Transcript – Episode 161
[Show music begins]
Michael Harle: This is Episode 161 of Alohomora! for October 24, 2015.
[Show music continues]
Michael: Hello listeners, and welcome to another episode of Alohomora!, MuggleNet.com’s global reread of the Harry Potter series. I’m Michael Harle.
Kristen Keys: I’m Kristen Keys.
Alison Siggard: And I’m Alison Siggard. And our guest this week is Hannah. Hi, Hannah!
Hannah Boehmer: Hi!
Alison: Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Hannah: Okay. So I am a Gryffindor and…
Michael: Ooh!
Hannah: Yeah! [laughs] All right!
Michael: Nice!
Hannah: And I started reading the books… I think when the first three were out I was probably in fifth grade or something and I’m sure my parents heard on NPR, “Your child needs to read this book,” so…
[Everyone laughs]
Hannah: That’s kind of how it all started, and of course I read them over and over again and loved the movies when they came out, but it really resurged… I never knew about any of the fandom stuff happening online, but when I was in grad school, and this is the days of Pandora… I make it sound like it was so long ago. It was three years ago. But this is where Pandora, you could only use 40 hours in a month, and when you’re in studio all day, that goes by in a week. So I needed something to listen to, and one of my friends was like, “The Harry Potter audiobooks!” So I got the Jim Dale ones and just fell in love all over again, and I continued to listen to them during studio and I listen to them at work now, my co-workers make fun of me but that’s okay, so yeah! And when my boyfriend heard that I had been invited to be on the podcast, he was like, “Now, you’re going to be a super Harry Potter nerd!” and I was like, “Babe, I’m pretty sure I already am.”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Well yeah, gee, for somebody who wasn’t too aware of the online fandom, this is a pretty big step from that, isn’t it?
Hannah: I know, I’m kind of like, “Wow, they really… me? Are you sure?” But yeah!
Michael: Well, you were a good pick. You were an excellent pick. Listeners, Hannah wrote us a poem and everything for her test recording.
Hannah: And now I regret everything.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: We’re totally putting that poem at the end of the episode. She also intro-ed her test recording by saying, “Can you all see me? Can you all hear me?” So you know she is legit.
Alison: Well listeners, we just want to remind you before we get off and running that this week, we will be reading Chapter 11 of Deathly Hallows, “The Bribe.” So make sure you read it, because this is a very important chapter and we will be having lots of good discussion.
Kristen: But before we go into this week’s chapter, let’s review some of your comments from last week. Our first comment comes from Rose Lumos and they say,
“I have two points about Sirius and the letter: First, I think the reason Sirius never told Harry about the letter is because, honestly, they didn’t have as great as a relationship as Harry thinks they did. Almost every conversation they had between GoF and OotP was about Harry and whatever immediate danger he was in. There was a lot of talk about the Triwizard Tournament, the DA, and about the war, but they never learn much about each other. Think of all the ‘normal’ teenage things Harry does in those two books; he has to ask a girl to be his date to the Yule Ball, he kisses Cho and goes on a date with her, and he has little fights here and there with his friends. Yet, as far as we know, he never discusses any of these things with Sirius. That being said, we never hear much about what Sirius is going through as he hides out from the Ministry or helps out in the Order. Harry and Sirius always talked about the ‘current events’ of the day but besides the one conversation about Snape’s memory, they never really have a heart to heart conversation. That being said, where in the world did this letter actually come from? Sirius left his house as a teenager and we assume he hadn’t returned until the summer Voldemort returns, when the Order is re-formed. I assume Sirius had his own place as an adult, but once he went to Azkaban he presumably lost everything. I’m betting the dementors don’t let you bring anything in. So where did he get the letter from? Did he always have it with him? Did someone (maybe Lupin) hold on to it? Did he retrieve it from his last living place? Seriously, how did it end up in Grimmauld Place? I guess it’s the same mystery as how Sirius had his wand.”
What do you guys think about that?
Alison: I’ve never thought about that, but I mean, yeah. Where did it come from? [laughs]
Kristen: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.
Alison: I would probably say… it just doesn’t seem like it would be legal to just have everything, all of your possessions, taken away just because you went to Azkaban.
Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: So I’d say that it had to be somewhere.
Hannah: There’s a little box of Sirius’s belongings that the Ministry had. [laughs]
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: And do you think they gave that… I know some commenters were saying maybe, what you guys are saying along the lines of the Ministry taking those belongings and then giving them to the family.
Alison and Hannah: Maybe.
Kristen: But I feel like his mother would have thrown them away. You know?
Alison: Oh, yeah. Definitely.
Kristen: Yeah, that’s the way… yeah.
Alison: So I don’t know, maybe he had them somewhere and he went and picked them up when he got out? Or maybe Dumbledore brought them back for him.
Hannah: Yeah. I don’t know. I’ve never thought about that.
Kristen: Maybe he… well, no. And he couldn’t really hide them anywhere else. So I thought that was a pretty interesting comment, because I never picked up on…
Hannah: Yeah.
Kristen: … oh wait, how did that letter…
Michael: I’m still… because I think if Kat was here, she’d love this comment. Especially the first part, the idea that Sirius and Harry don’t really have as good relationship as maybe we all maybe dream up in our heads.
Hannah: Mhm.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: But I still… and you know, I guess… yeah, there is a larger gap, an explanation gap, a plot hole for why that letter is where it is. But I still… and maybe it’s because of distance and time, but I just am so boggled that Sirius has no idea that this letter exists and wouldn’t show it to Harry. Even with their strained relationship at the time…
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: … everybody’s just… the thing that I always think about is that everybody is so interested to show Harry everything that exists, that’s left of Lily.
[Alison laughs]
Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: “Oh, here’s a picture of Lily. Oh, here’s a hair that Lily let me keep.”
[Kristen laughs]
Michael: “Oh, here’s Lily’s eyelash…”
Kristen: That’s what Snape did.
[Alison laughs]
Kristen: “I have some of Lily’s hair.”
Michael: Everything from the Lily and James left behind.
Alison: Maybe he just forgot about it.
Michael: Well, I’m assuming that has to be it. It’s just, that makes the most sense, is that it just faded with time.
Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: Isn’t it tucked in a book too? So maybe… yeah. Or…
Michael: Well, yeah.
Alison: … I guess we don’t know where it originally was.
Michael: Originally was. Yeah.
Kristen: And our next comment comes from Reluctant Ravenclaw and they say,
“Hi guys, I’m not sure if anyone has brought it up yet, but I did notice a little something in the chapter I thought was worth pointing out. When Harry first notices the sign on Regulus’s door, it is described as ‘a pompous little sign, neatly lettered by hand, the sort of thing Percy Weasley might have stuck on his bedroom door…’ I thought the connection between Regulus and Percy is interesting. In this chapter we learn that there is a lot more to Regulus than first meets the eye, and he definitely wasn’t the person that Sirius described him as in OotP. Could this be foreshadowing about Percy, that he won’t end up being what his brothers think him to be at this point, and will instead make the decision to come to the ‘light side’ like Regulus? I’m sure there are many more comparisons that can be drawn between the two characters, like their initial high ambition and aspirations (Percy to rise to the top of the ministry, and Regulus to serve the Dark Lord) but these were the most striking to me. I’d love to know what you guys think! (PS I’ve been listening since the very first episode and am a long time lurker, first time commenter!)”
So thank you for commenting.
Michael: Yay.
Alison: Yeah, welcome.
Michael: We always love first time commenters.
Alison: Also, a really great comment.
Kristen: Yes.
Alison: A really interesting comparison that I’d never thought of. I mean, Percy and Regulus, even where they fall in their families, you know? Obviously being younger, almost overlooked brothers, I feel like Regulus would have been a little bit… because Sirius was such a trouble-maker in that family, that Regulus would be a little bit overlooked, and then, I guess, with Percy being sandwiched between Bill and Charlie and the twins… very interesting. I like that comparison. Because also…
Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: … they both redeem themselves in the end. I like it.
Kristen: But I still hate Percy.
Alison: Oh.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: [unintelligible]
Hannah: I’m not a Percy…
Kristen: Later chapters.
Hannah: … apologist at all, but I do love how he kind of turns it around… and thinking that Regulus did the same thing and that maybe this is foreshadowing, that’s a really cool thing to pick up on.
Kristen: Yeah, no, I really like this comment.
Michael: We talked last week actually about when Harry finds the photograph, and how there’s a weird moment where he actually finds a point of comparison between Lupin and Pettigrew, and we… I’m just thinking there’s… this book there are a lot of – perhaps more than any of the others – character comparisons going on to clue us in or give us hints about how people are going to behave. I think Rowling does do that on purpose, I think especially in this case. But yeah, that’s… I think it’s because at this point in Deathly Hallows she can afford to do comparisons like that because we know all these characters so well now.
Alison: Yeah.
Hannah: Yeah, that’s true.
Michael: Comparing to Percy wouldn’t mean anything very early on in the series, but comparing somebody to Percy now, that carries a lot of weight to it.
Hannah: Yeah, that’s way more loaded now that we…
Michael: Yeah.
Hannah: … are mad at Percy.
Alison: Definitely.
Michael: Yes, absolutely. And in a way… we get a little bit of build-up that we’re not really supposed to think very much of Regulus anyway, thanks to Sirius. So yeah, there’s definitely already been that build-up of a comparison.
Kristen: This last comment comes from Roonil Wazlib:
“Could Dumbledore have let such things happen? Had he been like Dudley, content to watch neglect and abuse as long as it did not affect him?” (p177 in paperback edition)I found this line in the text so striking when I read it this time around. Are there actually any similarities between Dumbledore and Dudley? Could Dudley have forced Vernon and Petunia to change their behavior towards Harry? Also, is this the only time that Harry actually uses the word abuse to describe what happened to him? We always hear him say things like, the Dursleys don’t like me, they don’t care what happens to me, etc. It’s interesting to hear him label it specifically as abuse now that he’s finally, permanently away from the Dursleys, and only after he’s heard about another person (Ariana) who may have had similar experiences.”
Michael: Oh, snap. If only Noah was here.
Hannah: Wow.
Michael: This is the line of narration that Noah has been waiting for since Sorcerer’s Stone. [laughs]
Alison: Okay. Wow. That’s another one. Yeah.
Hannah: That’s heavy. That is real heavy.
Alison Yeah.
