Transcript – Episode 158

[Show music begins]

Michael Harle: This is Episode 158 of Alohomora! for October 3, 2015.

[Show music continues]

Michael: Hello and welcome back, listeners, to another episode of Alohomora!, MuggleNet.com’s global reread of the Harry Potter series. I’m Michael Harle.

Caleb Graves: I’m Caleb Graves.

Kristen Keys: And I’m Kristen Keys. And we have a special guest with us today: Ed Reed. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Ed Reed: Hi, my name is Ed. I’m from England, I live in London, and… I don’t know! [laughs] I’m a Ravenclaw, very much a Ravenclaw, never not been a Ravenclaw on any of the quizzes that have ever been done…

[Caleb and Kristen laugh]

Ed: … and I got into Harry Potter very young. I was probably about nine years old. My mum thought I was watching too much TV, so she read about the Harry Potter books – I think it was just before the third one came out – and she’d read about them in the paper saying lots of kids were going crazy for them. So she did this very sneaky thing where she bought them and she said, “Oh, we’re going to read them together.” So we read the first chapter on one night and the second chapter on another night, and then she would just say, “Oh, I’m too busy to read the third one…”

[Michael laughs]

Ed: … wait a couple of days, wait until I was desperate, and then she said, “Oh, well, why don’t you just read it your own?” And then that was it. I was reading forever after that. So it worked!

Kristen: [laughs] Very cool.

Michael: It’s a clever technique.

Kristen: Yeah! Smart mom.

Ed: Yeah, so parents out there…

Kristen: Yeah!

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Kristen: And just a quick reminder that this week we are going over Chapter 8 in Deathly Hallows, called “The Wedding.” So make sure you have read that before you continue on.

Caleb: But before we do that, we’re going to look at just a couple of your comments from last week’s episode. There were so many great comments as usual, and I took the time to respond to a couple of you guys because there were such good thoughts out there. Unfortunately, we don’t have time for all of them, but a couple of really great thoughts. The first one is on the topic of Ron and the Deluminator, and this comes from Harlene Meenan, and it says,

“I was intrigued by the discussion about Ron and the Deluminator. I definitely think Dumbledore suspected Ron might have a hard time with the journey and need to find his way back. I hadn’t considered it before, but this time I started to wonder if there were other uses. Maybe if, say, Hermione had been the one to leave, Ron would be able to go get her or somehow lead her back? Or even if one of them got separated or lost, could the Deluminator work as a way to get them all back together? I feel like it’s easy to view the Deluminator negatively – Ron left, and it was predictable that he would do so – but maybe it was meant more as a general way to reunite the friends.”

So we talked about this quite a bit last week, and this sort of gives us another spin on maybe what Dumbledore was thinking about with giving Ron the Deluminator.

Michael: Well, I noticed in the comments – this was not the only comment this week like that – there were a lot of Ron apologists out there…

[Caleb and Ed laugh]

Michael: … which was nice to see. I think we can be a bit hard on Ron, especially with this, because I know a lot of people view this as a repeat of the Goblet of Fire incident where he just ditches out of frustration. And it’s a nice thought, I think, to view it that maybe Dumbledore was looking at the Deluminator with a bigger use. A lot of people noted, too, that maybe a lot of Ron’s frustration when the Horcrux gets to him and he leaves is not only centered on his frustrations with Harry and Hermione, but also with not knowing what’s going on with his family. And the idea that… some people even suggested that the Deluminator might be able to have tuned into his family if he needed them, and that maybe Dumbledore was aware of that really tight family bond, so… I like it, I don’t necessarily subscribe to it. I still think Ron’s kind of a jerk and Dumbledore knew that was going to happen.

[Ed and Michael laugh]

Michael: But I don’t know, maybe you guys feel differently.

Ed: I don’t know, I tend to think Dumbledore tries to be a kind figure, and I actually really buy into the family aspect of it more than the linking up with their friends if they get separated. I think the family aspect of it is much more likely because the Weasleys are just such a solid unit of a family. They’re much different from Hermione and her parents – she doesn’t seem to care about them at all – and then obviously Harry is not going to be interested in the Dursleys. But I think… I really subscribe to the family aspect of it.

Michael: Yeah. It’s never really stretched upon, as far as the family stuff, more narratively, which is why I don’t subscribe to it – just based on what’s in the book and what’s been mentioned by Rowling. Because I did find… she said after the book was released, in her live chat that she did online at bloomsbury.com, somebody asked why Ron got the Deluminator, and she said, “Ron got it because Dumbledore knew that Ron might need a little more guidance than the other two.” Which in that way opens it up to the idea that Ron just loses his way every once in a while or gets a little befuddled or confused and needs to find his way back. Not necessarily that he would’ve abandoned the two of them, but that he just required a little more guidance from another source that wasn’t Harry and Hermione to restore his faith, perhaps.

Caleb: I spent a lot of time talking about this last week so I won’t dive back into it, but yes, some really great thoughts. And like Michael said, a lot of people discussed this on the forums – there were a lot of great comments. The next one comes on our discussion of Ron, Hermione, and the genuity of their relationship with The Twelve Fail-Safe Ways To Charm a Witch or whatever the book title is.

[Michael laughs]

Caleb: So this actually, I would say, probably sparked the most discussion. And it overlaps with the Ron apologists and sympathy – whatever you want to call it, just for focusing on a different matter. So the first comment comes from WitchWolfsbane10:

“In the beginning of […] Deathly Hallows, the romantic tactics Ron uses from that book are clearly thought out and planned in order to help move his relationship with Hermione in the right direction. But once they’re on the road, once they’re plunged into the dangers and death, Ron’s affection and actions towards her are completely genuine. I refuse to believe him begging Bellatrix to torture him instead of Hermione was some tip he could find in that book… But up until this point, Ron’s only real relationship was with the anti-Hermione. He learned from that relationship, made a lot of mistakes in that relationship, and I think the fact that he’s willing to look for help shows how much he does care for Hermione. He knows Hermione is not an ordinary girl like Lavender Brown. She is an exceptional human being, and he knows that she deserves his effort, attention, and commitment. We come to know how deep his insecurities run about himself, especially where Hermione is concerned, so I don’t think it’s disingenuous or reflects poorly on his sincerity. On the contrary, I think it shows a genuine effort to show Hermione that she’s worth the effort, worth the time, worth the work.”

And then quickly on the flip side, Lisa said,

“My problem with the book is that its advice cannot be anything but general. The advice has nothing to do with Hermione as a human being; it’s just about what guys should tell girls (in general) in order to get into their pants.”

[Michael laughs]

Caleb: [continues]

“Ron has known Hermione for seven years. She’s not some generic female person; she’s an individual with her own needs and wants and personality. I would hate it if my boyfriend used a book to tell me what I want to hear, instead of finding out for himself what I need or want. It reflects badly on Hermione that she doesn’t see through Ron’s sudden change of approach to her.”

Michael: Well…

[Ed and Kristen laugh]

Michael: Kristen, you’re a girl.

Kristen: Yes. Yes, I am.

Michael: [as Hermione] “Well spotted.” [laughs]

Kristen: I don’t know, I had tons of people… I used to work in a bookstore as well, you know? People are just trying to find love.

[Caleb, Ed, and Michael laugh]

Caleb: Yeah, you tell them. You tell them.

Kristen: I mean, if somebody needs a book because… you know, men can be immature most of the time…

[Caleb and Michael laugh]

Kristen: … so they may need a book to help them out. I don’t see any harm in it.

Ed: And in Hermione’s defense, everyone likes to get a compliment.

Kristen: Mhm.

Ed: It’s not that it reflects badly on her that she’s appreciative that Ron’s not being an ass anymore.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Yeah. I’m still more with Lisa as far as the problems with the book, but only because… I think this is actually just dependent on what one perhaps requires or seeks in a relationship individually. Because there were comments on both sides this week I saw. More people were definitely in defense of Ron. There was a lot of just Ron defense in general this week.

Caleb: Mhm.

Michael: But… it’s mixed for me because I see the negatives and the benefits, because I already told the story last week about the ex-friend of mine who told me to read Twilight and that was a great way to get girls, which wasn’t going to do me any good anyway.

[Kristen laughs]

Michael: But that felt disingenuous to me, and there were things in some relationships like that that I’ve seen where people do seem disingenuous and the relationship seems unhealthy. But I think in the case of Ron and Hermione, Ron just needed a little push to properly treat Hermione the way that he always knew he should.

