Transcript – Episode 96
[Show music begins]
Michael Harle: This is Episode 96 of Alohomora! for August 9, 2014.
[Show music continues]
Michael: Hello, listeners, and welcome back to our global reread of Harry Potter. I’m Michael Harle.
Kat Miller: I’m Kat Miller.
Caleb Graves: And I’m Caleb Graves. And our special guest today is a fellow MuggleNet staffer: Alison Siggard, but you may know her as Ali Wood around the Alohomora! realm. Hey, Alison! Thanks for joining us today.
Alison Siggard: Hey, guys. How’s it going?
Kat: Most excellent. Thanks for coming back for joining us for another chapter.
Alison: Yeah…
Michael: She’s back.
Alison: I know, you can’t get rid of me.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Kat: We wouldn’t want to.
[Alison laughs]
Kat: So tell us why – or tell the listeners, I suppose – you wanted to join us for this chapter.
Alison: Well, I don’t think it’s really a secret that Order of the Phoenix is probably not my favorite Harry Potter book…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: … kind of at the bottom of my list. I just have a serious problem with angsty Harry, despite all he’s been through. It just annoys me. But the one thing I really do love about this book is the creation of Dumbledore’s Army and since that’s what chapter we’re on, it’s the perfect one to be on.
Kat: Excellent. And I guess, that’s perfect segue for me to remind the listeners out there that we are talking about Chapter 18 this week, “Dumbledore’s Army,” so read it before you listen and it will be more enjoyable experience.
Caleb: But before we do that, we’re going to take a step back and look at some of your comments for when we discussed Chapter 17, which now is actually two weeks ago because we just got back from LeakyCon and before we get into the comments, I thought we could quickly talk about how did you think of LeakyCon? Was it awesome? What… Michael you had a lot of costumes, how did that go?
Michael: Ugh, it’s so nice not to be wearing like five layers anymore…
[Kat laughs]
Michael: … and out of the humidity of Florida but it was totally worth it. I have no regrets because being able to go to the… this was my first time even at Universal Studios – I’ve never been to that park – and to go to the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, I did it two days. One day, I did it just me as a Hufflepuff student and the last day I was dressed as 19 years later Harry. And it was just an incredible experience to feel so fully immersed in the world of Harry Potter, just absolutely unforgettable experience. And then with the convention on top of that, I didn’t get much sleep…
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: … that’s the best way to summarize it.
Kat: Yeah, that’s the norm.
Kat and Michael: Yeah.
Caleb: Most people…
Alison: The pictures looked awesome, though, of Michael’s costumes that I saw.
Caleb: They were.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: Aww, thank you.
[Kat laughs]
Caleb: And we were talking about it earlier, Michael is featured in a BuzzFeed article of cosplay from LeakyCon, so you should check it out. He’s dressed up as Emmett from The Lego Movie.
Michael: I love Emmett. [singing] Everything is awesome.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: I had so many people yelling that at me just as I’m walking down the hall, so… Emmett was actually probably the most unexpected reception for a costume. I was pretty sure people weren’t even going to know or care, but that one was the one that probably got the best reception out of all… and then the rest of them were Harry Potter costumes and people were like, “Oh yeah, we know those.” So…
Kat: Well, that movie has a crazy following, so…
Michael: It does now, yeah.
Kat: Plus, it’s out of the norm, so…
Michael: Yeah.
Kat: … if that makes sense.
Michael: Something unusual, so…
Kat: Right, exactly.
Caleb: And we did get to meet some of you guys at our live show, so that was super awesome. Thanks for coming and joining us. And now we’re back to hitting the audio waves.
Michael: Without pizza.
Caleb: Without pizza, yeah.
Michael: [laughs] Sadly.
Caleb: All right. So our first comment from our discussion on Chapter 17 is on the topic of Dumbledore and not choosing to hire Snape for Defense Against the Dark Arts professor, and this is from DolphinPatronus on the main site:
“I don’t think Dumbledore hired [a] ‘disposable’ DADA teacher intentionally. If that were the case, why would he have hired Lupin? He seemed to like Lupin well enough[, so] why would he hire him thinking he might die? I think Dumbledore’s reasons for not giving Snape the job sooner are simply trying to avoid putting Snape in a tempting situation. He needs Snape around for his plan to work. Even though the job is to teach [how] to defend [yourself] against the dark arts it’s still exposure to the dark arts in some form. I think giving a reformed Death Eater that job would be like hiring a recovering alcoholic to teach a bartending course. It’s just too much temptation.”
And then a quick follow-up comment. StoneHallows on the forum said,
“I think there is another reason behind Dumbledore not giving Snape the DADA yet – he doesn’t want to SEEM too trusting! With Snape working as a double agent, even if Albus was completely convinced without a shred of doubt that Snape was now his man, he wouldn’t want to display that to the world, and especially not to Voldemort!”
Michael: Yeah. I’m more in agreement with DolpinPatronus in that I think, because Dumbledore is – as we find out – pretty acutely aware that there is an actual curse. He seems to be the only one who knows, since he knows that Voldemort placed it where as everybody else spreads it around like a rumor where nobody’s entirely sure that it’s an actual curse. And to put Snape in that position when Snape is such an important player in his plans. Obviously he finally puts him in that position when he knows he needs Snape to leave because he has… Harry’s Year 6 is very, very carefully planned out by Dumbledore. So yeah, I would think he was just saving that for later.
Alison: Do we know when Dumbledore finds out about the curse?
Michael: I’m not sure.
Kat: I don’t think so.
Michael: I know he knows, I just don’t know when he… because Voldemort essentially casts it when he leaves after an attempt at getting an interview, right?
Alison: Yeah.
Kat: Right.
Caleb: So that’s a long time of one year stints.
Michael: Yeah. And notwithstanding that Dumbledore would probably figured it out after a time.
Caleb: Right.
Michael: Because he’s smarter than everybody else as he always says. As headmaster, he does seem to have a very close relationship with Hogwarts itself. He seems to be a little more in the know about things at Hogwarts than other people anyway.
