, right? It takes Harry’s choice into consideration.

Eric: Mhm.

Micah: And that’s the whole reason why – maybe not the whole reason why – but it’s a large part of the reason why. There’s that discussion later on: why did the Hat put him into Gryiffindor? Because he asked it to.

Eric: Well, and similarly you have Dumbledore saying, “I think we sort too soon.” Which really… if you add in the fact that your choices can change the Sorting Hat’s mind, or at least his decision, and you add in the fact that Dumbledore, too, questions the sorting – you really get a whole muddled mess. A puddle of nothing where you can’t really extract any knowledge about what the Sorting Hat is or does, because it’s called into question. So you’re just like, it is what you want it to be. It’s as smart or as not smart as you feel it should be when probing the minds of these kids.

Noah: But, Eric, isn’t it possible that Dumbledore is suggesting that Snape might have chosen Gryffindor later in life?

Eric: How do you mean?

Noah: I mean…

Kat: Ah, no… yes, but no. He would have never chosen Gryiffindor.

Noah: I still feel that – what Micah was saying – that the choice seems to be very important…

Eric: Mhm.

Noah: … maybe there are more choices than we realize. We just saw Harry’s head, but what if everyone chooses and that’s the secret?

Eric: Well then there’s no sorting, yeah. If everybody just gets to chose the House then it’s a popularity…

Kat: Right.

Eric: … contest and nobody gets picked into Hufflepuff.[laughs]

Noah: Well, yeah.

Kat: I bet that is not true. I bet there are plenty of people who would pick Hufflepuff…

Eric: Yeah, just to avoid the wars between Gryffindor and Slytherin.

Noah: Or the people who just are too confused, or they like all the Houses.

Kat: Right.

Eric: Or they choke on the… What is it?…

Kat: Well…

Eric: … the Floo Powder and they accidentally say, [imitates choking] “Diagon Alley.”

Kat: Right. [laughs]

Eric: … instead of Gryffindor or Slytherin.

Kat: Well, we have one final comment here to wrap up this – I guess – wrap up. It’s from RebeccaTheRavenclaw and it is in response to something that Hufflepug says…

[Eric and Noah laugh]

Kat: Yeah, it’s a cute name. It says,

“Rather than viewing each house as a single personality trait (you either have it or you don’t) it is better to view the houses as scales of various degrees spanning from one end to the other (i.e. Ravenclaw: logical to creative). It gives a much rounder and fuller view of the house as a whole. I also think you can put a positive or negative spin on each house’s attributes, depending on your own views and opinions. Slytherin’s cunning nature is not inherently negative, it is just the perspective we get through Harry.”

Noah: I disagree with the logical to creative spectrum. It’s logical to irrational.

Kat: Hmm, I would disagree with that, but we could probably go on with this forever.

Noah: Why do you disagree?

Kat: Because I don’t think that being… I don’t think irrational is a…

Noah: Isn’t that the opposite of logical? Or maybe emotional versus logical?

Kat: I don’t know, what is the opposite of logical?

Eric Illogical. [laughs]

Kat: Illogical? Yeah. Exactly. Not irrational. They’re very different.

Noah: Irrational and illogical.

Micah: Yeah.

Noah: If rational… how, though? Rationality is like logic, is it not?

Kat: All right, do you want me to read definitions to you?

Noah: Yes.

Kat: Let’s see. Okay. Let me define them first – hold on – I’m going to get actual…

[Noah hums the Jeopardy theme]

Eric: You know, this is covered in this chapter, guys. This is… at least in terms of how it relates to the Houses.

Noah: Because I find myself creative and logical.

Eric: Oh, you have… I think, in order to be creative, you have to set a little bit of… you have to feel and a lot of feeling is not about logic.

Kat: Well, unfortunately, this is proving me wrong because the definition of irrational is not logical. [laughs]

Noah: Oh, snap.

Kat: And a synonym is illogical.

Noah: I guess I’m a Ravenclaw.

Kat: Yeah. I view them as – no – very differently.

Eric: Oh, being irrational versus being illogical? Oh, something you can rationalize…

Kat: Yeah, but…

Eric: … would truly have its basis in logic, but you can rationalize a whole lot that isn’t logical. So I can see were the confusion would be.

Kat: Yeah. Right.

Micah: I just like what they said about putting either a positive or a negative spin on each House’s attributes. If you give me a second here, it reminds me of something from Game of Thrones where there’s a line about there’s good and evil on every side in every war. It’s not always good versus evil, and I feel [like] it’s kind of the same here. It’s not just that it’s one defining trait for a House – it may just be that that trait or that series of traits seems to be more… it seems to stand out more in that person, at least at that time, than the others and that’s why they’re being sorted into these Houses. But they don’t necessarily need to be viewed as being positive traits or negative traits, and that’s what they kind of get into at the end, talking about Slytherin’s cunning nature not necessarily being inherently negative. It’s just that that’s how it’s perceived through the one person’s perspective that we’re reading this story through.

Eric: Well, something that it reminds me of, really, talking about Houses, and the good thing is that all of this discussion is relevant and serves very successfully, I think, to introduce this coming chapter. But what it reminds me of is, I believe, what we call the four temperaments or the four humors, which is a proto-psychological theory that suggests that there are four fundamental personality types and they are: sanguine, which is pleasure-seeking and sociable; choleric, which is ambitious and leader-like; melancholic, which is analytical and quiet; and phlegmatic, which is relaxed and peaceful. Most formulations include possibility of mixtures of the types. So these four humors, as I once learned, are quite popular and pretty much any group of four that you find in literature tend to have a great basis for comparison verses these four humors. Ninja Turtles are actually a really good example of these four different ones, but…

Noah: The truth is everyone loves pizza.

Eric: [laughs] They all like pizza, so they’re really not all bad.

[Kat laughs]

Eric: I would really hate the Slytherins if they didn’t like pizza, but I think it applies to the Hogwarts Houses as well. You could say that the ambitious ones would be… the choleric would be Sytherin, relaxed and peaceful would be Hufflepuff, analytical and quiet would be Ravenclaw, and pleasure-seeking and sociable could be Gryffindor, if I said that right. So looking into it… this is like a historical… throughout history you have been able to break psychology into four different personality types, or at least it’s been done before into four personality types that are kind of shared by each of these Hogwarts Houses. I’m not saying that Jo saw Ninja Turtles and said, “That’s a great idea,” but it goes back to the Greeks, the four humors. If you just want to search the four humors, you can find out more information.

