Transcript – Episode 74

[Show music begins]

Michael Harle: This is Episode 74 of Alohomora! for March 15, 2014.

[Show music continues]

Michael: Hello, listeners. Welcome to this latest episode of Alohomora! I’m Michael Harle.

Rosie Morris: I’m Rosie Morris.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric Scull. And joining us today is our guest: Kevin Bloomfield. Hello, Kevin.

Kevin Bloomfield: Hello.

Eric: How are you today?

Kevin: I’m doing quite well. And yourself?

Eric: Not too bad considering it is the Ides of March when we bring this episode out. Oooooh.

[Rosie laughs]

Eric: Spooky Ides of March. Kevin, please tell our listening audience a little bit about yourself. What Hogwarts are you in? And all of that stuff.

Kevin: Okay. My name is Kevin. I am an Slytherin, a third year at the Ohio State University studying Greek, Latin, and History. And it’s my intention to pursue a PhD in Medieval History, and Harry Potter is one of the Holy Trinity of fandoms I follow – podcasts – this, Star Wars, and Game of Thrones. So it’s… being here is phenomenal.

Eric: Wow.

Rosie: Guys, he’s out-ancienting me!

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Michael: The funny thing was, all those things were… that was so interesting, but the thing that really caught me the most was that he’s a Slytherin because we never have Slytherin guests!

Rosie: I know!

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Michael: That’s so exciting.

[Eric laughs]

Eric: We’ll see how a Slytherin takes this end of this particular book. But before we do, we’d like to remind all of our listeners to be sure to have read Chapter 36, “The Parting of the Ways,”� in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, which we will be discussing later in this episode.

Rosie: But before that, as we always do, we need to recap our discussion from last week, which was Chapter 35 and you guys have, yet again, blown us away with your amazing discussion. There are so many good posts on our site and on our forums that it was simply impossible to whittle it down to a few. So we’re probably not going to discuss these very much just because they’re already so good, but make sure you do go to the site and check out everything else that’s being written on there because they’re just amazing points. So we will start off with an amazing user name as well, which is BluntsSnitchesandBathsalts.

[Eric laughs]

Rosie: And it says,

“�I agree with the idea of the Foe-Glass working for people in general ownership of it. Similar to lending my computer to a friend; it’s my computer but they could still access it. If it worked for Moody alone (assuming the Foe-Glass can’t be fooled by Polyjuice Potion) wouldn’t Crouch Jr’s face always just appear in it? Moody is in constant mortal peril while no one knows his dire situation. Assuming the Foe-Glass could be hoodwinked by Polyjuice Potion, I still think Crouch Jr would be constantly present in the glass; Moody is still in constant danger and Crouch Jr is still Moody’s immediate enemy regardless.”�

So basically, the conversation was about whether the Foe-Glass was owned by Moody or by Crouch Jr., and if so, why the other one didn’t constantly appear in the image.

Eric: Hmm.

Rosie: And there are some brilliant responses to this, one of which being ElvisGaunt, who says,

“�Probably, the Foe-Glass belonged to Little Crouch. He may have owned it before he went to Azkaban or created it himself before impersonating Moody.”�

To which, OliviaUnderwood replies,

“Agreed. Harry and the DA in fact find it in the Room of Requirement in the next book. Though it was cracked, it apparently was still useable. Why would Mad-Eye, or indeed Dumbledore since I’m guessing Mad-Eye didn’t know about the RoR, throw away a perfectly good Foe-Glass unless it actually wasn’t theirs to begin with? Unless, of course, Mad-Eye didn’t like the idea of using a Foe-Glass [that] had been touched by Crouch Jr’s grubby little fingers…. Just a thought!”�

Eric: [laughs] Hmm, that’s an interesting thought. I think that because Moody is on the mend, he may not have had time or cared much to grab any of the… like you said, grubby little fingers were all over that stuff.

[Rosie laughs]

Eric: I think it is said in the previous chapter that Crouch Jr. grabbed all of Moody’s Dark Detectors and took them with him to school…

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: … from his location and that, as much as anything, was probably to prevent alerting anybody who would search Moody’s place afterwards that Barty Crouch Jr. had been there, but still. So I do think it was Moody’s Foe-Glass, but he probably doesn’t want anything to do with it.

Michael: Yeah, I think it’s Moody’s, too, because I know this discussion came up a few episodes ago, earlier on in Goblet, because we see all of those Dark Detectors when Harry first goes to Moody’s office, and most of them are actually working against Crouch Jr., such as the… oh, what was it? The one that spins. Oh my gosh.

Eric: Sneakoscope? Or…

Michael: Yes, thank you! Sneakoscope, yeah.

Eric: [laughs] The one that spins.

Michael: The one that spins. [laughs] But there were… Rowling used a lot of the Dark Detectors in Moody’s office as hints for the reader that something may not be right with Moody, and Moody passes it off as, “Oh, these are all going crazy because we’re in Hogwarts, and students are distrustful,” but the Foe-Glass is the only one of the items that actually seems to work for him, so… which is the odd one out. So I would be inclined to say that Crouch Jr. actually did steal it from Moody and that he… that the Foe-Glass must be either easily tricked by an enchantment so that it can shift owners or that it does just get accustomed to who[m]ever’s in the presence of it.

Rosie: Interesting thoughts. I don’t think we ever know this one, sadly.

Eric: Yeah, unless we get a summary in the Foe-Glass, the funny this is the Foe-Glass is very… a very vague explanation we get on how that works, so… and we don’t see them very often in the series.

Rosie: I think we only… yeah, we only see this a couple of times when we go into his room, so yeah. Probably not too important as a detail, but it’s just a nice thing of that flash of Dumbledore’s angry eyes when the door breaks down, which obviously shows that he was someone’s enemy at that point, at least.

Kevin: What’s interesting about the Foe-Glass to me is that it seems to be able to see into the future and that when Harry saw Moody in Chapter… oh no… for the dragons when he told him to essentially fly, he saw the vague outlines of the three shapes, so either time in the Harry Potter universe is deterministic, or I don’t know how it could know Dumbledore, Snape, and Minerva were on to Little Crouch when they themselves had no reason to suspect him.

Michael: Yeah, it seems… I always did think it was interesting that it’s specifically those three staff members that the mirror picks early on because really, if you… depnding on how the Foe-Glass works, in Crouch Jr.’s situation, there'[re] a lot of people who could be his enemy.

Eric: No… well, kind of. But I mean, you’ve got the Headmaster, you’ve got the Deputy Headmistress, and then you’ve got Snape, who is…

Rosie: He’s just always there.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Eric: Who’s always around. But also, at a former Death Eater…

Michael: Former Death Eater.

Eric: [unintelligible]

Michael and Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: … and somebody who…

Rosie: And a spy as well, remember? He’s working… he’s the dangerous figure.

Eric: That makes sense, yeah. I mean, I liken this to Book 1 with Quirrell, how Snape and Quirrell didn’t get along the entire year because Snape knew something was up and was interesting in being the only former Death Eater or former person who has ties with Voldemort to be currently working in Hogwarts employ.

Michael: So maybe it is because McGonagall and Dumbledore and top authority and Hogwarts, and Snape has his history with Crouch that that’s why they’re specifically pointed out by the Foe-Glass then.

Eric: And Karkaroff is time and time again revealed to be a coward or somebody who fears reproach or fears capture for any of his [unintelligible]. He… even though the movie really tried to make us think that it was him who put Harry in the Goblet and all that other stuff, in the books he’s just not as much of a threat.

Michael: No. No.

Rosie: Okay. Our next comment is actually me just basically telling you all to go and look at our Audioboo because there is plenty of good discussion happening over there as well, and we’d like to say thanks to David from London, who is joining the discussion about the confusion about the Marauder’s Map and the fact that there are two Barty Crouches with the same name who both appear on the map, and there is no seeming distinction between the two. So head over to our Audioboo feed to take a listen to that whole comment and a few others about this last podcast episode, and here’s a little extract of that comment itself:

[Audio]: Hi, guys. This is David from London. I was listening to your last episode, and I see a lot of fans seem to be confused about why the Marauder’s Map doesn’t differentiate between Barty Crouch Sr. and little Crouch. This is something that never really confused me because I tended to always assume that the Marauder’s Map doesn’t specify names to that degree anyway because – I may be wrong, but as far as I can recall – the map never actually lists anyone’s middle names. Based on that logic I would say it seems to take a very simple first name, surname approach, and more or less go with their “official name,” what would be on their birth certificate. You can argue that this is a shortcoming of the map as it was programmed by the Marauders. I guess they just didn’t foresee a need to potentially differentiate between two people who have the same first and last name. But yeah, I mean, my point basically is that I can see it being a shortcoming of the map, but I don’t think this was an oversight on Jo’s part.

Rosie: Thanks very much for that, David. We’re not going to comment on that now because there are some amazing points that you guys are making over on the site, so do go and check those out. But moving on to a comment from IceBender07 and it says,

“Everybody keeps wondering about the Triwizard Cup and why it took Harry back [to] the maze at Hogwarts. I myself simply thought that it was a Portkey to begin with. I believed that the Triwizard Cup was always planned to be a Portkey to take [which]ever champion who got to it first back to the front of the maze. Of course they would only make it so the cup would [be] activated when it was put in the center of the maze. The problem was Fake Moody was the one to put the cup in the maze, and in doing so he placed a second Portkey spell over the first. I would assume Dumbledore was the one who placed the first Portkey spell on the cup and that Fake Moody would have had a hard time resetting it and instead place a second Portkey spell on top of it. So when Harry and Cedric touched Moody’s Portkey it was activated and sent them to the graveyard. After that the cup then became the Portkey that Dumbledore meant [it] to be.”

Eric: This may go a long way to finally explaining – for me at least – the spacial arrival of where and when they get… how do they get to the front of the maze…

Michael: Hmm.

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: … in the end when they come back? So I really like that comment. I hadn’t really thought about that.

Rosie: Me too. The idea of layered Portkeys is just brilliant. Well done. [laughs] And our final comment from last week comes from madamelestrange, scary Bellatrix…

[Everyone laughs]

Rosie: … and it says… just saying it in that way is kind of like, “Does it really come from Bellatrix? That’s amazing.”

[Everyone laughs]

Rosie: Anyway,

“The discussion about whether or not Mrs. Crouch would revert back to her appearance an hour after her death really intrigued me. Intuitively, I would assume that the body would remain as it were at the time of death – that is to say, if Mrs. Crouch died looking like Little Crouch, that’s the way her body would stay. When one dies, aging and many other (but not all) bodily function cease to happen. Thus, why would the body change back to Mrs. Crouch if she died with the physical appearance of Little Crouch? To me, the changing from one physical appearance to another seems to be a bodily function; thus it, too, would stop happening.”

Eric: I would probably tend to agree with this, except for one thing, which is I think that this issue is linked very much to the issue of Barty Crouch Sr. whose remains have been transfigured into a bone.

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: The reason that Dumbledore asks where the body is buried – I think, I believe – is to eventually go back and dig the bone up and then restore it to the corpse that it was for proper burial.

Rosie: But there is an important distinction to make with that, in that Mrs. Crouch was already transformed before her death, and Barty Crouch Sr. would have been transfigured after his death.

Michael: After.