Michael: Oh, this is heavy, Doc.
Kristen: I was thinking the same thing.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: We had to get one Back to the Future reference in there.
Kristen: I know.
Kristen: I was going to say, I [unintelligible] 20 times last night.
Alison: This is fascinating. I think it goes to that hidden parallels thing where we’ve just kind of found out the truth about Dudley, and soon we’ll find out a little bit more about the truth about Dumbledore and his situation. Not saying that’s fine, the Dursley’s situation is fine because it’s not, but interesting that she would compare those two when we get some pretty big reveals about both of them in this book.
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: Well, isn’t perhaps isn’t the comparison of characters not just good for foreshadowing, but also good for red herrings and misdirection.
Alison: Oh, definitely.
Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Michael: Because I think… I mean, in a way, it’s kind of the same and it’s kind of different. I think the thing that’s similar is that Dudley in the end reveals himself to be more complicated than Harry always assumed him to be.
Alison and Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: I think the unfortunate thing – and we’ve discussed this already – but the unfortunate thing about Dudley and his complicated nature is that it is not really explored. It’s just, [as Dudley] “Oh, by the way, I’m actually really layered, like an onion. Okay, bye.”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: That is Dudley’s exit. [as Dudley] “I have hidden layers, but you never asked.”
Kristen: Nope.
Michael: Yeah, so I’m going. But Dumbledore, on the other hand, of course, not only do we get Dumbledore’s perspective, we’re going to get multiple perspectives from a lot of different characters about Dumbledore, throughout the book. So Dumbledore is going to at least be explored more, and I do think there are some pretty stark differences in the situations between the two. I think Dumbledore had a more complicated family life than Dudley did.
Alison: Oh, definitely.
Kristen: Yeah.
Hannah: Mhm. But I think it is interesting that at this point, where Harry is doubting Dumbledore with all the stuff that he just heard, and then to add another thing onto it? Oh no, is he actually as terrible as Dudley? I don’t know.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Well, Harry… that is a very large accusation, that Dumbledore was content to watch abuse, if it didn’t bother him. That is pretty… and that, I think, does go, that takes Harry to an extreme as far as his beliefs about Dumbledore, because I think Harry knows that that is not true.
Alison: Yeah. Mhm.
Michael: Dumbledore… the thing that tortures Dumbledore the most, of course, as we know, is that his family was broken apart, through the death of Ariana, and that he has to witness that when he drinks Voldemort’s potion and whatnot. I think Harry knows better than to think that. I think that is taking that to a bit of an extreme. Rita Skeeter got to him.
Kristen: And what about the abuse? Is this the first time he is actually saying that it is abuse?
Michael: I think it is.
Hannah: I think so.
Michael: Well yeah, I almost feel like, as far as our close reading of it, if he had said it before, we would have noticed it.
Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: I think the closest we’ve got before is throwing a frying pan or something, right?
Michael: Yeah, in Chamber of Secrets, Aunt Petunia tries to hit him with a frying pan.
Hannah: Which is terrifying, if you think about it.
Michael: Yeah, we still don’t understand how anybody justified that, back in that discussion.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: “Well, that is not abuse, because she missed!” That is not the point! [laughs]
Kristen: There are all kinds of abuse.
Alison: I wonder, though, because you can read… I’m playing devil’s advocate here.
Michael: Good, okay. Good.
Alison: You can read this line… It is a bit ambiguous where it says, “Had he been like Dudley, content to watch neglect and abuse as long as it didn’t affect him.” You could say that the neglect and abuse was more focused on the article that Harry had just read about Ariana, than more of a direct comparison to the Dursleys’ treatment of Harry.
Michael: Oh, see, I don’t think you can read it that other way, because it is essentially saying Dudley witnessed abuse by his parents on Harry. Right?
Hannah: Yeah, it is not Dudley begin accused of the abuse.
Kristen: That is the way I saw it. Yeah, he is watching somebody else being abused.
Alison: No, definitely.
Michael: Well yeah, and by being, watching the abuse… there is an idea out there that if you aren’t speaking up against something, you are a participant.
Alison and Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: And I think that way, this is what Harry is saying.
Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: Okay.
Michael: Dudley may not have been committing the abuse…
Kristen: But you’re not saying anything about it either. Or telling somebody.
Michael: He was still a part of it. Which he was, absolutely.
Alison: No, I definitely agree. I was just thinking, there is a possibility, if you break down that sentence and its clauses, you could apply things different places. I think it was intended to be that way, though.
Michael: I mean, honestly, no matter how you spin what the… I think the big debate that we’ve had is whether the Dursleys were physically abusive. To me, there’s no question because they did try to hit him with a frying pan.
[Kristen laughs]
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: And some people have argued, “Well, she wasn’t actually trying to hit him.” No, no, she was trying. You don’t just not try to hit somebody with a frying pan; that’s a little elaborate of a…
[Hannah and Michael laugh]
Michael: But at the same time, it doesn’t really matter what kind of abusive the Dursleys were [or] what kind of abuse they were directing at Harry…
Alison: It’s all….
Michael: It’s abuse.
Alison: Yeah, definitely.
Hannah: Yeah. Because to say that since it wasn’t physical abuse it’s somehow lessened; it wouldn’t be fair at all.
Alison: Yeah. No, that’s…
Michael: No.
Hannah: Abuse is abuse. It comes in all forms.
Kristen: Yup.
Michael: Yeah, mental, verbal, physical…
Hannah: Mhm.
Alison: Emotional.
Michael: They all… yeah. There are a lot of ways to abuse a person.
Kristen: Yes.
Michael: I think the… and we have discussed before that the Dursleys were a product of the Roald Dahl kind of villain, where they’re over-the-top, but unlike Roald Dahl, they end up becoming more realistic as characters as the series goes on.
Alison: Yeah. Mhm.
Michael: So that makes them kind of complicated to read, but at the same time, they’re also very similar to fairytale guardians like stepmothers and that traditional role.
Kristen: Mhm.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: And those are pretty much unquestionably abusive characters. But yeah, as far as Dumbledore goes, I think it’s a little… it’s an interesting comparison, but it almost is like a red herring in some ways, too.
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: Well, thank you, everybody, for all the comments. I believe we had a little over 200.
Michael: Wow.
Kristen: And I read almost all of them; it was… couldn’t get them all in, unfortunately.
[Kristen and Michael laugh]
Kristen: But they were all really well, and I almost put in the Crookshanks’s tale from Yo Rufus On Fire because I really enjoyed it, but sorry, it didn’t make it into the show. And if any of the rest of you want to read and comment, just head on over to alohomora.mugglenet.com and see what other people wrote. There’s a lot of good things on there.
Michael: We’ve got a few more comments, but these ones are specifically focused in on the Podcast Question of the Week. And last week’s question, as a reminder, was,
“The story of how Regulus got the locket and how Kreacher failed to destroy it is revealed to all in this chapter.”
Or rather, the last chapter.
“What is not revealed is what made Regulus change his tune and defy Lord Voldemort. There are a lot of theories as to this; there is implied evidence in this chapter that the treatment of Kreacher plays a part in his decision. But as far as we can remember, it has never been elaborated on or confirmed by Rowling. What event do you think pushed Regulus over to the ‘light side’?”
Kristen especially is enjoying the use of the phrase “light side” this week.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: But our first response to the question comes from WizardorWhat, and it actually had an interesting follow-up response by Eileen_Prince/Jones, but we’ll read WizardorWhat’s comment first. WizardorWhat said,
“I had always thought that the reason for Regulus’s version was quite simple – Horcruxes are unusually evil, even for dark wizards. This is why ordinary Dark Arts books refuse to give instructions on them, and why making multiple Horcruxes is completely unprecedented despite millennia of wizarding history. I think that Regulus was shocked to discover that Voldemort was evil enough to make a Horcrux, and decided to thwart him (hence the contents of his note). I was fortified in this conclusion by Regulus’s note ‘to the Dark Lord’ in the locket – if he had some other reason, I would have expected him to include it so that Voldemort would know why he had been betrayed. As with most racists, however unpleasant they are, I don’t think that ‘Dark’ wizards truly, properly, regard themselves as evil. I think that they see themselves as superior, and entitled to rule inferior beings, but not as malevolent. Making a Horcrux, however, is clearly, uncompromisingly evil, and I can see this as lifting the scales from Regulus’s eyes. But I can imagine Kreacher’s treatment as helping with this – unpleasant things happening to someone Regulus loved might have helped convert Regulus’s shock at Voldemort’s depravity into something more like hatred and a desire for revenge.”
So what WizardorWhat was essentially saying is that Voldemort takes Dark Magic to an extreme in his making of the Horcruxes and that goes perhaps beyond what his followers were willing to follow, as his followers really are in for his cause to be prejudiced and to carry out their prejudices. But Eileen_Prince/Jones responded by saying,
“So murder is okay, which is actually what rips your soul, making it possible to make a horcrux, but the act of taking your ripped soul and using it to become immortal is where you cross the line? I guess I’m trying to understand the thought process behind these people’s brains.”
[Alison laughs]
Michael: And that is, I think, a fair question because Death Eaters, while they are carrying out their deeds… they have murdered a lot of people, so…
Kristen: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Alison: I think this comparison to racists is the point of it almost. Making a Horcrux is so unnatural; that is why… like this comment explains, if you’re equating Death Eaters with racists then they see it as natural that they are superior and should be over someone, but making a Horcrux isn’t natural and I think that would be the thing that would freak people out, if that makes sense.
Michael: Hmm.
Kristen: Mhm, yeah.
Michael: Yeah, I could see that. Well…
Alison: It’s still not right, but…
Michael: No.
Kristen: No. God, no. [laughs]
Michael: Well, it’s funny… I guess there’s an element, too, of… the Horcruxes are really so personally entwined to Voldemort. They don’t reflect anything about his cause in relation to other people.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: It’s not like… I mean, ostensibly, I never really could picture Voldemort sharing his knowledge of making Horcruxes with his followers.
Hannah: Mhm. Yeah, there’s almost what the Death Eaters think that they’re doing, and then there’s…
Michael: What they’re actually doing.
Hannah: … what they’re actually doing and what Voldemort really truly intends.
Alison and Kristen: Yeah.
