Transcript – Episode 81
[Show music begins]
Michael Harle: This is Episode 81 of Alohomora! for April 26, 2014.
[Show music continues]
Michael Harle: Hello, listeners. Welcome back to the show where we are rereading the Harry Potter series and you get to reread with friends, and your friends this week are Michael Harle.
Laura Reilly: I’m Laura Reilly.
Noah Fried: And I’m Noah Fried. And I’d like to intro our special guest: Jeanna Marie. She is from Hogwarts Radio. Hi, Jeanna!
Laura: And we’ve had her before and we’re very happy to have her back.
Noah: That too.
[Everyone laughs]
Jeanna Marie: I love coming back to Alohomora! I love discussion, so any time I come back here I’m like, “Yay! I get to discuss things! Theories!”
[Laura laughs]
Noah: Are you excited to open the Dumbledore?
Jeanna: Always.
Michael: Jeanna, what’s your opinion on Order of the Phoenix?
Jeanna: I really wanted to do a chapter or so from here because I forget my opinion of Order of the Phoenix because I haven’t reread it enough.
[Michael laughs]
Laura: I have to agree with that a lot, that I have opinions, but at the same time I reread Order of the Phoenix the least, and I am most excited to reread this just by my initial negative feelings with it because I feel like I’m going to change my opinion this time around.
Jeanna: Agreed, agreed.
Noah: It is a veritable, vast body of text, isn’t it?
Jeanna: Yes.
Laura: Because I’ve never read them so in-depthly this close back-to-back before the show, so now I feel like I’ll approach it with a new eye.
Jeanna: I’ve probably read [Books] 5 and 6 the most, leading up to the grand wait of waiting for Book 7, so I feel like I have but I can’t… it’s been a while.
Noah: Yeah, for me too. I think maybe not since I was seventeen did I do a full read of Book 5.
Michael: It is funny opening it again because I haven’t read it for a while. I do constantly reread the series since I still read them to my brother, but from [Book] 5 onward, those were the ones that we read the least since we started before they were all finished, and the first time I opened it again this time with the reread, I realized what… just looking at the pages, I got the same feeling of, “Oh, look at all the words on the page…”
[Jeanna and Laura laugh]
Michael: … and I actually pulled out some of the earlier books to compare, and I realized that in the US editions, the margins are actually smaller in Order of the Phoenix to fit more words on the page.
Noah: Yeah.
Laura: Oh, wow.
Michael: [laughs] So I guess that’s why it feels so daunting.
Laura: So yes, it is time to dive into those words. [laughs] But before we do that, we want to remind you guys to read Chapter 4, which is “Number Twelve, Grimmauld Place.”
Michael: But [laughs] before we get to Chapter 4, we’re going to look at the comments that you the listeners left for Chapter 3, “The Advance Guard.” Wow, listeners, you came out in full force this week. Currently, as we are recording this, there are over 160 comments on the main page just about this episode…
Noah: 160?
Michael: … so that was very impressive, and I promise you, I give you my personal seal of guarantee, I read every single one of them and it was very hard to pick the top three, but I picked the ones that I thought were going to have the best conversation for the show today.
Noah: That’s well done. Good job.
Michael: I hope so. The first one is a little more personal because, as Noah knows, I really want to talk about Lupin, and…
Noah: So Michael, are you saying that what you want to talk about supersedes 163 comments on last week’s episode?
Michael: [laughs] I would say that if this comment hadn’t been so well written.
Noah: Mmm.
Michael: It is an excellent comment. It actually worded something great that I had been trying to word myself for the series, and from Padfoot42, it was… this comment actually came from the forums, despite all the comments that ended up on the main site, and it is in regards to Harry and Lupin, since Lupin returns for the first time since Prisoner in this book, and Padfoot42 said,
“When the Advance Guard finally shows up, I always liked the connection that is instantly formed between Lupin and Harry. It’s moments like these that give me the impression that Lupin is almost closer to Harry than some of the other Marauders (namely Sirius). I truly believe that Lupin has a better understanding of who Harry is as a result of him being his teacher for a year, and that Lupin fully accepts that Harry is NOT James and likes him more for being an individual. [While] I think Sirius is definitely important to Harry as a father figure, sometimes he does almost seem disappointed with the differences between James and Harry. He wants his best friend back through Harry at times. Lupin and Harry always seem to have a certain rapport going instantly, whereas I feel that it takes just a little longer for Harry to get this connection with Sirius, because Sirius wants it to be just like it was with James.”
So this…
Laura: That’s really interesting.
Jeanna: Perfect.
Michael: Yeah. Go ahead.
Laura I didn’t even almost realize… I mean, I did, but that Lupin wasn’t present for all of Goblet of Fire until I read that line and I was like, “Oh my God, Lupin. I miss you. Where have you been?”
[Michael laughs]
Laura: I, as a reader, feel more comfortable because it’s Harry that’s going through all this stuff, and all these people barge through the door and you’re like, “Oh, Lupin is here. It’s going to be okay.”
Michael: Mhm.
Noah: But that’s fascinating. That just got me thinking about something. Maybe… wasn’t Lupin friendly with Lily?
Jeanna: Yes.
Michael: Yeah, I mean…
Laura: Hmm, that was more a fan thing.
Michael: They probably knew each other, but it’s up for debate about how well they knew each other.
Jeanna: Is that more movie canon?
Laura: Yeah, that’s movie canon that they had this strong relationship.
Jeanna: Ah.
Noah: Well, I just wonder about that, because if Sirius can only connect with Harry on his James side, maybe perhaps Lupin was connecting with his Lily side, or the balance…
Michael: Well, they certainly went off of… they definitely went off that track for the third movie, like Jeanna and Laura were saying…
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: … but I like the comment because – like Laura was saying – unlike Laura, I went through Goblet of Fire like, “Why isn’t Lupin a part of this? Write to him! Just write him a letter or something. I just want to know that he’s still around.” And so when he came back, I was thrilled when I first read the books. That’s what’s so important about Lupin being the head of the Advance Guard when they show up again, which I was surprised at in the movie that they didn’t have Lupin in the Advance Guard. I thought that was a bizarre change. But I do like the mention by Padfoot42 about Lupin’s relation to Harry versus Sirius just because that’s the theme we get to explore a lot in this book is how Sirius begins to treat Harry when he gets to spend more time with him.
Noah: Mhm.
Michael: And personally, I’ve always favored Lupin over Sirius. I like Sirius, but this comment hit upon exactly why I like Lupin more than Sirius… which I don’t think he gets a lot of credit for in the series, even after the fact of what happens in Deathly Hallows and his big moment at the end when he shows up. So I liked that that comment brought that point out.
Jeanna: It would be interesting to do a research paper or some in-depth research on – based off this comment, honestly – the relationship between Lupin and Harry, James… not James and Harry, Sirius and Harry, and then Peter and Harry, as well…
Michael: Mmm.
Jeanna: … which there isn’t too much there, but there is some give and take in Deathly Hallows.
Michael: Oh, yeah.
Jeanna: So that would be an interesting study, in my opinion.
Michael: Definitely. Yeah.
Jeanna: Just because we were hitting on some Marauders there.
Michael: Yeah. There’s a debt to be repaid in that relationship, so there is definitely something big there. So that was just a little section for some Lupin appreciation time because I needed it. [laughs] I think we all need a little bit of Lupin appreciation time sometimes. But onto the next comment. This one comes from – I believe, I think it’s pronounced – Vaughnerich. Vaughnerich? I’m going to go with Vaughnerich. You tell me, Vaughn, how it’s pronounced in the comments.
Noah: Is he or she from Durmstrang?
Michael: You mean Vaughnerich?
Noah: Yes.
[Michael laughs]
Noah: You will read the entire comment as if it’s coming from Vaughnerich.
Michael: No, this isn’t Craig Ferguson. I’m not going to read it in a European accent.
[Michael and Noah laugh]
Noah: Okay.
Michael: But the topic that Vaughnerich brought up was also elaborated on by Rose Lumos and – great username – Snatch The Snitch on the main site. It is in response to Kingsley specifically, and more broadly about race and its role in Harry Potter. Vaughnerich said,
“When I was younger, I was surprised to see certain characters not being white in the ‘Potter’ movies, like Angelina Johnson, Lee Jordan, and Dean Thomas, but I think there are small clues within the text I likely missed/ignored when I was just starting to read the series. There’s also likely some effect from being white, or being in a white-majority community, like I’m not expecting or looking to see that other characters aren’t white, so I just subconsciously assume they are. Rowling is also pretty vague about race; she mentions it casually and vaguely through clues, which could be in order to not make race a big deal… Is Cho Chang ever explicitly stated as being of Asian descent? It also could come off as, ‘all the main characters are white, so it doesn’t really matter if I say they are white or not.’ In the movies, Kingsley has an African kind of robe and hat which seemed kind of racist to me, in that I pictured him as being dressed like other magical folk in the UK, and it seemed like a stereotypical costume decision to reinforce how black he was. If it was done because Rowling said so, I guess it’s just canon. I just think in the books Harry would’ve remarked more about his robes if they were atypical.”
