Transcripts

Transcript – Episode 111

[Show music begins]

Michael Harle: This is Episode 111 of Alohomora! for November 22, 2014.

[Show music continues]

Michael: Greetings, Alohomora! listeners and welcome back to our global reread of Harry Potter. I’m Michael Harle.

Eric Scull: I’m Eric Scull.

Alison Siggard: And I’m Alison Siggard. And today’s guest is author Mindee Arnett. Thanks for joining us, Mindee!

Mindee Arnett: Thank you! I am completely thrilled to be here.

Alison and Michael: Tell us a little bit about yourself.

[Alison, Michael, and Mindee laugh]

Mindee: I write young adult fantasy and science fiction. I have the Arkwell Academy series, which is our murder mystery set in a magical school. And I also write Avalon, which is about a group of teenage spaceship thieves. I am also a ritualistic listener to the Harry Potter audiobooks. I get through them about twice a year, so all of my pronunciation will be the way Jim Dale says it on the audiobooks, so I’m just going to apologize for that now.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Michael: Wow, she’s definitely qualified to be here.

[Eric, Michael, and Mindee laugh]

Eric: Oh, Mindee, we always ask this of our special guest, but what is your Hogwarts House?

Mindee: I am Ravenclaw all the way.

Eric: Of course. Could have guessed, could have guessed.

Mindee: I was Sorted into it in Pottermore, and it was probably very genuinely close to what I would be if Hogwarts were real.

Alison: It’s not real?

Eric: Oh, it’s one of those things where it’s like between asleep and awake.

Michael: It’s as real as you make it.

Mindee: If it’s real, I’m going to be very upset because I didn’t get invited, so…

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Michael: There you go, there you go.

Eric: We’re all pretty upset about that. This week we will be talking about Order of the Phoenix Chapter 33, titled “Fight and Flight,” so be sure to read that chapter before proceeding with our main discussion.

Alison: But before we get into Chapter 33, we’re going to recap our comments from Chapter 32. We had a lot of good comments this week from [the] last episode, so we just had to pick a few, of course, because that always happens. But there were several trends going [on] throughout the comments, and the first one was Harry’s saving people thing, and our first comment comes from HufflePug, who says,

“I don’t think the saving people thing is really a result of selfishness. Whenever someone accuses him of that, he blows up and tells them that he didn’t choose for his life to be that way. Yes, Harry often reacts to danger like he needs to be responsible for others’ safety. But instead of a selfish ‘I’m a hero’ kind of thing, I think the saving people thing mostly stems from his intense fear of losing loved ones. He’s already lost his three biggest parental figures at school for the time being. He thinks about his parents a lot…We all fear death, but I think it’s a little bit more intense than normal for Harry, who has already been through so much and can’t bear the thought of losing someone else. It’s hard to think that someone you love is being tortured without being there to do anything about it. That doesn’t justify his impulsiveness, of course, but it’s really understandable that he would act so strongly on his feelings in a situation like that.”

I like this one because I think it’s true. Harry never really thinks about what he’s doing, does he? But he’s saving people for saving people.

Mindee: Right, and I think that’s what the point is. I was listening to your podcast last week when you all discussed this, and there was a conversation about… in the end, when he makes the decision, it’s [a] completely selfless act. I think it has more to do with him taking the time to make the decision and to not go off all half cock like he does on all the earlier books, and I think that’s where his character transforms, more so than it being about… because he’s noble in wanting to save him all the way through, and he’s willing to sacrifice himself from the beginning, but I think it has more to do with making that conscious choice rather than just running around and jumping into the fray.

Eric: Yeah, and this upcoming chapter is just another example of how things just happen in front of him, and he’s reacting, but it’s crazy when you think about like the life of Harry in the early books. He doesn’t have that time for reflection like Mindee was saying.

Alison: All right. Our next comment comes from skgai, who says,

“I am still puzzled over the hero aspect of the subtext. Hermione claims Harry has a ‘saving-people thing’ and then uses Harry’s rescue of [Gabrielle] as an argument for her proposition. Harry then recalls Ron describing that situation as ‘acting the hero.’ How, in any way, is what Harry did in Goblet of Fire a bad decision? And how is ‘acting the hero’ different [than] ‘being the hero[‘?] They both require the same sacrifice. …What is negative about it? Furthermore, how is any of Harry’s decisions to save people different [than] his decision in Deathly Hallows? I know Rowling wants us to see a difference, but to me there is none. Harry, over and over again, reacts to injustice and reacts absolutely to absolute injustice.”

Michael: That’s an interesting thing to bring up, the decisions in Deathly Hallows, because when I think of Harry’s decisions here, I don’t probably think forward to what he’s going to do.