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: He just didn’t know how, and the book gave him the last steps to that.

Kristen: The last little push, yeah.

Michael: Yeah, yeah. So he just… he did need the book. I mean… like Ed said, I’d rather that than he just behave like an ass for the rest of the book.

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Caleb: True enough. All right, the final comment comes on the topic of – I think we’re going to be finishing this topic up, but at least for now – Dumbledore keeping the topic of the Horcruxes close and Harry not seeking out help beyond the trio. And this comes from DoraNympha:

“Something interesting that came up when my boyfriend and I were listening to the show, and Christine (who was last week’s guest) compared the trio’s upcoming quest to a teenager in the ’40s saying they’re off to personally go kill Hitler: maybe Dumbledore was overprotective of the Horcrux secret in a similar way that Alan Turing and company were keeping the Enigma stuff super secret? That they had to control the situation in such an unsuspicious way that they had to let some of their own ships get hit sometimes just so the Germans don’t realize their code had been cracked? Kind of like how Dumbledore wasn’t afraid to sacrifice some of his own people for the Greater Good? Is this a Turing-Dumbledore parallel we should consider?”

Ed: I love this comment.

Michael: That’s a really good comment, yeah.

Ed: I think it’s fantastic.

Caleb: I think people on the main site – I think I said forums earlier when I was talking about comments, but I meant the main site – but people were just obsessed with this comment, I think. I saw so many people just say “wow” or “I’m amazed by this.” There’s just no words for it, and it was just a really nice tie – I mean, obviously very troubling.

Ed: I mean, there are a lot of links that Dumbledore has to World War II generally. There’s a lot of parallels with Grindelwald and the end of it ending in 1945 and that kind of thing, and Dumbledore is this sort of figure of the allies, the sort of Churchill. Although I actually like the Turing parallel better. It fits better with Dumbledore because he is a troubling figure in his moral, gray area. But yeah, this comment is fantastic.

Michael: Yeah, I like this comment for that reason too. And I think we’re going to see even more of these parallels between World War II and the war in Deathly Hallows. They are going to keep showing up, and I spotted one in this chapter that we’re going to be discussing alone. And I like this. For the listeners who aren’t aware, Alan Turing was the subject of last year’s movie The Imitation Game, and he and a group of people during World War II were actually tasked to break the Enigma Code, which is what the Nazis were using, so their transmissions to each other couldn’t be decoded by the other side. And Turing actually managed to build pretty much the first supercomputer to break the code. And there was an instance – and the movie does it a little overdramatized, but it essentially was similar to this – where Turing and company had to make decisions because once they knew the code, they couldn’t necessarily just go shouting out that they knew the code, because they were worried the Germans were going to change it if they found out. So people died as a consequence of it. And if you haven’t seen The Imitation Game, listeners, make sure and see it. It is an excellent movie. It stretches Turing’s life a little bit and there are definitely some falsities in it, but overall it is a very good movie, and gets you interested in the topic. I think that is a great parallel, and I mean, I guess, if you want to even stretch it further… the interesting thing is the movie suggests that Turing was very nervous about his sexuality, and he was, for a time, and they actually ended up medicating him. But in real life, he actually somewhat willingly took the medication and took it as a kind of experiment and was quite interested in it. In the movie it is not portrayed as such, but it is an interesting parallel between Dumbledore, who was also gay, but of course, by this point, according to Rowling, asexual. But I think that is a great parallel to draw.

Caleb: Like I said, there is a lot of great comments this week. And as we’ve talked about a lot, discussing Ron. Head over to the main site to check a lot of those out.

Michael: And before we get into the chapter discussion this week, we’re going to check out some of the comments that you listeners left on the Podcast Question of the Week, which was,

“We see in this chapter that Harry receives a watch for his 17th birthday. As Mrs. Weasley explains, this is a traditional gift for wizards who reach adulthood. But what about witches? As we discussed, is there a difference in the gifts that is indicative of wizards being patriarchal, or suggests that they adapted this from (potentially outdated) Muggle customs? Or do witches receive a gift that is just as practical as it is ornamental? When a witch comes of age, just what is the gift that she is given?”

So this discussion came up from Caleb, actually, noticing last week that when Molly gives Harry the watch, she very specifically says that it is a gift that wizards receive, not witches. Now, the majority of the comments were listeners saying, “Witches get watches, too.”

[Caleb laughs]

Michael: So thank you for that, listeners.

Caleb: Maybe we can push the envelope a little bit.

Michael: [laughs] And there were actually some interesting reasons behind it that some of you gave for why witches would also get watches. But some of the comments I chose, I actually came up with some alternative suggestions. The first one comes from NeverTickleASleepingRavenclaw, who says,

“If we go by the notion that this is a gendered gift, and we’re focusing on how the magical community stopped developing around the 1950s, then I would say that the female gift is something to do with family or being a mother. With that being said, I love to imagine that the ‘family clock’ that Molly has was given to her when she turned 17. Perhaps at the time it only had one hand (her) or just her and Arthur (since we do know they were dating at Hogwarts), and with the birth of each new Weasley, a hand magically added itself to the clock. I know this is unlikely because Mrs. Weasley’s clock seems to be so unique, as Dumbledore says. Also, Molly graduated from Hogwarts in the ’60s, so maybe it was common to give a clock such as hers back then and has since fallen out of style, which makes hers unique.”

Caleb: Hmm. Interesting.

Kristen: That’s a cute idea. [laughs]

Michael: See, I like that because it ties in with the watch because it’s still a clock.

Kristen: Mhm. Yeah.

Caleb: Sure.

Michael: But it goes, as we discussed… because Pottermore kind of goes into this, about how the wizards and witches kind of stopped paralleling Muggle society by the ’50s. So I like the idea that there’s this mindset of, “Oh, women should get family-oriented gifts.” And it would seem to make sense, too, knowing that Molly and Arthur were kind of together around that time.

Ed: It is quite a ’50s attitude to women, though, isn’t it?

Caleb and Kristen: Mhm.

Ed: Men get the watch they can take around with them and the women are at home with the clock.

Caleb: To work.

Michael: Yes.

Kristen: Yeah.

Michael: [laughs] Yeah. And now there were a lot of arguments from a lot of our listeners that wizard society actually doesn’t seem very patriarchal because we see women who hold positions of power, and I think Pottermore has especially gone more into that with previous Ministers of Magic, where there’s a fair balance of women.

Caleb: Mhm. Yeah. I would agree.

Michael: And of course we know, too, that the founders were gender balanced.

Caleb and Ed: Yeah.

Michael: I think there could be some arguments made about that.

Caleb: Yeah. Sure.

Michael: But – which I’m sure we’ll get into – but another comment came from Dumbledoresgirlthruandthru, who said,

“The first thing that comes to my mind is a locket. I always thought that Marvolo gave Merope Slytherin’s locket when she came of age. I think that the equally significant gift for [w]itches would be a ‘hope chest’ upon their marriage. The hope chest would contain all of their mother’s (and/or Father’s) potion recipes, food recipes, books, spells, and special items that would be passed on from mother to daughter. Ginny’s hope chest would be a treasure trove of recipes and household spells that Mrs. Weasley used and probably a bunch of knitting patterns so Ginny could continue the Weasley [s]weater tradition.”

[Ed and Kristen laugh]

Michael: What do you think?

Caleb: Yeah. I mean, I think if we’re thinking of accessories/jewelry, a locket is not a bad suggestion.

Ed: I think this is a much better gift than a watch. In theory, this could be all the family secrets: spells and everything passed down through generations.

Kristen: Mhm.

Ed: Whereas you just get a watch if you’re a guy. Yeah, you can tell the time. Well done.

[Ed and Michael laugh]

Ed: I think this is a really good one.

Kristen: But why does it have to be recipes and household spells for the ladies?

[Michael laughs]

Ed: Well, it doesn’t have to be household spells. It could be any kind.

Kristen: Well, this… yeah, yeah, yeah. I would… I prefer that. I know this comment says recipes and household spells, so I think that could be passed down to male or female.

Caleb, Ed, and Michael: Mhm.

Kristen: It doesn’t matter. But I like the idea, yeah, of any spell or something that gets passed down through generations.

Michael: Yeah. Well, since we know that wizards do some… at least, skilled wizards seem to come up with their own little flares and spells for things that aren’t maybe taught at school. I actually, the way you were saying it, Ed, that these prove to be more… the hope chest, at least, that suggestions would seem to be a more useful gift.