Eric: Right. And with specific transfiguration you’re like, well this somehow still has properties of what it used to be…

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: … imbued in it, whereas with the Polyjuice Potion, even though that’s true, I think it does require the body to be living. I think that’s fair.

Rosie: My issue with this one, though, is that we know that the Polyjuice Potion wears off, and I don’t think that it’s the actual body that would be the bodily function here. I think it would be the potion that’s actually having the function. So I believe that the body would revert when the potion wears off.

Eric and Michael: Hmm.

Rosie: But if no one’s paying attention at that point because it’s just this criminal bloke who died in jail and it’s only Dementors that are… they’re blind, they can’t see…

Michael: Mmm.

Rosie: … no one would notice if… one dead body is a dead body.

Eric: Well, that was actually the interesting thing is that Mrs. Crouch – from last chapter – took… continued to take the Polyjuice Potion while she was in jail. I guess she just had a really big purse.

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Eric: A really big handbag with a big flask, or beaker or whatever it is. But to pretty much predict… to have an adequate supply to the time she died but the reason, as it’s stated, is the other prisoners.

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: If they’re ever watching, as they drag the dead body to be buried, they would see that it wasn’t in fact his mother. So I think that that would be… she would’ve had to have taken it but then been sure that they would have removed the body within an hour of its dying…

Rosie: Do we know that it only lasts an hour? I mean, the amount that…

Eric: Every hour on the hour.

Michael: Pottermore kind of changed that, though. There’s a… the addition on Polyjuice Potion here says, “The effect of the potion is only temporary, and depending on how well it has been brewed, may last anything from between ten minutes and twelve hours.”

Eric: Wow.

Rosie: That’s what I thought. The amount that the trio take in Philosopher’s Stone

Eric: Mhm.

Rosie: … that only lasts an hour. They only take a sip because it tastes so bad.

Eric: Right.

Rosie: If she was drinking flagons of the stuff then maybe…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “Give me more!”

Michael: Yeah.

Rosie: Yeah, exactly. Maybe it lasts longer. We don’t know.

Eric: Yeah, that’s fair. The only other thing I wanted to say about that was that in the previous chapter Dumbledore did say “every hour on the hour” for it.

Rosie: Okay.

Eric: So even though it’s been cleared up later on Pottermore that it can last for longer…

Rosie: That one… okay.

Eric: … Dumbledore totally expected that Crouch would have been so excited that he forgot to take it in the last hour…

Michael: Yeah.

Rosie: Mhm.

Eric: … and was correct in guessing that he would in fact transform back during their interrogation of him, which happened last chapter.

Kevin: And about that… just quickly about Mrs. Crouch, even if it was twelve hours – I did some math here – she would need at least three or four gallons, say if she lived only three months or even less after she got in… whereas if she needed every hour on the hour, she would have needed close to ninety gallons of Polyjuice Potion.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Rosie: Wow.

Eric: See, we need more PhD candidates here…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … on this show to completely blow cannonball-sized holes in the ship of J.K. Rowling.

Kevin: Not one yet. Soon.

Eric: Yes, well, still, future… surely.

Kevin: Yes, yes indeed.

Eric: Surely you’re on your way. But that’s amazing. Ninety gallons, huh?

Rosie: That’s a lot.

Michael: Well, I think maybe we could also… could we assume that… well, no, not necessarily because she turned into Crouch Jr… I was thinking maybe somehow Crouch Sr. could have been slipping him – or her – Polyjuice Potion…

Eric: Mhm.

Michael: … but I guess publicly he probably wouldn’t go visit her that much if she was disguised as Crouch Jr., so…

Eric: Right. And she’s going there to die.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: And also, we do know that handbags can be bigger on the inside, though.

Michael: You get to keep your handbag when you go into Azkaban? Is that allowed?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: The Dementors can’t stop you!

Rosie: Maybe you could take a thimble-sized cup that’s actually gallons on the inside.

[Eric laughs]

Rosie: That would be quite cool. Never-ending drinks.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: She had a whole Polyjuice laboratory. It’s like Breaking Bad in a thimble…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … yeah, but I digress.

Kevin: Yeah, but Gallifreyan stuff is quite expensive so they might not have had money.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: All right, well, those were some great responses to last week’s episode and with that we’re going to jump into the responses from last week’s Podcast Question of the Week, where we focused on poor Cedric Diggory and in our question we gave him a second chance at things.

Eric: Aww.

Michael: Yeah! The question was, “Let’s say by some miracle…” some miracle… pick a miracle of your choice…

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Michael: “… Diggory had hidden properly, or was somehow spared and survived the whole ordeal, and Portkeyed back with Harry alive rather than dead. How would this scene have played out differently? Would Cedric be as famous as Harry moving forward in the story? Would Moody still have been caught without the whole trauma aspect of the event? Would they have believed them if there weren’t a dead body as proof?” Now…

Rosie: Would he ever have transformed into a sparkly vampire?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Somebody’s contract would have gotten renewed, I can answer that right now.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: So many unanswered questions.

[Rosie laughs]

Michael: But for the responses this week, a lot of you were saying the same thing, so I pretty much took all of your responses and pulled out the main bullet points from what you guys were saying. So the main one was firstly what would have actually happened in the graveyard. A lot of people did not feel that Cedric would have hidden. He would have tried to help Harry but would somehow have been rendered unable to do so, i.e., being stunned, blocked, or petrified, etc. since we can’t kill him in this situation.

Eric: Oh. But yeah…

Michael: But he would have tried to help because Cedric has shown much bravery and activeness in this series, so everybody was…

Eric: Loyalty.

Michael: Yes, and people were rather surprised at the suggestion – I think [laughs] – that he would have hidden. Unless on Harry’s orders but even then… and that Cedric would once… Upon return, Cedric would corroborate Harry’s story of the events in the graveyard. But a lot of you felt that due to his lack of fame in the wizarding community, which would not be boosted, according to all of you, from the night’s events due to everyone focusing on Harry…

Eric: Mmm.

Michael: … this would not change the views of Fudge and the Ministry. However, the wizarding public might be more inclined to believe Cedric and Harry, which I thought was interesting, that everybody kind of went to the… a lot of the listeners went straight for “Oh yeah, Cedric still wouldn’t matter.”

Eric: Wow.

Michael: In that case, would you guys agree with that? Because I just thought that was an interesting…

Rosie: Based on the evidence of what we know from Deathly Hallows, it takes them a long time to realize that Ron and Hermione are missing too.

Michael: Mhm.

Rosie: Yeah, everyone would focus on Harry and forget about whoever is around him.

[Eric laughs]

Michael: Yeah, yeah. I…

Eric: Well, I don’t know. That’s during a police state, so things…

Rosie: True.

Eric: … really fall through the cracks because people’s entire families are being upended and submitted for questioning.

Rosie: But Harry was still Undesirable No. 1 and…

Michael: And they were his cohorts, yeah.

Rosie: … they kind of forgot about the others. [laughs]

Eric: I think though – using what happens in this next coming chapter to inform, seeing how… the great lengths that Fudge is willing to go to to deny the existence of Voldemort, after being presented with all of the evidence, and even more that isn’t presented or taken, that he still doesn’t believe it happened – I think it is agreeable that Cedric would be ignored the same way that Harry is, because the world is just not ready for it at that time. Or the world… I mean, Fudge.

Michael: Yeah.

Rosie: Mhm.

Kevin: Yeah, I agree with you Eric, because if a dead body being Avada Kedavra‘d didn’t convince the students…

[Rosie laughs]

Kevin: …with Dumbledore’s prestige on the line, I don’t know what would. [as Umbridge] “Diggory’s death was a tragic accident.” Umbridge says.

[Everyone laughs]

Kevin: [as Umbridge] “How… what was the official report on his death anyway? We don’t really know.”

Eric: Mmm.

Kevin: But it was obvious he was Avada Kedavra-ed.

Eric: Yes. Which means somebody cast an Unforgivable charm, which means somebody needs… or charm, gosh, it’s a curse. But that means somebody needs to get arrested because those things are illegal.

Michael: Yes.

Rosie: Very true.

Eric: So where is the arrest investigation, huh?

Michael: Well yeah, because in the later chapters we find out that this doesn’t even end up in the Daily Prophet. Fudge manages to keep this out of the Prophet, which is pretty amazing. [laughs]

Eric: Well, it’s pretty easy with his star reporter in captivity, but we’ll talk about that later.

Michael: Yes. True that. But we’ll get to that thing.

Kevin: The only reporter, it sometimes seems like.

Michael and Rosie: Yeah.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Yes.

Michael: Well yeah, because the funny thing is – as far as Rita being the star reporter – until Goblet of Fire we don’t know…

Rosie: We’ve never heard of her. [laughs]

Michael: Yeah. [laughs] And none of the articles are specified – that we read in the Prophet before that – to have been written by her. And there are implications in the other books that there are other reporters working at the Prophet [laughs] but I think Rita just gets the star treatment in this book because she has to for character development.

Rosie: Mhm.

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: But yeah, it is kind of amazing that all the press… that this was managed to be kept out of the Daily Prophet completely. But that does say – yeah – how in denial Fudge is, but… after the night itself people were saying that Harry and Cedric would split the prize money from this – from the event, from the Triwizard Tournament – meaning that only half of it would go to Fred and George.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Eric: It would bankrupt Fred and George. Leave that to the listeners to be saying Fred and George would not be able to get their business off the ground, because…

Michael: Oh, so many people were so much sadder about that.

Rosie: [laughs] So detailed.

Eric: … because Cedric survived. That’s brilliant. I love people.

Michael: Well no, it was great actually, the listeners really looked even past the timeline we were looking at, because of course this – keeping Cedric alive – really does strongly change the events of the Order of the Phoenix. A lot of people discussed that Cedric would actually join and be a great asset to Dumbledore’s Army.

Eric: Mhm.

Michael: Some people even wondered if Dumbledore’s Army would be started at all, because they’re… a lot of that came from Cedric passing. But people said that Cedric would be a great asset because he would be in his seventh year, he would know a lot more spells than a lot of the others, he would be really helpful in that situation. Cho would remain in a relationship with Cedric, prompting Harry to find romance elsewhere. A lot of people said possibly with Ginny, but…

[Rosie laughs]

Eric: [laughs] Possibly. It’s such a possibility ever since Jo said that thing in that article.

Michael: Oh, God.

Rosie: She never said anything! It’s so stupid!

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: And overall, Harry would behave considerably different in Order of the Phoenix. People said he would not be able to see the Thestrals…

Eric: Ooh.

Rosie: Yeah, true.

Eric: … which is a major issue. People pointed out that would…

Rosie: Sirius would never have died. Oh my gosh.

Eric: Yep. People have said that…

Rosie: They would have never made it to the Ministry.

Michael: … his rash decisions at the book’s end might have been drastically altered because of…

Rosie: What?

Michael: … because of this, so yeah. We’re basically asking a question that would completely change Order of the Phoenix.

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Kevin: So Cedric is the Ned Stark of the Harry Potter world. He has to die to get everyone… oops, spoilers.

[Eric, Michael, and Rosie laugh]

Rosie: Everyone knows that one. It’s fine.

Michael: No, it’s true, though, yeah. Really, with any of these what-ifs that we ask, I think we do so knowing that we’re drastically changing.