Caleb: Yeah.
Michael: So maybe there’s a way that the castle actually could inform him of that situation.
Caleb: All right, so the next comment comes along a lesser discussed point, but I still thought it was pretty interesting and it’s on the topic of the Gryffindor girls’ dormitory slide, when the stairs turn into a slide when the boys try to climb it, and this is from AccioPotassium! on the main site:
“In this chapter, we were introduced to the secret defense mechanism of the Gryffindor girls’ dormitory. The philosophy of the staircase seems to be similar to that of an adult unicorn, in which the unicorn distrust[s] the masculine persona based on slightly true stereotypes of men. However, there is an important detail [that] needs to be discussed. How does the slightly sexist staircase detect the individual sex of a person?”
Michael: [laughs] Oh, Noah. Where is Noah right now?
Alison: [laughs] Oh, gosh.
Caleb: [continues]
“Could the insentient staircase be judging its decision solely on the appearance of a person? If so, this staircase has some controversial problems, and this method has some major flaws in its protection. What if a young woman has a more masculine appearance? Would the staircase falsely reject this individual as being a man? What is stopping a male from just changing their appearance with Polyjuice Potion or self-transfiguration into a woman?”
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Whoa.
Alison: Oh no. [laughs]
Caleb: I love that it just takes it so far, like yes, let’s ask these questions.
Kat: Right.
Caleb: I love it.
Michael: Hmm.
Alison: Hmm. DNA. [laughs] Maybe that’s it.
Kat: I wonder if it comes down to like a name thing, maybe? Not necessarily because… I mean, it’s a staircase. It can’t see who is walking up there. Maybe it’s something having to do with… because like the quill when a magical person is born, their name gets written down. So maybe it’s something having to do with that book and the stairs know who is supposed to be in the dormitory and who is not. I don’t know. I don’t think it sees, though. I don’t think it’s on appearance, personally.
Alison: Hmm.
Michael: Essentially this question is raising the issue of if somebody of transgender went to Hogwarts.
Caleb: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: It’s kind of touching on that without saying it, which I don’t even know how to examine that because Rowling hasn’t given any insight into that. I mean, she has… the one thing she has said at least about homosexual individuals in the community – which is not the same as transgender, but it’s the closest thing she’s said to it – is that wizards don’t really care about that kind of stuff because they’ve already got their own built-in prejudices towards other things like half-bloods and Mudbloods, as they call them, et cetera. So they don’t really take those kinds of things into account, apparently, according to her. But Hogwarts and the idea of the staircase, and Hermione even says it is a very antiquated idea, and that shows a bias towards gender, so I don’t… I have to wonder if that would present a problem in that case. And as far as students taking Polyjuice Potion or self-transfiguring, or if you had say like a Metamorphmagus like Tonks, who would be a case like that because as far as I can tell based on the rules of that she couldn’t swap genders if she so desired.
Alison: No.
Michael: I don’t really know. The only thing that’s even remotely addressed this, oddly enough, is the
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: … because there are certain areas you can’t get into unless you are a different gender, but usually it’s a portrait, and the portrait will… when Harry and Ron have to go into the girls’ bathroom to rescue Hermione, the portrait won’t let them in because they are boys, so they have to go make a Polyjuice Potion and Harry turns into a girl. It just switches his LEGO hair to girl LEGO hair [laughs] and then it lets him in.
Alison: That’s pretty random.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Caleb: Maybe the staircase is just somehow connected to the Sorting. So when girls get sorted into different Houses, the stairs… and the different Houses I’m sure there are similar parallels where the girls of that house and maybe only staff members are able to get up it, and anyone else isn’t, so by default boys can’t get up it.
Alison: That would make sense.
Kat: Yeah, I mean that’s… yeah, kind of what I was touching on, but with the Sorting Hat that makes sense.
Michael: I think if there was a case of a transgender student, though – because that is what the question is presenting – I think that the… we have seen that the teachers do bend over backwards to make things work for students, as evidenced by Lupin. So I would like to think that they would do everything they could to make something work if the staircase were being unruly. I’m sure they have ways to get around those charms or make exceptions for the magic. I mean, the one thing I can only think of to reference that’s in the books, in canon, is when Flitwick actually talks to the doors and teaches them to recognize Sirius Black.
Caleb: Hmm, yeah.
Michael: So if you can talk to the doors, maybe you can have a chat with the stairs too.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Caleb: Just when you’re lonely.
Kat: I just like that AccioPotassium! called it the “slightly sexist staircase.”
[Alison laughs]
Kat: I don’t know.
Michael: That’s going on a T-shirt.
Kat: Oh, yeah.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: That should, actually. That’s a good one.
Caleb: All right, and the last comment comes on the topic of Luna and Hermione being metaphors for faith and skepticism, and this comes from SheFlooLikeAMadman on the forums:
“My knee-jerk reaction to the idea of Luna/Hermione as metaphors for faith/skepticism was to reject it, but the more I think about it, the more likely it seems! Luna is so deeply associated with the Big Mysteries of the Potter world, which Hermione understandably has little-to-no handle on: primarily Death/the possible existence of an afterlife. This is cued up, of course, by her ability to see the Thestrals, indicating that she […] already has a unique perspective on something Harry is only just beginning to understand. By the end of the year, Luna reveals that marvellous unflinching certainty she has that she will see her loved ones again. The fact that this is borne out by events in DH (when Harry actually does see his loved ones again) cements the idea that spiritual faith (in the Potter verse) is a good thing. Which is unsurprising, given Jo’s beliefs. For all the nonsense she spouts, Luna has a great deal of wisdom for one so young, and it’s all based on faith! It’s actually very important to introduce this character and this idea into the books because it explains how Harry is later able to make such great leaps of faith. If he’d never met someone like Luna, he’d never have had that evidence that trusting your instincts can work out. Sure, his instincts turned out to be right when he was telling Lupin to go back to Tonks, but trusting your gut is much more difficult when the stakes are as high as they are at the end of DH!”
Michael: Hmm. That was a very good, very loaded response.