Micah: I think it boils down to this: These kids are going to school; they needed to be separated because there'[re] only so many bed[s] in each wing, right? So look, they need to sleep somewhere, and that’s it. End of story.

Eric: [laughs] Well, like I said before, fitting into classrooms…

Micah: We’ve taken it down to the most basic level, this is Hogwarts Houses Analyzed 101, and we’ve…

Noah: Didn’t Dumbledore say something about doing what was easy?

Eric: Well, as we learn in this chapter, Noah, it came from four different personality types of each of the founders of Hogwarts who had four different views as to [which] students they should accept. So it’s interesting… I mean, we’re kind of meta-critiquing it… there are only four personalities in this world, but also those four personalities were embodied by each of the four founders of the Houses, and that is why you get these four distinct types of individuals being trained at the same school but in their own individual Houses, spending time with their like-minded people.

Micah: I have a question. I know we want to get to this chapter and it all kind of ties in, but do you think anybody has ever transferred Houses?

Eric: That’s a good question. [laughs]

Kat: Oh, I don’t know.

Eric: I think… you must be able to flunk out of Ravenclaw, right?

Kat: I don’t know.

Noah: You just can’t get into the common room.

Eric: [laughs] You start becoming part of the secret fifth house of Hogwarts, which is like the…

Noah: Run by Argus Filch, yeah, who keeps kids locked in chains in the dungeon.

Eric: Riffraff House.

Kat: They’re Divergent.

Noah: “Let us out! It’s been years. Please.”

Kat: Hmm, I don’t know. That’s interesting. That’s a good thought.

Eric: Maybe if you write a letter to Dumbledore. That seems to be the whole solution, ask Dumbledore.

Kat: Aww.

Micah: You know what? You know what I’m going to do? Okay… it’s very well-known that I do not follow J.K. Rowling on Twitter.

Noah: Why?

Micah: And this might shock people…

Eric: She’s started to tweet now. I know we don’t have MuggleCast to talk about this, but…

Micah: I was made aware of this fact, yes.

Eric: She’s tweeted like every day now.

Micah: I’m going to ask her this question, and I think it’s a good question, and I hope that I get an answer.

Kat: Do it!

Micah: And if she actually answers me, I will follow her.

Noah: Okay.

Kat: Okay. We will all retweet you, and everybody listening will retweet you, and maybe she’ll see it like a lot of times.

Eric: I’m not going to agree to retweeting him until I hear his question. [laughs]

Micah: What, no…

Kat: That’s the changing House question.

Eric: Oh. Well, that’s a good question then. I’ll retweet that.

Kat: Yeah. Ditto.

Micah: There we go.

Noah: Can MuggleNet retweet it?

Kat: Do it. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. We’re going to retweet the heck out of it.

Eric: We’re going to get on to that. But…

Kat: We’re going to get her to answer.

Eric: … apart from our tweet assault of J.K. Rowling, which will be taking place immediately following the recording of this episode…

[Kat laughs]

Eric: … we have our chapter discussion, which is Chapter 11. Michael will take it from here.

[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11 intro begins]

The Sorting Hat: For our Hogwarts is in danger…

Grubbly-Plank: Chapter 11.

The Sorting Hat: … from external, deadly foes.

Grubbly-Plank: “The Sorting Hat’s New Song.”

Umbridge: Hem, hem.

[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 11 intro ends]

Eric: So now we’re talking about Chapter 11. There is kind of an interesting point. It plays very much in the background during the rest of the events of this chapter, but in the very beginning of the chapter, Ginny brings up Grubbly-Plank and they see Grubbly-Plank and she’s like, “What’s that woman doing here?” They notice as they get to the Great Hall in this chapter that Hagrid is still not back, and they don’t know how they feel about this. But as they’re getting on the carriage, Luna makes a no-no. She makes a mistake. She states, “I will be quite glad if he has left; he is not a very good teacher, is he?” And immediately Harry and Ron and Ginny, I think, all say, “Yes, he is!” And Hermione quite comically actually… I guess probably agrees with Luna until Harry gives her the stink eye and then she’s like, “Uh, yes he is.” And Luna, poor little Luna who has just met this group, has to defend herself but she says, “Well, us Ravenclaws do not think that he is a good teacher.” So Hagrid…

Micah: And they should.

Noah: With good reason.

Micah: Yeah.

Eric: Well, are we on the Ravenclaws’ side then? I mean, here [are] Ravenclaws who seek knowledge and apparently Hagrid is not delivering that for them.

Kat: You know what? I would have a freaking blast in Hagrid’s class. I don’t even care. I would have so much fun in that class.

Noah: You say that, but you would not enjoy the Flobberworms.

Kat: That’s not true. I very well might.

Eric: The Blast-Ended Skrewts.

Kat: I don’t know. I’ve never met a Flobberworm.

Noah: But Luna is not wrong here. Hagrid is know by all, in my opinion, a terrible teacher. He’s able to show them…

Kat: Well…

Noah: … how to play with the creatures and they can learn stuff about them. But they can read that in the book without… but the practical courses are very impractical in that they are often in danger, they often become very dirty. I mean the dirty is okay, but that’s…

Micah: The dirty is okay? No, but I think that he exposes them to creatures that they probably otherwise wouldn’t have that level of exposure to because he is so willing to take these creatures in and not really afraid of them at the end of the day. He tries to see the good in all these creatures. It starts all the way back in Sorcerer’s Stone.

Noah: That’s right.

Micah: I think that for plot points, there’s always some sort of tie to these creatures that he’s taking care of or that he’s “teaching” about in his class. It serves a larger point; they somehow come into play because, as we know, J.K. Rowling is so good at incorporating that into her storytelling. And…

Eric: Right.