Noah: Yes.
Laura: I’ve mentioned this, I think, when we did the Goblet of Fire rewatch in the chat, perhaps…
Michael: Mhm.
Laura: … that during the Yule Ball, Cho Chang comes out in a kimono-type outfit, and the Patil twins are in saris…
Michael: Saris, yeah.
Laura: … and I was like, “That’s awesome.” That’s super awesome if they’re truly embracing their culture, but if it’s just the movie being like, “Get it? Because they’re Indian and they’re Chinese.” I don’t know.
[Michael laughs]
Laura: But I will say I believe there’s something with Dean Thomas specifically between the UK and the US editions. I don’t remember which it is.
Michael: There is. You’re correct. It’s…
Laura: Yeah, one of them says, when they first introduce him, “Dean Thomas, a black boy,” or something like that.
Noah: I remember that.
Jeanna: Weird!
Michael: Yup. The US version points out he’s black and the UK version does not.
Jeanna: I didn’t know that. I have the British version of Philosopher’s Stone and I guess I haven’t really read that version. I never noticed that.
Laura and Michael: Hmm.
Jeanna: I always pictured Kingsley, of all of them, looking the most Muggle when it comes to costume and how he dressed because he also worked for the actual British Ministry.
Michael: Yeah.
Jeanna: I always pictured him in a suit and a tie and looking official as in the Muggle world.
Michael: Mhm. Yeah. I pictured the same exact thing. I can’t even possibly remember who did the drawing, but there was a great drawing I saw a long time ago, before the fifth movie came out, of Kingsley that didn’t look at all like he ended up in the films. He was a lot younger looking in the drawing, a lot more stockier, and more fit. And he was wearing, like you said, Jeanna, more like a suit and I was like, “That’s what I see! That’s exactly what I envision.”
Jeanna: I pictured him like Volde-Armani.
Michael: [laughs] He’s got style. “Dumbledore’s got style.” Now Kingsley’s got style.
[Laura laughs]
Noah: Michael, could you do the line?
Michael: Oh, the line?
Noah: The line.
Michael: Okay. But the funny thing about that line is that it’s not Kingsley who says it in the book. It’s Phineas Nigellus.
Noah: Really?
Michael: Yeah. But how does he say it?
[Noah laughs]
Michael: “You may not like it, Minister, but you have to admit… Dumbledore’s got style.”
[Michael and Noah laugh]
Michael: I also didn’t… I never pictured him with an accent or anything like that. I know George Harris just has that accent naturally. He’s actually in… I was surprised to see he was in Raiders of the Lost Ark; he just pops up and…
Jeanna: I know, I was just going to say that!
[Michael laughs]
Jeanna: I love him. He isn’t necessarily what I pictured as Kingsley but now he is because he’s just so awesome.
Noah: What was he wearing in that, out of curiosity?
Jeanna: He was in the very beginning, I think. Or no…
Michael: No, no, no, he’s in the boat at the end.
Noah: Now I just want to dress him up in different costumes.
Michael: [laughs] He helps Indiana Jones out. But yeah, no, I like this comment just because, like Laura just said, I’m inclined to think that the films do go more for what’s kind of stereotypical because that’s what Hollywood does… they are wont to do.
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: So yeah, I definitely remember having that same reaction when I saw Kingsley and I was like, “Oh. That’s different… that is quite African.” Because I think there is a time in Goblet of Fire when we do see African wizards and she does point them out at the Quidditch World Cup so I thought that was a really great observation on part of Vaughnerich…
Noah: So we’re deciding that it’s not racist?
Michael: I don’t think it is in the book. I think it’s more just…
Laura: A film thing.
Michael: … I think in the film it is. Because it’s…
Jeanna: I think it’s just lazy film-ness.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I’d agree with that. Because I know the other topic about Kingsley that came up last week was why he bows and a lot of people were actually suggesting that maybe it is part of his culture to bow, whereas some people were saying it’s part of the wizarding world’s old-fashioned nature to bow, which I would be more inclined to agree with because we hear of a lot of wizards who do that.
Noah: Yes.
Laura: Also, there’s a lot of people that just bow when they first meet Harry in the Leaky Cauldron in Philosopher’s Stone. There’s people that are going to that length and a lot of people, when they meet him for the first time, still react that way.
Michael: Mhm. Yeah.
Noah: I just thought that it almost reinforced him as this figure worth bowing for, like a prophet or something, but…
Michael: Yeah. I think that’s, too, part of…
Laura: And we’ll get to something that’s related to that in the chapter discussion this week.
Michael: Mhm. But our last comment for last week’s recap was from Skgai on the forums.
[Michael and Noah laugh]
Michael: It is about feminism in the Harry Potter series. This is in response to the discussion of Tonks last week but Skgai said,
“J.K. Rowling has offered up something unique with her wizarding world. Since skill in using magic comes only from brains, not brawn, her world would naturally be unencumbered by the supposed superiority of man over woman. So in ‘Harry Potter’ we get to see a world as if this issue, that has plagued mankind since inception, never existed. For example, there was a female British Minister for Magic at least as early as 1798 in Artemisia Lufkin. And, of course, we get Hermione, a woman who even Draco Malfoy never uses the ‘you’re just a girl’ card on. Under this structure the reader can identify with these women and see how, if uninhibited by outside bigotry, that there is truly no limit to their capabilities. Hopefully, that might give the reader strength to overcome sexism in real life. It creates an idea that people should strive to.”
And as an added note, Skgai put,
“So, Noah, if there is no sexism between the humans of this story, I think we can safely read the Hedwig/Harry dynamic as animal and human owner.”
Because there was a big discussion about that as well from you last week.
Noah: Is the Harry Potter universe really a… is it really… there’s no sexism in Harry Potter?
Michael: Well, that’s… this is why I found the comment interesting is because… and I brought this up on the show before, but last year at LeakyCon I attended a panel about females in fan fiction and it was pretty heavily focussed on Harry Potter. And the way that they got into the conversation, as I mentioned before, was they used… oh, what’s that theory in movies that… with how many… if the female characters are…
Laura: It’s the Swedish task.
Michael: Yeah. I can’t believe I forgot the name. I say it all the time.
Laura: I’ll Google it while you’re speaking.
Michael: Thank you. [laughs] But…
Noah: Google.
Michael: … they used that test to check whether the Harry Potter series is does actually have good female role models, strong female characters, which is a definition that varies depending on who you talk to.
Noah: And correct me if I’m wrong, but that…
Laura: I’m not sure, it’s the Bechdel Test.
Michael: Thank you. It’s the Bechdel Test. Yes, that’s how you say it.
Noah: Bechdel.
Michael: Thank you. Thank you.
Noah: How much do women talk about other guys or talk about guys? The guy law.
Michael: Yeah, it’s related to how much they talk about other things other than guys. And of course, the argument with Harry Potter is that we see everything through Harry’s lens and Harry, as a pretty typical teenage boy, doesn’t have much interest in female affairs unless it’s to do with personal romance.
Noah: Yes.
Michael: Or Hermione. But even then he’s not very interested.
[Michael and Noah laugh]
Michael: So…
Noah: That’s a whole nother topic.
Michael: Yeah. So I liked this comment just because I think it really discusses how the world building is. It creates a place that can allow for great female characters to exist that we don’t get to see them.
Noah: And Bellatrix.
Michael: And Bellatrix. [laughs] So…
Jeanna: She’s a good female character. She teaches you things.
Noah: What?
Michael: I think she’s a fine female villain.
Jeanna: She’s not a shining example of how to behave, but she still…
Noah: Jeanna, Bellatrix is terrible.
[Michael laughs]
Jeanna: I know. I know, but…
Noah: Through and through. She killed Sirius.
Laura: There’s a difference between a good character and a good person.
Jeanna: Yes.
Michael: This topic, really, I think came up because the discussion of Tonks and how she’s an unusual female character. Not just at this point in the Harry Potter series, but I think for a lot of children’s literature that we don’t get to see. I think now this kind – a character like Tonks is only recently becoming more typical to see pushed in that literature.
Laura: Well, that… as much as I love Tonks more than many, many, many characters, that whole clumsy trope is being way overused now, especially just in young adult…
Noah: Clumsy is so attractive.
Laura: … books and TV shows because it’s oh, making otherwise not really flawed female characters…
Michael: Clumsy.
Laura: … approachable, but I don’t think that applies to Tonks.
Michael: No, I don’t either. I wouldn’t say that. One…
Noah: But to the…
Michael: Go ahead, Noah.