Eric: So last week, we got into a discussion about Harry vs. Harry in Book 7, and that’s what fuels the second half of this comment in terms of him actually becoming a hero, but honestly, I wondered the same thing and just didn’t bring it up in the episode last week because in Goblet of Fire, Hermione’s whole point – the way she presents it to Harry – about him having a “saving people thing,” hinges on the idea that Gabrielle really wasn’t in danger. And I recall talking about that when we discussed that chapter – this is “The Second Task” in Goblet of Fire – about whether or not the charges were in danger because the riddle from the eggs implied heavily that they were, but we just thought, “Oh, yeah, it wouldn’t be in Dumbledore’s character to kill them,” but I mean, the only way anybody has any weight or any shade to throw at Harry here is if they really weren’t in danger and if it were widely known that they weren’t in any danger at all for him to then have gone and saved her. But he believed it was real, and who can blame him? So he was a hero then. I think he wasn’t just acting one.

Alison: I agree with that.

Michael: Yeah, no, we talked at length about the thing with Gabrielle, and I think we all came to the agreement that it was weird that everybody else reacted to Harry doing that the way they did because of the way that the poem was phrased by the merpeople, so it was perfectly reasonable for him to think that they were going to die.

[Alison, Eric, and Michael laugh]

Michael: Because really, “We’ve taken the thing you care about most!” Plus, considering the things that have happened in past years at Hogwarts, which have been Harry’s only experiences at Hogwarts, every single year, horrible things happen, and something is hanging over his head that year, even if it may not be directly in that task. It does end up, of course, being in the third task. So his concerns aren’t completely unjustified. So I think… because a lot of the comments here are trying to justify that maybe Hogwarts has given Harry some psychological damage with why he thinks he needs to save people, and I think that’s perfectly reasonable. I do appreciate Hermione being there to ground Harry, and I do get annoyed that he doesn’t listen to her in this instance, but at the same time, the fact that, really, because of the way this has all gone down and the perfect timing of everything, the perfect storm, we have no proof that Sirius isn’t okay, so when I first read the book. I was all for it. I figured Kreacher saying what he said to Harry in the fireplace was enough proof for me, so…

Eric: Yeah. Yeah, and it’s all a big case of misdirection in the end.

Mindee: Right, and I actually felt a little bit differently. I feel when I was reading the books the first time, I think by the time you get to Book 5, you realize that pretty much everything Hermione says is right…

[Alison, Eric, and Michael laugh]

Mindee: … with the only exception, I think, being where she doesn’t take Draco seriously in Book 6, which we haven’t even gotten to yet. So any time Hermione is being the voice of reason, I’m going, “That’s really what’s going to happen.”. So for me, I was like, “Harry, what are you doing? This is so obviously a trap.” Hermione is just that voice of reason through the whole series, so…

Eric: Well, he listens to her. In the last chapter, he does go to the fire and screwed that whole plan up. He allows her to delay him for several hours, so he kind of listens.

Mindee: Right. No, but with J.K. Rowling’s misdirection through all the books, so the moment she says, “Look over here. It’s so bad,” I know that’s something’s coming from the right, and Hermione tends to be that compass of where it’s coming from, so… but not that I didn’t enjoy it completely, but just…

Eric: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Michael: And like I said, I think the reason I fell for it just as much as Harry did the first time was… and I knew something wasn’t right, but I still wanted Harry to go, and I really felt that Kreacher saying what he said was just definitive proof because I think, as you guys were talking about, Rowling’s misdirection, she had built up house-elves so well that we figure Kreacher had to be telling the truth. Because of the rules of how house-elves work, and of course we didn’t realize that Kreacher was double playing people.

Eric: Yeah, or just… well, his family was on both sides.

Michael: Yeah, but he had an extended family too.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah.

Michael: There was a clause in the house-elf contract.

Eric: Maybe the Black family tree should have been pointed out a little earlier.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Not that it had its own chapter or anything in this book…

Alison: [laughs] Well, speaking of Hermione, that brings us [to] the next comment that was talked about a lot this week, and that was a lot of Hermione love. But we also got a little bit of Hermione doubt.

Michael: Ooh.

Alison: Well, as in doubting Hermione. skgai writes,

“Hermione in this chapter (like the entire book) does exactly what Voldemort does, only for ‘good.’ In her confrontation with Umbridge, Hermione uses Umbridge’s fears against her. She does precisely what Voldemort is doing to Harry at this exact time. Take what someone cares about ([s]elf-importance, belittling Dumbledore, power) and make that person believe they will [lose] it unless they do exactly what you want them to.”

Alison: I find this so fascinating that Hermione is being a manipulator at this moment.

Mindee: Right. And a foil. Does it make Hermione wrong for doing this because she’s doing it for good or…? That’s a wonderful comment.

Michael: Absolutely. Well, and as we were saying before, it speaks to Hermione’s smarts because if Voldemort is a smart person overall, so to say that Hermione is… because this has already come up in this book, where she’s done a Voldemort thing where she uses the Galleons that are enchanted to inform the Order about meetings, and she based it off the tattoos from the Death Eaters. So yeah, she is subverting that way of thinking to use it for their side.

Eric: Ohh.

Alison: Interesting.

Michael: Hermione is on it, you guys.