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: It’s the whole step-on-a-butterfly-somewhere-in-the-world-and-something-horrible…

Eric: Tsunamis and…

Michael: Yeah, and then in terms of what would happen, actually, the other big thing was what would happen to Crouch Jr.? And people know that due to the lack of commotion, now that there’s no dead body appearing in front of the maze, Moody would not be able to take Harry off the scene because there wouldn’t be any hubbub to get him out of there. There were various suggestions as to what would happen next. Some people said he might actually transform back into Crouch Jr. [laughs] in front of everyone due to his neglectfulness with the Polyjuice Potion…

[Rosie laughs]

Michael: … that he might be discovered later due to Dumbledore’s suspicions, or that he might have time to compose himself and flee. So there were a lot of possibilities that he’d make it out and get back to Voldemort and there were a lot of possibilities that he would still be caught. The majority seemed to agree that he would still be caught, since Dumbledore was already on to him at that point.

Eric: Hmm. Well, if Pettigrew can escape, I’m going to say that…

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Eric: … Barty Crouch could, although I will – to be fair – Dumbledore was quote “onto him.”

Michael: Yeah. Yeah.

Rosie: Was he, though? I mean, the whole…

Eric: Well, not until he takes Harry away.

Rosie: Yeah, but he wouldn’t have taken Harry away if there was no dead body to take him away from.

Eric: Right. Well, then I think Dumbledore would have remained completely clueless as to how it had happened.

Michael: I don’t know. I thought he was onto it because there’s that line where… the narration doesn’t specify, but you get the revelation of who was talking after the fact when Harry first wakes up in the maze and he can hear people talking and Moody suggests, “We should get him out of here, we should take him away.” And Dumbledore says, [as Dumbledore] “Umm, no, he should stay and…”

Rosie: [laughs] Yeah.

Michael: … and then Moody’s insistent and then Dumbledore insists to Harry that he stay because Moody’s not listening to him.

Eric: Mmm.

Michael: So I think Dumbledore did know by that point. I think he had his suspicions. He may have not known the full thing, but I think he knew that something was wrong.

Kevin: Very interesting.

Michael: So… but we had a lot of great responses from you listeners this week. Since I pulled out all of your points, I wanted to shout out to each of you. We had responses for the Podcast Question of the Week from ArchdukeSeverus, ElvisGaunt, Gi… I don’t know if that’s “Guy” or “Jai,” so many ways to pronounce that.

Eric: “Gee.”

Michael: “Gee”? Ooh, very nice. Hadas, HallowsMaster97, HedwigsTheme, JesKalina, Laura, Leah McCurdy, LeslieLovegood, madame_lestrange, Mysterium Scriptor, Olivia Underwood, and WatchSky181. You all joined us on the main site to discuss the Podcast Question of the Week and if you guys want to read their responses in full, make sure [to] check out the Alohomora! main site for those.

Eric: And that, of course, brings us to the big one, “The Parting of the Ways,” Chapter 36.

[Goblet of Fire Chapter 36 intro begins]

[Sound of insect buzzing]

Dumbledore: Chapter 36.

Hermione: Mmm… got you!

[Buzzing stops]

Dumbledore: “The Parting of the Ways.”

Hermione: Oh, sorry.

Goblet of Fire Chapter 36 intro ends]

Eric: Well, ladies and gentlemen, listeners at home, people who listen to this show know that this is a global reread of the Harry Potter books that we do here on Alohomora! and what better a chapter? This chapter really gets to the moment where reading this chapter for a second time – rereading, going back – really has a profound effect. It is probably the most rewarding reread experience that you can have in a chapter, at least that I recall from recent memory. There’s a lot of stuff in here, like the gleam of triumph, and things that come into play later.

Michael: Yeah, this is an exciting chapter… I’m so glad I got to be on this one because this… it’s kind of funny, rereading it now, but just… when I was rereading it this time I was kind of sitting there thinking, “This was THE chapter.”

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: “This was THE chapter with all the questions that we would be stuck with…

[Rosie laughs]

Michael: … for the next so many years,” right?

Rosie: I just have to say one thing before we start, okay?

Eric: Yeah.

Rosie: [as Hermione] “Everything’s going to change now, isn’t it?”

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: God. That line.

Eric: Oh, God.

[Rosie laughs]

Michael: You know…

Kevin: The movies in general…

Michael: We’ll get there. We will get… I have… God, you guys, the movie viewing. I’m going to have so much to say. [laughs]

Rosie: [laughs] It’s going to be good.

Michael: Oh my God.

Eric: So are you guys ready?

Michael: Oh, we’re ready.

Kevin: Yeah.

Eric: All right. We’re going to do it. We last left off with Barty Crouch Jr. in Moody’s office – or his own office, as you say – having just told the story. A still drugged Barty Crouch is now being bound by Dumbledore. Dumbledore does that thing with his ropes and they’re coming out of the wand. He begins to delegate responsibilities to the other people present. McGonagall is in charge of watching Barty Crouch Jr., even though he doesn’t appear to be that much of a threat right now. He, himself, Dumbledore is going to take Harry to the hospital wing. He tells Snape to get the real Moody and take the real Moody to the hospital wing, and then he tells Snape to alert the Minister of Magic, Cornelius Fudge, who will most certainly wish to interrogate Barty Crouch for himself.

Michael: Oh, most certainly. With much…

Eric: Most certainly.

Michael: With much fairness, and…

[Rosie laughs]

Eric: It’s extremely fair. You almost hate how fair Dumbledore is in this chapter.

Michael: [laughs] There will be no backwards politics involved in that at all. [laughs]

Eric: Yes, we’re not going to subjugate authority.

[Michael laughs]


It’s really fair, though, that they’ve just heard this story for themselves, and Dumbledore really is doing what’s right here in allowing the Minister of Magic to see this guy.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: There’s only a question about it because of what happens later, but…

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: … from this side of it, from this side of the event, you’re thinking, “Great, Dumbledore. You’re putting the plan in action. You’re really affecting government view, changing it for the better. You’re doing what’s right.”

Michael: Yeah. No, this is Dumbledore, kind of, at his best.

Rosie: Mhm.

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: I remember, the first time reading this, “It’s always so comforting when Dumbledore goes into action and he knows what he’s… he’s had this plan in place… he’s like, ‘I’ve had this plan in place for five months now.'”

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Michael: This is one of five different plans that I had. [laughs]

Eric: Oh, gosh. And we get that later, when he gives Fudge these two specific options.

Michael and Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: Where do these come from?

[Michael laughs]

Eric: But more on that later. But yes, this whole chapter Dumbledore is all about it. He’s all over it.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: He’s working, he’s zippy, and this is the Dumbledore that… see, we don’t know, at this point, about the Order of the Phoenix, we don’t know about any of the other stuff he’s done in the past, but just seeing him work.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: And it’s really akin to what happened the previous year, where he sets everything up for Sirius’s escape.

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: He’s just on the ball.

Michael: Mhm.

Rosie: I think this section is what really makes the beginning of the next book so painful, as well, because we have seen Dumbledore so proactive and so on it, and so doing everything, that when we find out that Harry has just been abandoned to his emo-ness for the entire summer, we are kind of just like, “What happened? Dumbledore was on it. Why have you left this guy behind?”

[Eric laughs]

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: You’re right. He let Harry…

Rosie: It’s the contra…

Eric: He totally lets Harry fall by the wayside. And I think that is something that’s – maybe it’s meant to be – quite jarring because there’s a mystery about why he’s done it.

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: But definitely one of the reasons why I like Book 4, and don’t care so much about Book 5.

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Eric: But we’ll get to that.

Michael: We’ll get to that later. [laughs]

Eric: Soon enough. Yeah. Harry and Dumbledore do leave the office, but Dumbledore says, “You’re not quite going to the hospital wing just yet. We actually have Sirius waiting for you in my office, Harry.” And this is a great way to get Harry to comply with… He knows what he has to do. He has to tell Dumbledore what has happened in the graveyard.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: Because we have Barty Crouch Jr.’s side of the story, but we don’t actually know anything that happened because Barty Crouch wasn’t in the graveyard with Harry, so Harry is really worried about having to recount his story. The idea that Sirius Black is there, though, is quite comforting. If he… even for the readers, you’re like, “But we get to see Sirius again. This is so nice.”

Michael: Oh, yeah.

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: Definitely.

Rosie: He’s finally got a family member to sit there and hold his hand when the bad stuff happens.

Eric: Yeah, and he does. Sirius is great in this chapter. I think you’ll agree. Harry actually has the fortitude to ask Dumbledore about Cedric’s parents, who, in the book, are both there.

Michael: Yes.

Eric: And Dumbledore… his voice cracks a little bit, which is the first time Harry ever sees that happen. And he says that they’re actually… Cedric’s parents are with Professor Sprout, who is the head of Michael and I’s house, Hufflepuff.

Michael: Aww.

Rosie: Yay!

Eric: And Rosie’s.

Rosie: I’m a Hufflepuff!

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Yeah, don’t you want to be a Hufflepuff with a cool Head of House, like Sprout?

Kevin: Yeah!

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Michael: Crazy witch.

Eric: But, again, Harry going into Dumbledore’s office is not looking forward to recounting the story. Sirius is pale, but nothing much new there…

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Eric: He looks pretty much like he did last year – he’s had a rough year – I mean, he’s still been on the run-ish, so that is excused.

Michael: The funny thing for me with rereading this is I realize that every time I’ve reread this before – because she just basically says that “Sirius looks pretty much like he did last year.” – I always picture him in his Azkaban prison outfit.

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Michael: Like he never took it off, even though we know at one point he’s in a suit when he talks to Harry. But I’m always like, “What happened? What was going on in between that he had a suit?”

[Eric, Kevin, and Rosie laugh]

Eric: I would have to recall exactly when that is, but…

Michael: It’s one of the times when he talks to Harry in the fire.

Eric: Yeah, it’s definitely a funny question. But we do get the reunion here. And this is important because Harry does have to recount his story, there’s no getting around it. Dumbledore says, “I need to know what happened after you touched the Portkey in the maze, Harry.” Sirius immediately jumps to Harry’s side, he says, Can’t this wait? He could sleep on it. He could feel a little bit better in the morning.” And Harry just has this overwhelming sense of gratitude to Sirius. And furthermore – when he does recount the story – Sirius has his hand on his shoulder the whole time. And he grips his shoulder in all the right moments and that really helps Harry – to coax Harry through telling this story – which really, in terms of what we didn’t get to have… the reality with Sirius never… Harry never being able to live with Sirius after the end of last book – it’s a really small but substantial, I think, consolation for the closeness between the two of them that we always want to be there. But before this happens, before Harry recounts his story, there’s a line that Dumbledore has. When Sirius asks if he can wait, and I’ll just… here’s a paraphrasing of what Dumbledore says. He says, “If I thought I could help you, Harry, for one minute, by putting you into an enchanted sleep I would. But I know better. Numbing the pain for a while will only make it worse when you finally feel it.”

Rosie: It’s so tragic.

Eric: This is one of those moments where knowing what happens in the future – or in this case, in the past – is Dumbledore speaking from personal experience.

Rosie: He must be.

Kevin: Yes.