Noah: Sorry. I was going to throw another stick in there about Bellatrix.
Michael: No, go ahead. Oh, please. Throw in some sticks.
Noah: All right, so there was the… in the last chapter, there was the bit about Tonks folding socks and thinking about how she really appreciated her mother, who could really fold the socks, but she couldn’t quite do it and that being connected to her interest in motherhood, or being a good mother. And that’s… is that Andromeda? Right?
Michael: Yeah.
Laura: Yeah.
Noah: And Andromeda’s sister is Bellatrix, who in many ways can be considered an anti-mother because she killed, she does not protect any child of any kind. So in that way, J.K. Rowling could be positing that you have to be a mother to be a good woman.
Laura: No.
Michael: I wouldn’t…
Jeanna: No.
Michael: I mean, at least – and this just taking the series in context until, literally, until the epilogue – Hermione isn’t a mother until the very end and she’s clearly a good person. McGonagall, we know about, was never a mom.
Laura: I think McGonagall is the perfect example there.
Michael: Yeah.
Jeanna: Both Hermione and McGonagall are protective of people who are not their children. Hermione definitely protects Ron and Harry when they’re out, when it’s just the three of them camping and when it’s just her and Harry, obviously.
Michael: Mhm.
Jeanna: And McGonagall pretty much takes care of an entire house of children and she never had any of her own.
Michael: Mhm. Yeah, I think… I don’t think that would be… I don’t think Bellatrix is a case of “oh, you have to be a mom to be a good character.” I think like you were saying, Jeanna, Bellatrix is a case of a great female villain.
Jeanna: Yes.
Michael: So she’s not a great person. She’s a great character.
Noah: Yes, that’s fair to say.
Michael: So yes, there were so many topics that were covered this week. I just wanted to do a quick shout-out to everybody who made big comments because they were very impressive. AccioPotassium!, Archduke Severus, there was an anonymous guest who said something really good, DolphinPatronus, Elvis Gaunt, thegiantsquid, Hannah, the head girl, Honeydukes Empire – great username – IGotTransfiguredIntoaRhubarb, Nikigryff, PixieDragon137, PuffNProud, quibblequaffle, Snatch The Snitch, and Surprisinglyswishy. You guys had a lot of great topics. If you are interested in checking out what they and all of our other listeners who contributed said this week, please check out the Alohomora! main site where you can also join in the discussion.
Noah: Yeah, and it was really fun to all those comments for me, especially because I said some crazy stuff on the last episode and some people liked it, some people didn’t, and I have some stuff to say about it. When I read in to the series, on some level, it’s true, there is an element of play, but it is true that the way I think about it is, every single book, language itself, it’s not our own. It’s a vehicle or medium that so many people use. It connects with out unconscious, which is perhaps rooted in culture and that’s where we find our identity. So in looking at words and making connections among the words, you can tell… you can find trends and by really analyzing those trends, you get a sense of J.K. Rowling, you get a sense of, perhaps, the time period in which she wrote her book, and it depends on how seriously you take those ideas. I was an English major in college, so I took that very seriously. As I’ve done now 80 of these episodes or I’ve been around the show, my thoughts and ways of approaching the text have hopefully evolved, so I think I’m starting to do better at it.
Michael: Well, I think it’s worth saying, too, that the listeners were very good at engaging you in conversation on the main site this week. Even if they didn’t agree with your points, they came up with some very good, valid responses to you.
Noah: It’s true.
Michael: We thank all of you for doing such a great job in the comments this week. You guys really came out in full force. [laughs] So thank you.
Noah: Yes, and keep it up. So now we’d like to do the responses from the Question of the Week last week. Here was the question: “This chapter sees a variety of wizards, breaking into a Muggle house, in order to essentially steal a very well-known figure. We want to know what you think about these wizards. Why did they sign up to escort Harry? Why did they break in rather than knock on the door? Or greet Harry in a slightly more polite way? Are they there for Lily and James or because of Harry’s status?” So here’s the first comment from blast_ended_firebolt:
“Might the Advance Guard be an established group of two, three, or four wizards that is assigned to do this kind of work as needed? Keep in mind we see Dedalus Diggle and Hestia Jones do [the] same for the Dursleys. When Lupin mentions volunteers, maybe he means someone like Tonks, who volunteered to impress her mentor, Moody (or possibly Lupin?), and Kingsley, who is into protecting people (Prime Minister in HBP). I think they broke in rather than knock and then have to wait out front, possibly drawing attention, until Harry answered the door. Once they were in, Moody is taking point and we can’t expect him to be nice when he sees Harry since he’s a surly guy. Finally, I think the people [who] aren’t there because it’s part of their job as members of the OotP are doing this for Harry. I think the one person there who might be doing this for Lily/James is Lupin. We know he was close to James and, like Sirius, I think he sees James in Harry and wants to protect him.”
Michael: Wow.
[Noah and Michael laugh]
Michael: That was person by person. That was very impressive.
Noah: Yeah. So that last part contradicts what we were saying earlier about Lupin because I disagree then because I do think that Lupin is going there for Harry, not quite for James.
Michael: Yeah.
Laura: Yeah, I don’t think the two are necessarily opposites, one or the other.
Noah: No, it’s probably a mixture or a…
Laura: It’s not like he’s going for James or for Harry and screw James. It’s he’s going for Harry, who is James’s son.
Noah: Maybe a better way to think about it is how does this love for Harry manifest in both Lupin and Sirius? It’s in different ways with different tones.
Michael: Mhm.
Laura: I think that’s pretty much what Jeanna was talking about earlier and I think that’s a big question. And I think it’s something I’d be more interested in what Jeanna said if someone would write a longer response in comparing those relationships.
Michael: Mhm, yeah.
Jeanna: Also, in terms of this person’s point, it’s possible that Lupin wanted to go for Sirius as well since Sirius couldn’t go.
Michael: Yeah, that’s definitely, since Sirius is the one…
Noah: Ah.
Michael: We know Sirius is being quite forceful about things, very moody when he doesn’t get his way. So perhaps, yeah, it was a way, maybe even a way to placate him to make sure he wouldn’t try and tag along.
Laura: And I mean, these are also some of the most skilled wizards…
Michael: Mhm.
Laura: … just regardless…
Noah: Yeah, you’ve got the power with Kingsley and Moody…
Laura: Lupin.
Noah: … and even Tonks is well known.
Laura: Yeah.
Michael: When it boils down…
Laura: The other people in the Order are busy with other stuff. There’s Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, there’s McGonagall, there’s Snape. Obviously, Snape’s not going to come.
[Laura and Michael laugh]
Laura: These people are most suited for it. I think it’s one too many perhaps, but…
Michael: Well, and I think maybe the thing we do forget because of the way the movie stages it versus the book is – and the book frankly points it out – that Lupin needs to be there because he’s the only person that Harry fully recognizes and has a relationship with. Because he even hears Moody’s voice and he’s like, [as Harry] “Last time I talked to Moody, he wasn’t Moody and he tried to kill me. So maybe not the person I should be walking out the door with.” [laughs]
Laura: Right, exactly. Who is he to trust?
Michael: Mhm.
Jeanna: I also, when I first read this, I remember thinking purposely there were too many people because so many people were like, “I’ll get Harry. I’ll get him. I’ll totally go with you. I want to meet Harry.”
Michael: Uh-huh.
Jeanna: It was very much like, “We really don’t need this many, but you’re all so excited. Just go. Let’s all just go.”
[Michael laughs]
Noah: And I’m also fascinated by the beginning of this first comment, which is saying that maybe this group was pre-ordained or selected by Dumbledore, Dedalus Diggle, and Hestia Jones. Someone suggested in one of these comments that Diggle was there because he had the law. He had that… he was also a lawyer so he potentially could protect Harry if there was some sort of legal drama. I think that’s pretty fascinating. IGotTransfiguredintoa Rhubarb says,
“Lupin would go because of James, Tonks because of Lupin, Kingsley to meet Harry and because of skill, Doge because of Dumbledore, to meet Harry and to act like a lawyer if needed…”
Oh, okay. So Doge is the lawyer.
“… Diggle to meet Harry again as he’s in awe of him and the others I think because [of] skill and to meet Harry.”
Michael: Hmm.
Noah: So that’s a good one. And I should probably just move on to the next comment from ArchdukeSeverus:
“They had to break in I think because Harry is locked in his room so if they knocked on the house door, I don’t think Harry would have had the energy to get up, pick the lock on his door, and go downstairs to answer it.”
I don’t know why I said the comment like that, but let me continue to do so.
[Laura and Michael laugh]
Noah: [continues]
“Also he would probably assume that it was someone for the Dursleys. They could have sent Harry a heads up via owl post, but even then there is a chance that it would be intercepted by the Ministry. Tonks had no link to Lily and James, as she wasn’t in the first order. So I think Tonks is there as security (she is an Auror) and possibly because she is a good flyer. She is the one [whom] Harry is following so she mustn’t go off track. Moody is the leader of the group and probably the best Order member to be in this position.”