Eric: Now I see where all that Hermione/Draco fan fiction comes from.

Mindee: Oh, gosh. Oh no. Oh no.

[Eric, Michael, and Mindee laugh]

Eric: Maybe not. Maybe not.

Alison: No, no. Ugh, this is why I love her. Because she does things like this.

[Michael laughs]

Alison: Anyway. However, we got another view from Raven, who says,

“I am getting a bit tired of the Hermione worship. She’s brilliant and a great character, but she’s no Mary Jane. She’s not right about everything all the time, and she’s often quite annoying. …I love her character but she’s not perfect, nor is she always right.”

It hurts me to say.

Eric and Michael: Whoa.

Michael: Raven. Slow down. But you’re right. But still.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Michael: Slow down.

Eric: Yeah, there’s… well, who’s the Mary Jane that she refernces?

Michael: Mary Jane. She means a Mary Jane character. A Mary Jane is a perfect character.

Eric: Ohh.

Mindee: Right, with no flaws.

Eric: Ohh. Not to be confused with Mary Sue. But…

Mindee: Right, I think she probably meant a Mary Sue.

Michael: I think that might be what she meant.

Eric: No, well Mary Sue is a representation of yourself, so it tends to be…

Michael: There’s an element of that too. But yeah, Mary Sue can stand for the same thing.

Eric: Interesting. Okay the… yeah, but I… look, we’ll find in this coming chapter again how Hermione doesn’t quite think everything through, how she is wrong in certain ways in certain places and times, and I think that’ll be… so I think we’ll suspend disbelief about Hermione’s perfection until the chapter discussion.

Michael: Well – and I think Mindee mentioned too… and that’s perfect for this particular comment, but Hermione does get kind of annoying in Half Blood Prince. And because she’s not listening to Harry, and some people argue, and we’ll get there, but that that’s a consequence of Harry’s behavior in these chapters. But no, when we pile the love on Hermione, I don’t think we’re saying that she’s perfect. I think in a way we actually like her because she’s not.

Eric: She’s still the MVP of the dream team. [laughs]

Alison: Yes. That’s my girl.

Michael: Yes. I think we’ve even questioned a lot of things about Hermione’s shining moments, like her stuff with house-elf rights and how she approaches it, things that I think heretofore a lot of people do cheer her on for, but we have picked apart some flaws in her approach to things and definitely in her approach to how she interacts with Harry and Ron from time to time.

Alison: But I definitely think that’s what makes her such a great character, is moments where she does these things. It’s really this competition between her head and her heart, and they’re fighting each other out, and so that’s what… you can see her using both, and I think that’s what makes her such a great character, is it makes her so well rounded and so much more dimensional that she has both these sides.

Eric: Oh yeah. I think perhaps maybe an indicator… just trying to leave this comment behind to move on, but I think perhaps what might lend some insight into Hermione, whether she’s evil or not…

[Alison, Eric, and Michael laugh]

Eric: … is the fact that she cannot cry. She is pretending to cry, but no tears are coming from her eyes. Harry notices this in the last chapter.

Michael: Oh. [laughs]

Eric: And maybe it would mean she was more evil if she could really cry…

[Mindee laughs]

Eric: … to heighten the deception.

Mindee: Right, I will say, “I don’t think there’s any evilness going on.” I would say that you could make an argument about nature versus nurture between Hermione and Voldemort. So Hermione could have been Voldemort if she had grown up in that situation without parents, and that was more what I meant in terms of letting them be foil characters. So she’s really brilliant, but she had loving parents, presumably, and she had that nature argument going on.

Michael: Well, just I have to say – last thing, I just have to say – is that Hermione… I think the reason I champion highlighting Hermione still is that, as much love as she gets in the fandom, her little moments are so important, and they’re a lot that I think we forget about. And really, quite honestly, I do joke about this with people, but sometimes I feel it’s totally sincere to say, “You could re-title the books after her.”

[Alison laughs]

Michael: Because she does a lot. And sometimes we forget just how much she does.

Alison: Well, thanks for that. We also had lots of other good discussions on the main site about Umbridge’s character. There was lots of Luna love, some discussion about Snape’s actions, both with Occlumency and when Harry tries to warn him, and a lot more. So if you want to, go check out the discussion on alohomora.mugglenet.com.

Michael: But for now, we turn to our responses from last week’s Podcast Question of the Week. And that question was, “In this chapter, Harry and Hermione go into Professor Umbridge’s locked office with the knife Sirius gave Harry so that Harry can use the private Floo Network to check on Sirius. Umbridge ends up capturing them, along with a few others, with the help of the Inquisitorial Squad. Malfoy retrieves Snape, and before Snape leaves, Harry gives him the message about Padfoot being captured. What do you think would’ve happened if Malfoy weren’t asked to retrieve Snape? Would Snape still have been a part of the scene and been able to warn the Order about the trio’s disappearance? Would the Order have even show[n] up [at] the Ministry of Magic?” So there were actually a lot of pretty interesting responses. There was an overall agreement that the Order would have figured it out and Snape would have figured things out but perhaps later than in the book. But a very fascinating response came from Bill White on our main site, and Bill said,

“I think that if [S]nape hadn’t been called that maybe, just maybe, Harry would have remembered the mirror and contacted Sirius that way and therefore debunked Voldemort’s plans. If Harry [had] remembered the mirror, then there would have been no reason to notify Snape.”