Micah: As far as being an actual good teacher, I kind of agree with Kat. It’s a class that you probably always want to go to because you know you’re going to laugh or you’re going to have fun or it’s just going to be easy to get by. I don’t think he’s qualified to teach a class at Hogwarts…

Eric: Hmm.

Micah: … if I’m being completely honest.

Kat: No.

Micah: And I think that Luna is right, and that is the Ravenclaw coming out in her, and she points out the fact that others have stated that. But I think the Slytherins would say that… it’s hard because we know how Malfoy feels about Hagrid, but that’s more of a personal thing…

Eric: Right.

Micah: … and less of an actual… evaluating him as a teacher. I mean, Luna may think great things about Hagrid as a person, but she’s able to distinguish between him as a person and him as a teacher, whereas I think Malfoy or Crabbe, Goyle, anybody in the Slytherin House, just looks at him as a big oaf and dislikes him across the board.

Noah: Yeah.

Kat: Well, and the same for I guess Harry and Ron. They see Hagrid as awesome because he’s their friend and all of that…

Eric: Yeah.

Kat: … so they don’t care what kind of teacher he is.

Micah: And Hermione can also…

Kat: Same thing.

Micah: … distinguish. She’s kind of like Luna…

Kat: Right.

Micah: … where she sees him as being a good person, but not necessarily as a good teacher.

Kat: Right.

[Eric laughs]

Noah: Well, she was almost a hatstall.

Micah: I was a hatstall.

Eric: Ooh.

Noah: So was I. Maybe [unintelligible].

Micah: Three of four. Three of four on the show right now were hatstalls?

Noah: We’re just so [unintelligible].

Micah: Eric, you were not a hatstall?

Eric: No, I was not a hatstall.

Micah: You were a badger?

Kat: I wasn’t a hatstall.

Micah: Oh, all right.

Eric: No, I agree that Hermione is able to distinguish, and I think she’s… going back to Book 3, she’s pretty relieved as well when Grubbly-Plank… I think she says something like, “It’s a nice change of pace from Hagrid’s classes,” when he has that moment of time when he’s not teaching. But on to the next point, of course, they do get to the Great Hall. Dumbledore solves, I guess, the mystery because he introduces Grubbly-Plank as being this year’s Care of Magical Creatures…

Noah: Wait, Eric, I don’t mean to break in – I do mean to break in – what kind of name is Grubbly-Plank?

Eric: Well, it’s…

Kat: [laughs] An awesome one.

Eric: Grubbly-Plank, from the Irish “grubbly plank,” is…

[Kat and Noah laugh]

Micah: That sounds more French, but go ahead.

Eric: Yeah. Sorry, I’m confusing my French and Irish. No, I think grubbly, grubby, grubworm kind of is where I go…

Noah: It sounds like probably a Pokémon. It just goes around, “Grubbly-Plank! Grubbly-Plank!”

Eric: [laughs] Yes and no. Maybe she draws on people’s faces if they fall asleep in her classes.

Noah: “Jigglypuff!”

Eric: I think it’s meant to be earthy…

Kat: Didn’t we get…

Eric: It’s meant to be earthy, as in a plank of wood maybe in a garden somewhere where there are grubs. I imagine it’s just a very earthen name. I bet she was a Hufflepuff, too. Just throwing that out there. So Grubbly-Plank is the Care of Magical Creatures teacher. Dumbledore doesn’t say for how long, and Ron speculates what we later find out to be true, which is that maybe Hagrid isn’t back from his mission, that thing he was doing over the summer for Dumbledore.

Micah: But the lights were out. That should have been an instant giveaway that nobody was home.

Eric: Yeah, Harry is looking over, trying to check it out while he’s on his little horse and buggy ride, little carriage ride.

Noah: Meanwhile, no one is feeding Fang. Fang is starving to death.

[Eric laughs]

Noah: Well, this is the Sorting Hat singing as…

Eric: I’m just going to imagine you in your cubicle when you do this.

Noah: Ooh, I should probably… [as the Sorting Hat]

“In times of old when I was new
And Hogwarts barely started
The founders of our noble school
Thought never to be parted:
United by a common goal,
They had the selfsame yearning,
To make the world’s best magic school
And pass along their learning.
‘Together we will build and teach!’
The four good friends decided
And never did they dream that they
Might someday be divided,
For were there such friends anywhere
As Slytherin and Gryffndor?
Unless it was the second pair
Of Huffepuff and Ravenclaw?
So how could it have gone so wrong?
How could such friendships fail?
Why, I was there and so can tell
The whole sad, sorry tale.
Said Slytherin, ‘We’ll teach just those
Whose ancestry is purest.’
Said Ravenclaw, ‘We’ll teach those whose
Intelligence is surest.’
Said Gryffindor, ‘We’ll teach all those
With brave deeds to their name,’
Said Hufflepuff, ‘I’ll teach the lot,
And treat them just the same.’
These differences caused little strife
When first they came to light,
For each of the four founders had
A House in which they might
Take only those they wanted, so,
For instance, Slytherin
Took only pure-blood wizards
Of great cunning, just like him,
And only those of sharpest mind
Were taught by Ravenclaw
While the bravest and the boldest
Went to daring Gryffindor.
Good Hufflepuff she took the rest,
And taught them all she knew,
Thus the Houses and their founders
Retained friendships firm and true.
So Hogwarts worked in harmony
For several happy years,
But then discord crept among us
Feeding on our faults and fears.
The Houses that, like pillars four,
Had once held up our school,
Now turned upon each other and,
Divided, sought to rule.
And for a while it seemed the school
Must meet an early end,
What with dueling and with fighting
And the clash of friend on friend
And at last there came a morning
When old Slytherin departed
And though the fighting then died out
He left us quite downhearted.
And never since the founders four
Were whittled down to three
Have the Houses been united
As they once were meant to be.
And now the Sorting Hat is here
And you all know the score:
I sort you into Houses
Because that is what I’m for,
But this year I’ll go further,
Listen closely to my song:
Though condemned I am to split you
Still I worry that it’s wrong,
Though I must fulfill my duty
And must quarter every year
Still I wonder whether sorting
May not bring the end I fear.
Oh, know the perils, read the signs,
The warning history shows,
For our Hogwarts is in danger
From external, deadly foes
And we must unite inside her
Or we’ll crumble from within.
I have told you, I have warned you….
Let the Sorting now begin.”