Michael: Oh, yeah. Definitely. I think what was funny to me on this reread more than any other is that – and maybe it’s because… I keep saying that, I’ve said this in three different episodes but… I feel like, with age I’m really starting to get a much clearer understanding of… especially the things Dumbledore says, because I think when I read this when I was… because I was about fourteen when I read Goblet of Fire. I was just like, “No, I’m with Harry. I want to go to sleep.”

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Time to rest. I don’t want to talk about it. And I can totally get that from that kind of perspective at that age. But now, being freshly twenty-five, it’s funny that I get… I actually think Dumbledore is correct here. I think I was… and it’s kind of amazing to realize just how much these last two chapters are really about Harry getting some kind of catharsis, so that he can move forward in his life. And that’s the narration… really pushes that… it’s really all about Harry, kind of, balling up his emotions and then he needs to learn how to move on. And of course which will take us into the next book, and things that go in there but… go ahead, Rosie.

Rosie: To me this is also kind of the end of the Dumbledore I like…

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Wow…

Rosie: Rather annoyingly. I really have issues with what happens to Dumbledore in the next couple of books…

Eric: Do you think he becomes… not to put words in your mouth, but does he become pathetic, does he become too apologetic?

Rosie: No, the opposite!

Eric: Oh, really!

Rosie: I love the kind of grandfather figure Dumbledore that is this kind of emotional blanket figure, like he’s… he doesn’t want to prolong the pain for Harry by putting him to sleep and then making for it tomorrow. That kind of line sums up the Dumbledore that I think I knew from the earlier books…

Michael: Mhm.

Rosie: Where he is this kind of grandfather figure, where he’s really looking out for his emotional welfare. And then, with the emo summer coming up, from that moment on he’s a very different figure. He doesn’t seem to care about Harry’s emotional welfare quite as much, or at least not in a way that’s as visible to us.

Eric and Michael: Mhm.

Rosie: Obviously we find out later that it’s kind of because he was feeling too much almost, and he was trying to distance himself, et cetera…

Eric: [laughs] Right, right.

Rosie: … but knowing his backstory and from the later book, kind of jarring with his character that he becomes. I like this Dumbledore.

Michael: Mhm.

Rosie: And I miss him.

Kevin: Can I disagree completely there?

[Eric laughs]

Rosie: Of course. Please do.

Eric: Absolutely.

Kevin: Speaking as someone…

Michael: Now you each have to write a thousand words on it.

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Michael: Go for it, Kevin.

Kevin: Speaking as someone who hates Michael Gambon with an undying passion…

[Eric laughs]

Kevin: I think Dumbledore present, in Books 5, 6, and 7 is both paradoxically the same and much different as the ones we see in 1, 2, 3, and 4. Those like you said in the beginning – I mean, in the end – he does care for Harry when Harry goes through PTSD in the summer… I mean, a) that’s what it is, it is PTSD after seeing this traumatic death of a classmate at such a young age, and also I think Dumbledore has always been this manipulator, and he’s always cared for Harry, his speech end of Book 5, when Harry is destroying his office, but this Dumbledore, it’s wartime Dumbledore, Chamberlain’s out Churchill’s in…

[Rosie laughs]

Kevin: … got to start planning and plotting, and Harry… since book one, since he was… hmm, no, Book 2, since Dumbledore had an idea about the Horcruxes, Harry was always a… going to be a pawn. A pig to be sacrificed…

[Michael laughs]

Kevin: … as Snape says in Book 7, and you can like people you are sending to their death as a commander, I’m sure it’s a boon, so you don’t spend their lives wastefully, but Dumbledore says to Snape, “Harry will know this is the right thing to do.” And Harry agrees, his life is not less than defeating evil incarnate, so…

Rosie: Yeah.

Kevin: … this Dumbledore I think is fantastic. It’s great, you see him outside of Hogwarts, being the wizard Voldemort always feared most.

Eric: Yeah, I agree because I think… the funny thing, Rosie, when you were talking about how likeable this Dumbledore is, I kind of thought back to the kind of constant ongoing debate about what makes Dumbledore and Gandalf different.

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Eric: And for those of you who have seen The Lego Movie, not much. But a lot of the things that… one of the main points that people cite about the two of them is that Gandalf is endlessly awesome, like he’s just like, “Oh, I’m so awesome and then I died, and I came back and I was even more awesome…”

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Eric: “… and I like destroying Hobbits’ lives ’cause they don’t matter, but…”

[Kevin, Michael, and Rosie laugh]

Eric: “… otherwise I’m awesome, and I have no accountability for that.”

[Kevin laughs]

Rosie: “All I wanted to do is change my wardrobe!”

Eric: Yep.

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Eric: Pretty much.

Michael: Went from gray to white. It’s an improvement, but be careful – it stains.

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Eric: But versus Dumbledore who really realizes that despite… he’s kind of doing the same thing with – as you said, Kevin – pig for slaughter, putting somebody out there that he ends up caring greatly for, but this young man still has to do the mission that he was destined for in Dumbledore’s eyes. He realizes he makes mistakes in that kind of lead-up to that and he really begins to care about Harry and he… throughout the later part of the series, he’s like, “I made a lot of oopsies.”

[Michael laughs]

Eric: “And I regret them.”

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: “And there’s nothing I can do about it, but I feel awful about it and I…”

Michael: In a way, almost by the end of it, Dumbledore’s like, “I know I’m a horrible person. That’s what makes me so great.” [laughs] And so…

Rosie: But that’s what’s so jarring to me. It’s like the Dumbledore we see in “The Prince’s Tale” in Snape’s dying memories, where it’s meant to be going along at the same time as the Dumbledore we’re seeing in these books and the two just don’t match in my head at all.

Eric: Hmm.

Rosie: The way that he speaks to Snape in that office, describing what’s going on, and the Dumbledore we see here talking to Harry just two different people. I can’t marry them up in my head. It doesn’t work.

Eric: Well, Rosie, bringing everything back to this chapter. I think there’s enough evidence for me to toe the line in between your two theories and what you guys think, and I’ll bring it up in just a moment.

Rosie: Okay.

Eric: But I think it’s a very compelling question about Dumbledore and about how well the first half of the series Dumbledore and the second half of the series Dumbledore mesh. But doesn’t Gandalf walk away and leave them for like months and months and months and months and months and months and do other crap?

Rosie: Pretty much.

Michael: [laughs] Pretty much.

Rosie: The biggest question in Lord of the Rings is “Where’s Gandalf?”

Eric: Yeah. Because I enjoy how Dumbledore is very in the… he makes all the things happen.

Rosie: Omnipresent.

Kevin: Not to get too off topic, Lord of the Rings only occurs from October 26 through March 13, 18?

Rosie: This is very true.

Kevin: And he went to fight Sauron at Dol Guldur in The Hobbit. So just saying, a dragon…

Eric: He was doing important stuff, but nobody picked his mind. What happens off-screen?

Kevin: Don’t hate on my pal, Gandalf.

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Eric: I was just thinking when he was at Saruman’s palace on the roof for a year, I don’t know, it seemed like a year, I’m surprised.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: But having never read, I won’t further my questions. Getting back to this chapter of the… which is long enough without our detractions.

[Everyone laughs]

Rosie: Back to the right points, guys!

Eric: Our brilliant discussion. So these are the things that this book makes us feel. But getting back to it, Harry begins telling his story. And, first, he basically he has to talk about how Voldemort came to be around again, how he got his body back. And he…

[Kevin and Michael laugh]

Kevin: Chooses well.

[Kevin and Michael laugh]

Eric: This involves Harry holding his arm out and showing his wound. This is the moment that we’ve all been waiting for, of course, the aforementioned “gleam of triumph” moment. I really just have to quote directly from the book here because this is important. This goes directly into what we were just talking about, I feel.

Michael: Oh yes, please.

Eric: Harry’s quote:

“He said the protection my – my mother left in me – he’d have it too. And he was right – he could touch me without hurting himself, he touched my face.”

For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore’s eyes. But the next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it, for when Dumbledore had returned to his seat behind the desk, he looked as old and weary as Harry had ever seen him.

“Very well,” he said, sitting down again.” Voldemort has overcome that particular barrier. Harry, continue, please.”

This gleam of triumph.

Rosie: Lies.

Eric: For me, feels very much like Manipulator Dumbledore…

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: … saying now he’s done it, the Dark Lord has really marked Harry as his equal or really caused the two to twine even further. This is the Dumbledore that relishes the fact that Harry and Voldemort are one step closer together.

Michael: Yeah, I remember… I mean, of course, everybody I’m sure listening, the line that everybody latched on to for years and years and years, because it was so befuddling. I remember reading it and just being like, “Why?”

Rosie: “Triumph, what?”

Michael: “Why is Dumbledore being even remotely triumphant about this? What?”

Eric: Well, there’s doubt. Doubt is cast right to it because it’s a gleam, which is just a fleeting, kind of peripheral vision or something like triumph. I don’t know. And then he doesn’t…

Rosie: It’s the thing that everyone in the fandom just clung to, that Dumbledore has a plan. Everything will be okay because Dumbledore has a plan. And then Half-Blood Prince happens and we’re like, “Wait a second… what? But he had a plan! What?”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: But he doesn’t bring attention to it. Immediately he says, “Oh, so Voldemort overcame that particular obstacle. Oops.”

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: “Okay, he’s one step closer to killing us all.” That’s what he says, but what he is thinking is clearly something completely the opposite…

Rosie: Mhm.

Eric: … and the fact that he doesn’t call attention to it to Sirius, who is immediately right there holding Harry… that Harry is there and he doesn’t call attention to it really is troublesome and this is why I think he does mesh with the later Dumbledore.

Rosie: Mhm.

Eric: It could just be that it’s the end of the book and there was no other way [laughs] that Jo in one year could write any other words into this book – the same that she had the previous books – and doesn’t want to get into it at this part in the story because there’s obviously quite a bit left to happen even in this chapter. But still, the fact that Dumbledore hides it, I think, would go more to say that he’s almost enjoying himself in an inappropriate way that he shouldn’t, except to say that he has a plan.

Michael: Oh, yeah. I think… because Dumbledore even says that in later books that he… you feel it from the way that he talks about how things progress. He’s just like, “Oh, good. Very good. Very glad that this horrible, horrible thing happened.” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, exactly. So Rosie, does this change your idea at all? Or how you feel about the previous Dumbledore meshing with the later ones? Because I think it starts to happen here very obviously.

Rosie: Yeah, it does start to happen. But it doesn’t make me any happier about it.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: She still doesn’t like him.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Hey, fair enough. I’ve been one who picks and chooses books ever since the last one came out, so…

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: … there is that. Now Harry is talking… he continues the story and of course after he regenerates there’s the part about dueling Lord Voldemort. And this is where Dumbledore shocks everyone because Harry is talking about the wands connecting and Sirius interrupts; he’s like, “Well, how does that work?” And as it turns out, Dumbledore is an expert on this phenomenon of Priori Incantatem. He just stands up and he lays down exactly how it works, which I’m shocked about because I didn’t realize it was… I mean, I certainly don’t think it’s common. But he’s basically able to tell exactly what happened. Now, we learn something new. We knew that Voldemort’s and Harry’s wands were made up of the same core, that it’s a phoenix, and that it’s the same phoenix. We find out that it’s Fawkes, which is a huge deal. This is the first time it’s mentioned that that’s in fact Fawkes. And really the biggest question I have on this is: How is it that Fawkes came to be in the employ or on the donors list? I mean, was he short of cash or something? And they’re like, “Cash for your phoenix tail feather!”?