Michael: Now, of course, keep in mind that Harry doesn’t actually know that the present is a mirror.

Eric: Oh, because he hasn’t opened it.

Michael: Nope, because he threw it at the bottom of his trunk. But it’s an interesting thing because at least he might have remembered that Sirius gave him a gift. I am inclined to think no.

Alison: I do too.

Michael: But I would love it if that had happened. Maybe this is more of a wish fulfillment comment than anything.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Michael: But I don’t… because the idea, of course, of the mirror being there is later when Harry does find it, there is that realization for the reader that if Harry had found it, of course, things would not have, perhaps, gone down the same way. But with that wish fulfillment in tow, there has to be the possibility that Harry even would have found the mirror or remembered it. And I don’t think he would have or even thought of it as something useful, so…

Alison: How would he have gotten away to go find it?

Michael: Oh, gotten away from all the…?

Eric: Yeah. I mean, the pressing issue is that Umbridge is about to [use the Cruciatus Curse on] him. I think she would have gotten to that if Snape weren’t in the picture. She would have gotten to that just as quick.

Michael: Harry is really good with Accio these days, though. Maybe he could have summoned it.

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Michael: But we had a very interesting set of comments from WizardorWhat and Saiyangirl. They actually weren’t in response to each other but they both came up with different results for what would happen with Snape and Sirius in the scenarios.

Eric: And now you’ve pitted them together.

Michael: I have.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: It says in the show document, “WizardorWhat versus Saiyangirl.”

Michael: Oh, yeah. I’m making a brawl out of this because they did it but unintentionally. But WizardorWhat said,

“The Order would have arrived later, in which case the kids might have been in trouble, and maybe Sirius wouldn’t have ended up being left alone duelling Bellatrix. So… dead trio, but live Sirius… then the story wouldn’t have been nearly so good – which is presumably why Rowling had the story pan out the way it did!”

Whereas Saiyangirl suggested,

“Snape would notice Umbridge having left the castle and not returned, and given all the Occlumency lessons and what he knew from Dumbledore, I expect the Department of Mysteries and Voldemort having played some kind of trick would be the first thing to enter his mind. All that would really be different would be the timing, I reckon. The Order might have been even later. Or he may not have taunted Sirius as much when alerting the Order, not knowing Harry was under the delusion that he was saving his godfather. But Sirius was looking for an excuse to go out and fight either way, so I doubt that would’ve made a difference for his fate.”

So with these two things in mind, do you think that Sirius could have potentially survived by this minor difference?

Alison and Mindee: No.

Michael: No?

Alison: Just because for the overall plot of the series, he had to die.

[Eric laughs]

Alison: And I hate saying it but he had to. And it hurts but it’s the truth.

Eric: I don’t know. I never, ever agreed with, “Let’s kill all the boy’s mentors before he can be a hero.” I’ve never, ever agreed with that.

Michael: Really?

Eric: I wanted Harry to be absolutely happy with his godfather ever since Book 3, and when that didn’t happen, and then it didn’t happen, and then it didn’t happen, and then Sirius died, I just felt terrible.

Michael: Well, and I think, in a way… because we’ve really examined this more than any reread I’ve ever done with Order… but I think the way that Sirius is built up in the fifth book to really be shown from the get-go that he’s actually probably not a very good caretaker for Harry.

Eric: Yeah. So he deserves to get it?

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: That’s a little harsh.

Michael: In literary terms, that means he has to die. [laughs]

Mindee: Now, wait. He’s still better than the Dursleys. I mean, come on. And they didn’t die.

Eric: Yeah, yeah… and they all survived.

Mindee: Correct.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: No, I think… getting back to this comment, though, with Sirius being alive; as much as I want that to be true, I’m not sure… there’s something to it in Saiyangirl’s comment about how Snape taunts Sirius; how we find out later that he taunted him about that whole situation. And maybe he would not have laid it on so thickly if he weren’t aware of Harry’s specific delusion. But at the same time, Snape – sorry, Sirius – has been cooped up all year and I highly doubt the rest of the Order would have been able to take the time to make sure that he stayed home on this outing which was clearly to save Harry and his friends.

Alison: Yeah.

Michael: Oh, yeah. I think the end result, yes, is Sirius does go to the Ministry, unfortunately, but…

Mindee: But it could have been someone else dying in his place. I don’t think the issue is that he went. I think the issue is that he was fighting Bellatrix.

Eric: Yeah, I would have to definitely reread the next two chapters to really determine what I think about what circumstances led to it specifically being Sirius and Bellatrix alone in that room.