Ed: Mhm.

Michael: That kind of spins it in a way that maybe wizards are actually more matriarchal.

[Ed laughs]

Michael: Which is interesting because that’s actually – for the listeners who don’t know – part of the Jewish tradition that in a family, the Jewish religion is actually passed down through the mother, not the father. So, wouldn’t it be interesting if wizards actually gave more, if not equal, more power to females in their society by just the gifts and things that they passed down. I like the locket idea just because that would provide an explanation for why Marvolo would give Merope the locket.

Ed: Hmm.

Michael: Because I’ve always… having not really reflected on it until that comment, I… when you think about it, it is kind of surprising, considering how derogatory Marvolo is towards Merope.

Caleb: Mhm, yup.

Ed: Yup.

Michael: He thinks she’s a Squib and that she does… can’t even do magic but he’s willing to let her wear this priceless ornament on her neck and, of course, that’s how she, at least, makes her last few days, gets to the orphanage. So it was an interesting idea just because he leaves such a priceless gift with her. But another idea came from SnuggleswithNifflers who said,

“I know that Hermione makes hers herself, but I think it would be neat if witches got beaded bags similar to the one that came in so handy during their journey. A lot of women (especially in the 1950s) carry purses, and often, women are known for having everything but the kitchen sink in their bags. I think this gift would be practical in a similar way to watches. It would come in handy in all stages of life, from school to going out to [w]izard bars to parenthood. I certainly would have loved to get a bottomless bag for my seventeenth!”

But as YoRufusonFire so kindly reminded us,

“The Undetectable Extension Charm is illegal for personal use. If it [weren’t] illegal, I would totally want one!”

[Ed laughs]

Michael: I mean, I would want a bottomless bag.

Caleb: I agree.

Kristen: Oh, yeah.

Ed: Yup.

Kristen: Geez, that would come in handy.

Michael: That would come in very handy. Yeah, I thought that was a good idea, especially because that also serves kind of the dual role of practical and ornamental…

Kristen: Mhm, yup.

Michael: … like a watch. And we got a little interesting bit of a history lesson from Diskid, which I thought was worth pointing out. Diskid said,

“Wristwatches, as much as it’s seen as masculine now, were actually invented for women. Men were accustomed to pocket watches when those were invented, and up until the 1930s (only around 60 years before these events), men would have been considered feminine to be wearing them. Perhaps the wizards get pocket watches, and the witches get wristwatches if this really is an old tradition. If this is a wristwatch, though, I dare say it was not always traditional for the men to get those kind of watches, as they would have been feminine until the 1930s. Even with the argument that not all wizards and witches would know this, I daresay there were enough [M]uggle-borns around to inform them that wristwatches are a feminine piece of jewelry. Then, if watches are truly only given to wizards, it’s kind of ironic for them to be given wristwatches, as those were not invented for men. I can see a feminist witch making a whole case for that at some point.”

[Caleb and Kristen laughs]

Caleb: Interesting. I appreciate that history.

Kristen: Mhm, yeah.

Michael: Yeah.

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah, I didn’t know that either. I liked that one because I wasn’t even really thinking… because I can’t remember completely and totally because we mentioned it last week but I can’t remember if… I want to say that Dumbledore’s watch – that we discussed briefly last week – the one with the planets going around the edge instead of numbers, I think that might actually be a pocket watch and not a wristwatch.

Caleb: Yup, I think that’s right.

Ed: Yup.

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: But I always got the sense that the one that Molly gives Harry is a wristwatch. Could be wrong. I don’t think it’s actually stated, is it?

Caleb: Yeah, I don’t think so. I didn’t even think about picking up on that last week.

Kristen and Michael: Yeah.

Michael: So that was an interesting bit of history there about wristwatches, deeper than I think we even thought to go on that one. So those were just some of the great comments that were entered in this week. I wanted to do a shout-out to the rest of you who contributed, to CentaurSeeker121, ChocolateFrogRavenclaw, HarleyMeenan, Huffleclaw, Hufflepuffskein, my kids are filthy muggles…

[Caleb and Kristen laugh]

Michael: … Olivia Underwood, SlytherinKnight, They’ve Taken My Wheezy!, Time&RelativDimensionInHandbag, and VoiceofDobby. And I want to do a Shout-out Maxima to Awesome Hufflepuff, DoraNympha, SnapesManyButtons, and suprememugwump. All four of you had comments that almost made it into the show; I just did not have time and room to put them in but they were especially excellent that week. If you, listeners, want to take a look at those comments, just because that episode has concluded does not mean that the conversation has, so head over to alohomora.mugglenet.com to see more responses from last week’s Podcast Question.

Kristen: Now it’s time to go into this week’s chapter discussion.

[Deathly Hallows Chapter 8 intro begins]

Officiator: Then I declare you bonded for life.

Krum: Chapter 8.

[Sounds of fireworks and chimes]

Krum: “The Wedding.”

[Sound of crowd gasping and applauding]

[Deathly Hallows Chapter 8 intro ends]

Kristen: Here’s a little summary from Chapter 8. Bill and Fleur’s wedding is finally here. Harry, disguised as a Weasley cousin Barney, meets Ron’s family as well as old friends. We get to hear about the Deathly Hallows symbol for the first time. Harry then meets Elphias Doge, a friend of Dumbledore, and is excited to talk with him. While talking, Harry learns new and unnerving facts about Dumbledore’s past. Then the chapter ends with an unsettling message from Kingsley. So my first point, I guess, is just – maybe it’s the girl in me – a wizard wedding!

[Everyone laughs]

Kristen: Very excited to hear about one. And also, that Harry is finally a Weasley! Even if it’s just a cousin.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Foreshadowing.

Kristen: [laughs] We also find out… well, Ron comments on how lovely Hermione looks.

Michael: Still using that book.

Caleb: And I will say to contrast from last week when we had the arguably ingenuine remarks from the book, this seems so spontaneous and real that I thought it was a nice juxtaposition.

Ed and Kristen: Yeah.

Kristen: And then I guess, Ed, if you want to go into your little point you had added in there as well?

Ed: Oh, it was just a question. Who is the man who does the weddings and the funerals?

[Everyone laughs]

Ed: Who is this guy? No one does… I mean, is it a religious thing? Because that’s the only thing that explains it because…

Michael: See, I was wondering that myself because we’ve talked about if there is religion in the wizarding world, and this guy seems to exclusively be a minister of some sort.

Caleb and Ed: Yeah.

Caleb: A celebrated one.

Kristen: Yeah!

Michael: And he’s apparently the only one because he’s used for everything.

[Everyone laughs]

Ed: But [in] all his speeches, there’s no mention of religious imagery. It’s all quite secular.

Michael: Yeah.

Ed: It feels… who is this guy?

[Michael laughs]

Ed: Is it just someone from the Ministry? Yeah, that was just a little rant about that, basically. [laughs]

Caleb: Yeah, we don’t ever get… we definitely don’t get his name.

Kristen: Yeah, I was going to say, I’ve never heard a name.

Michael: Well, we do know there are wizards who follow particular religions, as confirmed by Rowling because we know there are Jewish kids at Hogwarts.

Ed and Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: So there must be kids of other religious backgrounds who are also witches and wizards.

Kristen: That’s true.

Michael: But it doesn’t seem like witches and wizards have their own religion.

Ed: No.

Michael: So maybe this guy is just a blanket religious figurehead who knows all religions.

Ed and Kristen: Yeah.

Kristen: Very versatile.

Michael: But how would you even pursue that in the wizarding world, since that’s not really encouraged? What do you go into to get a job like this? Muggle Studies?

[Ed laughs]

Caleb: Yeah, there’s no theology or anything like that to pursue really that we know of.

Kristen: Guess that’s why there’s the only one.

Ed and Caleb: Yeah.

Ed: I was just going to say, it doesn’t even feel religious in its tone.

Michael: No.

Ed: The language he uses in the wedding and the language he uses at the funeral are very secular; it’s not religious. So is this just some functionary from the Ministry who signs the register?

Kristen: Yeah, it could be.

Ed: I mean, we have registrars in England that do these things, but they don’t do funerals as well.

Kristen and Michael: Yeah.

Ed: It just feels lazy on Rowling’s part.