[Sound of applause]

Noah: Thank you. Thank you, everyone. I didn’t realize there were so many people! Oh wow! Oh wow, this is great! I’d like to thank my mom and dad…

Eric: Encore! One more song! One more song!

[Kat laughs]

Eric: Wow.

Micah: Wow. Just end the show right there.

Eric: Yeah. We’re done. Goodbye, everyone.

Micah: I don’t know how we could even move forward.

[Kat laughs]

Eric: So we got this notion that really, if you have brave deeds to your name, or your intelligence is surest, or if you have pure blood, you’re in one of the three houses; and if you don’t, you’re in Hufflepuff.

Kat: There has to be non pure-bloods in Slytherin.

Noah: I mean, Voldemort.

Eric: Oh, I’m sure there are. But I mean, fundamentally… let’s say that perhaps back then there weren’t pure-bloods in Slytherin.

Kat: I don’t know. That’s kind of a BS trait.

Noah: That’s why I’m saying it comes back down to values. If you value pure blood, then you go into Slytherin, but you don’t necessarily have to have pure blood. Just like you don’t necessarily have to be intelligent; you just have to value intelligence…

Eric: I suppose that’s true, and also it doesn’t speak as much about personality because the people of pure-blood could be any personality type. But I think what it’s meant to show – I mean, this happened a thousand years ago – that…

Kat: Wow.

Eric: … what?

Kat: Good rhyme.

Eric: Did it? Did I rhyme?

Kat: Mhm.

Eric: I caught it. J.K. Rowling… it’s catchy. She would make a great rapper. You could rap this Sorting Hat…

Kat: Oh, lord. Jo, you hear that?

Eric: You know she can rhyme; her songs are the best.

Micah: J.K. Rollins?

Noah: That YouTube video did get a lot of…

Eric: [laughs] J.K. Rollins keeps rollins, rollins, rollins… J. Row.

Noah: Rollin’, rollin’, ow!

Eric: Anyway.

Kat: [laughs] Oh God.

Eric: No, but it’s just interesting to see, yet again, another commentary on how the horses… [laughs] how the horses?

Micah: The horses?

[Kat laughs]

Eric: There are four horses of the apocalypse. I’m not sure if they fit the personality or…

Micah: No, do not even try and tie this into our discussion.

Eric: Yeah, no. The four houses. Okay, we were talking about this. The interesting thing here is that the Sorting Hat is second guessing himself; he’s second guessing his purpose. Somebody at the staff table is like, “Man, oh man, he’s put himself out of a job quick if he keeps guessing himself.” But it’s for a cause, right?

Noah: Eric, who told the Sorting Hat that Hogwarts was in danger? How does that the Sorting Hat know? And is the Sorting Hat a “he”, like you said before?

Eric: Well, that gets questioned in this chapter. Not the “he” or “she” or “Sorting Hat”; it’s a hat.

Micah: It’s because he hangs out in Dumbledore’s office.

Eric: Yeah, and that’s said in this chapter.

Kat: And I was wondering about that. I was going to ask: Do you think they have conversations?

Eric: I don’t think they have conversations…

Micah: Well, who else is he going to talk to in his office?

Eric: Well, the Sorting Hat was Godric Gryffindor’s hat – Godric Gryffindor’s own hat – which he at some point enchanted, and I believe it’s said that he only enchanted the Sorting Hat after he was to die or leave the school. I like to think of this sort of duo of Godric and his hat on the road, on horseback, having these great conversations about life. But I think the hat was really… I think it’s in a previous song where it is said that he plucked it off his head and bestowed it with magical gifts. But I think they probably talk to each other, Dumbledore and the hat. Maybe Dumbledore wears the hat and it is another form of figuring things out.

Kat: And is fabulous. [snaps fingers]

Eric: Yeah.

Noah: Pretending to be Godric? Just alone in his office?

Eric: But interestingly… we’re talking about Godric Gryffindor, but Nearly Headless Nick really is able to shed the most light on the Sorting Hat and this comes from Nicholas – having been dead for 500 or so years – has witnessed the Sorting Hat do this sort of thing before. So Harry, Ron, and Hermione are a little shocked and a little taken aback, and all the students are talking. They’re like, “Well, what just happened here?” And as it turns out, the Sorting Hat stepped beyond his own boundaries, and he even said he would in the little speech, but he has begun to issue a warning to the students. And Nick says that he has done this before. Nick actually says, here’s a quote, “The hat feels itself honor-bound to give the school due warning whenever it feels…” and then he’s cut off. He says he has “heard the hat give several warnings before, always at times when it detects periods of great danger for the school and always, of course, its advice is the same: Stand together. Be strong from within.” So the Sorting Hat is kind of a… he’s only got one tune to sing, as it turns out. It is always, apparently, this message to stick together, but it’s an important message and it’s certainly one that’s super important at the beginning of this book, at the beginning of this school year… wouldn’t you say?

Micah: Yes.

Kat: Mhm.

Micah: And, well, it…

Noah: I… sorry.

Micah: Well, no, I was just going to say… and it precedes Umbridge, which is a moment where you can tell that there’s going to be some division that’s going to be created throughout the course of the school year because you have another Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher who has arrived at Hogwarts. And we always know that they’re somewhat of a polarizing figure based on what’s happened in previous books. And I think, knowing as little as we do on Umbridge right now, from the trial earlier in the book and knowing that she’s now with the school, she is here on behalf of the Ministry and I think that that’s more or less what the Sorting Hat is alluding to; that the school itself is going to need to come together, not only because there’s meddling from the government, but there’s also the very real possibility that Voldemort has returned.

Eric: Mmm.

Kat: Oh, that’s a good point. I never thought about the whole Umbridge angle with the Sorting Hat.

Eric: Yeah, I mean… does Umbridge really try to separate houses from each other? Or compete against the school? I guess in some way she does later; with her Inquisitorial Squad, we notice that a disproportionate amount are Slytherins.

Micah: Of course, yeah.