Michael: Mhm. And our last comment from the Podcast Question of the Week comes from Hufflepug, and again, a lot of the commenters were wondering whether the Order would get there on time or not. A lot of you seem to agree that they would come later, which of course would leave an opening for Voldemort to potentially kill Harry, since Voldemort never seems to get to do that for time constraints.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: And Hufflepug said,

“What would have happened to Harry if Voldemort had used the Killing Curse on him in the Department of Mysteries[?] Would he have experienced an otherworldly scene like the one in Deathly Hallows, perhaps with his parents filling Dumbledore’s role? Or would he have not woken up because it wasn’t a willing sacrifice?”

And we’ve pondered this before about different occasions where Voldemort, if he had stopped monologuing, would have actually just killed Harry, and what would have happened.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: I don’t really… these always leave me just speechless because I don’t really know what would occur. The big question here, too, is whether Harry would be given a choice to come back to life.

Eric: I would need to read… do we know why he was given that choice? In order for the Horcrux to be destroyed, he had to die willingly, right? Is that…?

Mindee: Right.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: Okay, so…

Alison: Has that been confirmed?

Michael: I thought the Horcrux could be destroyed the way it was, but the dying willingly, I thought, was the thing that gave him the chance to… I don’t know.

Eric: Come back?

[Michael laughs]

Alison: I thought the dying willingly just protected everyone else.

Eric: Ooh.

Mindee: Right, yeah. I mean, it’s ambiguous. I don’t think that it’s stated anywhere specifically, even that he actually dies. I think that’s up to the reader.

Eric: Right, right, right.

Mindee: I choose to believe that he did, but I think… maybe the fact that another piece of him got to die at the same time – the actual Horcrux – that maybe that’s what gave the ability.

Michael: Mhm.

Mindee: So in that case, yes, I think that if the same happened here, he probably would be able to come back. But then we would only have five books and that just can’t happen.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: Yeah. Seven is the most magically powerful number. You’ve got to have seven books.

Mindee: Right.

Michael: I’d like to think an awesome battle between Harry and Voldemort, like the one that I wanted and never got, would actually go down.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: No, only Dumbledore is equipped with the right level of magic.

Michael: Yeah. Harry wouldn’t be competent enough in fifth year to battle Voldemort.

Alison: Nope.

Michael: I just figure Voldemort would just be in shock if Harry just stood back up after the whole dramatic scene.

[Michael and Mindee laugh]

Eric: Yeah. Voldemort would die of shock. End of the series.

[Everyone laughs]

Alison: That would be less dramatic.

Michael: There were a lot of great comments that came in for the Podcast Question. I wanted to shout out to DolphinPatronus, ISeeThestrals, Olivia Underwood, and SnugglesWithNifflers…

[Eric laughs]

Michael: … for also contributing to our comment section this week. Thank you so much. And if you guys want to check out what some of our other commenters contributed, make sure and head over to the Alohomora! main site.

Eric: All right, guys. You ready for it?

Michael and Mindee: Yes.

Alison: Yay! Woo!

Eric: Now it’s time to discuss the chapter!

Alison and Michael: Yay.

[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 33 intro begins]

Umbridge: Chapter 33, “Fight and Flight.”

[Sound of centaurs running]

Umbridge: No, no, no! Unhand me! I am Senior Undersecretary Dolores Jane Umbridge!

[Order of the Phoenix Chapter 33 intro ends]

[Michael laughs]

Eric: So in this chapter, which we get to now, which is… wait, what is this called? I’m so bad.

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: “Fight and Flight.”

Eric: “Fight and Flight” or “Fight or Flight”?

Alison: “Fight and Flight” because…

Eric: Because “fight or flight” is a thing. Okay.

Alison: Yes.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: In this chapter, “Fight and Flight,” Hermione leads Harry and Umbridge into the Forbidden Forest, where they meet the proud centaurs who drive Umbridge away but turn on Harry and Hermione. In the nick of time, Grawp arrives and saves them. Ron, Luna, Neville, and Ginny have escaped the Inquisitorial Squad and meet up with Harry and Hermione, and they all depart the forest for the Ministry, riding Thestrals. So super action-packed chapter. It’s shorter than the last one but just as complex.

Michael: This chapter… [laughs]

Eric: Why? What? What is it?

Michael: It’s so… ugh. This chapter is so tied-in with Chapter 30, as we’ve talked before, which I have great animosity for because of the Grawp stuff. And it’s funny rereading this chapter over again. I’m just like, “God, this chapter is ridiculous! So many insane things happen and nobody is thinking clearly in this chapter.” [laughs]

Mindee: Right.

Alison: It goes so fast.

Michael: It’s such a mess, so…

Eric: Okay.

Mindee: Well, then you have characters acting out of character, which is the only part that bothers me about the chapter, but I totally agree with you on that point here.

Michael: Mhm.

Eric: Well, feel free to bring all your thoughts up as we go along.