[Ed and Kristen laugh]

Ed: Like, “Oh, I’ll just recycle the guy from the funeral.”

Michael: I do think there’s… well, and it’s funny, too because that’s one of those moments where you’re like, “Oh, does this mean something? Does this have…” because she makes a point of it in the narrative, that Harry is like, “Oh my God, it’s the same guy.”

[Kristen laughs]

Michael: But in a way, I wouldn’t say it’s lazy. For me, I would say it’s almost Rowling’s attempt to avoid sticking one religion on wizards…

Caleb and Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: … because a lot of juvenile fiction does that, especially when it creates a world that’s separate from the normal, average world, if it doesn’t want to… I think that’s part of what makes Harry Potter potentially timeless is that it doesn’t tie itself to particular religions or cultures or a time period. So I think that’s Rowling’s attempt to make sure that the book doesn’t get stuck in a certain time period.

Kristen: Next we have Hermione see a familiar face, which is Krum…

Michael: Oh my God.

Kristen: … and I love how… and then she’s so excited or whatever, she ends up dropping this very small bag…

[Michael laughs]

Kristen: … but it somehow has a very loud clunk to it. I love how that was added in there. [laughs]

Caleb: I don’t know if I’ve ever really picked up on it like I did this time.

Kristen: I don’t think I really have, either. But yeah, I read it this time. I guess it’s because when we’re doing chapter-by-chapter I’m able to focus more so I was really able to pick up and I was like, “Ahh, that’s such a great part.”

Ed: I didn’t even pick up on it until you pointed it out, actually.

[Kristen laughs]

Ed: And I’ve been rereading it for the past few days, yeah, and it’s great.

Michael: Yeah, I picked it up a few rereads ago, but it’s a fun little thing because it really does prove that Hermione… because she says all of the stuff in the later chapters of how forward-thinking she was trying to be as far as getting ready to go.

Kristen: Oh, yeah.

Michael: But this really proves that yup, she had the bag… I just love how nobody says anything.

Kristen: Yeah, they’re just like, “Oh, I guess a small bag can be that loud, right?”

Caleb: Just girl stuff. Let it go.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: “She’s probably carrying bricks in there.”

Kristen: We also see, with the return of Krum, Ron’s jealousy flares up again. But he asks Hermione to dance with him.

Michael: See, like Caleb said earlier, too, the funny thing about that is that’s also another moment that I feel is super genuine on Ron’s part. He really wants to have Hermione to himself in that moment.

Kristen: Oh, yeah. Oh, definitely.

Michael: Because it’s not very graceful or tactful.

Kristen: No.

Michael: He’s just like, “Come dance with me right now.”

Kristen: “You dance with me.”

[Ed and Kristen laugh]

Michael: But Hermione loves it.

Ed: At least he did that because in previous years he would have just sulked.

Kristen: Definitely.

Michael: Yes, that’s true. Yeah, he makes the attempt. He’s being a little more extroverted.

Kristen: It’s all due to that book.

[Michael and Kristen laugh]

Michael: And Hermione just lights up, too, which I thought was really cute.

Kristen: That definitely made me smile.

Michael: It’s funny, too because in that moment when that happens, what’s interesting with that is that Krum actually isn’t pursuing Hermione in that moment. He’s actually there to complain about Xenophilius, and he actually forgets about Hermione for a minute. I did love Ron’s comment that Krum grew facial hair.

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Ed: That stupid little beard.

Michael: That’s a thing, listeners.

Caleb: So when Krum asks Harry if those two are together, is this the first time that Harry is really coming to terms that they are a thing? Because he says… I don’t remember what his exact quote is, but I think it’s “sort of” or “kind of” or something.

[Michael laughs]

Caleb: I don’t know if we’ve ever heard him vocalize the acknowledgement that they’re a thing.

Michael: No.

Kristen: I don’t think so. Yeah, I think this is one of the first times.

Ed: I think he’s known for years and he’s just never actually said it.

Caleb: Sure, yeah.

Kristen: Yeah, underlying.

Caleb: But this is the first time he’s had to share that with someone.

Ed: I just think he’s been rolling his eyes for the past three years, essentially, at the fact that they’re not doing anything.

Michael: Yeah, well, because we get that moment, actually – because I just reread it with Charlie a few nights ago – in Book 6 when they’re in the greenhouses together and Ron and Hermione have a bit of a tiff, and Harry actually starts getting anxious that he’s going to become the third wheel or that their friendship is going to be destroyed. What’s nice to see here is – like you said, Caleb – he’s verbally acknowledging it, but I think he’s actually gotten past any anxiety about their relationship and how it’ll affect the trio’s relationship. Which is funny because I think that’s important for when Ron abandons them because it shows that Harry and Hermione, I think, have already come to a place of acceptance. They knew this was going to happen and it’s what everybody wanted, and Ron is still the one who has anxieties and fears.

Ed: It’s interesting that Krum picks up on it straightaway. Do you think Krum knew back in year four as well?

Caleb: That’s interesting. I didn’t think about that but he does come to that conclusion pretty quickly here.

Michael: There’s implications in Book 4 that Krum didn’t necessarily know it was Ron and Hermione, but he knew Hermione wasn’t interested in him. I think the big one that’s cited in the narration is after the second task and he tries to pull Rita Skeeter out of Hermione’s hair and she’s just like, “No, no thanks.” And he actually thinks Harry is his competition. I don’t think he suspected Ron. I think if he did he probably suspected it later. But Hermione has been keeping up a correspondence with Krum, too, ostensibly, right?

Kristen: I believe so. Penpalling it.

Michael: Yeah, there have been implications, I think around Book 5, that she was still writing to him. And then of course there’s the issue of where… then that’s brought up in Book 6 where Ron asks Harry, “Do you think they really kissed?” And Harry’s honest answer is “yes” but he won’t say it.

[Everyone laughs]

Kristen: And so while Barney/Harry…

[Michael laughs]

Kristen: … is talking to Viktor Krum, Viktor is going over there to complain about Lovegood’s necklace. And it turns out to be the Deathly Hallows symbol. Now, I can’t remember, is this the first time we’re seeing that symbol on somebody?

Michael: I believe it is.

Caleb: Yeah, it is.

Kristen: Okay. That’s what I wanted to say.

Michael: Because it’s on the ring, right?

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: But we haven’t actually seen the symbol on the ring.

Caleb: Right.

Kristen: Yeah.

Ed: It’s cracked by the time Harry sees it, so yeah, it would be obscure, wouldn’t it?

Kristen and Michael: Yeah.

Michael: That’s right.

Kristen: That’s what I thought.

Michael: But yeah. It’s the first sighting.

Kristen: Mhm. Of that wonderful symbol.

Michael: Yes. So many tattoos. [laughs]

Kristen: Yes. And while he’s also talking to him, he remembers Gregorovitch was Krum’s wandmaker, and that brings him back to Voldemort because he knows he’s heard that name in his dreams and that is who Voldemort is trying to seek out. So I thought that was a pretty cool little…

Ed: I thought it was interesting that Krum was surprised that he’d mentioned it in an interview when Harry/Barney tries to explain how he knows that.

Caleb: Yeah, what a terrible cover.

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Caleb: Well, maybe it’s not the worst. I guess there could be worse covers than just…

Ed: Harry is an idiot, isn’t he?

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Michael: Harry is not the master of mystery.

Ed: Is that quite a personal thing for wizards to talk about their wands, and that Krum would be surprised that he would have mentioned that?

Caleb: Yeah, for me, it’s almost that why would Krum even mention that in an interview? Because it would be almost obvious that he would get a wand from Gregorovitch, given where he lives.

Kristen: Because aren’t there only the two in that area?

Caleb: Yeah, I think so. At least that we know of.

Michael: Yeah. I think… it’s funny because we as readers love to tell each other about what our wands are, thanks to Pottermore. Although, no thanks to new Pottermore.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: I printed my certificate out so I could remember it forever. But I think in the wizarding world there is a bit of an opposite that wizards feel like… and we get a lot of this in Deathly Hallows about just how bonded a wizard is to their wand and how private a bond that is. I think that comes up a lot when there ends up being a lot of wand switching in the last book and everybody starts feeling really uncomfortable with each other’s wands.

Caleb and Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: So I think that’s why Krum is so shocked. But really… I’m assuming even though Gregorovitch is the main wandmaker in that area of Europe, I’m assuming he’s not the only wandmaker because it’s implied, too, that there are other wandmakers in Britain that are just of lesser quality than Ollivander…

Caleb: Sure. Yeah.