Caleb: Yeah. I just really like that it points it out in a way that I guess we haven’t really talked about, since we’re just now getting to Luna, obviously. But definitely I hadn’t thought about before why Luna is so important to Harry in his journey.
Michael: Hmm. We touched on this with the previous Podcast Question of the Week and more specifically in how Hermione and Luna are at odds with one another…
Caleb: Hmm, true.
Michael: … versus how they affect characters outside of each other. But yeah, no, I think that’s exactly it as SheFlooLikeAMadman said. It’s that Luna is meant to give this… I think Harry already has a mind for theorizing as we see in a lot of the books because Hermione is the one who often shoots down his theories. Ron even has more of a mind for that, I think. But I think that it’s right to say that Luna gives him that ability to be comfortable with going on blind faith as we will definitely see. I mean, it does start here, but we will definitely see it in Deathly Hallows. It becomes extremely important to Harry’s final journey and quest to make sure that he believes in things that don’t have any proof, especially when Hermione is right there saying, “No, that can’t be right.”
Kat: Yeah, and I’ve always said that this book is super important for Harry. There’s a lot of lessons that he learns about himself in this book that, as SheFlooLikeAMadman had pointed out, if he didn’t learn these lessons in this book, he wouldn’t have been able to do the things that he had to do later on. And Luna is a huge part of that. So I completely agree with this entire comment. It’s perfect.
Alison: I’m not sure, though. I don’t think he quite goes to the extent Luna does. I feel like Hermione and Luna being such opposites, they meet in the perfect middle with Harry because Luna has such blind faith in everything but Hermione needs proof. But I think we see Harry finds, if he has some connecting proof, for example with the Resurrection Stone… well, he’s seen the Cloak, he’s seen the Wand, so why shouldn’t he think that the Stone is going to do the same thing? So I think Harry balances the two out almost between their extremes.
Michael: Mhm.
Kat: Yeah, I think Luna helps Harry see the things that he might not be quite ready to see or willing to see. And Hermione helps him stay grounded from Luna. You’re right.
Alison: Yeah.
Kat: Perfect mix right in the middle.
Caleb: Yeah. Thanks for those comments, guys. There’s a ton more, a lot of great thoughts, even branching off some of these. So be sure to check those out on the main site and in the forums.
Michael: And before we move on to Chapter 18 this week, we’re going to look back two weeks to the Podcast Question of the Week that I believe was presented by Eric. Eric was pondering about Professor Binns, a character that we rarely give some thought to. So the question is,
“In this chapter as Harry struggles to bring aid to his injured owl, Professor Binns grants his leave by addressing him as ‘Perkins.’ This seemingly random name is shared by Arthur Weasley’s co-worker. Just what similarity, if any, does Harry share with Arthur’s cube-mate, and what world is Professor Binns in that he makes this naming blunder?”
I should note that many of you pointed out that this is a very similar theory to the whole Mark Evans situation we had in this book where we heard a familiar surname and made a lot of assumptions based on it. So a lot of you seemed to enjoy going back to that mentality again. And the first suggestion we had was from surprisinglyswishy, who said,
“Perhaps it has nothing to do with Arthur’s co-worker at all. What if Binns lost the ability to learn new names when he died, so he just reuses names from the last class he ever had? What if he doesn’t even realize this is a new class and just wants to know why Perkins dyed his hair and when he got rid of that horrible wart? I think a bigger question is what’s going to happen in 100 or 200 years when Binns is still teaching and has no idea about any ‘recent’ history? Will Hogwarts students never learn about the Battle of Hogwarts or Voldemort at all? It would be like history teachers today never mentioning the world wars. Not to say that students shouldn’t study the goblin rebellions, but recent history is, perhaps, the most important part of history in regards to making decisions about the current world.”
And a lot of this, I should note, came from… a lot of this particular theorizing – because there were a lot more comments similar to this, that perhaps Professor Binns and his lessons are stuck in stasis – comes from Rowling’s mention on Pottermore about ghosts not being able to learn very much more past what they already know after they’ve died. Thoughts?
Kat: Right, and I loved this when I was reading through. I think this is completely plausible because he probably didn’t write any new notes. He’s probably, yeah, exactly, reading from all of his old notes and thinking it’s all the same students. I mean, he didn’t realize that he died, right?
Alison and Michael: Mhm.
Kat: So he probably doesn’t realize much of anything.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: Well, he’s a ghost. He doesn’t have to sleep or eat or anything. So how does he know how much time has passed, necessarily?
Kat: Right.
Michael: Well, yeah, and that got into a bigger question that definitely branched off in the comments that I didn’t pick any for because they went a little too far off of the main question. But it does go into the idea of how ghosts operate even more in Rowling’s world because a lot of people were asking because they’ve heard… there are theories about ghosts that perhaps once they have completed their unfinished business, that they are able to actually pass on. If any of you have seen the movie Casper you’ll know exactly what I’m talking about…
Caleb: Casper?
Michael: … versus the idea that maybe ghosts can’t ever move on in Rowling’s world. And she has never really confirmed how that works. It’s vaguely explained with Nearly Headless Nick at the end of this book, but a definitive answer is not really given. So that is partly dependent on knowing how much Professor Binns can continue to learn, and how stuck he is in his development.
Kat: And I mean, unfortunately, Pottermore is now done with Goblet of Fire…
Michael: Mhm.
Kat: … so any other question we come up with, if Jo is listening, she might not be able to answer it. That’s sad. That’s sad.
Michael: [laughs] We’ve still got time. We’ve still got time.
Kat: A little bit.
Michael: There are still some books left. [laughs]
Kat: No, right, that’s true.
Michael: And our next comment comes from ChocolateFrogRavenclaw, who says,
“I think there is a connection between Arthur’s co-worker and Professor Binns’s comment because Harry, Ron, and Hermione end up living in Perkins’s tent in Deathly Hallows. While I think the only reasons Professor Binns called Harry ‘Perkins’ is because he is old, forgetful, and really not very invested in his students (he doesn’t even notice when they talk and pass notes his entire class – his focus is on the subject matter), I think it is, in a sense, an Easter Egg for readers. Harry, Ron, and Hermione are going to go through a lot in that tent. The events that take place in and around that tent will stay with and define Harry for the rest of his life. To me, this is just an early reference to that. Already, Harry is starting to be associated with these events, even if just by the name of the person whose tent will keep him safe and give him shelter for his journey.”