[Kevin and Rosie laugh]

Eric: What exactly… what circumstances caused Fawkes to give tail feathers to become wands? And furthermore, why only two? And why only these two? You would think that phoenixes wouldn’t be common enough that Ollivander would just be like, “Okay, I’ll take two and then I won’t ask you for any more.” It’s a phoenix! You should take as many as you can. A little bit more if you’re making wands for the entire wizarding public for all of London.

Michael: Mhm.

Rosie: Maybe they only drop feathers very, very occasionally and those just happen to be the only two that he’s ever lost.

Michael: Well, it’s been made clear on Pottermore that wand cores… particularly the wand cores that Ollivander pursues… because he says on Pottermore and he very strictly believes that the three he uses – unicorn hair, phoenix feather, and dragon heartstring – are the ones that he has found are the best wand cores to use and that if you use anything else you’re stupid. [laughs] He makes that very clear.

[Rosie laughs]

Eric: Well, yeah, he says that, but a phoenix would be an almost unending source of tail feathers because they burn, they die, and then they come back…

Michael: Yeah, there’s…

Eric: … so Fawkes would essentially be able to supply Ollivander with a lifetime supply. In fact, everybody who has a phoenix tail feather wand; it could have come from Fawkes.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: But it’s only two, which I think is just weird, and not because it’s clearly a part of the story that they’re brother wands and they can’t do battle with each other…

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: … but really, why would it have to be Fawkes? What does this matter? This is like making Snape the man who overheard the prophecy that Trelawney gave and being the one who betrayed Harry’s parents. I thought it didn’t need to happen. It could have been anybody. Why did it have to be Snape?

Kevin: Well…

Eric: It’s forcing something here. I mean, I realize there’s two separate arguments there but ultimately what is the relevance that it was Fawkes and why are there only two feathers?

Michael: What were you going to ask, Kevin?

Kevin: First off, are we sure that Fawkes has only given two feathers? I mean, Harry duels Malfoy, Voldemort, anonymous Death Eater…

[Eric laughs]

Kevin: … less than half a dozen people, I’d say, throughout the course of the series. There’s a couple thousand wizards and/or witches in the UK alone, so maybe it’s just he’s never dueled anyone who has another phoenix tail feather from Fawkes.

Eric: Kevin, I was looking for the quote in Goblet of Fire. It isn’t stated specifically but in the Sorcerer’s Stone movie…

Kevin: Ooh.

[Rosie laughs]

Eric: … and it may be a quote from the first book as well… [as Ollivander] “The phoenix whose tail feather resides in this wand gave another feather. Just… one… other.”

Rosie: Yeah, it does say just one other.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: That is particularly referenced by the War Doctor of all people

[Rosie laughs]

Michael: There’s a lot of great… one of the questions that comes up for me is: Did Dumbledore own Fawkes when the feathers were taken for Voldemort’s wand? Because that was a long time ago.

Eric: This ties…

Rosie: Maybe it’s like… Dumbledore gave two feathers when Tom Riddle’s wand was made and then they realized who got the wand, what he was doing with it, and said, “All right, Fawkes, I’m not doing any more tail feathers. No more evil wizard wands from you!”

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: “Only evil wizards seem to like your feathers, Fawkes.”

[Rosie laughs]

Eric: “You shouldn’t give any more. You’ll encourage them.

Michael: I imagine that Ollivander… I mean, Ollivander surely knows Priori Incantatem. He knows a lot about how wands behave as evidenced by Deathly Hallows.

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: He probably intentionally doesn’t take cores from the same animal very often, for this case. For this reason alone probably, which…

Eric: So that as many people can battle as many people as possible.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Well, yeah, because that’s what wizards do use their wands for.

Eric: You could see how that would be valuable, actually.

Michael and Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: So that’s really odd, actually. Ollivander seems to make it harder on himself…

Rosie: Well, I mean, if he’s only ever really picking three types of wand core then there must be more phoenixes than we’ve seen.

[Eric laughs]

Rosie: It can’t just be one.

Michael: It’s hard being a wandmaker.

Eric: Exactly, because they can’t do battle with… and that’s what this whole thing is, that Dumbledore explains, that these wands cannot do battle with each other. But knowing that it’s Fawkes, and that Fawkes is under the ownership or protection or care of Dumbledore, really ties Harry and Voldemort together and then Dumbledore together.

Michael: Oh, yeah.

Rosie: Mhm.

Eric: The three of them have their fates entwined even greater for this little, simple, very little fact.

Kevin: Yeah, I think that’s…

Rosie: It’s that magical number. Three comes up so many times. Three, seven… they’re all in there.

Eric: Mhm.

Michael: And I think that’s the answer to that question about… why Dumbledore? Why Fawkes? As far as the… I mean, it’s really powerful symbolism as far as the story goes, that Dumbledore pulling the strings, Dumbledore being such an integral player in the survival of either Harry or Voldemort…

Rosie: Mhm.

Michael: Very important. I think it’s a really nice little detail. I loved… I think the thing that kind of unnerves me is the part when Dumbledore says, “And then Ollivander immediately wrote me a letter right after you left the shop.”

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Wow, he’s just been under constant surveillance, hasn’t he?

[Everyone laughs]

Kevin: Also, there’s another domesticated phoenix in the Harry Potter universe. I just found this out. His name is Sparky. He is the phoenix mascot of the New Zealand Quidditch team.

Michael: Oh, yeah.

[Everyone laughs]

Kevin: The Moutohora Macaws.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Ooh, that’s a Maori name if there ever was one.

Rosie: Yeah.

Kevin: So I lost a lot of respect for Dumbledore knowing that he had a phoenix that was a pet when I saw a Quidditch team had the same name, so…

[Rosie laughs]

Michael: That any Quidditch team can domesticate a phoenix.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: They’re a pretty big deal, guys.

Rosie: The phoenix feathers link these three characters in a key way that is linked to the Hallows, in my view.

Eric: Mhm.

Rosie: I mean, you’ve got… okay, so Hallows, you’ve got wand, cloak, and stone. Out of these three figures, the wands are obviously a massive connection. Two of them own wands with the feathers from the other person. You’ve got all three of them having traumatic family experiences with death of families, either losing parents, losing siblings, possibly by your own hand…

[Eric laughs]

Rosie: … and losing parents by your own hand. They’ve all got kind of similar stories that are all connected to some aspect of the Hallows so it’s another link between the three, putting them as the three brothers…

Michael: Mhm.

Rosie: … in my kind of metaphorical view.

Eric: Wow. And Dumbledore is always compared to a phoenix, and it’s not just because he owns a phoenix or has a phoenix, but people… I think I remember – speculating before the books came out – people were like, “Is Dumbledore an Animagus phoenix?” People consistently say…

Rosie: It’s his Patronus.

Eric: His Patronus? Oh, is that confirmed? His Patronus is a phoenix?

Michael: Yeah. Yes, that is confirmed.

Rosie: Mhm.

Eric: Okay, there you go. And so his connection to the phoenix really also ties him into the other things that are happening, which is that the Priori Incantatum felt… or Harry felt he heard phoenix song during the Priori Incantatum

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: … which may have more to do with the fact that it came from wands whose core was a phoenix…

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: … but still, ultimately, it really ties together Voldemort with the only one he ever feared, with the only one who could destroy him. “Neither can live while the other… thing…” so…

Michael: [laughs] Prophecy!

[Rosie laughs]

Eric: Yeah, the three of them are really, really entwined. But… so the story with Priori Incantatum is that brother wands cannot function properly or will not function. They will not work properly against each other if forced to do battle with each other. One of them will make the other regurgitate past spells.

Michael: The other one will start throwing up.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Because the thought of fratricide is simply appalling.

Michael: … is appalling, yes. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: The funny thing, too, just to note – we’ll get into it more later – but of course, out of all of this discussion from these lines, the only thing in the movie we get is, “Priori Incantatum,” and nothing beyond.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: I just had to point that out.

Kevin: I have a quick question.

Eric: Yeah, go on.

Kevin: Okay, we know they cannot directly duel. That’s well established.

Eric: Mhm.

Kevin: … but I doubt you all have read The Dresden Files? Probably not. But you can’t directly kill someone with magic, but you can use a third-party medium as the intermediary. So could Voldemort or Harry, say, send a giant tree or rock or fire at them? Something that’s not pure and alloyed magic?

Michael: Mmm. I imagine they probably could? But that defies the rules of dueling…

Eric: Mmm.

Michael: … and Voldemort, I think, because he’s so crazy sociopathic… we see in that scene, he has this kind of bizarre need to conform to the rules, almost in a way to humiliate Harry…

Rosie: Mhm.

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: … so I don’t think… because Voldemort never cheats in his dueling. He’s bizarrely fair.

Rosie: Has to do it properly!

Eric: Except when he says, “Stun him!” and fifteen Death Eaters come on Harry.

Michael: [laughs] But I mean, most often, when he’s dueling Harry face to face, just him and Harry… the unfair aspect is of course that Harry is not as proficient in spells as Voldemort…

Rosie: Mhm.

Michael: … but I don’t think Voldemort really… I mean, even in Dumbledore and Voldemort’s duel, there is still this odd respect for, “We do not use outside factors. We strictly use what we can cast from our wands.” Like the only time Dumbledore uses something else in the Ministry is to enchant the statues to protect Harry, but he doesn’t use the statues really against Voldemort.

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: So I think that’s more to the respect of the dueling culture and wizarding culture, I guess. But I think you could. I mean, if Harry just Wingardium Leviosa‘d a tree on top of Voldemort.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: But that wouldn’t be any fun.

Eric: Or in the case of the LEGO games, just severely Aguamenti some grass…

Michael: Yes. [laughs]

Eric: … and it grows up into a bush and attacks him.

Michael: And then he’d throw it at him and tons of money would come spilling out.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Especially if you get one of the several score multipliers.

Michael: Yes.

Eric: My girlfriend loves that game.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Every time I go into the other room, she’s playing it.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: But… what was I going to say?

Michael: On to more serious matters… [laughs]

Eric: Yes.

Michael: Sirius matters. [laughs]

Eric: Back on to more Sirius, or Cedric matters…

Michael: Oho.

Eric: … Sirius says that Cedric was a ghost… or he asks this question: Who, or what exactly are these things that came out of the wand? And it’s not clear. Sirius calls him a ghost, but then Dumbledore stresses that they are not ghosts. He calls them shadows, or echoes. He actually calls them echoes first and then later says shadows…

Michael: Hmm.

Eric: For the wand, that these beings… and Harry says, “He asked me to take his body back and these people who came out of Voldemort’s wand spoke to me.”� And there is some stuff that’s interesting in this book about the quotes specifically that it’s questionable.

Michael: Well, I think… because we talked about this on a previous episode.

Eric: Mhm.

Michael: And the viewpoint I took and I feel it even more with this reread is that Dumbledore’s not telling the whole truth about what they were.

Rosie: Mhm.