Kristen: Got you.

Michael: … or at least that Ollivander would have us believe.

Caleb: Sure, yeah.

Kristen: Yeah. And then, Michael, you added another point…

Michael: Oh, so I wanted to just mention – because as you pointed out, Kristen, this is the first sighting of the Deathly Hallows symbol – and as was brought up in the comments, perhaps a parallel to World War II. The interesting thing here with the Deathly Hallows symbol is that Krum has such a negative reaction to it, and he essentially takes the same offense that somebody would probably take to seeing a swastika.

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: But the interesting thing is the swastika was not originally intentioned to represent what it came to represent in Germany during the war.

Caleb: Right.

Michael: The swastika was used as a very sacred symbol in multiple cultures – and it’s not the best source, but it was all I could do on limited time, listeners – but if you just type it into Google, first of all, the government will probably start tracking you.

[Everyone laughs]

Caleb: So use a public computer.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: But you’ll see that multiple cultures come up. The swastika appears in Hinduism, Buddhism… many Eastern traditions. It’s in the Celtic tradition, the Slavic tradition, and interestingly here – and I remember when I first saw this, I had quite a shock as a young kid – there is a theater here in Albuquerque, it’s called the KiMo Theater, and it has a lot of Native American imagery and there are swastikas right when you go in the lobby and you look up. They’re incorporated into the artwork. But again, in different Native American tribes, the swastika represents different things. And what’s interesting is that Krum takes it as Grindelwald’s symbol of superiority, but it’s interesting that what we find out from Xenophilius later is that the Hallows symbol is so… its original meaning is more literal in that the shape is actually taken from the shape of the objects, and that’s actually something that happens with the swastika. The swastika can represent things like four different directions. In some cultures it actually represents an octopus. There are multiple things that the swastika represents to other cultures. So I’m assuming that’s where Rowling got the idea. I mean, it’s almost too much of a coincidence with these parallels to World War II.

Kristen: Mhm.

Ed: Yeah. Absolutely.

Caleb: Yeah, I agree.

Michael: But I do love that it has such extreme dual meanings. It’s like listening to the child of a Holocaust survivor talking about the swastika, the way that Krum talks about it.

Kristen: Very true.

Michael: And he does mention, too, which is interesting, that he has had family members who died at the hands of Grindelwald.

Caleb: And he took revenge on people who used that symbol later.

Kristen and Michael: Yeah.

Ed: Kids at school thinking that made them big and clever that [he] taught a lesson to.

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: Yes. Apparently there are skinheads in the wizarding world.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: So that’s also a thing.

Kristen: So then Krum starts talking about how beautiful Ginny is and Harry is like, “I’ve got to go.”

[Everyone laughs]

Caleb: “… she’s dating a big bloke; wouldn’t want to mess with him.”

Kristen: Yup.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: I love Krum’s parting line…

Kristen: Yes.

Michael: … because we don’t see him again in the book. He’s like, “What’s the point of being a famous Quidditch player if you can’t get all the pretty girls?”

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Caleb: That was a really terrific thing for her to add in right at the end.

Kristen: I loved it. Yeah.

Michael: That is an excellent exit line for Krum.

Kristen: Yeah, it’s pretty perfect.

Michael: That is his final line in the series.

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Kristen: Great way to end.

Michael: I loved that. We do… the next time we see Krum isn’t until – and again, these are now gone, tragically – on Pottermore, when he wins last year’s Quidditch World Cup.

Kristen: Oh, yeah. Mhm.

Caleb: Yeah.

Ed: How old would he be now?

Michael: I think… isn’t he in his 30s? 40s?

Ed: Right, yeah.

Caleb: That sounds about right.

Kristen: Yeah.

Michael: He was unusually old, apparently, to be playing Quidditch this past year.

Ed: Yeah, okay.

Caleb: Still got it, though.

[Ed and Kristen laugh]

Michael: He’s still got it. He won.

[Caleb laughs]

Kristen: So Harry makes his way over to Doge, and he wants to talk with him because he knows he’s the one who wrote Dumbledore’s obituary. And he finds out that he is furious about Rita’s new book and all the claims she’s making. And then Ron’s Auntie Muriel comes in and thinks that it’s justified due to Rita having a good source, which is Bathilda Bagshot.

Caleb: And then about a million important details spill out all at once.

[Everyone laughs]

Ed: I love Auntie Muriel. I think she’s fantastic. She’s just every drunk aunt at a wedding ever.

Kristen and Michael: Yes. [laugh]

Michael: Do you speak from experience, Ed?

Ed: Oh, yes. Obviously.

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Ed: She’s just excellent. And Fred and George talking about Uncle Bilius earlier is every drunk uncle at a wedding ever, as well.

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Caleb: Yeah. What a shame we don’t get to meet him.

Kristen: I know.

Michael: Yeah, it’s fun seeing the Weasley family so fleshed out. They’ve been built up over the course of six books, and they deliver on their promise, don’t they?

Kristen: Oh, yeah.

Michael: They are every bit as oddball and eccentric as you want them to be, and Muriel takes the cake.

Ed: Yeah.

Kristen: Oh gosh, yeah.

Michael: And it’s funny because she really has been so cleverly built up, and that’s one of those things where I wonder if Jo necessarily always intended to use her…

Ed and Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: … or just had her there as, “This would be fun if I come around with a way to use her.”

Ed: There’s a fantastic bit earlier in the chapter that I just wanted to point out where she’s commenting upon Fleur’s tiara or something, and she says, “Oh, but Ginny’s dress is far too tight,” and then Ginny turns around and winks at Harry. I just thought [that] was fantastic.

Kristen: Yeah.

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Michael: Yeah, that was pretty funny. Yeah, I love how she comes up to everybody and goes, “I’m a hundred and seven!”

[Everyone laughs]

Kristen: “Give me that chair! I need to sit.”

Michael: “Give me that chair!” Well, because I was wondering, too… and it’s not brought up. She does yell at a random cousin who runs off of his chair, and I did wonder at some point if there was a plan to have the awkward accountant cousin be a part of this…

Caleb: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Michael: … because that was a plot point from Book 1 that was actually intended to be used in Book 4 because the awkward accountant’s daughter was going to be in place of Rita Skeeter, as a Slytherin who listened around at doors and fed Harry and company information. And then Rowling realized that she could only stretch her so much, so that she ended up replacing… that’s when she rewrote Book 4 and replaced that character with Rita Skeeter, and I thought wouldn’t that have been fun if she had actually included that family in the wedding somehow?

[Kristen laughs]

Caleb: Mmm.

Michael: As a ghost plot. Maybe somewhere there.

Kristen: Oh, true. So then Muriel is talking about how Doge didn’t really go into Dumbledore’s gloomy past in his obituary. And my thought was, does anybody really? If you’re going to write an obituary about somebody, are you going to go into their deep, dark secrets and share it all over the news?

Caleb: Yeah, I think that’s definitely true. And this is why I think calling it an obituary is probably not accurate, right?

Kristen: Yeah.

Caleb: It’s more like an editorial on his life.

Kristen and Michael: Mhm.

Caleb: But even so, I agree, Kristen. I don’t think he should have to talk about those gloomy things when you’re celebrating someone’s life.

Kristen: Mhm.

Ed: Certainly not Elphias, but we do have a bit of a tradition in Britain of writing about people quite negatively after they’re dead.

[Everyone laughs]

Caleb: Oh, well…

Kristen: Oh, okay. Guess it is a thing.

Ed: We’re just horrible people.

[Everyone laughs]

Caleb: That’s quite nice. Is that only for your politicians or is that for everyone?

Ed: Yeah, usually, yeah. But Dumbledore would definitely count. He’s a public enough figure.

Caleb: Yeah, true.

Kristen: Got you, okay. All right. Don’t die in Britain. Got it.

[Everyone laughs]

Caleb: Yeah, and this scene is interesting. Before we get into what we find out about Dumbledore’s family being in Godric’s Hollow, I think you had a note on this, Michael, that we really see Doge’s relationship with Dumbledore come alive more so than we did just on the paper when Harry read the obituary, or whatever we want to call it.