How about that theory, huh?
Caleb: I dig it.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: I like it. That’s so interesting.
Michael: I felt that was a pretty fun theory to read just because, as everybody was mentioning with the Mark Evans thing, this, I think, is definitely in line with that level of theorizing…
Caleb: [laughs] Yeah.
Kat: Mhm, yeah.
Michael: … that we haven’t had in a very long time, in regards to Harry Potter. Personally, I do think it is a… I would love to think this is actually the case. And I know Rowling doesn’t do a lot of things for no reason. But she did admit that Mark Evans was a mistake on her part so I have to wonder if Perkins wasn’t the same thing, because I don’t… do we know how much of Hallows she would have had plotted out by this point?
Kat: Ooh. I don’t know. I guess it depends on how far ahead she wrote, right?
Michael: Yeah. Because we’re past the three-year hurdle between Goblet and Order.
Kat: I doubt she would have picked out whose tent they were going to use.
Michael: Mm. Well, see, then that is interesting because the tent is such a prominent piece of Goblet to come back. So was it being put there for foreshadowing when it was put there? Or did she think back to it when she was writing Hallows and say, “Oh, yeah! I already have a tent they can use!”
Kat: I would say that’s the more likely option, personally.
Michael: Exactly.
Alison: Yeah, that seems like a very small detail to have planned out that far in advance.
Michael: Definitely. I think I would be in agreement with that. And our last comment from Laura Albert definitely is in agreement with that. Laura says,
“Harry is not the only student whose name Binns gets incorrect. In Chamber he also calls Seamus ‘Mr. O’Flaherty,’ Parvati ‘Miss Pennyfeather,’ and Hermione ‘Miss Grant.’ I think Professor Binns just doesn’t pay enough attention/care enough to remember everyone’s/anyone’s name. Also, isn’t he supposed to be old? Like, that he was old the day he died? So it could be that he has trouble remembering things in general, due to age or possible Alzheimer’s disease or dementia. Oh, and I believe it’s not related to Perkins who works with Arthur in the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts office. Just coincidence.”
Michael: A few comments actually did note that Professor Binns was actually elderly when he passed away.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: So he was already possibly losing his memory and couldn’t really keep track of students to begin with.
Kat: I just like how all the names that Binns used vaguely sound like Bond people…
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: … like people you would find in the Bond series.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Kat: Like Pennyfeather and O’Flaherty and all that. I don’t know. They sound very cinematic, I guess.
Michael: Well, and that’s why I always figured that this is more the case than perhaps it being a reference to Perkins, and the actual Perkins being in a past class because the names that Binns uses on the students aren’t… they’re not close to their names, but they’re not that far away.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: Grant is not far from Granger. I imagine, if Binns really is that forgetful, Pennyfeather is a lot easier to say and pronounce than Parvati. [laughs] And Mr. O’Flaherty for Seamus is like, “Hey, look, here’s an Irish name.”
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: Right, right.
Alison: There’s an “F” in there somewhere.
Michael: We’ll just choose that one. [laughs]
Kat: Yeah.
Caleb: And I think this comment harkens back to the first one where… I really like the possibility that he can only remember the names that, when he was alive…
Kat and Michael: Mhm.
Caleb: … so these could’ve been names of maybe his last set of students.
Michael: Mhm. And they’re just…
Kat: Yeah, they do sound a little antiquated, don’t they? In their names…
Caleb and Michael: Mhm.
Michael: So perhaps he’s just using them as placeholders because he doesn’t actually know his students’ names anymore. And people did point out that he does take role at the beginning of his class, as all Hogwarts teachers apparently do. But if we are going with the theory that Binns can’t remember anything – other than perhaps what he teaches strictly – then I suppose it would work, that he wouldn’t be able to remember, or care to remember, their names.
Kat: At least the first letter is right.
Michael: Yeah, yeah, he’s…
Alison: Maybe the students have just learned what they call him by now. [laughs]
Kat and Michael: Yeah.
Caleb: Yeah, I was thinking what if he always calls the roll by a wrong name…
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: … and just the first day of class everyone gets their token fake name.
[Alison and Kat laugh]
Michael: Well, it does certainly work out very well for the plot, doesn’t it, whenever they do need to get away from class and Binns’s class is the easiest one to skive off of.
Caleb: Yeah.
Alison: Right.
Kat: That’s true.
Michael: But I wanted to make sure and shout out to all of the rest of you who left amazing comments. There was actually a lot of thoughtful input on this particular Question of the Week from Casey L., DisKid, Elise Roberts, fayehazle, FeatherSickle7662, GinnyWeasley002, Hufflepug, IGotTransfiguredintoaRhubharb…
[Kat laughs]
Michael: … LeslieLovegood, Mama Slytherin, SheFlooLikeAMadman, SnidgetPheonix, SpinnersEnd, and suprememugwump. You all had a lot of really great things to say about Professor Binns and ghosts in general. If you would like to join in on that discussion, it’s never too late just because we’ve read out the answers to the Podcast Question of the Week. Make sure and check out the main Alohomora! site and contribute your own thoughts.
Kat: And I wanted to say that a lot of people came up to me at LeakyCon and were complimenting our listeners on their amazing usernames.
[Alison laughs]
Kat: So just know that everybody else notices how great they are, too.
Caleb: We certainly have the best across the… I’m going to say the Internet because…
Kat: Oh, yeah.
Alison: It’s great, it’s great.
Caleb: Fantastic.
Michael: I think… because I saw quite a few new people this week on the site – welcome, by the way – but I think that with all the wonderful usernames we already have, that just pushes everybody to make …
[Alison laughs]
Michael: … even more creative ones when they stop by.
Kat: Exactly.