Michael: Because I think that what Harry saw from Priori Incantatem, dare I say it, is pretty much what you get with the Resurrection Stone.

Eric: See, I wanted to compare those two, but I didn’t because the way Dumbledore shrugs it off here.

Michael: I think Dumbledore’s…

Eric: He says that they would have some of the essence…

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: … but he makes them sound like photographs.

Michael: Mhm. Yeah, he makes… the way he describes them sounds more a keen to what we get as a description of the moving portraits in that they’re literally just an imprint that have certain knowledge and that informs how they behave, but they can’t really go beyond that. And to me, it’s always been… I always felt that Dumbledore’s explanation devalues Harry’s experience in that respect because I remember just the first time reading this, the fact that Harry really does get to see and talk to his parents for the first time…

Eric: Yes.

Michael: … is just mind-blowing – was always mind-blowing to me reading – and it was such a dramatic and emotional moment and then Dumbledore’s just like, “It didn’t really mean anything.”� [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, well… okay, here’s the quote from the book and listeners at home, you can decide if this adequately fills the void in your heart from having seen his parents.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: “‘Diggory came back to life?’ said Sirius sharply. ‘No spell can reawaken the dead,’ said Dumbledore heavily. ‘All that would have happened is a kind of reverse echo, a shadow of the living Cedric would have emerged from the wand. Am I correct, Harry?’ ‘He spoke to me,’ Harry said. He was suddenly shaking again. ‘The ghost Cedric, or whatever was he was, spoke.’ ‘An echo,’ said Dumbledore, ‘which retained Cedric’s appearance and character. I am guessing other such forms appeared, less recent victims of Voldemort’s wand.'”� So he is downplaying…

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: … but it can’t just be their character, right? Can it? Because specifically, James said to – or Lily said to Harry, “Your father’s coming.”�

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: Or he said it the other way…

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: “Your mother’s coming next.”� Whatever it was based on that.

Michael: And the listeners have been talking about it on the site and like you said, we’ve already talked about this on the show, but I almost worry as far as me constantly going on about my views, I feel like I’m just being biased towards what I want from the text rather than what’s really there, but…

[Rosie laughs]

Michael: … I don’t know. I just feel when you factor in the Resurrection Stone and how it affects Dumbledore later and the temptation of the Resurrection Stone for him, I just wonder – and if you also factor in the temptations of the Mirror of Erised – I do wonder if Dumbledore isn’t being completely truthful because we already know now that he’s not being completely truthful about other things, certain gleams of triumph in somebody’s eyes. So…

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Michael: I just wonder. Unfortunately, there’s really not much in this point in the text to pull out other than speculate.

Eric: Well, there’s an even bigger revelation, I think, which is even more profound than whether these guys were ghosts or not.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: Or the spirits because well, would the spirits then be stuck in the wand the whole time after it killed them? Because I’ll just get on to what I’m going to say next, which is that the wand – in order for all of these creatures or beings, in order for all these people to crawl out of Voldemort’s wand, not just Bertha Jorkins, Frank Bryce, and Cedric who have been killed in this book, for Lily and James to also come out of that wand and these spells – the dueling of the wands is forcing them to regurgitate past spells – for Lily and James to come out means that is in fact Voldemort’s wand that he had the night he killed Lily and James.

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: There’s no other way for it to happen and so, the big question is, and this is a quote from a couple of chapters ago, “The Death Eaters,”� Voldemort describes himself as, “this pathetic being that couldn’t even carry a wand.”� He was so pathetic, he was barely alive, but he was alive. “It was life,” he says. If he could not carry a wand, how does Voldemort have his wand? Who got it? Who went and grabbed it from the wreckage…

Michael: [laughs] We discussed this on our previous episode.

Eric: … of the Potters’ house? But it’s… yeah.

Michael: This was answered by Rowling I believe in her interview with Melissa Anelli in 2007 right after Deathly Hallows came out. Don’t quote me on that, but I believe that was the interview, but she was asked, how did Voldemort get his wand? Because he couldn’t even hold one. And Rowling answered that Wormtail went to the Potters’ house after it was destroyed and got the wand in hopes that he could curry favor with Voldemort. Now, I mean, a lot of people are just… when they hear that explanation they are like, “Okay…” [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, it’s bad because where would he keep it for the 13 years when he was a Weasleys pet?

Michael and Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: And that gets into complicated stuff with Animagus and how that works.

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: But which she hasn’t…

Eric: Well, Jo has provided an answer, however lackluster it may appear to us.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: I won’t dwell on it. I’ll just be like, “That’s cool.”�

Michael: Yep. It’s like the thousand students at Hogwarts who are just like, “Uh-huh.”�

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Michael: And moving on.

Eric: Oh Fumblefore.

Michael: Fumblefore.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Eric: So Dumbledore seems to think that if the connection had been maintained, even more people would have shown up out of Voldemort’s wand. And that just really raises the question for me, are they spirits? These beings because really if it’s a regurgitation of spells, it really just should have been a bunch of death curses that shot out of the wand. [laughs]

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: Not necessarily…

Rosie: One of the shadows of the people that he killed, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, not the people who had been killed, not any reflection of them and so maybe it’s because the wand is extinguishing life that the imprint of the life it extinguished is in the wand, but it just seems weird that a wand would store any of that.

Michael: I think that’s the specific magic of Priori Incantatem. I almost wonder if you just did the regular old Priori Incantatem spell like Diggory does at the beginning of the book…

Eric: Mhm.

Michael: … on Harry’s wand, if… I don’t think an actual conscious living being would pop out. I think there would be some other kind of representation of Avada Kedavra because the reason that the souls come out is specifically to play a role in this duel.

Eric: Mhm. Well, they have agency.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: They’re the ones who say, “We’re going to distract him while you get away.”

Michael: Mhm. Yeah, and I don’t think if you just did a regular old Priori Incantatem that that would happen. I think it’s just a freak occurrence because this is a freak spell…

Rosie: Mhm.

Kevin: Yeah.

Michael: … that does not happen very often so…

Eric: Hmm. Okay. Well, as much as Harry regretted going into it, there’s a very brilliant piece of wording where it says that in telling the story, “Harry felt that a poison had been extracted from him,”� which is great. Story time is over, Harry is done telling the story.

Michael: [laughs] I just… sorry, I just have to point out, story time over!

[Michael and Rosie laughs]

Eric: Yeah, that’s in the… well, because even though this story has been lived before because we not only saw the chapter, but he had to tell these guys and it gets told later or what he experiences with Barty Crouch is told to Sirius, it’s a lot of reliving the same events.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: But it doesn’t get boring…

Michael: No.

Eric: … reading it in quite the way you would expect it to by now.

Michael: I… no wonder. I mean, no wonder though, that Rowling considered Goblet such a challenge because you do have all of these points where Harry has to keep continuously recounting his story and she has to keep it interesting for us.

Eric: Mhm.

Michael: And she does, so…

Eric: Yeah, she has different characters who can actually add new understanding…

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: … each and every time.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: So I think it’s just brilliant on that part and Dumbledore says to Harry in a non-patronizing way – I think he really does mean it – again, that Harry has done all that he can ask of him and he says to Harry that he’s faced a grown wizard’s burden and found himself equal to it and that he has now done and survived as much as the people who first faced Voldemort would do. And this is huge for Dumbledore to equate Harry to having the bravery and courage of the people who went up against him in the war last time, including Harry’s own parents.

Michael: Mhm. Yeah, no it’s… I think you’re right, Eric. I mean, Dumbledore’s always… I think when it comes to that, Dumbledore’s always being honest. Here’s one case where Dumbledore’s fully honest and not hiding anything.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Everybody remember this. Write this down. Tattoo it in yourselves.

Michael: [laughs] Praise.

Kevin: Do we…

Eric: The only time.

Kevin: … only see him lie that one time in Sorcerer’s/Philosopher’s Stone about the Mirror of Erised because…

Eric: What do you see? And he says, “Socks.”�

Michael: Like a flat-out lie.

Kevin: Yeah. All the other…

Rosie: Maybe he really did like socks.

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Michael: I don’t… I think it’s more… in the case of Dumbledore, there’s not so much lies, perhaps, as maybe truth by omission. There’s… he’s just not always telling the whole story.

Eric: Oh, yeah. Well, in the case of socks too or the Mirror of Erised, Harry even feels then that it’s not really the truth, but he is way too young to be questioning this much authority and Dumbledore has a way of finalizing the finality of his tone, says you can’t ask me that question again.

Michael: Yeah.

Rosie: Mhm.

Kevin: Was it one of you who said that when you did this chapter a couple of years ago for Sorcerer’s Stone

Eric: Oh no. Oh gosh, don’t hold this against me. What did I say?

Kevin: No, it’s hardly… it’s good! It’s good! It was one of you who said, “Harry, that’s a pretty impertinent question to ask an authority figure what’s your deepest, most…

[Eric laughs]

Kevin: … non-expressed desire in the whole, wide world? Yeah, come tell an eleven-year-old boy.”�

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: Well, it wouldn’t have been Eric or I because we weren’t on the show officially yet.

Eric: Oh, yeah.

Michael: But I remember that. That’s very good that you brought that up, Kevin because I remember that.

Eric: Well, it’s in the air of reciprocation because they’re equals. It’s like, “Show me yours, I’ll show you mine.”

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Like the Dark Mark and the blood thing in the movie.

Rosie: Mhm.

Eric: It’s really just about reciprocity and Dumbledore treats Harry like an eleven-year-old, which he is to be fair. But moving on. Harry finally makes it to the hospital ward, which is where Bill, Ron, Hermione, and Molly are waiting for him and Madame Pomfrey’s looking badgered and just the way that J.K. Rowling writes expressions on her all the time are constantly enjoyable. She has a harassed look because people have been wondering where Harry is. And Harry comes in and…

Michael: She probably gets asked that a lot. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. Where’s Harry? Why isn’t he here? He is the hero of this story after all. Hasn’t he been injured recently? How often do you see him?

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Eric: All that junk. But Dumbledore is able to put everybody at rest. He says, “Molly, no more questions. Harry needs his rest now.”� Basically he says, “I got everything I needed out of Harry and you guys can’t have anymore because he’s tired.”�

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Eric: “Sorry guys, I tuckered him out for you. Thanks. Bye, Harry.”� He does say that he will be back after he has spoken with Fudge, but that’s more of a checking up on, I’ll make sure you’re sleeping well, kind of thing, because he has Madam Pomfrey administer this potion, or she doesn’t administer it. If she administered it, the chapter would be over.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: But right here. But as it happens, Harry manages to take a few drops of what is supposed to be an entire vial. But Harry awakes shortly after the series of the first events because there’s arguing outside the corridor and even though his sleep was peaceful, it was very, very short-lived. McGonagall and Fudge are arguing and Harry’s never seen McGonagall lose control the way she does with Fudge, but they’re aruging about something and we find out what it is. Dumbledore comes in, he hears the argument. Dumbledore and Fudge have not talked yet, but what has happened is Fudge was grabbed by Snape and Snape, as he was told to, tells Fudge about Barty Crouch Jr., says, “We found the Death Eater responsible for these events.”� Fudge requests that a Dementor from Azkaban be summoned to his side in a way of protecting him as he goes into the castle. And this is a huge no-no for McGonagall. She says if Dumbledore were consulted, he never would have let a Dementor on these grounds. But Fudge says, “As Minister of Magic, it’s my right to have protection where I see fit.” So they go up to the tower and as soon as the door is opened, in almost a way that’s not controllable by Fudge, the Dementor goes straight over to Barty Crouch and administers the Dementor’s Kiss, sucking his soul out. Now, going into this chapter, I was going to suggest that Fudge already knew what to expect with Voldemort being returned, and as part of this vindictive plan to completely deny the existence of Voldemort, he purposefully brought the Dementor to the room. But now I’m thinking, after reading this chapter again, that Fudge really is just that inept and almost not realizing the full weight of what he was doing, allowed the Dementor to see the prisoner. The remaining burning question I have, though is with this Dementor and sucking Barty Crouch’s soul out, we can play this one of two ways: either the Dementor was so hungry for Barty that maybe he felt some retribution because Barty Crouch was supposed to have died and didn’t, that he as an Azkaban guard felt some need to purge Barty from this world; or secondarily, that as an ally to Voldemort he was silencing Barty from ever speaking again and revealing his crimes and the intricate secrets of Voldemort’s web.