Hannah: There’s a hidden layer of that that includes the Horcruxes and all that sort of stuff, so it’s interesting… when we were first going through this comment, I was like, “No, that’s not it…”
[Michael laughs]
Hannah: … but there’s some validity to that, I think. And that he loves Kreacher, just saying, but…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Yes. No, I think that is a big part of it. Most of the comments did hit upon that. Most of our responses actually did say that Kreacher was the major turning point, which I think he was. I think Kreacher is what, in my opinion, set Regulus in motion. I think, to some degree, Regulus had probably already suspected something but had ignored it because far as Rowling told us, the only way he figured it out, basically, was that he’s smart and that Voldemort bragged.
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: And so he put two and two together. And I think Kreacher’s story was what set him over the edge. Okay, so interesting thing… the interesting question that this discussion brought up for me then… I’d say we can probably unequivocally say that Voldemort’s most fanatical, insane follower is Bellatrix.
Alison and Hannah: Oh, yeah.
Kristen: Mhm.
Hannah: By leaps and bounds.
Michael: Do you think that if Voldemort shared the knowledge… because he does share somewhat a few… we know he shares something with Bellatrix because [of], of course, how protective she is of Hufflepuff’s Cup and how angry she gets when she realizes it’s gone. He probably doesn’t share everything with her but he shares enough. But let’s just theorize for a minute here: If Voldemort ever shared the secret to making a Horcrux with Bellatrix, do you think she’d do it?
Alison: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah!
Kristen: Yeah. Oh, make her own?
Michael: Yeah. She’d make her own.
Alison: Oh, definitely.
Kristen: Oh, yeah. I’m sure that Slytherin has ambition. [laughs]
Alison: Oh, also… well, it would allow her to stay with him forever.
Michael: Yeah, that’s what I was thinking.
Kristen: Yes, and connect with him on a different level than anybody else who’s following him.
Alison: Oh, yeah. Exactly.
Michael: That’s true. Yeah, having a connection that nobody else has with him. That’s certainly something that… yeah.
Kristen: Yeah, she cray-cray. She’d do it.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Insane.
Kristen: You know when Narcissa is saying, “Oh, I don’t want Draco to carry out this mission,” and she’s like, “I would happily give my children!” Bellatrix would probably kill her child to make a Horcrux.
Alison: Oh, gosh.
Kristen: Sorry, that got really dark.
Hannah: Unfortunately, yeah.
Alison: Yeah, you’re right, but… oh, gosh.
Kristen: That’s the kind of person she is.
Hannah: Okay, now I’m just cringing.
Michael: Yeah, that’s probably true. Yeah, that’s unnerving but true, probably very true. I think it is worth exploring… from that comment, it is perhaps worth further exploring as we go on because I think we’re going to see it a lot in Deathly Hallows, just the idea that maybe not all the Death Eaters exactly hold this to the same values. Our next comment comes from Jaye Dozier, who says,
“One thing that I always found especially interesting is the way Sirius described his family, and his brother in relation to them: ‘I hated the lot of them: my parents with their pure-blood mania, convinced that to be a Black made you practically royal… my idiot brother, soft enough to believe them…’ Sirius calls his brother ‘soft’ – which suggests to me that he was impressionable and over-eager to please. It seems that Regulus felt things deeply, which explains his dramatic actions in both signing up to be a Death Eater and sacrificing himself in order to pave the way for Voldemort’s death. Regulus was basically raised in the mindset of a royal, bred to believe his bloodline was more ‘elite’ and ‘pure,’ and by signing up as a Death Eater, he believes he is basically inheriting his birthright to rule over others. It isn’t until he actually escapes the brainwashing of his family and sees the ’cause’ firsthand that he realizes what horrors he has signed up for. I think Regulus probably had been doubting his decision to join Voldemort for a while, but the treatment Voldemort put Kreacher through was icing on his fed-up cake. We know he genuinely cared for the elf, and perhaps Kreacher and Regulus bonded so much because in a way, they were both brainwashed by the same family. One could also make the comparison to Snape – both bravely defied the cause they originally signed up for once they realized on a personal level what following Voldemort actually meant (in their case, losing the ones you love or watching them suffer) and worked to defy that cause from within enemy lines. I wish Sirius could’ve known just how much he and his brother really had in common in the end.”
Hannah and Kristen: Aww.
Michael: Probably the most, I think, worthwhile point… there’s a lot of good points in Jaye Dozier’s comment but the one that I think was probably the best was the comparison to Snape.
Kristen: Yeah, I liked that.
Alison and Hannah: Yeah.
Michael: Because that’s interesting… of course, Regulus isn’t quite talked about in the fandom like Snape is.
Kristen: Mhm.
Hannah: Right.
Michael: But do you think that’s something… do you think there’s similar issues that come up with Regulus in that respect, of being put on a pedestal by the fandom for the one good thing he did at the end? Or was…
Hannah: I think someone did make a comment somewhere, so I apologize for not citing you, but you basically said that… when people say, “Oh, a good Slytherin,” you think of Slughorn. No, no, Regulus is now my good Slytherin.
[Everyone laughs]
Hannah: Because he realizes what Snape realizes without the creepy unrequited love part.
[Michael laughs]
Hannah: It’s just genuine caring for your house-elf and… I don’t know. Man, he’s like Percy; now he’s like Snape… I like Regulus a lot more now that we’re talking about this.
Alison: Well, there’s also the fact that Regulus, I feel like, did this not for personal gain; got into turning around. He did it more because he saw that this was wrong and decided that it was wrong, whereas Snape wanted something out of it.
Kristen and Michael: Mmm.
Alison: There is, though, also the fact that we don’t know what Regulus did before, whereas we know all the really awful things that Snape did to children for years.
Kristen: [laughs] Mhm.
Michael: And I liked what Jaye Dozier said, too, about Regulus perhaps was in over his head when becoming a Death Eater.
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: It was more to impress than it was perhaps to actually be following along with the belief system…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: … because he was… and that’s something we encounter with some other characters, and actually, that perfectly segues into our final comment from hermyweasley, who says… and here are some more great character comparisons for us. We’re on a roll with these. As hermyweasley says,
“During this reread, I have started noticing comparisons between Regulus and both Draco and Percy. Draco, of course, was attempting to live out a future that had been built for him since he was a boy. Seeing as his parents (mostly Lucius) were such strong influences on Draco’s decision making during his time at Hogwarts, he took the path that was easy. Regulus certainly could have been in a similar situation considering the Black family ancestry and all that it stood for. There is no doubt in my mind that Regulus was taught the same values that Voldemort believed, making it an easy decision to become a Death Eater. What better way to make his family proud? Draco and Regulus both ‘saw the light’ once they realized just how far Voldemort was willing to go in order to stay in power. As for the Regulus/Percy connection, they had a similar level of ambition, albeit for differing sides. Percy wanted recognition and influence regardless of the level of danger his family was in toward the end of the series. Regulus sent his house-elf to do Voldemort’s bidding without a second thought, I can only imagine this act was designed to raise himself up as a loyal follower in Voldemort’s eyes. Eventually, both Percy and Regulus wise up and realize that some things are more important than power such as family or a chance to undo a terrible choice you made.”
Hannah and Michael: Ooh, mhm.
Alison: Yeah. I like this part about Draco, too.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: And about living up to the family name because I feel like Regulus probably would’ve… Sirius was such a rebel that Regulus probably felt that pressure to live up to the family name, to be what the family expected him to be, which I think is part of Draco’s problem, too. And obviously, you don’t realize that until you’re a lot older and you start realizing your motivation behind some things, but I think that’s great. That’s a really good comparison.
Kristen: And it goes back to that brainwashing…
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: … and elitist, and everything like that that they’ve grown up with for so long.
Michael: Yeah, I really like that point because I think that’s… I didn’t get to actually include this comment, but one of our commenters, Nina, she left a great comment that compared their situation to the way that young children were raised in the Hitler regime.
Alison and Hannah: Yeah.
Michael: And that they were bred practically to believe these things that their surroundings just made them inclined to believe because they had no other point of view to look at that they were exposed to.
Kristen: Mhm.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: And as we’ve already explained before in discussion – and I think is very obvious in Deathly Hallows – there are multiple parallels to World War II and the atrocities of World War II and the prejudice that that stemmed from. So I think this is another great example, that Draco and Regulus are both great examples of younger individuals who didn’t know any better…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: … but found their way back to the right path by being exposed to a different point of view [and] by being exposed to the other side and seeing that it’s actually… to be a part of this, and to believe this, really requires you to do horrible things. We’re about to jump into a chapter that has a lot of moral grayness…
[Alison and Hannah laugh]
Michael: … so this is kind of a perfect lead-up to that. But before we do, I just wanted to make sure and shout-out to some of the comments that I wasn’t able to include. I apologize if you weren’t included in this. I read the comments pretty early in the week, but I wanted to shout-out to DeathEaterInTraining, Fwoopertunes – that is quite a name to say…
[Alison laughs]
Michael: … Fwoopertunes – I know what a Fwooper is, but that’s a fun… [laughs] that’s a fun portmanteau – GeorgesHolyEar, Gryffindork, HowamIgoingtotranslatethis, Rose Lumos, Silverus Snape, and Theyvetakenmyweazey. And I wanted to do a Shout-out Maxima once again to Nina, who left a great comment, as well as SeekerHolly. Both of you, your comments also almost very closely ended up in the show. I just wasn’t able to fit them in due to time constraints. But thank you all for leaving your comments on this week’s Podcast Question of the Week. And if you’d like to leave more comments or see what other listeners were commenting about, you can head over to alohomora.mugglenet.com to read their responses as well.
Alison And now that we have made it through heavy comments, we’re going to get on to a heavy chapter. [laughs] This is a dark and heavy show.
Michael: Ah, it’s so heavy!
Alison: All right, so here we go into our chapter discussion.
[Deathly Hallows Chapter 11 intro begins]
Mundungus: Chapter 11.
[Sound of Kreacher hitting Mundungus with a pan]
Mundungus: “The Bribe.”
[Deathly Hallows Chapter 11 intro ends]
Alison: All right, so the trio have a lead on the locket, but Harry’s impatient pacing is interrupted by a surprise visit from Remus Lupin. Everyone is relieved to hear that no lasting damage was done to any of their friends and family, but the drastic changes in the Wizarding world since Voldemort’s coup come as a shock to all. Lupin reveals some news, and he and Harry get into a massive fight, leaving Harry reflecting on parents, children, and his search for the truth. Kreacher finally brings Mundungus around, and the new owner of the locket that holds a piece of Voldemort’s soul is revealed.