Michael: Yeah, this interaction is absolutely fascinating to me because… and even more so this time really being able to close[ly] read it. With the thought in mind that was fed to me by somebody who I follow on Twitter… I mentioned their Twitter handle last time. I can’t remember it off the top of my head right now. I believe it’s a group of girls who are actually re-reading the Harry Potter series, and they’re on the same track as us – they were a little ahead of us, actually – and one of them mentioned, after reading Doge’s editorial, obituary, whatever you’d like to call it, that they actually thought that Doge might have had romantic feelings for Dumbledore.

Caleb: Mhm.

Kristen: Huh.

Michael: And I’m kind of inclined to read it that way.

Caleb: Yeah, it’s definitely the way I always read it, really. Well, I should take that back. Always read it once I found out that Dumbledore was gay…

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: Mhm.

Caleb: … because probably in the beginning, I wouldn’t have thought about it that way. But afterwards, I definitely always read it that way.

Ed: I can definitely see it.

Kristen: Mhm.

Ed: I don’t want to get ahead of it, but when he is talking about the family generally, it’s not just Albus that he is “in love with,” inverted commas. He is in love with the whole Dumbledore family, and he defends them all, and calls Kendra a wonderful woman and all that kind of thing. It’s just such a weird sort of relationship he has with them because it’s all of them that he adores.

Kristen: True.

Michael: Well, yeah, Muriel points to that as hero worship.

Kristen: No.

Michael: Yeah, it doesn’t feel like that to me because what’s so interesting about how it reads is that part of it is also dependent on how much Doge knows exactly.

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: And I get the sense that he doesn’t know everything, but he knows more than he’s saying because he seems very reluctant to… he does defend the Dumbledores fairly correctly. He seems… what I did was I made sure after reading this chapter, I actually hopped way ahead and I read the portion where Aberforth explains everything from his view. And where Doge defends the Dumbledores, he’s not incorrect.

Caleb: Right.

Michael: He’s defending them on the right points, that Kendra isn’t the woman that she might have seemed to be, that Ariana definitely had more going on with her than people knew…

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: He seems to know, but he won’t say. And Harry also notes that he finds Doge very frustrating because he feels that Doge isn’t saying everything. And Doge is so intent on saying, “Harry, remember Dumbledore as you knew him; as this great man with many accomplishments.” And it just seems so motivated by something else that’s not necessarily said, in my opinion.

Caleb: Yeah, I agree. I don’t think it’s just hero worship, as Muriel suggests. I think going beyond, discuss[ing] the family in a way that indicates you were close with the family in a way that not many people would. And it’s not just hero worship; I think that definitely lends to that.

Ed and Michael: Yeah.

Michael: I think this is almost easier to read as coded gay than Dumbledore and Grindelwald are.

Caleb: Yup. I agree.

Kristen: Yeah.

Caleb: Well, and it doesn’t have to be a mutual relationship, either, at least not going that far.

Michael: No.

Kristen: Mhm. Unrequited love, yeah.

Ed: No, I definitely think it wouldn’t be. I think it would be unrequited on Doge’s part. On Dumbledore’s part, sorry. He would have been obsessed with Grindelwald and Doge sort of loved him from afar.

Michael: And wouldn’t that be interesting? Because that’s what happened to Dumbledore. As Rowling claimed, Grindelwald had no feelings for Dumbledore and was using him. So wouldn’t that be interesting, that Dumbledore did the same thing to others, initially. Which in a way I like because early on we hear so much that Dumbledore is almost the opposite man of who we know, and I think that’s because Dumbledore has to go through those experiences. So not only to fall deeply in love and be rejected, but to reject somebody who was deeply in love with him right after that, I think, would be just as affecting to him in the long run. Confirm it, Rowling!

[Ed, Kristen, and Michael laugh]

Michael: Put it on Pottermore; there’s plenty of room.

[Ed and Michael laugh]

Kristen: Whoops. Yeah, too late for that.

[Michael laughs]

Caleb: I did notice that when Muriel calls Harry, a.k.a. Barny, not by either of those names but calls him Barry…

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Caleb: … that ends up being the name of J.K. Rowling’s protagonist – well, not protagonist, rather – the character who is the focus of the novel in The Casual Vacancy but takes it a couple of pages in, Barry Fairbrother. Because I remember when The Casual Vacancy came out, people made a big deal about Barry and Harry. There was obviously not much difference.

[Michael laughs]

Caleb: It just popped out at me this time. It was like, oh, that’s the name of her other book. But I wonder if that was conscious, if she realized that later on that she had already used that name. Probably not is my guess; it’s a pretty common name.

[Kristen laughs]

Ed: I just always read this as Muriel drunkenly hearing “Harry” and somewhere in her memory it was “Barny” and it just ran together.

Kristen: Mhm.

Caleb: Yeah.

Michael: It is fun because yeah, it is so close to his name. I have to wonder because – and you can stretch this to a lot of characters – but you could probably draw some pretty strong comparisons between Barry and Harry as characters, as far as what they represent to the other characters.

Caleb: Oh yeah, totally. You’re talking about Casual Vacancy Barry?

Michael: Yeah.

Caleb: Yeah.

Michael: Definitely. Yeah, not this Barry.

Kristen: Not cousin Barry.

Michael: He’s not even a Barry; he’s a Barny.

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Michael: He just is Harry with red hair.

[Kristen laughs]

Michael: But I mean, you could definitely stretch that. I wouldn’t be surprised if Rowling did that intentionally as kind of a shout-out to Harry.

Caleb: Yeah.

Michael: Because while Barry dies – and he dies almost immediately in the book and you never really actually meet him – he’s a very powerful figure who influences a lot of people’s actions. And he’s kind of seen as a… he’s put on a pedestal and kind of broken down, depending on which character you talk to. So there’s definitely similarities. I like that… what I like with Muriel and Doge, too, is that Rowling works so extra hard and she does it so well with who she has divulge this information and where the sources come from, too. We really are just kept guessing about who Dumbledore is, and this leaves us with more questions than answers. And Muriel and Doge, I think, so excellently represent the extremes of how you can view Dumbledore.

Ed: Mmm.

Michael: They’re not making a middle ground. Muriel just loves talking about the controversy and the horribleness of the Dumbledores.

Caleb: And importantly, neither one of them win Harry over here completely.

Michael: No, no, absolutely.

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah, that’s very true. I mean, I suppose in many ways Aberforth represents the middle ground.

Caleb: Mhm.

Michael: I think that’s also combined a little bit with Harry’s views.

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: But it’s so well done, how she just keeps us guessing.

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: And we just have no idea… really just the bombshells that are dropped here.

Kristen: Yup. Because they continue talking and we hear about Dumbledore’s mother’s death, Kendra, and how it was a mysterious death. And they talk about how they think it was Ariana who murdered Kendra. And Ed put in a little note that Doge says dismissively that Ariana…

Ed: Yo, he says it…

Kristen: … murdered Kendra.

Ed: He says it sarcastically, doesn’t he?

Kristen: Yeah. Like she didn’t murder her but was responsible for her death.

Ed: Is it just that… I thought it was a nice note when he was trying to dismiss everything that Muriel was saying.

Kristen: Mhm.

Ed: Just sort of blowing out of porportion, “Oh, I’m sure Ariana murdered her as well.” And then Muriel just says, “Oh, well, maybe if she was making a desperate bid for freedom,” that kind of thing.

Kristen: Mhm.

Ed: But we find out later that it was Ariana’s actions that led to Kendra’s death, that she had an outburst and that Kendra wasn’t as young as she used to be, that kind of thing. So what Doge says is in a weird way true. I just thought it was a nice callback.

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: Yeah. Well, yeah, and he says it sarcastically and then…

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: … Muriel kind of takes it farther.

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: And I think every time I’ve… still to this day, every time I read that line, that line makes me sick. Because she takes… the way Muriel takes such glee in it, and it is so tragic…

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: … how this really happens. And Kristen, I know you and I probably can get into this a lot and we probably will in future chapters, but Ariana is a very obvious parallel for individuals with disabilities…

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: … and what happened, of course. And again, if you flip back… if you haven’t done it, listeners, I recommend actually going straight to Aberforth’s explanation right after you read this chapter, because it is fascinating to read the two back-to-back. And it is heartbreaking what actually happens with Ariana and her mother because it’s something that I think…

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: If you have an individual with a disability in your family who is prone to violence, then this is a very relatable story in so many ways.

Kristen: Definitely.

Michael: And it kind of just makes me feel a little icky every time Muriel says that, taking such glee and these kind of over-the-top concepts.