Michael: Oh, we will.

Mindee: Oh, yeah.

[Alison, Michael, and Mindee laugh]

Eric: Yeah. Don’t be shy, guys. You all hated this chapter that I loved. Okay.

Mindee: I didn’t hate it; I love every chapter, but…

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Oh, no, no, no. Yeah, okay.

Alison: I don’t hate this one, Eric.

Mindee: There are just certain points where I’m like, “This doesn’t make any sense!” But other than that…

Michael: We’ll get there. [laughs]

Eric: Okay. Well, this is perfect, then. We’ll have a great discussion. So let’s start it off. As they are going down the Hogwarts corridor, the corridor outside of Umbridge’s office, and out onto the grounds, it becomes clear that Hermione is continuing to play on Umbridge’s fears and her dislikes to sell the story. There’s this moment where Umbridge is like, “Oh, you’re hiding the weapon in Hagrid’s cabin?” And Hermione is like, “Oh, no. He’d totally set that thing off by accident.” And Umbridge is like, “Yeah, he would so do that. He’s so stupid.”

Alison: Oh my God. I hate that line.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: Yeah.

Alison: I’m with Harry on that one, where he wants to turn around and strangle her.

Eric: Yeah, but Hermione started it, so…

[Michael laughs]

Alison: Correct.

Eric: I don’t know how you feel about that.

Mindee: But Hermione started it to manipulate Umbridge, so we’re going to give Hermione a pass on that role-playing.

Eric: I guess. It’s just really intelligent, what Hermione is doing, as always. I mean, that is… it’s a continuation of what we were talking about in the previous chapter, though, about how Hermione is playing on Umbridge’s fears and paranoia in order to gain the upper hand.

Mindee: Right.

Eric: Her plan is kind of reckless, though. Now, Harry notices they’re going into the forest and they’re not going toward Grawp; they’re actually going toward Aragog. And there’s this moment where Harry really wants to tell Hermione, “Hey, what the heck? There’s some dangerous stuff here. You don’t know where you’re going and this is going to be dangerous for us.” And Hermione, on the other hand, is stomping loudly, cracking twigs and branches, shouting back to them… she’s cool, but I feel like she is very easily in over her head in this plan, so…

Alison: She did not think this plan all the way through. [laughs]

Eric: How much control do you think she has over these events of what happens in this chapter, moving in?

Michael: Girl’s got no control.

Alison: Oh, none.

Michael: [laughs] Mindee, I actually want to ask you about this because this is something we talked about and something that a lot of… I’ve heard, actually, different writers say how they would’ve handled this. Because the movie of Order of the Phoenix tries to retool this, where Hermione is actually leading Umbridge to Grawp on purpose.

Mindee: Right.

Michael: And Grawp just happens not to be there. Which, in my personal opinion, was exactly what I thought Hermione was trying to do in this chapter when I first read it, and I was very surprised when it ended up being she was going the opposite way.

Mindee: Right.

Michael: And other writers have said that… I’ve heard a screenplay writer say that she would have dropped Grawp completely from the story, and just let it be the centaurs; all about them. What are your thoughts on how these chapters go down with this?

Mindee: I definitely agree that Hermione going to the centaurs makes the most sense, and the reason being is because she’s there in the earlier chapter when they’re talking about, “We won’t harm foals. They’re okay.” So she knows ahead of time that that’s a card she can play, whereas Grawp is a complete unknown. She has no idea how he’s going to react. He could just as easily kill her as he could kill Umbridge.

Michael: Mmm.

Mindee: So the fact that she’s trying to rouse the centaurs makes the most sense. And it’s Harry that’s thinking that she’s going to go to Grawp. At one point he actually says that. In terms of Grawp saving them… I’m okay with that. He’s in the book, like it or not, and it’s a way out. I’m not sure what J.K. would have done differently in terms of getting them away from the centaurs because the last thing we want is for Harry and Hermione to be hauled back to their herd, or wherever they exist, and experiencing the same thing as…

Eric: Yeah.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: So yeah, we like Grawp when he saves their lives.

Mindee: Right, and I’m indifferent about Grawp. He’s a tool. He’s a tool that serves the plot in this case. Do I think he…?

[Everyone laughs]

Alison and Eric: Grawp is a tool.

Mindee: You can play that both ways. Yes, pun intended.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Mindee: So I’m not… there could’ve been a hundred different ways she could have gotten out of that aside from Grawp, but I definitely think the book had it right and the movie definitely did not.

Michael: Mm.

Eric: But before it gets better, it gets worse, is the issue that I have at the moment. And this is just so… they end up confronting the centaurs, which may or may not have been Hermione’s plan all along. Maybe she was really going to meet Aragog.

[Michael laughs]

Alison: Oh, gosh.