Well, I mean, best is kind of subjective, ArchdukeSeverus. Anyway,
“Also he is an Auror so [he] supplies extra security.”
Oh, I get that.
“Remus is there to comfort Harry and gain his trust. He is the familiar face in the crowd to Harry and the one [who] is able to gain his trust. The others I’m not sure about as we don’t know them that well. The only thing I could think of was a possible link between Hestia Jones and Gwenog Jones. Gwenog being the captain of the Holyhead Harpies and Hestia maybe being a relative so also good at flying.”
Whoa, mind blown!
Laura: I actually thought the same thing with Jones just because I’m good with names.
Michael: Geez.
Laura: I don’t know why I immediately recognize stuff like that. And I was like, “Oh, I wonder if they’re related. Probably…”
Noah: That’s really good.
Laura: Probably not because Jones is, literally, the cliche for the common name, but could be.
Michael: I’ve been wondering… and we’ll get to it later, but I’ve been wondering the same thing with Zacharias Smith and Hepzibah Smith.
Noah: There’s much more to Zacharias Smith than anybody knows.
[Jeanna and Michael laugh]
Noah: Anyway, nice comment from ArchdukeSeverus. Comment any time, my friend.
Laura: Yes. All right, but now that the Advance Guard has arrived with Harry, I think it’s time for us to discuss Chapter 4.
[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 4 intro begins]
[Harry, Hermione, and Ron arguing]
Michael: Chapter 4, “Number 12, Grimmauld Place.”
[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 4 intro ends]
Laura: Okay, so the Advance Guard arrives with Harry and they… we find out it’s the Order of the Phoenix. We still don’t really know what that is, but… it’s 12 Grimmauld Place, but hold up, 12 ain’t there. There’s a door that emerges out of nowhere, along with it walls and windows. The movie does a really good job with this, in my opinion, but the Muggles don’t have any notice. They don’t notice at all that the walls are moving. So the first thing I really want to dive in to is: How does this magic work, do you think? I know there’s not going to be an answer to this because the answer is just “magic.”
[Michael laughs]
Laura: But I was just trying to think of it technically. Was the house built along with the others and then later on concealed by wizards? Or was it squeezed into an already existing place, or just… how? How does this work?
Michael: No, I think that’s a fair question, because I’ve pondered that since the first appearance of the Leaky Cauldron.
Laura: Right.
Michael: Which apparently just appears in the middle of London and takes up what I would assume is quite a bit of room along with the giant shopping alley behind it. And yeah, it’s that weird thing about certain Unplottable things that are under special charms that somehow they take up this… because you guys have talked about this before on the show, before I was on. Isn’t it that concept of the wizard space?
Laura: Yeah.
Noah: Wizard space – it’s another dimension.
Michael: Yeah. Because it…
Jeanna: Ooh, I never thought of that, actually.
Noah: Perhaps it’s the same place where Vanished objects go.
Michael: [laughs] Yeah.
Laura: Well, even just thinking of the physical consequences of shifting the ground and having something move, if a Muggle was to step out, is their yard moved over by three feet or is it just totally not there? Can they see them if they were standing on the doorstep? Not inside, but on the doorstep. Do the people, like Harry and whatnot, become invisible if they’re on the staircase leading to the house? Do they just disappear?
Jeanna: I think there is some type of barrier, I guess, kind of a dimensional barrier. I never thought of it as dimensions, but yeah, I guess.
Laura: I mean, the only thing I can liken it to possibly is when in Deathly Hallows, how they have… they’re concealing the tents and there is this invisible barrier.
Jeanna: It’s obvious there’s something.
Laura: They’re not all wearing invisibility cloaks and whatnot, but there is a barrier, and no one can see them. And they have the best wizards out there making this.
Noah: I will add… and Michael, let me know what you think, but I didn’t like this in the fifth movie, the way it was done. Which was… it was this mechanical-sounding movement of the buildings, and you just sort of see Harry looking at it, being astounded that the house is moving. But it felt too mechanical for me. I sort of wanted something to magically pop up into existence.
Michael: I…
Laura: Oh, see, I like the mechanical-ness of it.
Michael: Yeah.
Laura: Because even they say that… you hear even with the unlocking, there’s all the gears turning and whatnot.
Noah: Oh, that’s in the book?
Michael: Mhm.
Laura: I mean, that’s just the lock.
Michael: Yeah.
Laura: Because it says the lock doesn’t have a keyhole, but you hear all the gears inside it. But I like the mechanical nature of it, in the same way I liked how they did the brick thing, where all the bricks moved together rather than just being like, “Poof, it’s there!”
Michael: That’s what I was going to say because I think that’s the style that the movies… that’s one of the few things that the movies actually kept consistent in their style, when buildings or things do appear. It’s that kind of, as you were describing, Noah, mechanical nature of how they ended up doing it in the films. Because I think the way that Rowling describes it, things kind of just… it’s kind of like a fade effect…
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: … where things slowly appear in the space and slowly shift things out, versus the movie which does physically show things moving, things shifting. I think in the movies it worked, but I do think it’s a different effect from what Rowling describes. It’s definitely more cinematic in the films.
Jeanna: I always thought of it like how the houses are in Chicago, in the city. They’re so close together that you have a very small path in between two. And so I always imagined it like instead of that walkway in between, it’s just a door to another home. So I always pictured it as a door is just going to appear, kind of like the Leaky Cauldron sign in the first movie, where you turn a certain way and you think, “Oh! There’s a door!”
Michael: Mhm.
Laura: Yeah… I’m not sure. But regardless, when they walk inside the building it is nasty, and everyone is all whispering so that Mrs. Black, as we come to find out at the end of the chapter, doesn’t wake up. But something that’s really interesting amongst all the grime is as they’re walking up there’s beheaded house-elves mounted on the wall. And this surprised me to a degree just because I’m not really sure necessarily the motivation behind doing this. I don’t know if it’s memorializing and “Oh, look at all our house-elves that have served us throughout the years.”
Noah: House-elves love it. I think the young house-elves get a weird pleasure out of seeing their own families beheaded on the walls.
Laura: Oh yeah, that is definitely the case. But I’m more talking about just the human involvement in this. Are they reaffirming in the same way people mount deer heads and stuff their sub-human status by doing this?
Noah: And what is the process by which the heads are cut off?
Laura: With a knife or a wand.
Michael: Ugh!
Noah: And hopefully they’re dead. I’m assuming they’re dead, right?
Laura: Yeah.
Michael: Can you use the Severing Charm to sever somebody’s head off? That’s not okay.
Laura: This is what I always talk about when wizards have duels. No one’s really creative ever.
[Michael laughs]
Noah: It’s like Edward Stark over here.
Laura: That is not his name.
Noah: That’s not his name?
Laura: Did you say Edward Stark?
Noah: Sorry, Eddard Stark.
Laura: There you go.
[Michael laughs]
Laura: Spoiler.
Noah: George R.R. Martin doesn’t believe in Ws.
[Michael laughs]
Jeanna: Except in Jon Snow.
Noah: Right.
Michael: I think that point is exactly what it is, Laura, as far as why wizarding families would do something like that. I mean, we’re specifically getting the Blacks, who are extremist, I would say…
Noah: I would say that, too.
Michael: … judging by everything else in their house. So yeah, I think in this particular case that’s exactly what it is. That’s what Kreacher’s whole story is all about, how he is treated by other people.
Jeanna: I always thought it was kind of a status thing, like “We’re from old money.”
Michael: Mhm.
Jeanna: “We have old… we’re from this long line of Dark wizards.” And not necessarily Dark wizards, “We’re from this long line of wizards, so we have things like house-elves still, and we’ve had them for generations. Check out our walls.”
Laura: Yeah, it’s very true.
Noah: I mean, I would say they are Dark. They are the Blacks.
Jeanna: Yes.
[Jeanna and Michael laugh]
Laura: Yes, yes they are. So in continuing to talk about the Blacks, the portrait of Mrs. Black… before I get into really my main question with the Kreacher/Mrs. Black relationship, I first want to ask, Mrs. Black is woken up all this time by passerbys, and that’s why they’re all so cautious because she’ll go into a big screaming fit. But prior to people living in this building, so between Regulus and Sirius, did she just stay behind the curtain the whole time sleeping or…
Noah: Yeah, what’s she doing?
Laura: … just not doing anything? Or does she talk to Kreacher or just scream when she feels like it?
[Michael laughs]
Noah: “Kreacher, bring me blood!”
[Michael laughs]
Jeanna: I think she gives him commands and I think Kreacher would come every day and open the curtains, wish her a good morning, and have a little routine with her. Just like how Phineas Nigellus would give commands in his portrait in the Headmaster’s office.