Kristen: Oh no, I completely agree.

Caleb: Right, because it’s a horrible progression, right? It starts off so amusing and humorous, for it’s this old woman who’s slightly off her rocker and just loves the latest gossip, to something very, very sinister in the way she, like you said…

Michael: Yeah.

Caleb: … the way she takes glee in it.

Michael: Yeah, it’s almost – I didn’t think of that until you said it, Caleb – it’s actually kind of a parallel of the “Aunt Marge’s Big Mistake” chapter.

Caleb: Hmm.

Michael: Because it’s the same concept of an aunt who kind of starts out funny and amusing with how absurd she is.

Kristen: Yeah, and drunk. Mhm.

Michael: Yeah. And she’s drunk, and then as she gets more and more drunk, the things she says turns far more sinister and unpleasant.

Kristen: Yeah. Definitely.

Michael: Because there’s just some horrible suggestions that come out of this from Muriel.

Kristen: And talking about the claims that Ariana was just a Squib and just being locked into the house…

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah.

Kristen: It just gets crazy. And then about Ariana’s death as well.

Ed: That bit always reminds me of Prince John, who is the current Queen’s uncle who died when he was about 9 or 13 – I can’t remember, but he had epilepsy and autism and was sort of hidden away and died very young. And Ariana’s story always makes me think of that as a drama called “The Lost Prince” which is heartbreaking. But it’s about the attitudes that happened around the time aimed towards the people who are epileptic and autistic around the turn of the century.

Kristen: Mhm.

Ed: And that’s what Ariana’s story always reminds me of.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. So around the time that the Dumbledores – that this family unit would have existed – it’s interesting that wizards have the same view of disability, which is to institutionalize them.

Kristen: Mhm.

Ed: Mmm.

Michael: Which runs directly parallel with the Muggle view of what to do with children with disabilities at that time.

Kristen: Mhm. Yeah, especially definitely at that time.

Michael: Yes. And to think that it’s an outdated concept, it’s not. Many parents today are still told to institutionalize their child.

Ed and Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: And Rowling fights even now with her charity Lumos to end the institutionalization of children. So she’s also very aware that this is still a current issue…

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: I get so much glee actually that she did this story because I was not expecting this story at all in Deathly Hallows – in the last book. It’s a real nice thing to see a story like this because it’s very… even though Rowling may not have experience with every mental disability, she portrays it really well…

Ed: Mmm.

Kristen: Oh, definitely.

Michael: It’s a very honest take on how this is treated and how the public treats individuals with disabilities.

Kristen: Mhm. And how the public sees it… just walking away instead of trying to help.

Michael: Mhm. Yeah, it’s very well done.

Kristen: Mhm. It was also mentioned that Dumbledore’s family members died in Godric’s Hollow.

Caleb: Which gives Harry some whiplash.

Ed: Yeah.

Kristen: Completely shocked that Dumbledore never mentioned this fact at all. I liked how he did go in and was like… is Dumbledore passing by his parents as well when he goes to see his family members?

Michael: Hmm…

Kristen: Are they buried in the same area of the graveyard?

Michael: Yeah, the first time I read this I was just as shocked as Harry.

Kristen: Oh, me too.

Michael: This is a big bomb that just comes at the end because it’s… like you said, Kristen, the way that Harry ruminates on it is what makes it so tragic – this weird thing where Harry starts to feel like Dumbledore didn’t care about him. He had started to crawl in because this is such an obvious relatable point that Dumbledore never…

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: And I think the reason it hurts is because Dumbledore… it’s almost like Dumbledore could have gone with Harry to his parents’ grave.

Ed: Yeah.

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: And he didn’t, and there was an obvious reason to do it.

Kristen: Yeah, definitely.

Ed: Yeah.

Kristen: That really hit home.

Ed: Are we going to talk about Aberforth breaking Albus’s nose?

[Kristen laughs]

Michael: We should. What do you think about it, Ed?

Ed: I just think it’s… well, I always wondered what is Aberforth’s actual opinion? Because although we do have his side of the story much later in the book, what does think Aberforth think happened? Does he think Albus actually killed Ariana? Does he think Grindelwald killed Ariana? And also, does Aberforth know about Albus being in love with Grindelwald? There’s just a lot there, and obviously Aberforth is a more emotional character than Albus is, so I could imagine his grief manifesting itself physically as it does. But there’s a big question mark over what set him off at the funeral.

Michael: I think it’s the same kind of issue as Ariana killing Kendra – that Aberforth doesn’t think Dumbledore did it but he thinks he’s responsible for it…

Ed: Mhm.

Michael: … is what I would say. Because what’s interesting about that, what Muriel says… and it’s interesting because she says this and she’s confused by it because she can’t… in her warped mind she can’t justify it. Doge probably could’ve if he had said something…

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: … but Dumbledore takes that responsibility by letting Aberforth punch him in the nose. Because he doesn’t defend himself.

Ed: And never heals it either. His nose is always crooked, isn’t it?

Michael: Yeah.

Kristen: Yup.

Michael: Yes, which is something that we know can be healed by magic easily. Maybe that’s what the Episkey thing is for in Half-Blood Prince. That is interesting that he might have left that as a permanent reminder to himself.

Kristen: As a constant reminder to himself, yup.

Michael: Yeah, I think that… because from what I read, Aberforth… initially Aberforth does also partially hold Dumbledore not just responsible, but he actually might still think he did it. But I think Harry’s words confirm to Aberforth that he didn’t actually shoot the Killing Curse, and that Aberforth comes to understand later that Dumbledore lived with that guilt.

Ed and Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: But I think he had enough reason just based on what’s explained to punch him in the face.

[Ed and Michael laugh]

Ed: Yeah.

Kristen: Oh, yeah. Definitely.

Michael: And we’ll keep discussing that as we go on, but that is also a multi-layered, complicated thing.

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: I don’t know what you found, Kristen, but there are individuals in this world who are cut out to care for individuals with disabilities for their whole life. And it truly requires you giving your life to this individual…

Kristen: Mhm. Definitely.

Michael: … your life, your time. And there are individuals who are not cut out for it.

Kristen: I see that, too. [laughs]

Michael: Yeah. And I personally say, as much as I love my brother, my parents have already resigned to the fact that I’m not taking care of him. They have found people to take care of him who have become wonderful family friends. And I knew that in myself that I wasn’t cut out to take care of Charlie, and I think in a similar way Dumbledore knew he wasn’t cut out to do it either. Aberforth certainly knew, and Aberforth was one of those people who was willing to give his life to Ariana.

Kristen: Yeah.

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: So there’s layers to that. I think a lot of the fandom is very quick to jump on Dumbledore for his behavior in this family feud, and I think we should be careful about that.

Kristen: Mhm. No, I completely agree with you on that.

Michael: Yeah. So yeah, Kristen, you work with multiple families, so I know that you know how that manifests.

Kristen: Oh, yeah. [laughs]

Michael: Yeah. But we can’t talk about it because there’s HIPAA laws about that.

Kristen: Yup.

[Everyone laughs]

Kristen: And then the last thing we see at the end of this chapter is a lynx Patronus from Kingsley that gives out the message: “The Ministry has fallen. Scrimgeour is dead. They are coming.” I have to say this part in the movie gets me every time.

Ed: Yeah.

Kristen: I love how they did this. [laughs]

Caleb: I really loved rereading just the description of the lynx before it even starts talking. I don’t have the book in front of me so I can’t remember what the language is, but there’s a clear feel to this lynx being very strong and commanding the attention of the room before the message even gets out. Which goes to the describe Kingsley so well, especially we… knowing how be becomes a leader at the end of the series. Kingsley is one of my favorite characters in the series…

Ed: Yeah.

Caleb: … and he get such little air time. But there is such strong concrete description of his Patronus showing up at the wedding that I really loved.

Kristen: Yeah.

Ed: I always… when I read this for the first time, I just thought that Kingsley is the coolest man on the planet.

[Michael laughs]

Kristen: I mean, “Dumbledore’s got style.” That line is the best!

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: The passage that Caleb’s talking about reads as follows. It says, “At that moment, something large and silver came falling through the canopy over the dance floor. Graceful and gleaming, the lynx landed lightly in the middle of the astonished dancers. Heads turned, as those nearest it froze absurdly in mid-dance. Then the Patronus’s mouth opened wide and it spoke in the loud, deep, slow voice of Kingsley Shacklebolt. ‘The Ministry has fallen. Scrimgeour is dead. They are coming.'” Which is just fabulous. I love that…

Kristen: Yeah, that whole part…

Michael: You’re right, Kristen. I miss that it’s actually a lynx because the movie… after the third movie never shows the Patronus as animals.