Eric: But she met up with the centaurs. Umbridge’s prejudice, and her pride… I had to throw a little Pride and Prejudice reference there.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: Umbridge’s pride and prejudice gets the better of her, and she is carried away. And this is, again… it’s just brilliant. Umbridge asserts her authority for the Ministry, which of course, is the sorest of all subjects for the centaurs because they believe that they’re far more intelligent than humans. And she calls it “our forest” instead of “your forest,” and she makes all the mistakes that it’s possible to make. But as soon as she’s carried away, Hermione thanks them and is like, “Oh, we’re here because I hoped that you would drive them away,” and then immediately the centaurs turn on her and are like, “Oh, you wanted us to do your dirty work. Wait, you’re no better. We have to carry you away, too.” And so I think it’s pretty clear that this is going south very fast. And my question to you guys is: Should Hermione have known better?

Mindee: Oh, absolutely. I have strong opinions on this, not to jump in. But when I said earlier that we have characters acting out of character, this is a classic moment. So Hermione is brilliant and she knows how to manipulate Umbridge. And she’s seen the centaurs, she’s absorbed their behavior, and then she turns right around and does the dumbest thing ever.

[Michael laughs]

Mindee: It’s dumb and it’s way below Hermione. Now, thanking them I get, but it’s adding that on, “Oh, we’d hoped that you would save us.” I mean thanking them; okay, maybe that’s just part of her polite, good nature or whatever.

Eric: Yeah.

Mindee: But definitely at this moment I feel like we’re breaking character a little bit when that happens.

Eric: Well, creature welfare is kind of her thing. They had the Thestral Defense Against the Dark Arts – sorry, I mean Divination – teacher for a while. And I don’t know. I don’t remember that chapter all that well, but I feel like she just should have known that it was… I mean, seeing how irate they got over the things that they as a people hold dear to themselves… she really walked right into this huge trap all of a sudden, immediately when it was almost safe.

Mindee: Right.

Alison: Well, but Hermione never had Firenze. She dropped Divination.

Eric: Mmm.

Alison: So she hadn’t ever been exposed to him and I just… this moment… I feel like it just adds to the seriousness of the situation that Hermione is so panicked that she’s not even saying things clearly the way she should. She’s not thinking things through all the way. Harry is acting irrationally. Everyone is going crazy because of the gravity of the situation and no one is quite sure what to do.

Michael: Yeah, well, while I usually… Mindee, I pretty much agree with everything you said about Hermione’s behavior.

Mindee: Thank you.

Michael: But I guess to argue the other side, Alison, I agree with you on Hermione because we have seen her lose her head when she gets into very serious situations sometimes. I always think back to Sorcerer’s Stone when she says, “There’s no wood to build a fire!”

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Eric: Yeah, yeah.

Michael: She’s got a wand… and she has done that throughout the series on random occasions.

Alison: She’s done that in this book already.

Michael: Yeah, she’s done it here a few times, but the other…

Mindee: Well, are we saying that she lost her head because they were fighting, or do you think she’s lost her head right from the beginning of when Umbridge broke into the room?

Eric: That’s what I want to say. I want to say her trying to save Harry and herself – and Ron isn’t even there – but I think that she’s in this mode where she’s using her intelligence to save their skins and nothing else matters.

Michael: Yeah. I think she lost her head earlier because… the thing that I think now, thinking ahead, in the Half-Blood Prince when she says, “Oh, I’m going to go into Borgin and Burkes and look at the necklace,” and then she goes in and she’s a horrible actress.

[Alison and Michael laugh]

Mindee: Hey! But why is that good? She’s just acting really, really good. By good I mean bad, leading Umbridge into the forest by saying these horrible things about Hagrid that we know Hermione does not actually think.

Michael: Right.

Mindee: At least I assume she does not actually think that. So, you see what I’m saying? We have two different character motivations going on here. We have the character who fumbles and who can’t act for anything, and then we have the character brilliant enough to fake her tears and to say something scathing, which is actually the word J.K. uses. She “scathingly” says that Hagrid is this really dumb person that would set it off.

Michael: Yeah.

Mindee: So there’s just kind of a contradiction going on there, which is what bothers me the most about her saying that. I think that the centaurs could have reacted that way without her saying it. I don’t even think it was necessary.

Michael: Hmm…

Mindee: They still could have been in danger by saying, “These two were here and they were with her, so they’re guilty by default.” And you can have the same thing happen…

Alison: I agree with that.

Mindee: … without her being so utterly stupid…

[Michael laughs]

Mindee: … when she was just so brilliant five minutes before.

Eric: Well, that kind of just raises a situation where they now need to be rescued again.

Mindee: Right.

Eric: They were first rescued by the centaurs, and then Hermione had to say that thing, and then immediately they’re in danger again. And it’s cool because it tugs at the suspense, but it only lasts for a page and then Grawp shows up and saves them. So it’s like there’s this extra complication – they weren’t going to Grawp originally.

Michael: Yeah.

Eric: He just heard them shouting apparently and ran, and he’s of course looking for Hagrid. That is established in the chapter that he misses Hagrid and he’s heartbroken – he’s a heartbroken giant. It’s quite sad.