Noah: What house was she in? Do we know this?

Kat: I don’t know if we know. I’ll look.

Micah: Probably Slytherin.

Noah: My instinct is Slytherin but I’m probably just Slyther-typing…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: But no, I mean… and the reason why I tie it back into the Sorting Hat – and we mentioned a bit earlier – was that she is the reason why we really see, for one of the first times, multiple houses coming together for one purpose in Dumbledore’s Army, and I think that that’s how it all works together. The Sorting Hat is saying to beware but the only way to overcome this is to unify. Right?

Eric: Mmm.

Micah: And I could be wrong but I think this is one of the last times we hear from the Sorting Hat, if not the last time we hear from the Sorting Hat. So it has more meaning than just this book and this series of events. It goes beyond that. It goes all the way to Deathly Hallows in terms of unification.

Noah: Even though the war sort of sees multiple houses joining sides against Voldemort, there still seems to be a disconnect between the four houses and they never quite unify. Still, even presumably after several years in the epilogue when they’re still sorting so there’s just… this initial thing goes on and on.

Kat: Umm…

Micah: Yeah. But I’ve always wondered… go ahead.

Kat: No, I was just going to say she’s definitely a Slytherin so… Jo revealed it at a Casual Vacancy event in 2012.

Eric: Hmm.

Kat: So there you go.

Micah: I was just going to say I’ve always wondered that, though, based on the story that we hear in this chapter… will the houses ever really fully unite? Right? Because it doesn’t seem like they have since the founders broke apart…

Eric: Right.

Micah: … and maybe what you need is for heads of house and a headmaster that are going to work extremely hard to make that happen; to make the houses really come together at the end of the day and… but it’s almost like: Is it taboo? Is it a curse because Slytherin walked away and things have never ever been the same since?

Kat: It would be interesting to know if it changed after Voldemort is dead.

Eric: Yeah, that would be an interesting question.

Noah: Because one of the big issues is blood status for Slytherin, so if the wizarding world at large becomes more accepting of muggle-borns and half-bloods…

Kat: Well, not for Slytherins, but for Salazar it was, anyway. Not necessarily for current Slytherins.

Eric: Well, what is it that’s keeping these houses apart from each other? They room separately, they dorm separately; but that’s just what you have to do in a school with a limited number of, as you say, dormitories, and they have to be separated out. But I don’t quite understand exactly and I don’t think we’re meant to understand specifically why these houses haven’t been united in quite the same way since.

Kat: I think it’s just stereotypes over the years. Yeah. Everything gets watered down and it’s like when you fight with somebody and you don’t talk for a while and you suddenly don’t remember why you were fighting. It’s one of those things. It’s just been so long that you’re like, “Oh, okay, whatever.”

Eric: It’s a little cryptic here when the Sorting Hat talks about friend on friend fighting each other, and this is obviously something that happened between Gryffindor and Slyterin who are specifically pointed out as being a pair of closest friends.

Noah: Another point I found interesting – and I know we have to move on – but it was cool that Slytherin and Gryffindor were friends and Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw were, when I thought it was Ravenclaw and Slytherin that often had connections just based on appealing to logic, it seemed, and Hufflepuff and Gryffindor are all about loyalty and something in terms of that.

Eric: Yeah. Hmm, yeah. No, I think that is interesting.

Noah: Goodness. Goodness being between a sense of virtue with Hufflepuff and Gryffindor; verses Ravenclaw and Slytherin, there’s a sense of inevitability of the way things are…

Eric: A sort of pompousness. Yeah.

Noah: Just sort of tap into that.

Eric: No, I would agree with that. Well, we know that the Sorting Hat spends all year coming up with his next song. It’s his only duty, his only job. Wouldn’t be doing his job if he didn’t put some effort into it.

Noah: Presumably he can’t do anything else?

Eric: Yeah, something tells me that that song probably came about due to more recent events. Apart from the Sorting Hat’s song – or speech – we have to endure another speech, and this speech is by Umbridge. And I enjoyed reading this speech more recently. Several of us have probably seen the movie more often than we have read this book. I think the movie does a pretty good job in adapting it. I don’t know if you guys would agree or disagree on that point, but…

Noah: I’d say so.

Kat: Completely agree.

Noah: Imelda does a great job with Umbridge in general.

Kat: Yeah. She’s so amazing and talented and awesome. Yeah.

Eric: And we’re really just introduced into her speech. And I think it’s important that she’s characterized as having interrupted Dumbledore. The teachers appear offended; Harry notices that the teachers appear offended by it. Dumbledore…

Noah: Dumbledore just totally lets it happen.

Eric: Yeah. Maybe for a second he feels interrupted and then he just bows and he compliments Umbridge at the end of it, which is very political, very diplomatic… but a lot of the students as well, it says, talk during her speech and she does not have this instant respect for the students and it makes me wonder if it’s a nice foreshadowing of how she’ll never be able to really be a Dumbledore. She’ll never be able to get full control of the students because she…

Noah: Wait, Eric. Are you suggesting that the Hogwarts student body is sexist?

Eric: No! Why…? No, where did I say that…? No.

Noah: Because Umbridge is a woman, that they’re not…

Kat: [laughs] No.

Eric: No, that’s not sexist. No, it’s not about sex. Look, she interrupts Dumbledore, who everybody loves, although admittedly in this year of Hogwarts not everybody loves Dumbledore. So perhaps my reasoning is flawed. But because he is a position of authority, a headmaster, and he’s being interrupted, he was probably not previously briefed on the fact that she wants to make a speech, and she stands up and that the teachers are unable to hide their own disappointment or frustration or anger about it really gives the kids that blank check or that freedom of discussion. She doesn’t overstep her bounds, I don’t think. Some could argue with her making the speech. But if she notices that the kids are talking over it… and many children are; the girls are talking about her cardigan, or is it Seamus? No, I think it’s Ron who says, “Just don’t make me wear the cardigan.” But she doesn’t demand silence. She doesn’t command the respect and she doesn’t get it from these kids at this point, at this juncture. And it’s a bad first impression, I think, even for people who aren’t sitting there deciphering her opening speech the way that Hermione is.