Michael: Ooh!
Alison: So a lot is going on in this chapter.
Michael: Ooh, and before we get to the wonderful points that you have written out, Alison, can I just briefly touch on a thing that I saw that I noticed from last week?
Alison: Please, please do.
Michael: Big thing that was discussed for the past two weeks and this chapter almost immediately confirms it: when Lupin shows up at the house, they talk about the Tongue-Tying Curse on Snape. And I just wanted to clarify that we were pondering if Moody’s Dumbledore, if his Dustledore ghost…
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Michael: … was actually useful for anything or if it was just meant to scare people.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: But the chapter does confirm that it places a Tongue-Tying Curse on the individual…
Kristen: Yes.
Michael: … and that the Tongue-Tying Curse does in fact stop you from being able to talk about the location, which ties that all up nicely. So yes, listeners, there was an answer to that question.
[Alison, Kristen, and Michael laugh]
Alison: Speaking of this location, just at the very beginning we get a couple little points about how the Ministry and therefore the Death Eaters know that Harry owns Number Twelve Grimmauld Place. So I think that answers a question they were talking about a couple of weeks ago of: Do they know where this location is from Sirius’s will? And it seems like that’s true. But given that, why wasn’t anyone there when the trio got there? The Ministry had already fallen, had there just not been enough time for them to go searching out places? Because they seem to have found every other place that could have been connected to Harry. So why was no one there?
Hannah: I just think it was delayed. They were getting to other places first. [laughs]
Michael: Well, because part of what – and this is something that I still have confusion on with this part – is that I think you guys are right. I think that it was delayed because they had pretty much almost literally just taken down the Ministry. But to that end it’s pretty amazing how – and Lupin confirms… well, they have some discussion with Lupin and it doesn’t really confirm this because we won’t find this out until later – but they’re positing how did Harry get trapped? And of course it’s revealed that it’s because Harry was throwing Voldemort’s name out willy-nilly…
[Alison laughs]
Michael: … and that’s what made them follow him. So there’s been a suggestion that the reason that they eventually show up at Grimmauld Place is because Harry is still bandying about Voldemort’s name…
Kristen: Mhm. Yup.
Michael: … without hesitation. But that doesn’t break through the Fidelius Charm. So they know he’s in the area…
Kristen: But not exactly where.
Alison: Mhm.
Alison and Michael: Yeah.
Michael: … but they can’t find him. So I do think there is an element that they did figure it out from the will, but I think the use of Voldemort’s name might have also helped.
Kristen: Yeah. I believe that one first. [laughs]
Michael: Yeah. I think that might be…
Hannah: That’s the way I always thought of it as.
Alison: Yeah, I always thought it was too, but… very interesting.
Michael: But you’re right, because the chapter suggests that it’s because of the will.
Kristen: Chapter’s wrong.
[Everyone laughs]
Kristen: Just a suggestion. They don’t know what they’re talking about at the end.
Alison: Lupin arrives…
Michael: Oh, God.
Alison: … in this chapter…
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Before we get to the big stuff that happens with Lupin, let’s kind of talk about the news he brings with him.
Michael: I can sit and listen to Lupin talk all day, I don’t care.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Bring it on, Lupin. Throw it at me.
Alison: Okay. So the first thing we learn is that the Order is under survilance at this point. Lupin says he had to run around for three days to get rid of someone tailing him. He tells them that he had to Apparate precisely on the front step of Number Twelve to make sure he wasn’t caught. So there’s a lot of crazy stuff going on here. We learn some of the stuff the Death Eaters are doing. They’re going around interrogating people – movie makers, it’s Diggle’s house that burns down, not the Burrow…
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: And we get this line that stood out where Lupin says that the Order members left at the wedding were interrogated. But can we safety assume that they were tortured, and why would he not tell the trio the truth about that then?
Kristen: Because Harry would freak out.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Yes!
Michael: Maybe… well, it’s funny because… and as it’s mentioned, I see, later in the notes, Andromeda and Ted are tortured and he happily tells them that. He’s like, “Oh, and also these two were tortured…”
Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: “… horribly…” But they’re fine.
Hannah: But they’re fine, they’re just shaken up…
Michael: Yeah. They’re over it… walk it off.
Hannah: Yeah. Everyone’s okay!
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Maybe it is an element of them just being… like you said, Kristen, that he would freak out because they’re so close to the Weasleys. I don’t know about that though because I can also picture them… I would have assumed that they would have been tortured to some degree…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Because they probably weren’t giving them the answers they wanted. So… because Lupin says too that of course the Weasleys are the only ones who actually know that Harry was at the wedding. Everybody else sans a few people that Harry happily told…
Kristen: I know, right?
Michael: [laughs] Yeah, he gave his cover away to quite a few people, but…
Kristen: By the way… [laughs]
Michael: Lupin’s generally talking about people that Harry doesn’t know. Like, [as Lupin] “Oh, all the other wedding guests were horribly maimed and tortured, but who cares?”
[Kristen laughs]
Alison: But he says that most of them got out because of Kingsley. So I always just assumed that the only people left would have been members of the Order who knew they were coming and were setting up defenses.
Michael: Oh. Yeah, I mean, I guess so. I don’t know.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Yeah, I’m not sure. Maybe Lupin’s story just doesn’t quite clarify who was left.
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: Well, they casually check the Burrow in the attic.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: I just think it’s interesting that… it’s pretty easy to think about. Yeah, they probably did something more than just talk to them.
Michael: Yeah.
Kristen: Yeah, what is their interrogation?
Alison: Yeah.
[Kristen laughs]
Alison: And he wouldn’t just tell the trio, “This happened but everyone’s okay,” so that they were reassured and no one freaked out. [laughs] But like Michael brought up, Lupin does mention that [the] Cruciatus Curse – I can’t speak whatever…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: … was used on Ted and Andromeda Tonks. And maybe you guys will remember or maybe I just saw this somewhere else, it’s suggested that… it’s been suggested somewhere that Bellatrix was the one who actually did this in particular. Do we think that’s plausible? Would that happen?
Michael: I think if it was Bellatrix, they would have been dead.
Hannah: Yeah, she killed her other cousin. She’d have no problem.
Michael: Yeah, she… Bellatrix is out for Tonks’s blood.
Alison: But this is her sister.
Michael: Ah… she doesn’t seem to care about that.
Hannah: Yeah.
Michael: She has a sisterly bond with Narcissa.
Hannah: Mhm.
Kristen: Because Narcissa married the right person.
Michael: Yeah. Mhm. Yeah, yeah. I think she… knowing that she’d kill her own niece because she married the wrong person…
Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: That’s true.
Michael: She’d almost definitely kill her sister because she did. So Ted also represents things that… I mean, he’s a Hufflepuff, so that’s… [laughs]
Kristen: Really.
Michael: That’s low on the list for Death Eaters.
Kristen: That’s right there in itself. [laughs]
Michael: [laughs] That’s unfortunate.
[Kristen laughs]
Michael: Yeah, I think if Bellatrix had tortured them, they would have been dead or they would have had permanent damage.
Kristen: Yeah, they would have been at St. Mungo’s by now.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: Well, talking about… speaking of people who are dying…
Michael: [laughs] Everybody, that’s everybody!
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Pretty much. Lupin also tells us that the Ministry is trying to put blame for Dumbledore’s death on Harry. I mean, I can see how people would believe this, but are people really going to go for this?
Kristen: Unfortunately.
Alison: What could they say that would really convince people that Harry Potter killed Albus Dumbledore?
Michael: See, that’s the thing that’s so clever. They don’t have to say anything because Rita [Skeeter] did all the work.
Kristen: Yeah. Mhm.
Alison: Yeah, I guess that’s true.
Hannah: She has such a following…
Michael: Yeah.
Hannah: … in these passive people who just believe because they always read what she is writing and believe what she says. So whatever she writes, they believe.
Michael: Yeah, don’t they?
Hannah: They don’t research for themselves. I’m learning about that in my PR class.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Michael: Absolutely. Don’t you think a public that would be stupid enough to believe Rita Skeeter without question would believe this?
Alison: That is… yeah, that’s very true.
Hannah: Mhm. Yeah.
Michael: Quite honestly…
Hannah: And if you’ve never met Harry, like most of the wider wizarding world, it’s probably easier to believe that sort of thing about someone you haven’t actually met.
Kristen: And you’re only getting your information from this one source.
Hannah: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, Harry is the equivalent of a celebrity.
Hannah and Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: And people believe what they hear about celebrities if it’s just printed.
Kristen: Oh, yeah.
Michael: The unfortunate thing is… I think that’s an interesting question, Alison. I think we all feel, being able to read it from Harry’s perspective, we as the readers can be like, “God, the wizarding public is stupid.”
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Michael: But…
Kristen: Just like our public.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Kristen: Unfortunately.
Alison: That’s the thing, yeah.
Michael: What do we believe from day-to-day that we just read? Do we always think critically about what we read or what we see on the news, or do we just take it at face value? And I think a lot of people do and I think… Lupin calls this move a master stroke…
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: … and he’s right. I learned as far as being in my film classes back in my college days that you have to be very careful about what you believe. Don’t take everything with a grain of salt and just sit and reflect for just a moment when you read something that’s shocking. Or even something that you will happily take as a belief, that you will happily accept, maybe you should be a bit more cautious before you happily accept it.
Kristen: Mhm.
Hannah: Yup.
Michael: To the wizarding world’s credit, though, compared to us, the Daily Prophet, according to Pottermore and Rowling, is the only news source in existence.
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: Exactly. Where are you going to find other stuff? You can’t.
Michael: Yeah, your only alternative is The Quibbler.
Alison: Or I guess they’ve got radio.
Michael: Yeah, they do have the WWN, but as far as we know, other than Potterwatch, which will come later, the WWN doesn’t really report news. They kind of just do…
Kristen: And I’m sure that’s controlled by the government as well.
Michael: Yes.
Alison: Probably, yeah.
Michael: Yeah. I’m sure that would be. But even if it… and it’s interesting that she doesn’t touch on that, because that was a big thing in the war.
Alison: Well, talking about crazy things that are happening that people will believe anything, we also hear about the new Muggle-born register.
Michael: This is awful.
Alison: Oh, gosh.
Kristen: Mhm.