Alison: Just a forum shout-out, there’s actually a… there’s a conversation going on where people are explaining their usernames. So some people should go on there…
Kat: Nice!
[Caleb laughs]
Alison: … and explain why they chose their usernames. Because I’d be very interested to find that out.
[Caleb laughs]
Kat: Where is that one? I need to find that. Is that in the Great Hall?
Alison: I think it’s in the Great Hall. It’s been a while since I’ve looked at that one, but… it’s somewhere in there. Why mine is AlliWood is on there if anyone is interested, but… [laughs]
Kat: And I guess with that we should jump into this week’s chapter.
[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18 intro begins]
[Sound of a door being revealed]
Voice: Chapter 18.
[Sound of a door unlocking]
Voice: “Dumbledore’s Army.”
[Whispers of Expelliarmus!]
[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 18 intro ends]
Kat: This is about almost halfway through the book, I’d say like three or two-fifths through… whatever. Anyway, so the last chapter left us off with Umbridge almost catching Sirius in the Gryffindor common room fire. And of course Hermione then comes to realize that she is probably most likely reading Harry’s mail, and that’s how she knew where Sirius would be that night. Based off the fact that Hedwig showed up in the last chapter in History of Magic with her feathers all ruffled, and in this chapter – oh God, I’m losing myself – the last chapter was the number… Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four, which of course banned all organizations and the like. In this chapter Gryffindor Quidditch practice resumes. And amidst piles and piles of homework, Dobby helps Harry find a meeting place for the freshly named Dumbledore’s Army. So, the first thing I wanted to bring up here is there was a discussion with Sirius in the last chapter about Dumbledore’s Army. And it’s brought up again in this chapter and it’s really focused on Hermione here. She’s thinking about Sirius’s reaction to Dumbledore’s Army and is it a good idea? She thought it was a good idea, but now that Sirius thinks it’s a good idea she’s not really sure. And I’m wondering if you guys think that her reaction is warranted and would Sirius ever promote something that might actually put Harry in real danger?
Michael: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Alison: That’s what I would say. She definitely has a point.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: Guys, what makes you say that so confidently? We have no evidence of that in this series.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Oh.
Michael: Absolutely. I think the one mistake Hermione made was mentioning it to Harry.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Michael: I think she should have kept that to herself or talk to Ron about it but not Harry. Because I am sure Ron could have talked her out of it anyway. But I do think her concerns are very valid, absolutely.
Kat: How would you guys feel about it if you were, I guess, in their situation? If you were part of that group?
Alison: Oh, she definitely has reasons. I mean, the last time they talked to Sirius, what did he say? “You are less like James than I thought.” So maybe Sirius… if I was Hermione, I’d be thinking, “He’s trying to push him to be more like James…”
Michael: Mhm.
Alison: In some way.
Michael: Well, yeah. The last time they talked, Sirius was like, “I’ll just come pop by the village and we’ll just have a…”
[Alison laughs]
Michael: … “nice little hangout. We’ll go to Honeyduke’s, it’ll be fun.” [laughs] And they’re literally like, “Hey! No! Lucius Malfoy saw you on the platform, kind of dangerous.” And he’s like, “Oh, you guys are no fun.”
[Alison laughs]
Michael: And then… [laughs] yeah, I think with that in mind… because I think that’s exactly what Hermione is thinking about when she has this anxiety. But again, at the same time I think the biggest issue, and why I think it’s bad that she mentioned it to Harry, is because she put him through a lot to get him to commit to this.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: She’s basicially put him on show. And I know she didn’t mean to, but this is another one of those Hermione moments where she’s brilliant but stupid. She’s kind of not really examining the social aspect of this and perhaps… Harry’s mental stability. To go back on such a big decision, even if it’s just a little bit, is not wise considering Harry’s current emotional state.
Kat: Do you think she…? You mentioned a little bit the whole Sirius showing up. Do you think she’s worried about him at all? That if they move forward with this, that he might actually do something and show up?
Caleb: Yeah. I think that’s like… if I was in Hermione’s place, that’s something to be internally wary of, and that’s why I agree with Michael that she should have kept it to herself. She should have used this as an opportunity to check herself… and not going too far and also being like, “I got to make sure Harry doesn’t take it too far. But I can’t say anything now because we’re just starting this, we’re all in, we can’t have these doubts right now.”
Alison: I don’t necessarily think Sirius would do anything to directly put Harry in danger because I think he understands that enough. But I think he indirectly puts Harry in danger a lot…
Caleb: Mhm.
Alison: … just because he thinks he can catch up or keep up with it all.
Michael: Well, I was just going to say… we had mentioned previously that when Sirius talks to them about forming the DA, he very enthusiastically says, “How about using the Shrieking Shack?” And they’re like, “No, we can’t.” And then he gets upset because… Harry feels he’s upset because he wants to be involved in the planning. He wants to have some part in this because he doesn’t get to be a part of the Order of the Phoenix really, other than sitting quietly. And so, now here’s another way for him to perhaps live vicariously.
Kat: Mmm…
Michael: So again, I think there’s definitely the chance that Sirius could get involved. I think it’s very wise of Hermione to be wary. I just think she should have been a little more careful about how she phrased it to Harry, if talking to him about it at all.
Alison: Oh, do you think Sirius would have shown up if they had decided to use the Shrieking Shack? Do you think he brought that up…
Kat: Oh, boy!
Alison: … in the hope that they would and he could get there?
Michael: [laughs] I’d say that’s possible.
Kat: It’s a possibility. Yeah, I’d say so.
Alison: Well, good thing they didn’t do that then.
[Caleb, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Kat: Yeah, he’s not exactly a rational thinker, that Sirius Black.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: No. [laughs]
Kat: Speaking of rational thoughts… I’m just kidding…
[Michael laughs]
Kat: The next thing I wanted to discuss here – not even really discuss, just kind of point out – is the fact that in this chapter Harry kind of realizes finally that the things that he is feeling through Voldemort isn’t necessarily… I think Ron says, “You’re reading You-Know-Who’s mind.” And Harry’s like, “No, it’s kind of more like his mood.” And I remember that this bit was the first bit of evidence that was called upon when the whole Harry-is-a-Horcrux theory came to be in the next book, and I thought it was just nice to point it out. And obviously it’s getting stronger now that Voldemort has his body back and all of that. How crappy would that be? I don’t know.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: To feel somebody else’s emotions? Especially if they’re completely different than you? I don’t know. No thanks.