Kat: I’m pretty sure that it’s Lavender who doesn’t want to wear the cardigan. Not Ron.

Eric: There you go. Oh yeah, Lavender and Parvati are talking about her the whole time.

Micah: She’s very staged, right? It’s very political.

Noah: Incredibly.

Micah: It’s very much what you would expect of somebody who takes their job extremely seriously in a place like the Ministry, and works for somebody like Fudge. And I think that… I don’t remember if in the film exactly they talk over her. Doesn’t Dumbledore ask for silence at one point…?

Eric: Yeah, on her behalf, I think.

Micah: And she just… and then from that point forward she’s able to state what she needs to. But I do think it’s extremely important that Hermione is able to really dig deeper into what is being said than just face value, and I think that’s, in a way, you could argue, a little bit of the Ravenclaw side of her that a lot of people argue she should’ve been sorted into, right? And I think that you see the complete contrast with Harry and Ron who are just dozing off.

Kat: Right, being dense.

Eric: Yeah. [laughs]

Kat: Which they’re both very good at.

Micah: It was brought up before about the interruption, but the fact that somebody who is just a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, right? It’s not like she is deputy headmistress. And she’s coming in to speak, and she’s talking about all of these proper protocols that need to be followed, and she’s addressing the entire student body. We never see anything like that from Moody or Lupin or Lockhart really to that extent.

Eric: Or Quirrell.

Micah: Yeah.

Kat: It’s her self-importance coming, through, is what it is. She thinks that she’s a big head honcho because she’s been put there by the Minister.

Eric: I think that’s it, though; the reason that she does make a speech. It is overstepping in the way that, you’re right, she’s just a Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, whereas secretly she’s really there to spy on Dumbledore.

Kat: Right.

Eric: So giving a speech and not blending in makes her stand out and makes people resist her more naturally, I think. So it’s a bad first day for Umbridge. Of course…

Noah: It only gets better from there.

Eric: … the next chapter is devoted entirely to her, so we will just move on. Before the end of the evening though, and Harry is… everybody’s well-fed by the time Umbridge gets up to speak, and they’re all dreaming of their beds up above, the four-posters of course in the Gryffindor common room. Harry notices that the common room is as welcoming as ever. And he does go into it, although he is left alone by Hermione and Ron who are prefects and have to slowly get everybody else to where they need to go – the First Years for the first time.

Noah: I loved Ron’s comment about “Come on, you midgets!”

[Eric and Kat laugh]

Eric: [as Hermione] “You can’t say that word, Ron.” Yeah. Total…

Kat: And then he calls them “titchy”.

Eric: Titchy? Yeah, it must be a British thing.

Kat: I’m sure it is. It probably means twitchy or…

Noah: Where’s Rosie when you need her?

Eric: [laughs] Maybe she can explain “out of order” as well – “You’re out of order, Seamus.” But Harry gets up and immediately walks in. He gets the feeling that he’s intruding on a discussion between Dean and Seamus. We know Dean and Seamus are friends – Harry gets along with them; he always liked Seamus. But the problem is that Harry has walked in and Seamus had said that his mum almost didn’t want him to to come to school this year. And this develops into the issue that we know, which I think is also particularly well portrayed in the film version. But in general, Harry feels – what’s the word? – discriminated against because basically people are… we know the Daily Prophet is slandering him and making him out to be this giant liar, and same with Dumbledore. And so, people’s parents are not wanting their kids to be influenced by these lies. And knowing that Seamus has to share a bedroom with him has not really been easy on Seamus’s mind, and this is what they were talking about just as Harry walked in.

Kat: And for the record, “titchy” means very small.

Eric: Hmm…

Kat: And “out of order” means you’re being rude.

Eric: Like out of line.

Kat: Yeah, mhm.

Eric: But is Seamus… I mean, Seamus sits in a tough position here. Harry is in a bad position. Nobody’s winning here. Nobody wins this argument. It’s really unfortunate to see that there’s more persecution to be had for Harry, even among… he’s not even safe from it in his own dorm room.

Kat: I par… oh, sorry.

Eric: Oh no, go on.

Kat: I was just going to say that I particularly love when Seamus pulls his curtains closed and he pulls them so hard that they come off the bed.

Eric: They’re crappy curtains, crappy dusty curtains. They never work well anyway.

Kat: I know, but it just… that happens when you’re so mad about something and you’re passionate about it and you’re just so pissed off or whatever.

Eric: Harry’s got his wand at him, too. I mean…

Kat: He does.

Eric: … it’s in the text that Harry is pointing his wand at Seamus. And that’s a pretty big deal, considering… I don’t know, we know how few spells Harry actually knows. But still, he could Jelly Legs Jinx him or something if it came to that.

Kat: Yeah.

Noah: Expelliarmus?

Eric: Hmm…

Kat: [laughs] We do know he loves that one.

Eric: Yeah.

Noah: He loves it.

Eric: But Ron seems to arrive at just the right time to break up what could have been a nastier fight then it was. And Harry goes to bed just feeling not very happy at all, not very glad at all about these parents’… about the situation. And he takes comfort in knowing that perhaps Dumbledore has faced the same persecution that he has and that maybe that’s why Dumbledore isn’t speaking with him.

Kat: And Seamus is very titchy, too.

[Eric and Kat laugh]

Noah: He’s very protective of his mother. He thinks Harry is having a go at his mother. That’s the big one that bothers him.

Eric: Yeah.

Kat: Well, I mean Harry is kind of, isn’t he?

Eric: Well, in the movie it’s worse because he says “Your stupid mum.” But he really just says, “I’ll have a go at anyone who calls me a liar.” And I think that’s fair, it’s fair.

Kat: Absolutely.

Eric: Seamus goes so far as to inquire… he says, “Well, what really did happen at the end of last year?” But…

Noah: Right.

Eric: That’s where it…

Kat: Yeah.

Eric: That’s where it crosses a line, because you’re supposed to already know what happened.

Kat: But why hasn’t… I feel like these guys are his closest friends. So why wouldn’t Harry just be like, “Oh, okay. Well, here’s what happened…”?

Eric: Yeah, and go into it again.

Kat: I mean, at least with the three of them… and Ron.