Alison: It very much matches World War II parallels…
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: … like we were talking about before.
Kristen: Oh, yeah. Mhm.
Alison: But every time I read this, I just think, really? No one said anything about this? No one was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa! Maybe this is a bad idea.” Especially if we’re taking the timeline of this as being in the 1990s, so you would think people would be saying, “Wait. Someone tried to do this before and it really ended very badly.” So in addition to that, we learn on Pottermore that Muggle-borns actually come from Squibs. They can trace their bloodlines back through Squibs. So how had this not been proven before? Or is it just being covered up? How have people never heard about this, or had it not been found out yet?
Kristen: Because it’s old Pottermore – not true.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Old Pottermore’s gone.
Hannah: We’re being skeptical about what we read.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: I think as far as that goes… because Ron brings that up – by the way, shout-out to Ron. He’s very on it in this chapter, I think.
Hannah: Oh, yeah.
Alison: Aww, Ron!
Michael: We haven’t seen Ron so on it for a while. I’m very impressed with Ron in this chapter.
Kristen: I love you, Ron.
Michael: Got to love him.
Alison: Love.
Michael: But he brings up that the idea of stealing magic is absurd because then Squibs wouldn’t exist because they could just take magic.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: And Lupin and Hermione kind of brush it over, and they brush it over, I think, because the reality of the situation… like you said, Alison, how can people not recognize this because this has happened already?
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: But I think what’s been implied is that the reaction is that families are either leaving the country or they’re being quiet because they don’t know who to trust.
Alison: Yeah. That is true.
Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: Speaking out… it’s all well and good to speak out, but speaking out when your neighbor might be, in this case, under the Imperius Curse, might be… the equatable thing would be that you don’t know whether your neighbor is… in World War II, if you’re a Jew and you want to speak out about this, what if your neighbors are Nazis?
Alison: Yeah. That’s very true.
Kristen: Yup.
Michael: And you couldn’t possibly have known that at the time. That was the horrifying thing, that there were people on all different sides during the war who were very in close proximity to each other.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Especially during the early years of the war. And it’s funny, too… it’s really great in this moment how it’s talked about how Lupin makes clear that this has been done so quietly.
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: Mhm. Yeah.
Alison: Because it sounds to us as readers like it’s a huge, big deal…
Michael: Yeah!
Alison: Because… yeah.
Michael: Well, because we have insider information from the Order.
Alison and Kristen: Uh-huh.
Michael: But the public doesn’t have that. And it’s perfect because if you read or see anything about the early days of World War II, people were astonishingly stupid.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Michael: But in some ways, it wasn’t their fault because it crept up on them. You know?
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: It’s not like Hitler woke up one day, did what he did, and then people suddenly followed him in a day. It was very carefully planned, very methodically done, and each country noticed it at different times. Embarrassingly, we were one of the last ones to do anything.
Kristen: Yeah…
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: The US held out on involving ourselves in World War II, because we were basically like, “Well, not our problem.”
Kristen: Mhm.
Alison: Yeah. Until it became our problem.
Michael: Yup!
Kristen: Sounds like us.
Michael: Well, yeah. And it became our problem because Japan bombed us.
Alison: Exactly.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: And it was like, “This is our problem!”
Michael: Yup. So yes, even across the world there was a slow realization of what was going on in World War II, and there were differing levels of ignorance.
Hannah: Correct me if I’m wrong, but the Order of the Phoenix is a secret society, right?
Alison: Umm…
Michael: Kind of.
Hannah: Like the average wizard probably doesn’t know.
Alison: Yeah.
Hannah: So they don’t even really know that anyone’s fighting against it.
Alison: I think they’ve been mentioned, but no one knows who the members are because…
Hannah: Mhm.
Alison: I think Rita actually mentions, “What is the true purpose of the secret organization known as the Order of the Phoenix?” Something like that in one of her articles.
Michael: Yes, she does.
Hannah: True. Okay.
Alison: So I think the name is out there, and the association to Dumbledore is out there…
Michael: But the members aren’t.
Alison: … but who actually belongs to it isn’t.
Kristen: Yeah. And are they really doing anything?
Hannah: Yeah. I could see being hesitant to speak up if you don’t even know if there’s anyone out there or who the people are that would back you up.
Alison and Michael: Yeah.
Alison: That’s true. Yeah.
Hannah: If it really feels like it’s just you, that’s a little dangerous.
Michael: As far as your question about the Muggle-born stuff and how people don’t know about that, I think that there are… and we’ve already seen there are invested interests in the Ministry…
Alison: Oh, definitely.
Michael: And certain people who would pay money, which they have, to keep information quiet.
Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: There’s actually a great bit about that in Tales of Beedle the Bard. Listeners, if you haven’t read it, change your life right now.
[Kristen laughs]
Michael: After every story in Beedle the Bard, Dumbledore talks about the story and actually what its value in the wizarding world is and in social life. And one of the stories he actually talks about specifically, that Lucius Malfoy tried to ban it from the Hogwarts library, and he was very active in his campaign. And money was changed in people’s hands and threats were made, and he didn’t get what he wanted. But it’s not like Lucius is the only individual out there who would do something like that. I think if there was anybody in the wizarding world who had proved that information about Muggles and Squibs, there’s plenty of people in the Ministry who would suppress that information.
Alison: And then of course in this moment we get Ron being sweet and protective of Hermione, so we can all have a collective “Aww!” over Ron. [laughs]
Michael: See, I’ve mentioned a few times already that I’ve always been disappointed with the fact that Ron never ends up becoming the war strategist that he’s built up to be in Sorcerer’s Stone.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: I so wanted that. I so wanted Ron to take control of the army.
Alison: Well, we don’t know that he didn’t. He could have when Harry was off by himself.
Hannah: Well, Neville did.
Michael: Yeah, Neville mostly did that.
Alison: Well, yeah.
Hannah: Yeah.
Michael: Which was fun in its own way…
Kristen: Yes.
Michael: … because it was so unexpected. But… the thing about where Ron says, “I’ll have you study my family tree,” Ron does say a lot of smart things in the series, more than I think we give him credit for, but that has to be one of the smartest things that Ron has ever said.
Alison and Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: And once again, something that pulls directly out of World War II, really any war, where people are being prosecuted for their background. But that also goes back to the conversation we had a few chapters ago with Ron using that dating book to his advantage and how sincere he is being with Hermione. He’s being sincere here.
Alison: Oh, definitely.
Kristen: Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Alison: And she knows it, is the thing about this moment.
Michael: Yes.
Kristen: Mhm.
Alison: She definitely understands the sentiment behind it.
Michael: Yeah, Ron has, I think, more than the chapter itself explains – I think the Kreacher chapter is a place for Ron to start evolving his beliefs on things and his behavior towards people. The Kreacher story is an eye-opener for him, and we’ll find that out farther down the line.
Alison: Lupin’s last bit of big news – well, last bit, not really [laughs] – before everything explodes is about Hogwarts and that it’s now compulsory, which we hadn’t known before that it wasn’t. So that was some interesting new info. And then Harry has some really sad thoughts on Muggle-borns that have always really struck me. He talks about eleven-year-olds reading books, reading spellbooks, that might never see Hogwarts. And then he adds in they might never see their families again either.
Hannah: Aww. That is sad.
Alison: What do we think is implying that will be done to these kids? I guess maybe… I thought about it this time because I’d always just thought, oh, they just won’t let them come. They won’t send letters or… well, I guess it’s late enough that they would’ve sent letters already. They won’t let them on the platform, they won’t let them on the train…
Michael: You know, this line is such a big line. I’m surprised that it’s a line that people don’t really go back to…
Alison and Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: … because it’s a very disturbing, striking, tragically beautiful line. And I think… it’s funny, Alison, you say it’s struck you every time before, and it’s hit me before, but this time it really hit me.
Alison: Yeah, same.
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: And I have to wonder… as you were talking about it, I was just wondering, for me personally is it because of the current world climate? We talk about Harry Potter frequently in terms of when it came out and it being a by-product of its time, which it is.
Alisona and Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: Any piece of material is and it’s always worthwhile to reflect on why a piece of material comes out when it does. In Deathly Hallows‘s case, we’re talking 2007. There’s also… in Harry Potter‘s case, especially the last four books, we frequently talk about the post-9/11 years…
Alison and Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: … and how they reflected on the books. And what I’m thinking even in this current climate and why this line disturbs me so much is that this line… there’s a conflict going on in Syria where refugees are being pushed out and children are being killed.
Kristen: Mhm.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Nobody is being spared in Syria, and they’re going to other countries and they’re being unwelcomed. They’re being told to go back, basically to die. And over here in the US we’re having things that… okay, this ties in Star Wars in a more unfortunate way. As everybody knows, the new Star Wars trailer was released, and on Twitter there was a hashtag that trended called #boycottstarwars.
Alison: Oh, yeah. So dumb.
Michael: And not for the reasons that, if you bring that hashtag up, that it should’ve been. It was because there was a belief that the new Star Wars movie is anti-white and promotes white genocide because it has pretty much, as we’ve seen, one black character in it. [laughs]
Alison: It’s just so dumb. Oh, not… the hashtag is dumb. That’s what I’m saying.
Michael: And the fact that hashtag exists and that it gained traction enough so to get attention…
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: That’s disturbing.
Hannah: Yeah.
Michael: And that’s a pretty sick reality about our world, the idea that it doesn’t really… that we’re still going to put down certain people because of their color, their race, their sexuality, gender background, whatever it may be. That we will happily trend that topic to gain attention and gain what we want.
Hannah: Mhm.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: And what it goes back to, I guess with this line, is that it affects… we have a generation where that directly affects children. Children are a part of this conflict and children can still be victims of senseless violence, thoughtless violence.
Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: And Harry isn’t blind by this line that these kids… not even the idea that they’ll be sent to Azkaban, but they’ll be killed on the spot.
Alison and Hannah: Yeah.
Alison: Well, speaking of kids…
[Hannah laughs]
Alison: Lupin’s big bombshell drops.
Michael: Okay…
Alison: But first it gets led up to in a kind of, “yeah, here comes the big time.”
Michael: God!