Laura: Mhm.
Jeanna: I think…
Noah: “Kreacher, give me a glass of the brandy.”
[Jeanna and Michael laugh]
Jeanna: Exactly.
Laura: Yeah. Well, that directly segues into my main question, which is, if we were to assume the portrait is giving Kreacher commands still or even if she isn’t, how did the house fall into this dramatic disarray?
[Michael laughs]
Noah: Because Sirius isn’t here.
Laura: Kreacher’s only job is to… we see the standard that house-elves have that they hold themselves to.
Noah: Kreacher’s pretty dirty…
Laura: Their job is to be keeping everything clean and keeping everything orderly and pleasing their master. I’m personally shocked, and this is taking all elfish rights out of it and whatnot…
[Michael laughs]
Laura: If Kreacher is so passionate about serving the Black household, what has he been doing then that it’s this awful?
Michael: I think the book kind of implies… because I’ve had the same question before with rereading this book. But I get the sense from how Kreacher’s portrayed that he’s quite old and he’s gone a little off his rocker…
Laura: Mhm.
Michael: … compared to a house-elf who’s…
Laura: Like Dobby.
Michael: … like Dobby or Winky. Well, not Winky…
[Michael and Noah laugh]
Michael: … but Dobby, yes. Dobby is a good example.
Laura: Winky is out far right now.
Michael: Yeah, yeah exactly.
Noah: Michael, is he off his rocker, or is he emotionally damaged by Sirius?
Michael: I think there’s a lot of things going on with Kreacher. I think part of it…
Laura: Or Regulus, you mean?
Noah: I mean “or Regulus.” Watching Regulus drown in a zombie-infested lake.
Michael: I think it’s a lot of things. I mean, I would just say, too, “The way… just how he’s portrayed early on, it’s suggested that it’s just that he’s old…”
Laura: Yeah.
Michael: “… and he’s got this huge house to clean by himself, and he’s become…” A part that could be considered slightly deranged or slightly traumatized is that he hoards and collects objects…
Laura: Yeah.
Michael: … which is not something…
Laura: Isn’t it senile?
Michael: Yeah.
Jeanna: Yes, I definitely think it’s senility.
Noah: So if you think about it, this turnaround…
Michael: You think it’s…
Noah: This turnaround at the end of the books is more a dementia, in a way.
Laura: No.
Michael: No.
Laura: Don’t you hurt that scene. That’s one… I cry at that part every time.
[Laura and Michael laugh]
Noah: He’s just become even more senile by the end. That’s why he cares.
Jeanna: I think that he definitely is portrayed as senile, and he’s got a couple screws loose because he’s seen some things, and he’s done some things, but also, if he is taking commands from Mrs. Black still, we have to remember that she isn’t exactly Mrs. Black. She’s just…
Laura: A shade.
Jeanna: … a shade of herself, so the things she’s asking him to do probably aren’t “Don’t forget to polish the silverware.” It’s something…
Noah: What does a painting need? More paint?
Jeanna: Exactly. I doubt her as a portrait would think about the upkeep of the house.
Laura: Yeah.
Noah: Well, here’s my question: All right, so there’s got to be some sort of sentience within the painting itself. So when the curtains are closed, does she just have empty space? Like when you’re asleep, but you don’t dream, and she only wakes up when some noise happens?
Jeanna: Yeah.
Noah: Where does she go in those times? Where does that piece of sentience go?
Michael: It’s… I think it’s there… from other portraits, it’s implied that it’s there all the time.
Laura: That’s like when Dumbledore is sleeping in his portrait conveniently for a book.
Michael: Yeah. I think that…
Noah: So her portrait’s doomed to eternal loneliness? Or just to brood?
Michael: All portraits kind of are, but I mean, unless… the other thing, too, is that the portraits can go visit each other, whether they choose to or not is…
Noah: I don’t think she has any friends.
Laura: And the portraits aren’t the people. They’re not. They’re…
Noah: Are you sure?
Laura: Yeah, that was…
Michael: According to… yeah, according to Rowling, they’re not.
Jeanna: Yeah.
Laura: It’s just…
Noah: Is she sure?
[Everyone laughs]
Jeanna: I would hope so.
Laura: She admitted that portraits were the worst mistake she made because she really got herself in a corner there with “Oh…”
Noah: There’s something there.
Laura: “… Dumbledore’s dead, but I already said I’d have talking portraits of the headmasters.” [laughs]
Michael: Well, it’s…
Noah: It’s almost like Desk!Pig, with this sort of half-life existence that’s between life and nothing.
Michael: I think it’s like what Laura was saying about the appearance of Grimmauld Place, and how does that magic even work? And I think what happens in the books… I think Rowling has gotten more tied up with this around the time that Pottermore happened, and she’s kind of being forced to explain things. Is that the magic was really written just as these throwaway little “wow” moments for you as you read to be like, “Oh, magic! Magic…”
Laura: “Talking portraits, how exciting!”
Michael: Or as Goblet of Fire Harry would say, [as Harry] “I love magic!” So it’s just a “wow” factor concept I think is what it is, and then now she’s faced with the…
Laura: And we obnoxious fans were like, “But explanations!”
Michael: Exactly. I think that’s… we’re at that point now.
Laura: Story of the life of a Lost fan.
Michael: Yeah.
Jeanna: At this point she should have expected our demands for explanations.
[Laura and Michael laugh]
Jeanna: I’m sorry.
Michael: Well, yeah, no, the thing to note about the Harry Potter series as a whole is that it’s not like a lot of young adult series we have now. Having worked at a bookstore – it’s funny now – I’ve talked to quite a few authors who came through and visited about… I’ve asked them, “Were you asked by publishers to write extra material?” and they’re like, “Oh, yeah. I have to do supplementary material. I have to do little booklets…”
Noah: Really?
Michael: “… or exclusive online…” And some of them have said that they do believe that it’s probably because of Harry Potter because there is this constant expectation from the fandom of more explanations.
Noah: Yeah, it’s a selling point.
Laura: Because it’s so real to people that they need every detail…
Michael: Mhm. Yup, exactly.
Laura: … to fill in the blanks. But moving back to more the nitty-gritty of the chapter, there’s a super-secret Snape-y meeting happening with the Order of the Phoenix, and Harry is still getting none of the answers that he wants, and but Harry does get to meet up with Ron and Hermione and eventually Fred, George, and Ginny, and I just want to give a quick shout-out to one of my favorite lines in the series. I think Fred says it: “Oh, Harry, we thought we heard your dulcet tones.” [laughs] I love that line.
Noah: Yeah.
Laura: But at this point… so Harry meets up with all of them, and the reader gets to truly meet the all-caps angsty Harry [whom] we know and love.
Noah: Yeah.
Laura: So Harry just essentially explodes on them on every kind of thought that was going through the first three chapters up to this point. Just comes out in really three to four solid pages of all caps.
Noah: If anybody’s interested, there’s a great editorial in “Three Broomsticks” on MuggleNet.com by hpboy13 about capslock Harry and caps Snape and if they were too screamy and if that was a bad thing or a good thing. So go ahead and read that.
Laura: So basically, I mean, I’m not going to go through every single thing Harry shouts at them because he’s been thinking… it’s just a reiteration of everything we’ve heard with his internal dialogue in the first three chapters. So I just want to ask you guys – especially since angsty Harry is the reason many fans don’t like this book – is Harry out of line in this, or is it warranted, this reaction? Is he being fully unfair toward Ron and Hermione when they couldn’t really do anything about it?
Noah: Yeah. He’s been a jerk. Dumbledore told them they couldn’t say anything.
Laura: I…
Noah: And Hedwig pecked their fingers. I was so… my finger was hurting reading that.
[Laura and Michael laugh]
Laura: I’m going to have to get on Harry’s side here.
Noah: What?
Laura: Because even though I don’t… reading, my issue with angsty Harry is more when he’s [at] Hogwarts, and he’s like, “Everybody hates me!” This stuff is very frustrating, and I am fully on his side. I understand the reasons why they couldn’t talk to him and whatnot. I feel bad for him and for all of the reasons that he lays out. He does not… he deserves to be in the loop over anyone. And I still fully don’t really understand why…
Noah: I disagree, Laura. I mean, how could Dumbledore know if Harry was connected to Voldemort and anything Harry knew could go into Voldemort’s mind? That was the fear; that’s why he didn’t know anything.
Jeanna: He knew that it was okay, that he wouldn’t be connected to Voldemort in that house. He knew that that was a safety zone, and trying to get any messages to him would be a terrible idea. No, I agree with Laura that Harry’s anger is warranted in this moment.
Laura: Mhm. He deserves to let it all out.
Jeanna: Yes.
Noah: Even the score, Michael. You’re with me, aren’t you?