Eric: Mhm.

Kat: I don’t know, it’s probably because he’s already so agitated, but…

Eric: Yeah.

Noah: He’s already emotional about it. He doesn’t want to relive the memories.

Eric: Another interesting thing that comes out of this little skirmish here is that we find out Dean… we find out for the first time that Dean is Muggle-born. But he says both his parents are Muggles, so they don’t really have an issue with him coming to school because they don’t know about it. And Neville in all of his grandmother’s glory has chosen to cancel her subscription to the Daily Prophet because she feels that it is not Dumbledore who’s losing his way or Harry who’s going crazy, but in fact the darn news media.

Noah: Which is wild because there are like two newspapers.

Eric: I know, what are you going to do? What are you going to do, not get the news anymore?

Kat: I just love it because… I don’t know, I feel like she’s so old-fashioned…

Noah: She’s rogue.

Kat: … and so stuck in her ways about a lot of things. I’m really proud of her for believing in Dumbledore. Actually I’m really proud of her. I think she’s a pretty awesome woman.

Eric: Yeah.

Noah: [as Neville’s grandmother’s] “Thank you, Kat.”

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Oh, boy.

Kat: She’s probably dead by now.

Micah: No, don’t say that. Wasn’t she in the Battle of Hogwarts?

Kat: Yeah, but that happened in 1998.

Micah: Oh, she’s still kicking around.

Kat: Sixteen years later?

Micah: Yeah!

Eric: Wizards live to be…

Noah: You know she’s a wizard…

Eric: Wizards live to be like 150, you know this.

Kat: Oh, that’s true, that’s true.

Micah: Okay. The point I was trying to make was I think this really starts to form the foundation of who Harry can trust, especially as this book goes on. Neville comes to the forefront, Luna to some extent earlier in the chapter and even in the chapter before this. He finds allies in the most unlikely of places and that starts to build the real foundation for Dumbledore’s Army.

Kat: That’s true.

Eric: Yep.

Kat: Can I mention something that we skipped over earlier that I really want to talk about?

Eric: Oh gosh, please.

Kat: It’s just a very brief moment. It’s when they are scanning the room looking to try and find Hagrid. It says that, “Dumbledore had his head tilted towards a woman who was speaking into his ear.” And the woman ends up being Umbridge.

Eric: Mhm.

Kat: So I am really curious as to what they were talking about, that she…

Noah: Like any of those really…

Kat: … would be leaning into him talking into his ear.

Eric: It’s boring stuff, price of tea in China. That kind of stuff.

Noah: They were threats.

Kat: No, come on.

Noah: She was threatening him.

Eric: It’s not interesting, no.

[Kat sighs]

Eric: Yeah, I think all the coolest stuff she says to him is overhead.

Noah: [as Umbridge] “I’d love you to come by and see my kittens.”

[Eric and Kat laugh]

Eric: Well, her “hem-hem” – which we’re introduced to in this chapter, too, since we’re back on Umbridge…

Noah: [as Umbridge] “Mhm!”

Eric: … really just seems to be… and Jim Dale overdoes does it. It’s overdone by Imelda.

Noah: How does he…

Eric: It’s bad in a good way, but it becomes the most annoying character feature of hers. Really, is she just clearing her throat because she needs to make a speech? Because…

Noah: Maybe she has bronchitis.

Eric: I know. I hate to think that this huge thing that we hate her for is really just her trying not to hurt the students’ ears with a raspy… [in a raspy voice] maybe she has got a voice like this, like “Wazowski, you still haven’t filed your paperwork.”

[Everyone laughs]

Kat: No, it is funny, I have a lot of British friends and one British male in particular that I know clears his throat a lot when he talks.

Eric: Okay.

Kat: I mean, a lot. [clears throat repeatedly] All the time.

Eric: [clears throat] Couldn’t it just be like that?

Kat: Maybe. I mean, maybe.

Noah: Is it mucus? Because I do that sometimes. I have chronic sinusitis.

Kat: No, but this is all the time. Every other sentence. [clears throat]

Eric: How weird.

Kat: I don’t know.

Eric: I’m not totally against the evolution of what it has become in the films. [as Umbridge] “Hem-hem! Hem-hem-hem!”

Noah: How does Jim Dale do it? Give us a taste.

Eric: It’s just like that.

Kat: Pretty much like that, it’s really bad. [laughs]

Eric: But bless the guy. And we learn to hate that “hem-hem” because it represents something that sounds sweet but clearly is poisonous.

Kat: Yeah, because Imelda does it more like “Mhm!”, like a little laugh/giggle thing, as opposed to that. But anyway, staying on the topic of Umbridge, our Question of the Week this week revolves around something we touched on very briefly but at a very different angle. So obviously we met her in the last chapter, but we really get to actually meet her in this chapter. And of course she has just been appointed the new Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher, and she gives this – as we talked about – this illuminating speech to staff and students alike. And when I was reading it, I was wondering why is she doing this? Okay, why is she giving this speech, what was it meant to accomplish, and whom is she speaking to? Is she really talking to the students? Is she talking to the teachers? Is she just being introspective? And what did she expect to get out of it, if anything? What was the result supposed to be?

Eric: Mmm, I think she was just stating her territory, peeing on the corners. But we’ll have to see.

Kat: [laughs] Maybe. That’s entirely possible.

Eric: It’s true.

Kat: But let’s have our listeners respond at alohomora.mugglenet.com.

Noah: So, I want to thank Micah Tannenbaum for being our guest on the show this week. It was a great episode. I look forward to the iTunes reviews.

[Kat and Micah laugh]

Kat: People look forward to leaving them, I’m sure.

Micah: Yeah. No, I mean, it’s been great to come back on and I look forward to the fifth appearance. I don’t know when that’s going to be, but it’s always fun coming on and talking with you guys.

Eric: Hey Micah, who would you give the own to? Of this chapter?

Micah: The own of this chapter?

Kat: Wait, I don’t know what you’re talking about.

Noah: This is one of their Game of Owns things.

Eric: I tried to grab… pull over a segment. Yeah, we give… on Game of Owns we give an own to whoever owned the chapter.