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Alison: So Lupin actually offers to come with the trio on their mission. And the interesting thing I think that we forget about a lot when we talk about this scene is that Harry is really tempted at first. He wants Lupin to come with them. He knows they’re going to be facing stuff that he’s not going to know how to handle, and that Lupin could have some experience that would be helpful. But really, the first reason he decides that Lupin shouldn’t come is that Harry doesn’t think that he could keep the secret from Lupin if he came. So does this show that Harry is kind of growing up a little bit more, or is it more that this is an indication that he’s becoming more and more like Dumbledore throughout this book?
Michael: No, all it shows is that Harry is a stupid poop.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Well, we all know Michael’s opinion.
[Everyone laughs]
Kristen: I just thought he was trying to keep him safe away from their mission…
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: … of what they’re really having to deal with and not trying to bring another person into that.
Alison: Does that make him like Dumbledore though? Because I feel like that was what Dumbledore was always trying to do. He kept things to himself to not endanger people, and it ended up endangering them more… [laughs]
Kristen: Hmm… because I don’t think this way… bringing Lupin along wouldn’t endanger him more, I guess. I don’t see him as Dumbledore, but I’m not a big fan of Dumbledore. I mean, I see where you’re coming from, but I’d say no.
Michael: I see the Dumbledore comparison. See, the thing that ends up… the hard thing about this discussion is that the ends… we can say now that the ends justify the means…
Alison and Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: … because Harry does what Dumbledore says. He takes his directive very, very literally – in my opinion, too literally – and he doesn’t tell anyone, but it ends up fine. But I think a lot of that is… well, one, Hermione is a lot of that, and two, there’s a lot of… not perhaps literal Felix Felicis, but there’s some luck involved in how things go down. There are certain things that Dumbledore just could not have possibly predicted, and things I think happened that Dumbledore did not predict that just ended up working out.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Yeah, I don’t know. I’d like to think it’s Harry growing up a little because there is a little… it’s almost a show of teenage independence…
Kristen: Mhm.
Alison: Definitely.
Michael: “No, I don’t want to tell you. I’ve got to do it by myself. Leave me alone.”
Kristen: Yeah. “We’ve got this.”
Michael and Alison: Yeah.
Michael: But I mean, it also just… I’ll never get over… and it’s because I’m biased.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Michael: And listeners, I know you’ll rag on me the whole week about this – and I admit it’s because I’m biased – but oh my God, take Lupin with you!
[Hannah and Kristen laugh]
[Alison groans]
Michael: Lupin is such a powerful wizard. That’s the thing that really gets me is that we have implications – and we have confirmation from Pottermore through Rowling – that Lupin was incredibly powerful. He was very knowledgeable in the kind of magic that they needed to know about.
Alison: Yeah.
Hannah: Well, so…
Kristen: Even if he has this baby?
Alison: Yeah, that’s what I was going to say.
Michael: We’ll get to… I’m not factoring in the baby yet!
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Kristen: Okay, okay, okay. Not factoring in the baby yet, then yes.
Hannah: If he were to go with them, Snape’s not making that potion for him anymore.
Alison: [gasps] Oh!
Hannah: So maybe…
Alison: That’s a problem.
Michael: Yes, so he can finally be the awesome werewolf that he was meant to be.
Kristen: They’ll just separate every three days – I mean, once a month every few days.
[Michael laughs]
Hannah: “We’ll meet you back here in like two days.”
[Michael and Alison laugh]
Michael: Well, that’s what’s interesting is that…
Kristen: “Go kill some Snatchers. We’ll be okay.”
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Hannah: “Talk about Voldemort and then Apparate.”
Michael: Well, that’s funny because Lupin implies that his werewolf powers will come in handy for them.
Kristen: I know.
Hannah: That’s true.
Michael: Because he just says, “You know what I am and what I can do.” And I assumed that that meant, “Do you have a backup stash of Wolfsbane potion somewhere that nobody knows about?”
[Alison laughs]
Kristen: He’d be a great guard dog.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Now that we’ve accepted that we’re not factoring in the baby, we’re going to get to the baby.
Kristen: Baby?
Alison: Spoilers! Hermione is actually the one who brings up Tonks, which I thought was very interesting. And going back to that point of Harry growing up, because Harry doesn’t think of this, is this an indication that he is still looking for an adult to guide him? Okay, I personally think at this point Harry wants Lupin to come with them. He desperately wants that guide, he wants that adult supervision, if you will. He wants someone who can help him, like he has done for the past six years. Is that why Harry doesn’t think about Tonks, because he wants his old DADA teacher back?
Kristen: Honestly, my thing is just, I mean, Hermione is a girl and she is going to think it up. Harry is not.
Alison: That is true.
Hannah: Well, I think Hermione is starting to see Ron as her significant other, and seeing him in danger at the wedding, that was the priority. Grab him and go. So I think she is more likely to make that connection of, “Hey, you have that person that is important to you. What about her?” And I don’t think Harry is there yet, which is probably my issue with the Ginny stuff, but… [laughs]
Michael: I was just going to say that that almost is a missed opportunity.
Alison: Yeah, it definitely is.
Michael: If Harry had noted it first, it would have almost strengthened the Ginny thing. Because yes, I have that same qualm, which is that he doesn’t really… we have almost fixed, perfect moments where he is supposed to think about Ginny, so he thinks about Ginny. And he doesn’t think about her anymore. [laughs] So I mean, really, how much better does that make him than Lupin in this situation? Yeah, Harry did want to take Lupin with him. I want them to take Lupin with them.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: I think any reader would want that, as far as just considering it is your first reread and you don’t know that Lupin has a baby. Yes. You say yes.
Alison: Yes.
Michael: But I’m not surprised that Hermione brought it up first. Hermione is more in tune with emotional things.
Alison: Well, speaking of this baby that is going to become Teddy Lupin…
Hannah and Kristen: Aww.
Alison: … we get a lot of Harry-James and Teddy-Remus parallels in this. Harry really uses his father’s actions that he knows of as the center of his argument. However, Lupin is really seriously worried about this child and what he has done in helping to create this child. And so, this is where we get in that sticky, gray area of who is right. Not right, but who has the better argument, maybe, in this case?
Michael: Both of them are right.
Hannah: I don’t think Harry… he just sees Lupin wants to ditch them. And then that is not acceptable. He is not understanding how worried Remus is about this baby, and what he might have passed on to the baby and putting Tonks in danger, and all that sort of stuff. Because there is still no Wolfsbane potion! He is dangerous! [laughs]
Alison: [laughs] That is true.
Michael: I jump to Lupin’s defense because his argument of what he might have done. What kind of life he might have sentenced his child to is valid, because he doesn’t have any other examples to go off of.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: We know that other werewolves have had children, now, thanks to Pottermore. But of course, other werewolves that have done that would never be public about that.
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: Yeah, true.
Michael: It is essentially the same – and Rowling clarified on Pottermore – the lycanthropy is a metaphor for HIV and AIDS. And HIV and AIDS cannot be passed down genetically, but they can be passed on in childbirth. But there are ways to prevent that.
Alison: Mhm.
Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: So, but of course, especially in third world underdeveloped countries, it passes on because a lot of individuals don’t have the ability to or the care that they need so that they can prevent passing it on. And in Lupin’s case, he doesn’t know whether it is going to pass on or not, and I think that’s…
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: Abandoning Tonks? No, that was not the right solution.
[Kristen laughs]
Hannah: Right.
Michael: And to be fair, it’s not like he left her cold, out on the street.
[Kristen laughs]
Michael: He left her at her parents’ house. And the thing, too, is… what I think is an interesting revelation from Lupin is that he mentions that he doesn’t believe that her parents are very happy about their marriage.
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: Yet another interesting layer about the Tonks family because I mean, I don’t know what to think of that because we don’t get much on the Tonks after the fact.
Alison: Yeah. I’m more inclined to believe that’s just Lupin’s insecurity.
Hannah: Oh, it’s…
Michael: I was wondering that.
Kristen: Yeah. It’s his self-loathing coming through.
Alison: It’s because… yeah.
Kristen: Completely.
Alison: I feel like Ted Tonks especially would be understanding of the feeling like an outsider and would be perfectly happy as long as he’s a good man to have engaged to his daughter.
Michael: Well, the interesting thing, perhaps, with… we talked about Andromeda and how protective she is of Tonks… when Harry shows up, she has no interest in Harry; she’s only interested in Tonks.
Hannah: Yeah.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: Wouldn’t it be interesting if… couldn’t you see a mother who’s that protective of her child being wary, at least, of the fact that her child just married a werewolf?
Alison: Yeah.
Hannah: With the Tonks – or, no, what am I trying to say? – Ted and Andromeda being kind of cut off from the Black family, I think they’d be much more conscious of not doing that to their daughter.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: Hmm.
Kristen: Yeah. That…
Hannah: That’s just my thought.
Michael: Well, the Tonks and… the relationship between Nymphadora and her family is not really expanded upon in a way where we can understand it.
Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: Because Tonks implies that she has a tenuous relationship with her parents because she hates the name they gave her. That’s pretty much her opinion of them that we get is, “Wouldn’t you hate your name if your fool of a mother named you Nymphadora?” is kind of her side. And then we see Andromeda, who is very invested in only her child, really, from the perspective of the war.
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: And then we see Ted, who’s kind of like the pretty stereotypical Hufflepuff who seems very open and welcoming but still cautious in his own way. But yeah, it’s kind of hard to suss out what the Tonks family really thinks of this situation, so I don’t know if we can say for… I’d like to think it’s all Lupin kind of drumming things up in his head because he’s hysterical.
Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: Well, I think even if there was some truth to it, Ted and Andromeda seem like the kind of people who respect their daughter’s choices. [laughs] And so I think they would just kind of have to be like, “Well, nothing we can do about it. Doesn’t matter what we think, really; we might as well just accept it and move on.”
Michael: Yes. As far as Harry’s side of the argument, he starts out correct but he takes it way too far.
Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: And again, in his mind, and as he says, and as the book notes, “The end justifies the means.”
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: But I… to quote Chris Evans, [as Evans] “I don’t like it!”
[Alison, Kristen, and Michael laugh]
Michael: I don’t like it.
[Everyone laugh]
Alison: I think Harry’s little hothead Gryffindor head runs away with him and he says things such as…
[Michael laughs]
Alison: This isn’t quite as bad, but he’s really upset, and he brings up Sirius against Remus and says that Remus is trying to fill Sirius’s shoes. Why?
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: This has always felt slightly out-of-the-blue to me. So why bring up Sirius and Sirius’s recklessness, which has always kind of been a sensitive subject with Harry himself?