Michael: No, this section is really interesting to look back on retroactively knowing what we know now.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: Because Harry is pretty much exactly describing how a Horcrux operates and he doesn’t even realize what he’s talking about. Because it’s funny to think that when we first read it, it was super vague and it was like, what’s even going on here? Why is this happening the way it is? And Harry’s… looking back on it now knowing what we know, Harry’s essentially laid it all out, almost to a tee.
Kat: So maybe she had more of Deathly Hallows planned out at this point then we think.
Caleb: Yeah, I think she at least had to have the overall Horcrux story planned out.
Alison: Yeah.
Kat: Yeah, yeah. Probably not the name of the person whose tent they borrowed, though.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: Well, because we know, too… I’m trying to think of the specific example and I can’t, but I know back when we were… and before I was even on the show when you guys were examining Sorcerer’s Stone through Goblet, but maybe more with Sorcerer through Prisoner, there were a few things about… Horcrux stuff that seems slightly inconsistent with what she’s developed. I guess the big one would be… I think it’s in Goblet when Harry has the dream where he’s riding the owl. And we were all like, why is he riding the owl? How does that work? Shouldn’t he be seeing it through Nagini or Voldemort, et cetera, et cetera.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: And that was an anomaly that we were like, this doesn’t quite work with how she structured Horcruxes. But I think here that that’s how a Horcrux works as… I would say definitely based on how Harry describes it, has definitely been fully fleshed-out by now.
Kat: Yeah, I agree. So moving on to the bulk of the chapter here, Harry is staying up late in the common room trying to get homework done and he drifts off to sleep and oh, guess who shows up? His favorite house-elf, Dobby.
Alison: Yay!
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Yay, I know. I was super happy that he’s back here because I love Dobby, a special place. But anyway, Dobby expresses that he really wishes that he could help Harry because Harry freed him and Dobby is so happy now with his 95 hats on his head…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Kat: Which… that makes me so happy thinking about that, I love it. And Harry says, “You know what, actually you can help me. I need a place where 28 people can practice Defense Against the Dark Arts.” And of course Dobby knows immediately where he should go. He tells him about the room, the Come-and-Go Room or the Room of Requirement. And he mentions that he has hidden butterbeer bottles in there before because of poor, drunk little Winky…
[Michael laughs]
Kat: … and that all the house-elfs know about it because that’s where he heard about it from. So first question: How did they know about it and what exactly do they use it for? Do they have little mixers in there to get to know each other?
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Kat: What are they doing in there?
Michael: Hmm… gosh, that’s a tough one because the house-elves… other than the instance of Winky’s butterbeer, you wouldn’t think house-elves really have anything to hide.
Kat: Right, any secrets. Right, exactly. That’s why I’d like to think it’s something fun.
[Alison and Michael laughs]
Kat: But do house-elves have fun?
Alison: Maybe they find cleaning supplies and silverware in there when they need extra… [laughs]
Michael: Oh, there you go.
Kat: But that makes the question that… I think I talked about this, or we talked about this actually at Leaky where somebody said Filch supposedly cleans the castle.
Michael: Mhm.
Kat: So he would be the one finding cleaning supplies. I think it’s even mentioned in here…
Alison: Oh yeah.
Kat: … that Filch finds cleaning supplies. Yeah but… so, I don’t know. It’s just a mystery to me. I guess house-elves are… if we equate them to the slaves…
Michael: Mhm.
Kat: … which is what they’ve been parallel to many times, they know all the secrets of the place that they live, right?
Michael: Mmm.
Alison: That makes sense.
Michael: Well, and I guess the only other canon thing I can think of is that house-elf magic supersedes wizard magic in a lot of ways. Their magic is very different from wizard magic, and they can break rules, including Apparating in places they shouldn’t be allowed to Apparate, like Hogwarts. So I guess in theory… I mean, I even thought in my head for a moment, if house-elves… you know how the Room of Requirement is not always accessible to everybody, but maybe the thought that the Room of Requirement is just a room to the house-elves, like maybe they see it all the time, and it’s not something that’s barred off from them. I don’t think that would work with what we know of it, but who knows? Maybe there’s something about their magic that can get around the room’s enchantments.
Caleb: And they probably don’t have a big reason for being up there that often as it is, right? Even if they know about the room, since they are workers of the school, it’s not like they get to just leisurely stroll around.
[Kat and Michael laugh]
Alison: Right.
Caleb: The students never see them anyways, right? So…
Michael: Mhm.
Kat: Right.
Caleb: Maybe for birthdays they get to chill in it.
[Alison laughs]
Kat: Yeah, there you go.
Michael: Maybe because they’re so determined. Because their greatest – most house-elves, sans Dobby, is that – wish, want, or need is to clean everything. Maybe the room shows itself to them because it’s like “Well, you have to clean me, too…”
[Alison laughs]
Michael: “… because I’m one of the rooms.” [laughs] So…
Alison: But then that begs the question, what version of the room do they see? Do they see that big-ass room with all the stuff hidden in it?
Caleb: Hmm. Yeah.
Alison: Because that is one hell of a room to clean.
[Caleb and Michael laugh]
Alison: Oh, gosh.
Michael: Maybe that’s why all of the things are in such nice aisles…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Kat: Maybe. Maybe.
Michael: … in that room.
Kat: I guess that’s kind of a good transition to my next question, which is how exactly does the Room of Requirement work? Okay, not necessarily the magic behind bringing the room and what you need, whatever. But in this chapter, Harry mentions the old Foe-Glass, which he says he was pretty sure was sitting in fake Moody’s office the year before. So I guess that kind of got me thinking about when somebody walks by the room, and – say, in this case – they’re looking for a place to fight, a place to practise, and then certain things show up. Are those things already in the room? Or are they kind of conjured out of whatever by the room? Because you know that room that has all the hidden things in it?