Michael: [laughs] I’m… my opinion has evolved since I was 15, and I first read it. I think back then, I fully agreed with Harry. I now…
Noah: Yes?
Michael: Now I’m… I see all the factors that go into it, and I find it hard to take a side because just as Harry is yelling, it feels justified to me; it all feels fair. But at the same time, yes, he is being a jerk to Ron and Hermione because the thing I thought about when you guys were saying, “Well, Ron and Hermione were told not to say anything by Dumbledore,” it’s… by Deathly Hallows, Harry takes that to extremes with everybody around him. He won’t tell anybody except Ron and Hermione what Dumbledore has told him. He takes that almost too seriously, too extreme.
Noah: Yes.
Michael: And it gets a little out of hand because of his… because he also has this little bit of pride going on at the same time with that.
Noah: Yeah. That whole line where he says, “I was the one who went through all that. I did this; I did that. You guys did nothing.” It’s really showing how what that… yeah.
Michael: So yeah, I think Harry has been through a lot, and he has every right to what he’s saying, I think. And the thing is, he feels bad after he does it. So I feel like it’s inevitable that he would say these things. I think he does take it a little too far at some points, but…
Noah: He’s an emotional mess.
Jeanna: That one line Noah just quoted was…
Laura: Was much.
Michael: Yeah.
Jeanna: I agree. That one was much. And they touch on this later, I think, so I may be getting ahead of myself, but he is still grieving and trying to figure out how to grieve over his friend and somewhat competitor and schoolmate [who] just died in front of his eyes that he felt he should be the one who saved him, so he’s probably got some survivor’s guilt going on. He’s confused, he’s lost, and he’s [at] literally the last place he wants to be on earth: the Dursleys’.
Michael: Mhm. Yeah. Well, and I think that’s a great point, Jeanna, because the listeners have been pointing that out a lot. They’ve been saying, “In this case, Harry does have PTSD. He has PTSD, and he’s also been imbued with a bit of anxiety.”
Noah: He did see somebody die.
Michael: Yes!
Laura: And he also just fought off Dementors three days ago.
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: And really, the least that he’s asking for at this point is to just be informed, just some simple things. He doesn’t even… I think Harry would have even possibly been somewhat satisfied to get something.
Laura: That’s what I’m saying. I feel like they could have done something. Just a little… I also don’t understand why the whole Hermione is there. I’ll never understand that.
[Michael and Noah laugh]
Noah: For Ron, of course.
Jeanna: Yeah, I think at this point it’s just “Mom, Dad, things happened at the end of the school year. I’ve got to go. I’ve got to stay in the wizarding world. Okay, bye.” They’re like, “All right, whatever you want, hon!”
Laura: “It was nice knowing you those ten years!”
Jeanna: Yeah, I feel like her parents are – and this is a thing on Rowling – a little too liberal in letting their daughter just do whatever she wants with her summer.
Noah: Would anyone be interested in doing just a read of just the caps and what happens in between? I can do the caps; I won’t scream too loud.
Laura: There’s so much. I don’t think…
Michael: Yeah, there are so many.
Laura: Like I said, there'[re] four solid pages, but…
Noah: “WHO HAD TO GET PAST DRAGONS AND SPHINXES AND EVERY OTHER FOUL THING LAST YEAR? WHO SAW HIM COME BACK? WHO HAD TO ESCAPE FROM HIM? ME.”
Laura: There we go. Yeah.
[Laura and Michael laugh]
Michael: There it is. All caps there.
Noah: It’s much louder in the books. And isn’t Snape the only one who really ever gets into caps seriously?
Laura: No?
Noah: I mean, “recurringly,” I guess, is the word.
Laura: Maybe recurringly perhaps, but yeah.
Noah: And does that not mean that Snape and Harry are intricately connected because they’re very emotional beings?
Jeanna: No.
Noah: Okay.
[Jeanna and Michael laugh]
Noah: Is there some sort of connection there? No. Okay, but.. sorry.
Laura: I think they’re both just moody people. But just one other question, and I believe this probably does have an answer, so I’m not playing devil’s advocate. I’m asking for an answer. If Harry can go to the Burrow at a certain point in Chamber of Secrets and in Goblet of Fire, and the Leaky Couldron in Prisoner at a certain point in the summer, that’s kind of arbitrary, the point at which he no longer has to stay at the Dursleys’. Why can’t he just come see her? They’re, “Oh, we’re getting out of here, and we’re bringing you to the Order.” It’s like, “Why couldn’t you have done that five days ago?” Where is the divide that it’s safe for him to come or something, in the same way it was, “Oh, no, you must stay at the Dursleys, but you can come to the Quidditch World Cup!”
[Noah laughs]
Laura: It’s… I don’t know. It seems arbitrary to me that it’s so important that he must stay there because of the love protection and what not, but then he’s able to go kind of at arbitrary points.
Michael: Yeah! No, I completely agree with that observation because… and we’ve had quite a few listeners who commented on that this past week on that issue. Some of them suggested that the main piece that we know about that protection charm is that Harry has to stay with a blood relative, and he has to consider the place home, which is also something that’s kind of oddly debatable because there’s such a push in the books and the movies that Harry considers Hogwarts home and that…
Jeanna: The Dursleys are the antithesis of home.
Michael: Exactly!
Laura: He considers the Burrow home.
Michael: Yeah! Some people have suggested that maybe… because in almost every book, Harry stays with the Dursleys for at least a month, and maybe that’s possibly the amount of time that Dumbledore feels that Harry needs to… he has a certain amount of time that he feels Harry needs to consider at least the place that he always has to go back to, I guess, as bare minimum. Because I don’t think we’re talking about considering a place home in the poetic sense, like “Home is where the heart is” kind of thing.
[Noah laughs]
Laura: Yeah. Mailing address.
Michael: Yeah.
Laura: But I think – because I think the listeners will point this out to me – specifically in Order of the Phoenix, I understand, I think, the day a little more because it was Tonks who said […], “It took us a long time to fortify the building,” pretty much, to make sure it was totes fine. But that’s really my only response I can give myself for this book specifically and not for the others, but…
Jeanna: Mhm. That’s a good call. I never thought of that.
Laura: Yeah. But before we get to our last point, I just… we do actually find out what the Order is, kind of loosely, that it’s just a secret society against Voldemort, featuring a badass group of all my favorite characters, so it’s kind of awesome. [laughs]
[Michael laughs]
Laura: But the kids are kept out of the meetings, despite their best efforts. We see Fred and George. Their business is becoming more and more legit and they’ve got this money from Harry, coming off of the last book. We see them using the Extendable Ears, which are brilliant. And as an aside, we also find out that Bill and Fleur are a thing.
Michael: Yeah. It just gets…
Laura: At a much better time in the series than in the film series. That particular scene – and we all know what I’m talking about – is my least favorite scene in the whole series.
[Michael laughs]
Noah: I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Laura: When they go to pick him up before the Seven Potters scene and they’re like, “Oh, hey. So, we’ve got three minutes to go through everything that turned out to be important that we left out of the film series right now.”
[Michael laughs]
Noah: “Oh, Tonks is pregnant!”
Laura: Yeah.
[Noah laughs]
Laura: “Hey, we have a romance and we got married and now we’re pregnant. And they have a romance and now they’re married.”
[Laura and Noah laugh]
Laura: It’s just… it’s awful, but…
Michael: Yeah, it’s pretty…
Laura: And we also find out that the Ministry’s targeting Harry as… kind of a tabloid loser. They’re not giving him front page material, which is what Harry had been looking for, or that Voldemort front page anything. They’re just kind of using him as the go-to punchline in other news. He’s just the running joke, as Hermione says it and it’s kind of annoying, but, you know, the Dementor story is not even considered… it would be their biggest payday, but it’s being kept under wraps. For now.
Michael: I love that this entire conversation, when – as Hermione and Ron are giving Harry more details – the whole conversation everybody’s on pins and needles because they’re worried that Harry’s going to scream again. But it’s not their fault, really, at this point, because everything they’re telling Harry would be great cause for him to start screaming.
Laura: Yeah, they kind of just… everything’s so casual. It’s like, “So, yeah, you’re just the punchline of the wizarding world.”
[Michael laughs]
Laura: “That’s all right. Do you want dinner? Are you hungry?
[Michael laughs]
Laura: It’s also just the way you phrase that also just made me draw the connection between the Mrs. Black portrait being such a big deal in this chapter and they’re on pins and needles, not wanting him to explode.
Michael: Yeah, and I thought about that, too, actually, and that’s great to bring up because it’s a great parallel, because you freak out so much at Mrs. Black and everybody freaks out about her, but there’s a way to shut Mrs. Black up. [laughs] There’s no way to stop Harry. He’s full-force. So…
Laura: Yeah.