Michael: I honestly think… it’s going to sound silly to say, but I honestly think it’s because it was one of the meanest things he could say.
Hannah: I was going to say, yeah, when you get hotheaded and stuff you think of the meanest things you want to say. Of course, you regret it later on, but…
Michael: Which he does.
Alison: He definitely does.Hannah: Oh yeah, you want to hit it home and…
Michael: Because that, to me, while Lupin may be doing this to… I do think there’s an element where Lupin is running away from his responsibilities because that’s pretty clear.
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: Mhm.
Michael: But I don’t think he’s running away from his responsibilities with the specific intention of… there’s a selfish reason for it but there’s also… he has reason to himself that there’s a larger reason… that being the war. But no, no, he’s not being Sirius.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: That was mean.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Not quite as mean as the final line he throws at him, which is that he… he calls Lupin a coward, [laughs] which is just really Harry… really… like… really… [laughs] this is not the kind of thing you think of which, obviously, it’s a very heat of the moment. He regrets it almost immediately after but really Harry? Coward?
Michael: Yeah, that’s kind of like what we talked about last week with the weird comparison of Pettigrew and Lupin.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: And the idea that coward is a word that is often contributed to Pettigrew and I was wondering if that was meant to be foreshadowing for this… this is tough because Lupin is being… I don’t know if coward is the right word, because his concerns are justified.
Alison: Definitely…
Michael: I do think that the cowardly thing is that he’s taking it all on himself and not letting anyone else in… to help. And that he’s doing what he’s always done. That’s a bit cowardly because he knows it doesn’t get him anywhere.
Hannah: But it’s so… it’s so… Gryffindor.
Michael: Yes.
Hannah: Like that is the absolute worst thing you could call a Gryffindor.
Micheal: Yeah.
Alison: Definitely.
Hannah: Though, I… I know that… that’s where Harry is coming from. Not even that it’s even necessarily the right assessment, just that it’s the thing that will hurt him the most.
Michael: To be fair… to do something I usually don’t do in this particular chapter but… to play up Harry’s side, Harry’s lost all his guardians.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: All of his parental figures in his life and as he says you… in that the way it has shaped his worldview and he says it… it’s a really striking bold line is the idea that parents shouldn’t leave you unless they have to.
Kristen: Oh.
Michael: And I think he’s seen that over and over and over again. So, yeah. Now I think it’s understandable that Harry says it the way he does and that he uses the word the way he does. It’s a great…
Hannah Yeah.
Michael: … way to put it, Hannah, too… that he’s… like he knows the way to take a Gryffindor down completely.
[Hannah laughs]
Allison: Yeah. We kind of touched on this but right after Lupin leaves, Harry reflects on his “parents” and I put parents in quotes because it’s kind of like his adopted parents as well not that… that it’s not legitimate but anyway. [laughs] Because he thinks of Sirius, he thinks of Dumbledore, and he thinks about his mother, and it kind of goes back to this question of: it really seems like, at this point, Harry just wants someone to guide him again. He wants, and this is reflected – I think – the end of the book in… in the forest scene where, with the Resurrection Stone, where he… he sees them all lined out there. And I think it also is reflective of the end of Half-Blood Prince when Dumbledore dies and he says, “Everyone who stood in front of him is gone.” And I just wanted to mention that this is such a beautiful thing about this book is we’re quite a ways into the last book and Harry still doesn’t feel like he can take this on himself. He still doesn’t feel he’s prepared for this. He hasn’t accepted the hero role quite yet still and it’s…
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: … just like, “Woo… crazy.”
Michael: Yeah, it’s… I think we’ve talked a lot about how much of a journey Harry still has to go on.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: He’s been through a lot and he’s got a long way to go. I really am… I mean… I really am enjoying your interpretation, Alison, of kind of this…
Alison: Thanks!
Michael: This… well… just this unspoken want for a parent. Like, Harry doesn’t really say it in these chapters but it’s very heavily suggested that this… like the idea that this… that this want for a parent still suggests that he’s not ready yet.
Hannah: There’s a line later on where he kind of says… I think it’s… after they just escaped the Ministry maybe, but he kind of says, the idea of sneaking through the Forbidden Forest to Hogwarts and the idea of other people being in charge. He already does not want to be in charge and he has to be.
Alison: He is really showing how much of a burden it is to be a hero, which I do not think we see a lot, especially in YA-fiction. It is putting people in a situation that is a lot to carry.
Michael: Yes, I love rooting out what about Harry Potter made it so unique for its time and I do think that is one of those things, it is that so many characters who are the Chosen One or the leader, the whatever, happily take on the responsibility. They are like, “Wheee, I am important.”
[Kristen laughs]
Alison: Or they say, “Oh no, I do not want to. But okay, now I want to.” All right. As Lupin leaves, runs out the door, anyone last thoughts on this fight because this is a huge moment. I think this is probably the most serious fight to this date that we have seen any characters get into.
Michael: To quote Dory speaking whale in Finding Nemo, ‘Come baaaaaaack’.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Sorry Alison, I turned your super serious question in a mockery.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: It is okay. That was great. That was great.
Michael: Yes, this makes me super sad and it is the one thing that I will give it credit for is that Rowling spares no character in terms of making them morally grey. Remus, just like everybody else, ends up being revealed to be human, which in a way is why I think I like him more.
Hannah: Yes, I think it makes the characters more… I feel like they are more endearing to me because I can understand it. That is a terrible thing to do or a terrible thing to say, but everyone makes mistakes. Everyone does things they should not do and to see your favorite characters go through that is like, “Oh, okay, so I am not a terrible person because I did this terrible thing.” You have a chance to redeem yourself, which thankfully Lupin does. It is a real-life situation. I feel like we have all been in it before.
Kristen: Definitely.
Michael: Yes, yes.
Hannah: So it is good to see it. Everybody has fights and they say stuff that they do not mean to.
Michael: Can I say, though, that despite all of this, maybe even because of this, Lupin is still my favorite character in the series and I do not know what it is about that particular line, this is just a random thing, but every time I read it that line where he is like, “Will three become four?” is like, “Oh my God, you are so awesome.”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: Who says that? Nobody.
Alison: Nobody. I am going to start saying that.
Michael: What Shakespeare play did you walk out of?
[Alison laughs]
Hannah: So this table over here, so is three going to become four now. I am here, guys.
[Alison and Michael laugh?
Alison: After Lupin is gone, Harry makes the mistake of thinking reading a Rita Skeeter article is going to make him feel better.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Hannah: So stupid.
Michael: It cannot going to make him feel worse, at least.
Alison: That is true. Speaking of this article, though – this is a side note. I do not know why I picked up on it this time but the town name of Mould-on-the-Wold is just…
[Alison and Hannah laugh]
Alison: … the best town name I think I have ever heard in my whole life and I really appreciate it. It is so British. It is so British.
[Hannah, Kristen, and Michael laugh]
Alison: Into Rita’s article. There is a lot of speculation in this article, obviously, but maybe just because I work with writing all day, every day. It is interestingly the kind of rhetoric that Rita is using and how she is so good at presenting, basically something she put together out of a few tiny, little details as the honest straight truth fact that no one can refute, including the suggestion that Ariana is a Squib. This is the second time we have mentioned Squib in this chapter.
Michael: Yes, I think part of the reason that Rita is also so good about cancelling arguments out against her is that she is using direct quotes from Bathilda Bagshot, which is the naughtiest part.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: It’s almost like she’s using very selective quotes of what Bathilda said to make…
Alison: Oh, definitely.
Michael: … just the most uncomplimentary stuff, and she’s taking it out of context.
Hannah: I just had a really… I keep having really terrible thoughts, you guys. I’m sorry.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: That’s good. This is a really terrible chapter.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: It really is a terrible chapter.
Hannah: What if Dumbledore did something to her so that she would never speak about what happened when he was younger?
Michael: Huh.
Laura: That seems a little far even for Dumbledore.
Kristen: Yeah, well, I don’t know. [laughs]
Michael: Well, I wonder in terms of Dumbledore just being… even if it didn’t happen when he was younger. Maybe even later in life…
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: … because Dumbledore really did not want his past shared with anybody.
Alison: For all his faults, though…
Kristen: But she told Lily.
Alison and Michael: Yeah, she did.
Michael: So that’s probably not true. Unless he did it after Lily and James died. But what would his reason for that be?
Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: I have a hard time believing that. I think Bathilda would have been smart enough to know what she shouldn’t tell people…
Hannah: That’s true.
Alison: … and to be… I feel like most people are… if you’re close to someone, relatively, and they have something…
Michael: Tactful?
Alison: … you can be tactful. You can respect their privacy.
Kristen and Michael: Yeah.
Michael: Well, Hannah, if it’s any consolation, somewhere Noah is screaming in happiness at your theory.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: I think that’s a fun theory to bandy about; to play with at least.
Alison: Okay, and because of this article we start seeing again one of these really big themes in this book. Harry really starts wondering about truth and finding answers. But he doesn’t even really know where he can start searching except for maybe to go to Godric’s Hollow. So what if they had gone? What if they had gone sooner? How would having Ron there change things? Do we think that… well, obviously we know that at this point Nagini is with Voldemort, so we can assume that things that happened wouldn’t have happened. [laughs] How would going at this point have changed things?
Michael: Do we know the exact point when Voldemort sent Nagini to do what she did to Bathilda? Do we know when that happens?
Alison: Well, I think we can assume that she’s still…
Michael: With Voldemort right now?
Alison: … before they got to Gringotts… because that’s what I was thinking, was that she’s with him when everyone is there.
Michael: Mmm, yeah.
Laura: But we know she at least was there at the beginning of the book, which wasn’t too long ago.
Michael: Well, and Nagini didn’t… see, this is something that I’ve always been unsure of. It’s always hard for me to keep track of when something gets turned into a Horcrux.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: Did Nagini get turned into a Horcrux when Charity Burbage was killed?
Alison: No, it was Frank Bryce.
Michael: Oh, it was Frank? Okay, so she’s already been a Horcrux for a while. So in that way I’m still boggled that Voldemort was happy to just leave her in Godric’s Hollow for who knows how long.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: That was a dumb plan on Voldemort’s part. Having Ron there, I think, would have been beneficial as far as… I think Ron would have been supportive of going to Godric’s Hollow more than Hermione was, if Harry had been willing to bring that up.