Michael: Yeah.
Kat: Maybe it can only draw from that room. And that’s…
Michael: Oh.
Kat: … how it – what’s the word I’m looking for – populates, or supplies what the user, or the seeker, needs?
Michael: So rather than perhaps the implied idea that we get from the books that these objects are just popping up out of nowhere…
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: … that the room is actually pulling from the other version of the room.
Kat: Yeah, or maybe that’s… Not necessarily, because I guess it’s under the assumption that that is a room of things that have been hidden over the years, maybe that is the master room.
Michael: Hmm.
Alison: Ooh.
Kat: I mean, I don’t know. I’m just throwing it out there, I guess. Discuss how it works. [laughs]
Caleb: Yeah, I think that makes sense because when Harry finds the diadem later, it’s obviously not just the diadem. There’s a ton of other stuff. So I think something like this is probably likely.
Alison: That could also explain why… I’ve always wondered why, in the seventh one, when they walk into the room – and Neville and everyone has been living in there – why they had hammocks instead of regular beds. So maybe the room didn’t have real beds, so it supplied the closest thing, which would be hammocks, which you could conceivably bring into that room better than a mattress.
Michael: Well, and isn’t it mentioned… I’m just looking at the page here, it’s mentioned that the Foe-Glass that they use is cracked.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: It’s not a fresh, brand-spanking new Foe-Glass, it could even be the Foe-Glass that was left over from Moody. So in that way, yeah, I suppose it would imply that it… But in a way, to me, that’s breaking the rules of the… That would be the room, in a way, breaking its own rules, because that room’s express purpose is to hide things, so if somebody came into a different variant of the room… If we’re going by that logic, then couldn’t Snape have – in Book 6 – stepped into a different version of the room, and then said, “Give me my Potions book,” and it would have popped up right in front of him?
Kat: No, because he would have had to… No, I don’t think so because I think he would have had to go into the room thinking about something that… Hmm, I don’t know.
Alison: Maybe it has to do with when you go hide something in the room… Because if I remember correctly, when Harry goes to hide the Potions book, he’s thinking, “I need a place to hide my book,” not just store my book, or something like that, so maybe it…
Kat: Mhm.
Alison: … recognizes if an object is trying to actually be hidden, instead of just put somewhere.
Kat: Stored. Right.
Michael: But, see, then that’s confusing to me, because then why would it go into that variant of the room if we’re saying that the room also pulls from that pool of stuff to utilize in other rooms?
Kat: But it doesn’t necessarily… For all we know, the Half-Blood Prince’s book is sitting… Wait, where is the Half-Blood Prince’s book right now?
Michael: It’s in a cupboard in…
Caleb: In storage…
Kat: It’s in a cupboard, right.
Caleb: Yeah.
Kat: Right.
Michael: Not in the Room of Requirement, right now?
Caleb and Kat: Right.
Kat: Okay. That confused me, so…
Michael: I think that… Hopefully the Room of Requirement is something that will get explained on Pottermore a little more. I don’t want it all to be given away, because it’s kind of fun the way it is, and that’s a tough one, because if you get into that too much, you can run into a lot of inconsistent rules of how it works.
Kat: But I think that’s kind of the joy and the magic about that room…
Michael: Mhm.
Kat: … is that maybe there are no rules. I don’t know.
Michael: Yeah.
Kat: I just thought the mention of the Foe-Glass was really telling and very interesting.
Michael: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, I think…
Caleb: Maybe there are keepers, like creatures that keep the objects and just shuffle them around…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Caleb: … and there’s a whole other layer.
Alison: There [are] house-elves in there.
Caleb: I think this is just because I finished reading a book where there’s epic fantasy and there’s…
[Kat laughs]
Caleb: … different layers of a world, so maybe I’m just thinking too hard here. But that would be cool.
Michael: Not to jump too far ahead and get too into the analysis of that, but when… correct me if I’m wrong because, as much as I’ve read the series, I haven’t read Deathly Hallows as much as the others… because they ask for food, because they’re hungry, the room can’t produce food because of Gamp’s Law, correct?
Alison: Yes.
Michael: So it gives them the passage to the Hog’s Head…
Alison: Yes.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: … because it can’t actually give them food. So by that logic, the room at least follows Gamp’s Law. So we know that, to some extent, it does have rules placed upon it.
Kat: Right. Plus, I guess, if you go with the it can only pull from what’s in the room, there’s probably no food ever hidden in that room.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Mhm.
Alison: … or if it is, it goes bad.
Michael: Yeah.
Kat: Right. And then the ghosts eat it, right?
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: I’ll be very interested to hear what the listeners think about this. I think this is a good topic.
Michael: Mhm.
Lat: Good discussion. Okay, the last thing I wanted to bring up here is, once they finally get into their first DA lesson, Harry is like, “All right, so we’re going to start off really simple here, and we are going to do Expelliarmus,” and – who was it – was it Zacharias Smith?
Alison: Zacharias Smith.
Kat: Of course it was. He’s like, “What?” He’s like, “C’mon. Oh, please. This isn’t going to help us.”
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: And Harry is like, “Umm, excuse me. Back off. It saved my life, fool. Okay?”
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: So they start with the Expelliarmus, and people… shoddy, shoddy spellwork, really bad spellwork. And I thought it was funny that all of the reactions that were happening to the bad spells were like… There were books flying off the shelves – which I guess is legitimate since it’s the Disarming Spell – but Cho caught Marietta’s sleeve on fire.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: How is that a valid reaction? I mean, okay, sure, she was pronouncing it incorrectly, but still.
Caleb: Harry, this is your first sign.
[Everyone laughs]
Caleb: Run away now, while you can.
Kat: Right. I just thought that all the different reactions to this were pretty funny. And Ali, didn’t you have something you wanted to bring up about this?