[Michael laughs]
Noah: Michael, did you think there was anything symbolic of it being Lupin and Sirius together, being able to close the curtains at the end? Does Lupin somehow help Sirius to solve his psychological issues with his mother?
Laura: Umm…
Michael: [laughs] You went…
Jeanna: I don’t think that ever happens.
Michael: You went quite deep.
Laura: I think that’s an interesting claim.
Noah: Doesn’t Lupin ever comfort Sirius?
Michael: I think that’s why… I think that’s part of the reason why Lupin’s there, kind of like we had discussed earlier, about why Lupin – Jeanna brought up – why Lupin goes on the Advance Guard. I do think Lupin is also there to keep an eye on Sirius. Poor Lupin has always been put in the role where he’s supposed to take care of people or watch…
Noah: Yeah. When he really needs to be taken care of.
Michael: Yeah.
Jeanna: He’s always the teacher.
Michael: Yup. So I think that’s the role he was put in in this situation. I don’t know if it’s that’s deep. I like that analysis, though. I think – from what we know historically – I think James is more that person for Sirius because Sirius goes and lives with James pretty early on in his teenage years. So there’s no… I think Lupin and him are just kind of… I think that relationship between Lupin and Sirius is starting to be rebuilt at this point. So…
Laura: Right. And this is really the last big info dump that we get is in regards to Percy and this is certainly not out of nowhere. This has been built up since, really, the beginning, but mostly it started in Prisoner and then kind of got more snowballed in Goblet of Fire, but this is Percy betrayal in full force. We find out he’s been pretty much… He’s disowned his family and his father won’t speak to him. He slammed the door in his mother’s face.
Noah: Mhm.
Laura: He’s just all around not-nice-word [laughs] and it’s just sad because I thought it was interesting because I feel like – it’s not something I can personally relate to – but I feel like it’s such a realistic situation that happens in life with strife between children and their parents when they get older and expectations the parents have and resentment children may have because of the parents and this kind of – at this age specifically – mutual disowning. I don’t know. I think it’s an interesting tough theme to have included as a subplot, but I think it’s an important one.
Michael: Mhm. Yeah, I think as much slack as Percy gets for doing what he does – like you said, Laura – it’s pretty realistic in terms of what happens just in the regular old world.
Laura: Mhm.
Michael: I’ll happily admit there have been plenty of times where my parents definitely saw things coming before I did and knew better than me, but I didn’t take their advice because I was – I don’t know – thinking that I was just in the right, or thinking that I had a certain responsibility to somebody else, and that is natural. I think that’s a perfectly natural thing and I think that’s why – yet another reason why – Order of the Phoenix is kind of a shocker for our generation when we read it the first time because it is dealing with pretty grown up themes.
Laura and Noah: Yeah.
Michael: So…
Laura: Especially when it’s such a big theme throughout the series, but I wouldn’t… I don’t know if I’ve seen it necessarily in this book, but it’s the theme of loyalty. I don’t know. I feel like it might be a Deathly Hallows theme stronger, but the whole “Dumbledore’s man through and through” – that type of thing – and just loyalty and family has always been a big thing. The Weasleys… We see the Weasleys as being – for all the financial strife they have and whatnot – are really the perfect family, as far as their bond with each other…
Michael: Mhm.
Laura: … and Harry, who’s yearning for that family is right now looking at Percy just toss it all away.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, it’s…
Laura: And it’s sad.
Michael: Yeah, but like you said, it’s real and Rowling… I don’t think she ever shies away from that, but more so in Order than what we had seen before, maybe the exception being the very end of Goblet.
Jeanna: I think it’s very interesting that it shows up in Order of the Phoenix at the start of the war because in so many instances in real life – war situations and political situations in general – kids often have different political views than their parents. I have different political views than my parents…
Laura: Mhm. Me too.
Jeanna: … but when you’re in a war-type situation… and back when a lot of boys had to go off to war, they wanted to fight on different sides than their parents wanted them to, and it generally shows a house divided because of war; and I think that’s something that is very interesting.
Michael: Mhm.
Laura: Yeah.
Michael: Well, and the important thing to keep in mind too as far as the series – the future of the series – is this is not the last time we will see this, not with the Weasleys, but with the Dumbledores.
Laura: Mhm.
Noah: Yeah.
Michael: So…
Laura: Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that.
Michael: Yeah, and it’s interesting to see because, like I said, Percy really just, by the fandom, is so put upon for this particular action that he takes. Dumbledore gets kind of muddy. I know people are still pretty angry with him, but actually that portion of Dumbledore’s character isn’t the part that people tend to get angriest about, it’s more about how he treats Harry…
Laura: Mhm.
Michael: … than anything else, but there is… Dumbledore makes a very similar decision to Percy around the same age.
Laura: And I just actually thought of one more comparison. Kind of going on the other end, more on the positive end I guess you could say.
Michael: Hmm.
Laura: Sirius, with his own family. He disowned his family and his family disowned him…
Michael: Mhm.
Laura: … because of a difference in ideology.
Michael: Yeah.
Laura: It’s an ideology that we, as readers, tend to agree with more than… Dumbledore – like you said – is murky, but all of us are unanimously against like, “Yeah, Percy, screw you!” But…
[Everyone laughs]
Laura: And Sirius we’d be rallying against him if we were in that situation with him like, “Yeah, screw your parents!”
[Laura and Michael laugh]
Laura: And then Dumbledore is an example where it’s like “Uh, Dumbledore, what are you doing?” [laughs]
Michael: Yeah, I think this is the point where the books start to portray every… she’s built up all these characters in our eyes and now she’s going to tear them down. This is the beginning of tearing people down…
Laura: Yeah.
Michael: … who we’ve kind of put on pedestals and kind of fawned over as characters, and that’s very – I think at that time – that was pretty unusual for a series like this.
Laura: Mhm.
Michael: So…
Laura: Definitely. And just to end on a slightly lighter note, just because I see Noah included this in here and I thought of it… I pondered it reading it trying to mimic it in my head.
Michael: Make the noise? [laughs]
Laura: Ginny makes this sound of an angry cat and I have no idea how that is supposed to sound in the context.
[Laura and Michael laugh]
Noah: Michael, you’re the sound man.
[Michael attempts to make a sound like an angry cat]
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: It’s funny because that line has always stood out to me because it’s a bizarre description. The only thing I could think of…
Noah: And they just go on. Nobody references it.
Laura: Yes!
Michael: Yeah, nobody is like, “What’s going on, Ginny?”
Laura: Is it like [attempts to make a sound like an angry cat]?
[Laura and Michael laugh]
Michael: I always thought of it as, I figured she might have done like a “hiss” or a “khaa,” kind of like that.
Laura: That’s logically how I thought of it.
Jeanna: I always thought of a “hiss,” yeah.
Michael: That’s the only way I could reason it. And speaking of Ginny…
Noah: What causes the “hiss?” What happens before that? Is she like…
Laura: It’s just in regards to rehashing everything Percy said to her parents.
Michael: Yeah.
Laura: And vice versa.
Michael: Before we end it, it’s worth just noting, Ginny certainly has become a more developed character, hasn’t she?
Noah: Yes. She had one more line.
[Michael laughs]
Laura: This book is really where she… [laughs]
Noah: Guys, it’s really one more line. Let’s not get ahead of ourselves.
Laura: … starts to finally get a little more personality.
Michael: Let’s not go crazy, but yes. I remember the first time I read this and being like, “Oh, wow! Hi Ginny. You have things to say and are also kind of cool.”
Noah: I’m pretty sure she dates five guys in this book. Am I right?
Jeanna: She dates a few, but I think also maybe Rowling decided to bring her character out more in this situation because she’s at home, she feels comfortable in her own house, in her own clothes, she’s got Fred and George behind her, and she doesn’t have the judge-y eyes of the school kids. It’s just different when you’re home.
Laura: She’s also even if she might still have feelings for Harry she does have that, “Well, I had two boyfriends, so you know, screw you.”
Noah: To be honest, she was never really part of the main friend group for me. I’m sorry.
Laura: I agree, but I like her in this role and it is important knowing where they end up to introduce some sort of relationship slightly early on before they actually start dating.
Noah: It feels kind of forced.
Jeanna: Plus, and this also may be getting ahead of myself, but in Book 6 at the very end. I don’t know, is this a spoiler?
Noah: We’re in Book 5, Jeanna.
[Laura and Michael laugh]
Jeanna: I know, but I was going to talk about something. I don’t know if this is like a spoiler thing.
Michael: No, no, no.
Laura: There is no such thing as a spoiler with Harry Potter.
Michael: There are no spoilers here.
Jeanna: Oh, okay. She says to Harry, “I never gave up hope with you. Hermione told me -” I’m paraphrasing “- take it easy and just let things happen naturally, but I never really gave up hope.” I bet that this month is when that conversation happened where Hermione was like, “You know what? Do your thing this year, check out some other boys, see how you like it.”