Alison: Mhm.
Michael: Hermione shot him down so quickly that he just didn’t bring it up again.
Alison: Yeah.
Michael: But I think if he’d had another chance to bring it up before Ron had left, I think Ron would have gone for that. Especially in the case of Ron being so annoyed that there was no information to go off of…
Alison: Definitely.
Michael: … I think he would have seconded the idea of, “Well, we’re not getting anywhere. So let’s just go there.” And I think Ron would have been just as supportive and curious and intent on letting Harry just experience his home.
Hannah: I wonder if seeing Harry visit his parents’ graves would have kept Ron from the “You have no family!” comment later on.
Alison: Oh, yeah.
Hannah: I don’t know if that’s a movieism or if that’s the actual quote, but…
Alison: It’s the same sentiment, though.
Hannah: Yeah, to have thrown that… not throw it in Ron’s face, but have him actually experience the idea of a child going to his parents’ grave; I wonder if Ron wouldn’t have left us. [laughs] I don’t know.
Michael: Yeah. I’ve always been sad that Ron actually didn’t get to share that moment with Harry and Hermione because it’s a pretty big moment.
Hannah and Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: It’s actually one of my favorite moments in the book.
Alison: Oh, I love that moment. It’s probably my favorite chapter.
Michael: Yeah, I’ve actually found that moment to be more striking in some ways than “The Forest Again” chapter. That’s an important moment and I think it’s great and it has a lot of value, but there’s something about the graveyard scene that just really hits home in a different sort of way.
Alison and Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: I don’t know what it would have really achieved as far as their quest because as we find out, other than some scant information about Dumbledore, there’s really not that much at Godric’s Hollow. It’s just a trap.
Alison: That’s true.
Hannah: It’s a trap.
Michael: “It’s a trap!” There’s another one!
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: All right. Well, this chapter ends out back where it began. Kreacher shows up and this time he has someone in tow. He has finally found Mundungus, and we get a pretty brief interaction with them. I actually was surprised; I thought it was longer, but the movie, I think, makes it seem a lot longer.
Michael: The movie makes it seem longer because it adds Dobby.
Alison: Oh yeah, that’s true. Forgot about that.
Hannah: I loved that part.
[Hannah and Michael laugh]
Michael: Dobby is in the movie because he hasn’t been in the last movies so they’re like, “Oh, by the way, remember this guy?”
Alison: But we get a flashback we haven’t thought of for a while. Mundungus thinks that they’ve captured him because he left Moody, which made me wonder: How long ago was that? I have the timeline mixed up, I think, in my head because I’m bad with time.
Hannah: It’s just a few weeks, right?
Kristen: Yeah, that’s what I thought.
Hannah: It’s just a few weeks, I think.
Michael: We’re into August now, right?
Alison: Yeah, barely. A couple of days in.
Kristen: So a week?
Michael: [laughs] Well, yeah, because it happened at the end of July on Harry’s birthday. So yeah, we’re a week or two into August. So yeah, it wasn’t that long ago.
Alison: Wow, so much has happened in a week.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: So this made me question, though: Was no one else looking for him? Well, I guess the timeline is shorter. Then it’s more plausible that he was just evading capture. But was anyone in the Order looking for him, do we think?
Michael: God, no.
Alison: Or were they just like, “Get out, you’re gone, we don’t care anymore”?
Michael: Yeah, that’s what I would have said.
Kristen: Yeah, they’re like, “Eff you, not even worth my time…”
[Michael laughs]
Kristen: “… I have to save my own self right now.”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: The Order has got way bigger fish to fry than finding Mundungus.
Alison and Kristen: Yeah.
Alison: That’s true.
Michael: I think he has completely worn out his value to the Order.
Alison: Oh, definitely.
Hannah: Whatever value he supposedly had.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Right?
Michael: Yeah, the thing I will never get over.
Alison: Canon fodder?
Michael: It’s great to have a sneaky thief on your side, but really, he or she should be a former sneaky thief.
Kristen: Yeah. [laughs]
Michael: Not still currently… [laughs] That’s not good.
Kristen: With the way the downfall is happening, I’m sure they figured something bad will happen to him eventually.
Michael: Eh, he’ll get his in the end.
Alison and Kristen: Yeah.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison and Michael: And he does!
Michael: He gets hit over the head by Kreacher with a saucepan.
Alison: Which is quite the moment. I mean, it’s really that that shows he is on Harry’s side. Also, oww.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: The way that’s described… she describes the pan in quite a lot of detail.
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: And it just sounds incredibly painful!
Michael: A heavy old saucepan.
Kristen: His quote that he says: “Perhaps just one more, Master Harry, for luck?”
[Everyone laughs]
Kristen: I was dying laughing yet again. I was like, “I love that.” That’s so funny. I can just see Ron sniggering in the corner.
Michael: This is the scene that confirms that house-elves have been brainwashed and that there’s very… I think there’s still a magical element, but it’s a minor player in that the major issue is that they have been brainwashed…
Kristen: Oh, yeah.
Michael: … because Kreacher is…
Kristen: He’s making jokes.
Michael: Yeah, he’s cracking jokes!
Alison: Yeah.
Kristen: He’s cracking jokes! [laughs]
Michael: Yeah! He’s expressing a very personal independent thought that doesn’t seem like it comes from a house-elf.
Kristen: Yeah.
Michael: Here is the potential of what a house-elf could be, working alongside a wizard rather than under a wizard.
Hannah: Your snarky little sidekick.
Michael: Right?
[Alison, Hannah, and Kristen laugh]
Michael: Oh my God! Wouldn’t it… see, it won’t happen because it takes place in the past, but if… oh my God, wouldn’t it be great if Newt Scamander had a snarky house-elf sidekick?
Alison: Oh, man!
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: That would be wonderful. Someone throw it in. [laughs] Fan fic.
Michael: Oh, man. If that is not in the movie, Rowling, rewrite that script. Oh my God.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Alison: Or throw it in the play.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: You’re still working on that.
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Kristen: When she listens to the episode this Saturday, she’ll be like, “Ah, I have an idea.” [laughs]
Alison: And then we end the chapter by finding out that Umbridge, of all people, has Slytherin’s locket. So Umbridge is in control of a piece of Voldemort’s soul.
Michael: Well…
Kristen: That toad-like face. Ugh.
Alison: And we end with Harry’s scars on the back of his hand tingling.
[Kristen shudders]
Alison: Which is a very, very good way because Umbridge isn’t mentioned at all.
Michael: Yeah.
Alison: They just throw in enough of the things that were said about her in Order of the Phoenix that you know right away who’s being talked about.
Kristen: Oh, yeah. Mhm. The hairs on my arms just go up.
Alison: And that’s where we leave this chapter.
Michael: Well, with that horrible, sour thought of being left with Umbridge at the end of the chapter, we’ll try to turn it away from that. And for our Podcast Question of the Week, we must ask, “What if three became four?”
[Alison laughs]
Michael: Epic British accent. There needs to be epic British trailer music playing behind that. That’s just so epic. [laughs] But really…
Kristen: “In a world…”
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: “In a world when three became four…”
Kristen: Sorry. I can’t help it.
[Alison and Kristen laugh]
Michael: We want to know, “What if Lupin had joined the trio on their quest? Would the trio have been forced to reveal Dumbledore’s plans to Lupin? How would this have changed their course of action? And how would this have affected Tonks’s relationship to Lupin, as well as how we as readers see Lupin?” To answer that Podcast Question of the Week, head on over to alohomora.mugglenet.com. And just remember #LupinLove, but you can still critique Mr. Lupin because we’re all about digging deep on Alohomora!
Kristen: And we also want to thank our special guest, Hannah, for being on today. Hope you had a good time.
Hannah: Oh, it was great. Thank you, guys.
Michael: Hannah was awesome.
Alison: You were awesome.
Hannah: Aww.
Alison: If you would like to be on the show, just like Hannah, go to our “Be on the Show” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. All you need is a set of basic headphones with a microphone, like your Apple ones, and you are all set. No fancy equipment. And while you are on the site, make sure you download a ringtone for free!
Michael: [laughs] Free!
Alison: Sorry.
[Kristen laughs]
Michael: Dobby is free!
[Everyone laughs]
Alison: Dobby has no master!
Michael: [laughs] And in the meantime, you can get in touch with us here on Alohomora!: You can follow us on Twitter at @AlohomoraMN, that is our Twitter handle; facebook.com/openthedumbledore; our Tumblr mnalohomorapodcast.tumblr.com; our Instagram, which is a recent acquisition for us! Instagram at @alohomoramn there as well. Our phone number that nobody ever calls anymore…
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: … 206-GO-ALBUS, that’s 206-462-5287, or the more preferred alternative, you can send us an audioBoom. If you go to alohomora.mugglenet.com, our main site, you’ll see the audioBoom app over on the right sidebar. It is free to use. Just make sure to keep your messages under 60 seconds so that we can actually play them on the show. And all you need for that is a microphone.
Alison: And while you’re on our website sending us an audioBoom, make sure you check out our store. We’ve got all sorts of things: House shirts, Desk!Pig, Mandrake Liberation Front, Minerva Is My Homegirl, and so many more. And hopefully, we should have some new designs coming soon. I know we’ve been kicking around a couple of ideas and we’ve got a new graphic designer, so we should have some cool stuff coming.
Michael: Yay!
Kristen: Woo-hoo! And don’t forget to check out our smartphone app, available around the world.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: [singing] “Around the world, around the world, around the world…”
Kristen: Prices may vary. There are transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and much, much more.
Michael: [laughs] Okay, well, that’s been…
[Alison and Michael laugh]
Michael: This chapter was heavy.
[Everyone laughs]
Michael: So we’re going to go lighten things up a little bit now that…
Kristen: Great Scott!
Michael: Great Scott, this chapter!
Kristen: Chapter is heavy!
Michael: By the way, listeners, it was Back to the Future Day just before this recording.
[Alison laughs]
Michael: So if you’re wondering why we’re sticking all those references in there, that’s why.
Kristen: Yeah. Sorry.
Michael: But for now, we’re signing off.
[Show music begins]
Michael: I’m Michael Harle.
Kristen: I’m Kristen Keys.
Alison: And I’m Alison Siggard. Thank you for listening to Episode 161 of Alohomora!
Kristen: Open the Dumblefour.
Michael: Three become four!
[Show music continues]