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: But I do like… that’s not true, they show it in the fifth movie too.

Ed: Mhm.

Kristen: Yeah, you see the cat in the seventh one. [laughs]

Michael: Yeah, but they… I like how the way that the actor Harris he read it, because he actually sounds like he’s hiding while he’s saying it.

Kristen: Mhm.

Ed: Yeah.

Michael: And he’s actually witnessing it. And you see imagery of the Ministry going down.

Kristen: Yeah, that was so cool.

Michael: Which is very nicely done.

Ed: “They are coming.”

Kristen: “They are coming.” Oh, that’s perfect. It’s great.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Yeah, we got that line in the trailer. It was a nice bit of foreshadowing.

Kristen: Mhm.

Caleb: Mhm.

Ed: Yeah.

[Michael laughs]

Ed: How do you imagine that the Ministry did fall? Was it a battle or was Scrimgeour just murdered? I always… that’s always been a question mark in my head. And the films sort of implies that there was a full blown battle, but it’s not really covered in the book. But it’s quite a big thing.

Caleb: Yeah.

Kristen: Yeah.

Caleb: Yeah, I always just assumed that they finally just got enough people in there…

Kristen: Mhm. Yeah, to infiltrate…

Caleb: They were able to…. they had a coordinated attack… and we know at least that they were able to surround Scrimgeour and that’s when he wouldn’t give up Harry’s location.

Michael: Was Scrimgeour personally killed by Voldemort?

Ed: I think so.

Caleb: I think that he might have, so…

Kristen: Yeah.

Caleb: I can’t remember now… I think the character that I’m thinking of now that I know was personally killed was… that they theorize that Amelia Bones was maybe personally killed by him.

Michael: Oh.

Caleb: Scrimgeour I am not sure.

Kristen: I wouldn’t think so. He could have anybody could do that.

Caleb: He was in the Ministry… it’s probably Rookwood or…

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: I’m going to see if there’s actually… because I guess we can’t already know for sure because there’s no first hand account.

Kristen: Mhm.

Michael: Let’s see if it’s mentioned. I’m using the Wiki is a resource, but that’s not a definitive resource.

[Kristen laughs]

Michael: Because they combine movie canon.

Caleb: Sure.

Michael: Assassination, it’s possibly mentioned in Chapter 11, but it seems like it looks either in the Daily Prophet or by Lupin directly it looks like it was Voldemort.

Kristen: Hmm.

Michael: So it might have been Voldemort personally, which, I mean, at this point, before it would have been crazy for Voldemort to walk into the Ministry but now?

Kristen: That’s true but now, yeah. Like, “I got this.”

Michael: It’s not unheard of. Well, I think that would have been final cherry on the final “takeover cake,” that Voldemort is physically in the Ministry now.

Kristen: Yeah, that’s true.

Michael: And it’s not a problem. That’s the final sign. I’m inclined to think – like you were pondering, Ed – that it was probably a pretty violent takeover…

Ed: Mhm.

Michael: … by the Death Eaters or were just staged in the right places. And they probably killed a few people just to assert their authority.

Ed: Yeah, like a palace coup type thing.

Kristen and Michael: Yeah.

Michael: It’s worth noting too… I thought just to point out for the listeners that I thought a lynx was an especially interesting Patronus to an assign.

Kristen: Yeah, I want one.

Michael: [laughs] Kristen already knows her Patronus. She doesn’t need to take the test when it comes out.

[Kristen laughs]

Michael: The lynx just does a quick… when you look it up just as far as its mythology, it actually has mythology in Greek, Norse, and America. It’s considered an allusive and mysterious creature, known in some traditions as a keeper of secrets. It’s also known to have supernatural eyesight, capable of seeing through solid objects and it often symbolizes the unraveling of hidden truths. Which, perfect for this moment and its appearance.

Kristen: Yeah.

Caleb: This moment, yeah.

Michael: This is probably the biggest unraveling of hidden truths yet…

[Kristen laughs]

Michael: … so far in Deathly Hallows.

Kristen: With that, that concludes our chapter. What a great way to end it with, “They’re all coming for you.”

[Caleb laughs]

Michael: They’re coming to your party.

[Caleb, Ed, and Kristen laugh]

Michael: It’s going to be so fun!

Kristen: “They’re coming” and that’s it.

Caleb: They are literally crashing it.

Kristen: And not in a good way.

Michael: And before we end our episode today listeners, we have one more business to cover, the Podcast Question of the Week. And for this one I was contemplating wands because Krum and Harry have a very interesting conversation about wands that’s really going to kick off a lot of wand discussion throughout Deathly Hallows and my question was,

“During Krum’s encounter with Harry, Krum idly mentions the Eastern European belief that Gregorovitch is a superior wand maker to Ollivander, if not one of the best wand makers in the world. On Pottermore, Ollivander provides a thorough catalog of the wand woods and cores he is willing to use, and even mentions a few that he thinks are too volatile, such as Thestral and Veela hairs, to use in wandmaking, which Gregorovitch is happy to use. What wand woods and cores do you think other wand makers, like Gregorovitch, use that Ollivander does not? What about these wand woods and cores might make them ideal, or even dangerous?”

And listeners, I highly suggest if you are seeking out inspiration to not only look on Pottermore, although you may been there a while because the search function is not that helpful anymore, or check out a copy of Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them, which has a lot of suggestions about magical animals that you might be able to take for cores that some wizards are willing to use for wand cores. There are some unusual things that we’ve seen as wand woods and wand cores throughout the series. So think on that and let us know your answers by going to alohomora.mugglenet.com.

Kristen: And we also want to thank our guest for being on the show. Thank you so much.

Ed: Thank you very much for having me. I really enjoyed myself.

And if you’d like to join us as a guest as well, just head over to our “Be on the Show” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. All you need is a set of headphones and you will be all set. No fancy equipment is needed. And while you’re there, you can download one of our ringtones for free.

Michael: See, I feel bad because Ed’s British and I didn’t hit on him.

Ed: I was going to say, actually, the last time you had a British…

[Kristen laughs]

Michael: Were you going to say something? Because I felt really bad. I was like, “Should I just hold…” I was trying to be nice and hold back so I didn’t scare you away.

[Everyone laughs]

Ed: Very offended.

[Everyone laughs]

Kristen: He was trying to find somebody to go to the Studio Tour with. Geez.

[Caleb laughs]

Michael: Yeah, no, I got it, Kristen. I got it.

[Kristen laughs]

Michael: You win this round.

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Michael: And listeners, if you would like to be hit on by me…

[Ed laughs]

Michael: … there are a lot of ways to have that done.

[Caleb, Kristen, and Michael laugh]

Michael: You can contact Alohomora! to be hit on by me or otherwise at @AlohomoraMN – our Twitter handle – at facebook.com/openthedumbledore, our Tumblr – mnalohomorapodcast – our phone number – 206-GO-ALBUS, 206-462-5287 – or send an audioBoom, which you can do at alohomora.mugglenet.com – that’s on our main site. You’ll see the little app on the right side in the bar over on the right. It is free. All you need is a microphone. Just make sure and keep your messages under sixty seconds, please, so that we can play them on the show. If you have any complimentary words for me over on audioBoom, maybe I’ll send you some complimentary words back.

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Michael: Yes, I’m single and desperate. [laughs]

Kristen: [laughs] Right there with you. Don’t worry.

[Michael laughs]

Kristen: And while you’re over there, don’t forget to check out our store where you can house shirts, Desk!Pig, Mandrake Liberation Front, my favorite Minerva is my homegirl, and so much more.

Caleb: Also make sure to check out our smartphone app, which is seemingly available around the world. Prices will vary on location. It has really great things like transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and much more.

Michael: Well. We have got to get out of here because they are coming, as Kristen pointed out.

[Kristen and Michael laugh]

Michael: So that’s the end of this episode of Alohomora! I’m Michael Harle.

Caleb: I’m Caleb Graves.

Kristen: And I’m Kristen Keys.

[Show music begins]

Kristen: Thank you for listening to Episode 158 of Alohomora!

Michael: Open the Dumbledore. They are coming.

[Show music continues]