Alison: Yeah, I was just going to say I think it’s so interesting that Harry mentions that Expelliarmus saved his life, when the reason it saved his life was not because he disarmed Voldemort, but because of the twin cores.
Kat: Mhm.
Alison: So honestly the spell almost didn’t help him at all…
Michael: Mmm.
Michael: Yeah.
Caleb: Good point.
Michael: Yeah. That’s they reason I’ve pretty much almost always had a problem with Harry championing Expelliarmus, and why I completely agree with Lupin later on in the series when he’s like, “Hey, stop using that spell, Voldemort’s going to figure you out.” And, oddly enough, Harry seems to understand because Dumbledore explains to him essentially how the twin cores work as best he can.
Alison and Kat: Mhm.
Michael: So Harry knows that that’s what’s going on, but he just seems to favor Expelliarmus even though it’s not… I mean, in theory, if he cast any combative spell at Voldemort, it would have the same effect, right?
Alison: Yeah, actually.
Kat: Yeah, I would say so.
Michael: I mean, his choice spell could be Tarantallegra or…
Caleb: That was totally the one I was thinking of.
[Everyone laughs]
Kat: That would be amazing.
Michael: And it would still do the same thing. Harry’s a little headstrong about… He’s oddly protective of Expelliarmus.
Caleb: It’s like his child.
[Michael laughs]
Kat: Do you think he grows out of it as he gets older? I would hope so.
Alison: Hopefully. [laughs] Maybe…
Michael: He’s still using it at the Quidditch World Cup.
Kat: Well, as he becomes an Auror and everything,if that’s his go-to spell still? It’s pretty pathetic.
[Michael laughs]
Alison: True.
Caleb: He totally botches his first raid while an Auror, using Expelliarmus, and he gets chastised for it later.
Michael: Obviously, Expelliarmus does seem like a logical spell because – and we’ve talked about this, too, in the past – the possibility that Harry is some kind of champion for non-violence because he actively chooses spells like Expelliarmus. He chooses to disarm before he attacks.
Alison: That’s true.
Michael: And that’s what he’s teaching them, He’s teaching them, actually, a form of wand combat that is actually not aggressive initially. He’s actually trying to disarm the opponent which is really interesting that he takes that approach, considering what he’s told them they’re up against.
Alison: Yeah.
Kat: Mhm.
Michael: Rather than going for the attack, he would rather play it safe and take the weapon away.
Alison: I just had a thought as well. This is kind of Harry learning to be a teacher on the job.
Michael: Mhm.
Alison: Do we think he might just be copying what he first learned? Because the first thing they learned in the Dueling Club in the second book is this spell. So maybe he’s just… This is how he’s seen it done, so this is how he’s trying to model how he teaches them.
Michael: That actually kind of leads into what I’m thinking of for the Question of the Week.
[Alison laughs]
Kat: Well, that’s a perfect transition because that’s the end of the chapter.
Michael: So with that perfect segue into the Podcast Question of the Week, thank you to Ali. Thank you very much, Ali, for inspiring…
Alison: You’re welcome.
Michael: … part of this question. The question I’m going to ask is in relation to Harry teaching the DA. And the question is, Daniel Radcliffe stated that for the production of Order of the Phoenix, he had input into Harry’s wardrobe for the Dumbledore’s Army scenes. He cited that David Thewlis’s costumes in Prisoner – specifically the sweaters he wore – were inspiration. With this in mind, as well as how Harry is elected leader by the members of the DA, where does Harry draw inspiration for his teaching styles from? What makes him qualified to instruct other students in defensive magic? We would love to hear your thoughts on this. If you have some answers for us, head over to the Alohomora! main site and check out the Podcast Question of the Week post.
Caleb: And we want to take a moment to thank Ali for joining us again on Alohomora! Thanks for stopping by.
Alison: Any time! Thanks for having me on again. I love it.
Kat: And if any of you listeners out there want to be a guest on the show just like Ali, to find out how you can do that head over to the “Be on the Show” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. You don’t need any sort of fancy equipment, and even just a pair of Apple headphones with the little microphone on them will do you good. So head over, check it out, send in your audition, and you could be on an upcoming episode of Alohomora!
Michael: And in the meantime if you would like to get in touch with us here at Alohomora! just like Dumbledore’s Army, we are very easy to get in contact with. We don’t have any enchanted Galleons, but what we do have is a Twitter. You can tweet us at @AlohomoraMN. You can check out our Facebook, facebook.com/openthedumbledore. Our Tumblr, mnalohomorapodcast. You can give us a call at 206-GO-ALBUS, the proper number being 206-462-5287. You can subscribe and leave us a review on iTunes – we always love to hear your thoughts on the show. Follow us on Snapchat at mn_alohomora. And of course we have our audioBoom. Make sure [to] leave us a message directly on alohomora.mugglenet.com and it could be played here on the show. It’s free, and all you need is a microphone. We just ask that you please keep your message under 60 seconds to make sure it has a chance to get on the show.
Kat: And of course we have the Alohomora! store, which we are adding new things to all the time. We just added four new designs, and we actually have more on the way. Actually, I wanted to ask all the listeners out there: They’re going to be offering posters in the next month, so I want to know what posters you guys would want, if posters are something you’d be interested in. And of course, go check it out. There [are] sales going on all the time, so be sure to follow us on Facebook and Twitter so you are aware of those sales. And of course, the ringtones as well. They are free and available at alohomora.mugglenet.com.
Caleb: Also make sure to check out our smartphone app, which is available seemingly worldwide, and prices will vary. It includes things like transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and much more, so definitely check that out. You can find out more information on our website. And that is going to do it for this week’s episode of Alohomora!
[Show music begins]
Caleb: I’m Caleb Graves.
Michael: I’m Michael Harle.
Kat: And I’m Kat Miller. Thank you for listening to Episode 96 of Alohomora!
Caleb: Open the Dumbledore! Dumbledore’s Army! Raa!
[Alison, Kat, and Michael laugh]
Michael: Well, if Umbridge doesn’t know, now she knows.
[Alison and Kat laugh]
Kat: Right.
[Michael laughs]
[Show music continues]