Noah: Well, this isn’t Game of Owns. Harry Potter owns on this show.

Kat: What do you mean? So, an own is the person who wins?

Eric: Yeah, the person who wins or does something that is especially special.

Micah: It is a powerful moment, a sarcastic line…

Kat: Cool, okay. Who gets it?

Noah: [unintelligible] You can have it.

Micah: I would… it’s a toss up. I think the Sorting Hat, definitely. And the performance earlier of singing the song…

Eric: Yes, Noah gets our own.

Micah: … that owns the episode. But as far as what owns this chapter, I have to give it to Neville in the end.

Eric: Yeah. Kat, who would you give the own to?

Kat: Oh! I think probably Parvati for the cardigan joke. [laughs]

Eric: Oh. [laughs] Okay, and my own will go to Nearly-Headless Nick who is sitting down and enjoying the welcome feast with his fellow Gryffindors. I mean, how cool is that? I know that people get uncomfortable with him, but he’s able to actually share some history. Ron completely disrespects him [laughs] in true Ron fashion, but it would be really cool to have Nick. And Nick in this chapter claims to be of noble blood, which doesn’t come into play anywhere else.

Noah: He also claims not to be a coward, which we know is not true.

Eric: No, Cadogan is the coward.

Noah: But in a way Nearly-Headless Nick is. Isn’t he cowardly in the end of his… when he dies, there’s something… that’s why he’s a ghost?

Eric: Ooh…

Kat: Well, he was afraid to move on. That’s all.

Noah: So that’s cowardly. How could you say he wasn’t?

Kat: Sure. Let’s not get on this topic.

Eric: No, no, no. But on the whole, really, Nick for spending some time with his housemates.

Kat: And John Cleese.

Eric: And John Cleese! Yes. Owns to everybody!

Noah: Yeah, for John Cleese, everybody.

Eric: Glad we brought that segment over. Well, if you would like to be on Alohomora! as a guest host, there’s a number of ways and a number of methods where you can apply. Those methods can be found at alohomora.mugglenet.com. It’s our website…

[Kat laughs]

Eric: … and some equipment is required – some assembly of the equipment is required- but again that’s all on the website, alohomora.mugglenet.com.

Kat: And in the meantime if you just want to stay in touch with us, send us your own own!

[Eric laughs]

Kat: Right, you like that? Anyway, we’re on Twitter at @AlohomoraMN, facebook.com/openthedumbledore, on Tumblr at mnalohomorapodcast. Of course, our phone number is 206-GO-ALBUS (206-462-5287). Don’t forget to subscribe and leave us a really awesome review on iTunes. Mention Micah a lot. That would be really good.

[Eric laughs]

Kat: Follow us on Snapchat at mn_alohomora, and of course our audioBoom where you can leave us a message directly on alohomora.mugglenet.com and we’ll play it on the show. It’s free, and all you need is an Internet connection and a microphone.

Noah: And we also have a store. We really love it when you guys check out our merchandise and wear our shirts. We spend a lot of time customizing designs. In fact, we want to reach out to all of you, asking what kind of materials you’d like to purchase in our store. What sort of stuff would you like us to make? Because we want to serve you, our fans.

Eric: And then there is of course the app for iPhone and Android and a number of countries in which you can get this app. It’s available seemingly worldwide, prices vary. But on this app you can find transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and more. There’s usually a piece of special surprise presentation sort of thing in each hidden in this app, every week.

Kat: And don’t forget our ringtones which are free, and they’re on the website as well – alohomora.mugglenet.com.

Eric: Yes. Oh, Noah, it’s time for your special announcement.

[Kat laughs]

Noah: Yeah, I’d like to take this chance – thank you, Eric – to make a little special announcement. A couple of weeks ago – no, I think it was last week – I started a company, because why not? I wanted to start a company called Blue Steel Media, Incorporated. Blue Steel is an homage to Zoolander, which is the look that Ben Stiller does in that fantabulous movie. Anyway, Blue Steel Media and the service under it, called Writer’s Block, is a service that is a team of creative writers that solve companies’ writer’s block. A company comes to us or a client comes to us with something they need written and we write it for them. So, I am looking out everywhere online. If you’re listening to this show and you are a creative writer, and not only… You want to either develop your writing skills, you’re interested in start-ups, and you also want to build a portfolio for your writing, just send me an email at noah at staff dot mugglenet dot com and I’d be interested in talking with you. You might become part of my remote staff. We’re growing pretty quick. It’s only been a couple of weeks, but we’ve already started doing a deal with our first client, and there might even be a possibility of pay…

Eric: Ooh!

Noah: … further down the line, if you continuously write for me. So again, you can just send me an email and that is all. It’s all very exciting. And by the way, I am also going to summer camp to be a group leader, so I won’t be on the next, like, five shows.

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Kat: Right, I was just…

Micah: Oh, so you need somebody? Is that what you’re saying?

Noah: Oh, oh, oh…

Kat: Oh! Oh!

Eric: Oh! Oh!

Kat: Are you offering to fill in?

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Micah, I didn’t realize that you liked Book 5 so much.

Micah: No, it’s actually…

[Eric laughs]

Micah: No, Book 3 is my favorite book.

Eric: Yeah.

Micah: But I was just… I’m joking around. We’ll see how things shape… We’ll have to see what the reviews look like, but…

Noah: Yeah, I think the reviews will have to tell.

Micah: All right, that’s… Like I said, I was…

Noah: But yeah, that’s all I wanted to say.

Eric: Well, I believe that does it. I am Eric Scull.

Noah: I’m Noah Fried.

Kat: And I’m Kat Miller. Thank you for listening to Episode 88 of Alohomora!

[Show music begins]

Eric: [as Umbridge] Hem, hem! Hem, hem, hem, hem! Open the Dumbledore! Hem!

Noah: [as the Sorting Hat] I am the Sorting Hat! Open the Dumbledore!

[Show music continues]

Eric: So Grubbly-Plank is the new Care of Magical Teachers creature for the year.

Kat: [laughs] Wait…

Micah: That’s a great way to put it.

Eric: He doesn’t say it’s for… Dumbledore… Did I say something wrong?