Noah: So Michael Corner was just letting nature take its course?
Jeanna: Yeah.
Noah: Roger Davies?
Jeanna: Yup.
Laura: Roger Davies had nothing to do with her, don’t you dare.
[Michael laughs]
Jeanna: I was going to say, I don’t think she was with Roger Davies.
Noah: Filch.
Michael: Noah is pairing her with every male Quidditch player at Hogwarts.
Laura: Good lord.
Noah: Cormac McLaggen.
Laura: No, you know what? Ginny’s the only one who dates a realistic amount of people before she marries someone.
Jeanna: That is true.
Noah: The rest of them are very, very pure. It’s true.
Michael: I don’t mean to be, this is maybe coming back to what we talked about earlier in the previous comments about female characters, but I always still feel like Ginny was, the thing is, some of the characters implied, especially the rest of the Weasleys imply, that she’s always been like this, just not around Harry. I don’t know, though, as a reader, personally, it always bothered me that she’s developed so late and so scantly.
Noah: Yeah.
Jeanna: Yeah, I agree.
Michael: It’s always been a problem for me. I know a lot of people cite more problems with Movie Ginny, but I have problems with Book Ginny in that respect. I do think she’s just developed right when she needs to be. Which I think is uncharacteristic of Rowling’s writing style where she does such a good job of building everybody up before they need to be important.
Noah: All she needs, Mike, all she needs for Harry is the red hair. Classic Oedipal complex.
Michael: Oh yeah, we can get in to that another time.
Laura: Oh.
Michael: I saw that. Oh my God, yeah.
[Everyone laughs]
Noah: Yeah, that’s for later.
[Michael laughs]
Laura: I think this is a good time.
Noah: Wait!
Laura: What?
Noah: No, it’s not. One more sound and then I’m done. So there’s a moment when Fred and George apparate in and Hermione says, “A-A-R-G-H,” in all caps. You know what that is?
Michael and Noah: Argh!
Noah: Hermione says, “‘Argh.'” [laughs]
Michael: I think that’s…
Noah: She’s a pirate! [laughs]
[Michael laughs]
Laura: Okay.
Michael: [laughs] I don’t think so. Hermione’s considering a secondary career as a pirate?
Laura:It’s like, Argh!
[Michael laughs]
Noah: If J.K. Rowling knew what she was doing as a writer, she would know the proper use would just be, aagh. A-A-G-H. “Argh”, makes it awkward and piratey. That is my take as a writer.
Laura: See when…
Jeanna: Maybe it’s a British thing?
Laura: … I do that, I just go, “‘Argh!'” There’s an “R” sound in there.
Michael: That’s what I do. Maybe… A-A-G-H always reminds me of the Peanuts because that’s what Charlie Brown always screams.
Noah: Argh!
Michael: Argh! [laughs]
Noah: I got a rock.
Michael: [laughs] “What’s the question, Noah?”
[Laura and Michael laugh]
Noah: Okay.
Laura: That concludes this chapter for this week.
Noah: So this Question of the Week is about Extendable Ears, which are these fleshy, stringy-like objects, which we know Fred and George have been using to spy on the Order and hear what’s been going on. We learn that Ron and Hermione have been doing the same with them before Harry gets there. Harry, of course, will not have the pleasure to do that so that his angst can continue. However, but on Extendable Ears, how do these work? And yes, this is going to be one of those questions to you guys about taking an object and wanting to know what is the magic behind them. Were they once normal ears before that have been magiced to extend? Are they… what are they made out of? Anything that you could give us about Extendable Ears, we would love to hear about…
Laura: Are you insinuating that Fred and George are harvesting organs?
Noah: Yes.
Laura: [laughs] I might have to shoot that theory down but I’m interested in hearing otherwise.
[Michael laughs]
Noah: I mean, where do they get the ears?
Laura: I don’t think they’re ears.
Noah: Well, that’s exactly the question. What are they?
[Michael laughs]
Noah: Listeners, let us know in the comments and we’ll read them on the next episode.
Laura: And feel free to throw in any connections because I always think it’s interesting with the whole Extendable Ears and George eventually losing an ear, if there’s any…
Noah: Ooh, snaps! [makes a snapping sound]
Laura: I always find that interesting. I like to think that events and some point weaving Extendable Ears together into the shape of an ear or text something. Well, I guess he doesn’t have an impenetrable ear, I take it back. Anyway…
Noah: Kind of morbid. Now I’m really sad.
Laura: It’s okay.
Noah: I’m over it!
Laura: You can talk as much as you’d like with me about George’s future, I have all of the ideas.
[Michael laughs]
Laura: That is the only direction in my fan fiction brain. The only direction it goes.
Noah: You should write that story.
Laura: Anyway, so thank you so much, Jeanna, for coming again today. We absolutely love having you. You’re awesome.
Jeanna: I love being on the show, so thank you guys. I had fun.
Michael: So listeners, if you would like to be on the show just like Jeanna and join the ranks of the Order of the Phoenix…
Noah: Oh!
Michael: Oh, oh, oh. All you have to do is head over to the alohomora.mugglenet.com website and click on the “Be on the Show” link to check out all those rules and regulations. If you have a set of headphones and a good microphone and good recording program, you are set. Nothing too fancy. But yes, please join us because we would love to talk to you about Harry Potter.
Noah: And if you’d like to get in contact with the Alohomora! hosts, on Twitter at @AlohomoraMN, on facebook.com/openthedumbledore, and our Tumblr, which is mnalohomorapodcast.tumblr.com. You can also reach us by phone at 206-GO-ALBUS – that’s 206-462-5287. Don’t forget to subscribe to us on iTunes and leave us a review. We love reading those. You can also follow us on Snapchat – mn_alohomora. You can also leave us Audioboos, where you can give us little messages that we can play on the show. Those are always fun.
Laura: Also be sure to check out our Alohomora! store, which has T-shirts, tote bags, sweatshirts – it’s almost flip flop season; you know they’re my favorite – water bottles, travel mugs, and more coming soon. We’ve got a bunch of ideas in the works but as of now, we have over 80 products to choose from. Ringtones are free and available on the website, so hook yourself up.
Noah: And much more.
Michael: [laughs] Also, we have an app for while you’re walking around Muggle London looking for Grimmauld Place. It’s available seemingly worldwide, as we always say. Prices vary depending on your location. Our app usually includes things like transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and more. I believe I’m in charge of the app material this week. I’ll probably talk about Lupin some more. [laughs] Let’s do some more Lupin appreciation on the app.
Noah: I think we should have a little Lupin appreciation moment on every show.
Michael: On every day, Lupin appreciation?
Noah: Yes.
Michael: But yes, make sure you check that out on your phone.
[Show music begins]
Noah: All right, everyone. Thanks for listening to the show. I’m Noah Fried.
Michael: I’m Michael Harle.
Laura: And I’m Laura Reilly. Thank you for listening to Episode 81 of Alohomora!
Noah: Open the Dumbledore!
[Show music continues]
Laura: So yes, it’s time to dive into those words. [laughs]
[Prolonged silence]
Noah: Do it, Laura.
Laura: Hmm?
Noah: Go for it.
[Michael and Noah laugh]
Laura: Oh, it was indented so I didn’t see the first line. I was waiting for a chapter discussion. All right, nailed it. Anyway…
[Jeanna and Noah laugh]
Michael: That was a really… I wished that happened, the transition, because it was so smooth. [laughs]
Noah: It still can be, with the editing.
Laura: I’m going to just [unintelligible].
[Train in the background]
Noah: Whoa, I thought… I just heard something. Do you guys hear…
Laura: Yeah. It sounded like…
Jeanna: It’s the “L.”
Laura: Immediately like a wind.
Jeanna: [laughs] It’s the “L.”
Noah: It sounded like… what?
Michael: [laughs] That was perfect. That was like the beginning of one of my chapter titles.
Noah: Yes! It was!
Laura: That’s exactly what it sounded like.
Noah: Oh, that’s so weird.
Jeanna: Any time you think you hear something funny, it’s probably just the “L” going by.
[Michael laughs]
Noah: No, but that was perfect. That was literally… and the same sound. Can we somehow use that?
Laura: It was timed exactly.
Noah: I’m really scared right now, guys.
Jeanna: I pay the guy.
[Michael laughs]
Laura: Okay.
Noah: Eric.
Michael: Every time the train goes by, Eric always says, “Okay, hold on. There’s a train going by.” And then there’s…
Jeanna: I know. I don’t want to interrupt, so I haven’t said anything, but…
Michael: Oh no, it’s fine.
Jeanna: And I figured you guys are probably used to it with him, so…
Michael: I am. I always say it’s his train of thought going by.
[Jeanna, Michael, and Laura laugh]