Michael: Hmm. I almost think that’s like… because Dumbledore states later in this chapter, of course, about how the Dementors will behave once Voldemort kind of addresses them and what not. I don’t think that… I wouldn’t say that the Dementors are that aware yet of the plan…

Eric: Mhm.

Michael: … just because they haven’t been informed as far as we know.

Rosie: Mhm.

Michael: There’s no textual evidence as far as I recall. I think that it was literally just like, “Woo-hoo! Soul nearby, defenseless soul… time for dinner.”

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Michael: And the thing I think that surprises me is that McGonagall could probably cast a proficient Expecto Patronum. Why didn’t she just Patronus it out of the way?

Eric: Well, can she? Because…

Rosie: I imagine it just happened too quickly.

Michael: It was just too fast.

Eric: As soon as the door opened, it was… [Dementor soul-sucking sound effect]

Michael: Ooh! That’s awful.

Eric: I think it’s possible McGonagall was so in shock that she failed to act. But also, I would consider the idea that she maybe didn’t know how to cast a Patronus.

Michael: Oh no, she does…

Eric: Clearly, maybe the next year it becomes a bigger deal when they communicate that way, but…

Michael: Well, because she was in the…

Rosie: I thought Minerva was in the Order the first time around.

Michael: Yeah, she was in the original Order, wasn’t she?

Eric: If she was, does that mean she knows the Patronus? I know that it’s…

Rosie: That’s how the Order communicate with each other through the Patronuses.

Michael: If she was, she would have had to know, so…

Eric: So she failed to act. And McGonagall is the one who was guarding Barty. And since it was Snape who got him, then it makes sense that the Dementor would have actually gone past Minerva physically to get to Barty.

Michael: [as a Dementor] “Excuse me, ma’am.”

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Said Jim the Dementor.

Eric: So guys, the worst has happened. We know that Barty Crouch will never be able to testify again. Much like the situation at the end of last year with Pettigrew’s escape and the fact that Remus would be heavily doubted, there appears to be an exact same situation happening where nobody is going to believe. And the person who foremost could have brought to light these accusations and the fact that Voldemort is alive and around has now been extinguished. A big argument happens with Fudge and Dumbledore – it’s pages and pages long and we won’t get too much into it – but we talked before about Dumbledore having a plan. And it becomes very clear to everybody in the room, which is the other thing – this is not a private conversation. Fudge disregards everything that Dumbledore says Crouch said. McGonagall and Snape, who were both there and also heard Crouch’s story, are also disbelieved by Fudge. Dumbledore says, “Here’s what you have to do, Minister.” He says, “These are two things that you need to do.” And he actually lists them. The first thing is get the Dementors out of Azkaban, and he makes a really compelling argument here. He says that, “Voldemort can offer them work that is much more suited to their powers and pleasures than you can.” And Fudge doesn’t even know what to say to this, he’s like, “That kind of makes sense, but I’m ignorant. Rrrrr.” And the second thing that Dumbledore suggests is to send envoys to the giants, and now Fudge just takes the mickey out of him. He’s just like, “Oh, envoys to the giants! Next thing you know you’ll be having me wear no clothes to my job! You’re absurd! Ahh! Dumbledore!”

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Eric: Completely blown out of proportion, completely ridiculous. Fudge is being told what… everything that we know about Fudge from the supplementary texts about Fudge sending owls to Dumbledore to ask him what to do, all this backstory that we know from either future books or the supplemental texts really comes to a head here where Dumbledore is finally telling him. He says, “This is what you need to do in order to be remembered the right way in history, because if you don’t, you’re going to be remembered as the man who stood aside.” And there is the chapter’s sake, “Parting of the Ways,” happens between Fudge and Dumbledore here because Fudge sees them as being on opposing sides. And all Dumbledore wants, all Dumbledore wants at all is for people to be notified and measures to be put in place to prevent Voldemort from gaining the same amount of power that he had last time. And I don’t think what Dumbledore’s asking for is that unreasonable.

Michael: Oh no, it’s not at all, it’s just that, as Dumbledore says, Fudge is too in love with his office.

Rosie: Yep.

Michael: It’s not that… I think Fudge is conscious that these are very good ideas, but he doesn’t want to be… he doesn’t want Dumbledore to get the credit for them. And Dumbledore’s even saying, “Don’t give me credit, take it all for yourself, just make sure everybody’s safe.” And Fudge is like, “You want my office! Oh my God! I’m going to go to work with no clothes tomorrow because of you!” …

[Rosie laughs]

Michael: … as you said, Eric. And Fudge just isn’t being rational, is all. He’s kind of gone crazy. And the funny thing is, having the first few reads when I was younger – Harry even notes it in the text – is that Fudge was kind of one of the ancillary paternal figures. He wasn’t a direct father figure, but he was the one who would swoop in and be like, “Oh, never mind, Harry, you’re absolved from the law.”

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: And now that’s not the case at all anymore. But the funny thing is, rereading it this time you really see that Fudge was this way all along. He would always do… and this is something I’ve kind of seen that people do in life, but it is really the choice, as Dumbledore is wont to say, between doing something that’s easy and something that’s right. Because easy – the thing that’s right is very rarely the easiest thing to do. I think Rowling has kind of tapped into that fact in these books, and Fudge is not one to take the hard way. He’s completely going on the basis of “Voldemort can’t be back because if he does, that means a heck of a lot of work for all of us.”

Eric: But this work, in the end I think the ends would justify the means – I mean the lives that are saved. And I know nobody’s arguing this point, but just the fact that so few people would have died had Fudge been… it makes me question whether or not they should have tried harder and not in words. But even though they don’t have Barty Crouch anymore to testify, each of the people in the room, Harry and Snape and Dumbledore and McGonagall, all have identical memories. Why didn’t Dumbledore just pull out his Pensieve? I imagine he carries it with him; it’s a Port-a-Pensieve, it’s useful for more than one thing…

[Kevin, Michael, and Rosie laugh]

Eric: Why doesn’t he just pull it out? Honestly, though! We know from Book 6 that memories can be tampered with, or whatever BS. But if the four of them just stood right there and pulled their memory out of their head and showed it in the non-judgmental, non-changing, the most definitive – what’s the word? – non-subjective way possible…

Michael: Objective.

Kevin: Objective?

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: The most objective? Yeah – form of the Pensieve, Fudge would have seen for his own eyes Barty Crouch giving his whole tell-all thing. And if he claimed that there had somehow been enough time for one of those guys to manipulate their memory, he could just as easily take the remaining three memories of the three people that are also in the room who also saw that happen. I mean, that is definitive. You can still prove beyond any doubt that what happened actually happened.

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: And even if you…

Rosie: He’s sticking his head in the sand, because if it’s true – you kind of have to expect that maybe he does believe it at some level, he just doesn’t want to – he’s basically going to be the Minister of Magic that let Voldemort come back for a second time. So he’s avoiding that situation more than he’s avoiding anything else.

Kevin: Yeah.

Eric: I just think somebody should point that out to him, that he’s already the Minister of Magic who allowed Voldemort to come back. That’s already…

Rosie: Ah, but nobody knows that yet, and no one will know if we can prove… if we can get rid of the Barty Crouch situation.

Michael: I think that as far as the memories go, we essentially get that with Snape rolling up his sleeve and saying, “There.”

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: “There’s the Dark Mark. Here’s definitive proof. Here I am explaining to you the inner workings of Voldemort’s circle.” This is definitive proof.

Rosie: And that is such a key Snape moment that everyone always forgets.

Eric: That’s a huge Snape moment. He really – literally – goes out on a limb.

[Kevin laughs] /p>

Michael: Mhm.

Rosie: Everyone is always like, “Everyone always likes Snape because he loved Lily, blah, blah, blah.” But no. Snape is awesome because of moments like this one. He literally sacrifices himself to prove it at this moment.

Kevin: Snape has some redeeming qualities, but he still has this weird, obsessive love for a woman who never loved him in that way and after a couple of years didn’t even like him as a friend…

[Eric laughs]

Kevin: … and also, he kept it up for decades. And if I was Lily and that happened to me, I wouldn’t think, “Oh, how cute”…

[Eric laughs]

Kevin: I would think, “Do we have a stalking database?”

Eric: Kevin, have you seen Lily’s eyes? You would stalk her, too.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: I would stalk her, too.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Lily’s eyes, man. That’s all, man.

Rosie: When have we ever seen him stalk her? He doesn’t do anything. We never seen him act on anything.

Eric: I think…

Rosie: It’s all fanon.

Eric: I think it’s all fanfic and a number of other sources that are making it look bad.

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: I did like that moment, though, when – because I picked up on it more, just knowing what we know now than before – that moment when Harry is saying, “I know who Death Eaters – I know Death Eater names. I’m going to list them for you right now.” And Snape kind of looks at him like, “Mmm.”

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Michael: But then he looks away again. There is a lot of…

Rosie: “Who, me?”

Michael: … lovely, kind of hint drops in here about Snape.

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: And try as we might to say there are so many ways they could have proven it to Fudge, at the end of the day it serves the story’s purposes that Fudge just doesn’t want to believe.

Kevin: Yeah.

Eric: He talks about Harry always having these cockamamie stories at the end of the year, that they’re getting more and more ridiculous, all this other crap. It’s just not a good thing. And Fudge – he turns to leave, and then stops and then turns around and gives Harry a thousand Galleons.

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Michael: Yeah, and he does it in a really passive-aggressive horrible way.

Eric: He’s normally…

Rosie: He does it in a very British way, come on.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Please illustrate how it’s a very British way, Rosie.

Rosie: Just the whole passive-aggressive thing, it’s how we do it.

[Eric, Kevin, and Michael laugh]

Eric: That’s how you give people money?

[Rosie laugh]

Eric: When people win the lottery, you’re just like, “Well, we’d show this on TV, but events…”

Rosie: We have to do it in a very… we have to do it in the proper way. I mean, he won, therefore, he must receive the winnings, even if it’s in a bad situation. Everything has to be done in a very formal way. [laughs]

Michael: Yeah, I just love that.

Eric: Okay.

[Rosie laughs]

Michael: “There would have been a ceremony, but under the circumstances…”

Rosie: Yeah.

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Michael: It’s just like, “You ruined my party.” [laughs]

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: “So, bye!”

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Eric: A lot of things happen in the next couple of seconds. Dumbledore, again, being the Dumbledore getting stuff done, he introduces Sirius Black to Molly, and so much in this chapter I want to say foreshadows the relationships that happen in Book 5…

Rosie: Yeah.

Eric: … which is really exciting. Molly is shocked, but they agree to work together. Sirius and Snape uneasily agree to work together, and they shake each other’s hand because that pleases Dumbledore.

Michael: Bad idea.

Eric: Shake it, shake it, shake it!

Michael: Bad idea bear!

Eric: One of them is carrying a buzzer. Yeah.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: But they uneasily agree to work [with] each other. The big, most pressing matter is that Arthur Weasley needs to be notified, and anybody who can covertly be informed and can be trusted to keep the secret but spread the word to the people who could keep the secret that Voldemort is back at the Ministry need to be told. And so Bill agrees to Apparate to Arthur and tell Arthur to tell everybody at the Ministry. So Dumbledore… it’s very important that he not be seen to interfere, especially after the argument that he just had with Fudge. But still, people need to know, and this is something that you’ve got to admire about Dumbledore that he is really making this happen. Now also, Sirius has to be sent away to go find Remus Lupin, which… we asked ages ago, “Where has Remus been all this time?” But Remus needs to be informed that Voldemort has returned, as does Arabella Figg and the old crowd. We know who they are…

Michael: That…

Eric: … in the next book.

Michael: Well, hey, this was… I remember the Figg thing – Arabella Figg – everybody was like, “Is that his neighbor?” [laughs]

Rosie: Yeah! And it was!

Michael: And it was! That was a big thing… because, of course, thinking back to this first release, wasn’t it… was it two or three years before we got the next book? It was a…

Eric: Three.

Rosie: Yeah, this was the big gap.

Michael: This was the big gap.

Eric: Yeah.

Rosie: This was actually the gap that I joined MuggleNet for the first time because I got frustrated wanting more story, and there wasn’t any.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Michael: Well, yeah, there was definitely a peak in fan fiction around this point.

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: But this is the gap…

Rosie: Well, that’s because this is the gap that MuggleNet Fan Fiction was actually born in.

Eric: Mhm.

Michael: Yeah.

Rosie: This is when it was created for the first time.

Eric: This is the gap I joined in.

Kevin: Is there still fan fiction a lot, being… now?

Rosie: Yeah, fanfic is still…

Michael: It’s still there.

Rosie: It’s not quite as big as it was, sadly. Come back to fanfic, guys! [laughs]

Michael: Yeah, you’ve got Fantastic Beasts coming up. There’s so much!

Rosie: That’s true!

Michael: So much on offer. But yeah, no, this was… these lines just here, one right after the other… just so many mysteries and exciting things being set up here.

Rosie: Uh-huh.

Michael: So much…

Rosie: And it happens so quickly.

Michael: Yeah.

Rosie: It’s ridiculous.

Michael: So much good payoff to look forward to later.

Rosie: Yeah.

Michael: In these remaining three years that we have to wait.

Eric: Well, it’s funny because Arabella Figg, right? We’re just on this name alone. People marinated for three years and were like, “That has to be Mrs. Figg, the neighbor!”

Michael and Rosie: Mhm.

Eric: And everybody was so rewarded, but then in the first… in the opening chapters of Order of the Phoenix, Jo did it again with that Evans kid.

Michael: Oh, yeah.

Rosie: Yeah!

Michael: Oh, God!

Eric: I punched out Mark Evans a couple of weeks ago, Dudley.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: And Jo totally resented that and was like, “People are saying that he’s related to Harry because of Lily Evans, and it was just the worst name choice ever!” And I’m like, “Really?”

[Rosie laughs]

Eric: “You’re not conscious of what you just did? Because you did it with Figg; you did it with mentioning…” She name dropped Sirius Black in the first book, for crying out loud.

Rosie: I think she just forgot that she’d given Lily the surname Evans. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah. But really just about these ending moments. Madam Pomfrey is sent to get Winky, which I thought was a good move for Dumbledore, but [laughs] he has Madam Pomfrey send her to the kitchens, and I was thinking, “He’s telling her to get back to work.” But he’s not. It’s because Dobby is there, and she should be taken care of by her own kind best.

Michael: Yeah, apparently this past hour, she’s just been sitting in Moody’s office just crying. [laughs] Poor thing.

Rosie: Aww. Poor Winky.

Michael: Nobody thought to do anything, so at least they’re dealing with that finally.

Eric: Yeah. Snape, in addition to putting his arm out there in front of Fudge, now is told, “You know what to do,” and Snape agrees.

Michael: Ooh.

Eric: And he leaves right after Sirius does. Snape, we know from the future, is now going to Voldemort…

Rosie: Yep.

Eric: … and he’s going to make a convincing argument as to why he did not show up immediately with the other Death Eaters.

Rosie: But for three years the fandom was going, “What’s he going to do? What does he know what to do? What’s he doing?”

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Michael: Yeah, he must have had to have prepared a PowerPoint presentation for Voldemort to convince him after that length of time of not showing up right away.

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Rosie: Uh-huh.

Michael: So whatever he did, it must have been impressive.

Kevin: Got lost.

Michael: Got lost. [laughs]

Eric: [laughs] Harry does get a hug from Molly, which is a very motherly hug. Actually, it’s heartbreaking to read in the book because it [says] “as if he had a mother.”

Eric: He never knew that feeling. It was crazy.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: But almost taking you out of this really brilliant motherly moment in the corner – this is a quote – there was a “loud slamming noise. Hermione was standing by the window. She was holding something tight in her hand.” And she says, “Sorry.”

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Thus concludes Chapter… what is this?

[Rosie laughs]

Eric: Thus concludes Chapter 36 of Goblet of Fire.

Michael: All right, so we’re going to wrap up this episode with the usual Podcast Question of the Week. This week we’re asking about Rita Skeeter. The question is, “Noting that Rita Skeeter was present during the entire debate in the hospital wing, if Hermione had not caught her, what actions would Rita have taken following the evening? What side of the story would she report to the wizarding world? Would she side with the Ministry, and continue to slander Dumbledore [and] Harry, or would she make the career-changing move to publish the story behind the return of Lord Voldemort, for top dollar sales? How would the wizarding world as a whole change from her actions?” So head to the main Alohomora! site to answer that Podcast Question of the Week. Let us know what you think Rita would do. What would Rita do?

[Kevin and Michael laugh]

Eric: Those bracelets available now on Alohomora!

[Kevin and Michael laugh]

Michael: Along with Fumbledofr T-shirts.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Rosie: And all that remains to be done is to thank our guest for the week. Thank you so much, Kevin. We hope that you’ve enjoyed your time on the show.

Kevin: This has been simply and utterly phenomenal and superlative and the highest.

Rosie: Brilliant.

Eric: That was beautiful.

Michael: Wow.

Rosie: We can’t say anything better than that.

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Michael: Highest compliments.

Rosie: Thank you so much.

Eric: If you would like to have a superlative experience as Kevin did on our show, you should head over to our website, which is, and check out the Be on the Show page, which has all of the information that you need. Certain requirements are set in stone, non-negotiable: You need some headphones and other stuff. All details on that webpage, Click on “Be on the Show.”

Michael: Well, unlike the Minister of Magic, we are a lot easier to communicate with.

[Eric, Kevin, and Rosie laugh]

Michael: And we have a lot of different ways to be reached. None by owl, but our Twitter handle is @AlohomoraMN, where you can tweet us. You can also talk to us on Facebook: We now have a Tumblr account: mnalohomorapodcast. Our phone number: 206-GO-ALBUS. In number form, that is 206-462-5287, where you can call us and leave us a message. You can subscribe and leave us a review in iTunes if you so please, and let us know how we’re doing. We also now have a Snapchat, so please follow us on Snapchat at mn_alohomora, where our recent guest Michael Platco does some amazing Snapchats for all of our chapters.

Eric: He’s amazing.

Michael: He’s mind-blowing with his artwork. And lastly, we have an Audioboo, as you’ve heard on the show today, where you can leave us a message directly on, and it could be played on the show. It’s free, and all you need is a microphone. So make sure [to] get in touch with us since the Ministry isn’t answering your owls.

Rosie: [laughs] I actually saw earlier that our Audioboo has had over 130,000 listens, so all of your messages… even if they don’t get shown on the show – we approve them, and they go onto our Audioboo for you guys to listen to, so make sure you check those out as well.

Kevin: Wow.

Michael: And we do listen to them.

Rosie: Even if you’re not sending them to us.

Michael: We listen to them, and we love them all.

Rosie: We do. And don’t forget our store as well, where you can buy all of fantastic T-shirts, including perhaps the Fumbledofr one…

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Rosie: … which have short and long sleeves. We have tote bags, sweatshirts, flip-flops, water bottles, travel mugs, and much more coming soon. There are over 80 products to choose from, and we also have ringtones of our theme tune, which are free and available on the website.

Eric: There is also the Alohomora! app. It is available seemingly worldwide. Prices vary. On that application, you can find transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs… but yes, Michael, we look forward to seeing what you surprise us with this week on the Alohomora! app special content.

Michael: [laughs] But for now, we are all going to go take our sleeping draughts, especially Rosie because it’s late where she is. [laughs] So…

Rosie: It is.

Eric: [in a childish voice] How late is it?

[Michael laughs]

Rosie: It’s coming up to midnight now.

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Eric: Woo!

Kevin: Oh, gosh.

Michael: So time for a good dreamless sleep. But thank you for listening to this episode of Alohomora!

[Show music begins]

Michael: I’m Michael Harle.

Eric: I’m Eric Scull.

Rosie: And I’m Rosie Morris. Thank you for listening to Episode 74 of Alohomora!

Eric: Open the Fumbledofr.

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Michael: I love Fumbledofr.

[Show music continues]

Rosie: I feel like we should explain the Fumbledofr thing because I’m not entirely sure that we said it in the episode. [laughs]

Michael: [laughs] Yeah, we didn’t actually say.

Eric: I got the recording of it. I can play that at the end.

Michael: Oh, you should. That’ll be our little blooper-y thing.

Rosie: Good. Okay.

Michael: Eric, what did you type these notes on? [laughs]

Eric: Oh God, don’t read them please.

[Michael and Rosie laugh]

Michael: It was Dumbledore and it was like “Fumbledofr.” [laughs]

Eric: Fumbledofr.

Michael: Fumbledofr.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I began having to go through the book on audiobook while I was in my travels today and write my notes down that way.

Michael: Hmm.

Eric: Perhaps it’s better this way, but…

Rosie: It’s all right, it just looks like you wrote it in Welsh or something.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yes, Rosie, I wrote it in Welsh.

[Eric and Rosie laugh]

Eric: That’s what I’m going to tell everybody and then I’ll look that much cooler.

Rosie: I like Hafrid. Can he just be… we’ll rename him Hafrid from now on.

Eric: Hafrid?

Michael: Hafrid, yeah.

Eric: That’s funny.

Rosie: [as Hermione] Everything is going to change now, isn’t it?