Alison: Right.

Michael: See? And that, though – what you said, Eric is exactly why I have a problem with this – with the way that that’s written and why I don’t think Grawp is necessary, because it is Hermione saying that that sets them off. I assume that possibly, as Mindee said, they might have actually just said that Harry and Hermione were culpable because they were with Umbridge once they turned their attention to them. But just as easily, especially with what had been established two chapters ago, the centaurs could have said, “Oh, these are foals; leave them here in the forest,” and gone on their way. Because the centaurs really don’t seem that interested in them to begin with anyway. And with that, you get Hermione and Harry out of the forest and back on track. And the only reason I feel that Grawp comes along, that we see later, is that… they get their blood on him.

Mindee: Right.

Michael: Or his blood on them and then…

Eric: Oh yeah, that’s…

Mindee: Right.

Eric: That was really interesting too, and I had forgotten about that. We’ll get to that in a little bit, but let’s talk about Grawp some more.

Michael: Mhm.

[Alison laughs]

Eric: Michael’s favorite character…

Michael: Gah!

Eric: … in the whole series.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: So Grawp does arrive – I know it gets a little bit more complicated than it maybe needs to be – but Grawp does arrive and save them. I actually felt bad for Grawp reading this because he gets a lot of arrows in his face and he is too dumb – I think that’s not offensive – he just doesn’t possess the intelligence to get the arrows out. He breaks them off but the heads sink deeper into his skin and there’s blood everywhere – he’s bleeding all over Harry and Hermione. It’s a bit sad but he does succeed in driving them away, not without injury to himself. So my question is… I’m starting to feel… when my heart feels bad for Grawp, I then blame Hermione who has hatched this plan to begin with. And you do feel bad, kind of, for the centaurs too who’ve had their pride injured and really have had to fight Grawp all year at great personal expense to them. So is this like some form [of] abuse for Hermione to have taken Umbridge into the forest? Is it abuse on the forest creatures? Because she is in a way throwing her problems on to the centaurs. Even if you weren’t this mystical race who is so proud and thinks you just want to ride on their back all the time, isn’t that basically what Hermione did by taking Umbridge to them in the first place?

Alison: I think that would depend on whether that was her goal…

Michael: It was her goal.

Mindee: Yeah, I would say I think it’s her goal. I don’t think Grawp was supposed to come into the picture at all actually.

Michael: No, he wasn’t.

Mindee: That was just a random plot event that happens to save them.

Eric: So then it becomes… hey, here’s Umbridge. She uncontrollably hates half-breeds…

Mindee: Right.

Eric: Let’s go introduce her to the centaurs. And the reason this is such a big deal to me is because what happens later – I mentioned this last episode, too. What happens later is we find the traumatized Umbridge – she’s in the hospital wing or something – and you couldn’t possibly feel bad for her because she’s so evil and we hate her in this book. But you almost should feel bad for her because she has been through an ordeal that we can’t even begin to imagine. So… I don’t know, I’m torn about the practice of what Hermione’s plan really means in the grand scheme of what she has just done here by delivering Umbridge to these people, knowing full well that Umbridge would screw it up and get carried away.

Michael: You know, there’s a mixture of feelings here on this one for me because Dumbledore has stated before that you’ll always find help at Hogwarts – Hogwarts seems to always find a way to help its students. And even though he tells the students not to go into the forest, I think he fully expects them to every time he tells them not to.

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Eric: Kind of mixed messages?

Michael: Well… and he sends them in there for detention all the time. So really, the forest is kind of presented as a resource – not really outright, but it’s a resource and Hermione uses it as such. Now there is – I think you’re right, though – there is that question of, was it ethically right for her to do this, to use the centaurs? Because even though she insists that that’s not what she meant – the way they perceive it is not perhaps how she meant – it’s still offensive to them.

Mindee: Right.

Michael: So there is… like Mindee said, Hermione was astronomically stupid in that particular moment to not think that was going to be a consequence. [laughs]

Mindee: Right. She should have just not said anything. She should have just been like… “Oh!” and played it.

Eric: Well, let’s pretend that didn’t happen. But Grawp still intercedes because he hears the commotion and Grawp gets attacked by the centaurs. I know you guys don’t care about Grawp at all, but…

[Michael and Alison laugh]

Alison: Oh, gosh!

Eric: I want to say that is injury to Grawp, so shouldn’t Hermione be culpable? Even if she didn’t take them to Grawp, Grawp gets involved, becomes injured fighting these centaurs – that’s on Hermione. Any injuries he sustains in chasing after the centaurs, that’s her fault.

Michael: I’m already perturbed by that piece because Hermione, Harry, and Ron promised Hagrid that they’d take care of Grawp and they haven’t.

Mindee: Right.

Michael: This is the first promise they don’t fulfill. They’ve left Grawp alone for about a week or two without going to visit him, so they’ve already done Grawp wrong by this point. So yeah, in that respect, that wasn’t very nice.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Okay. [laughs]

Alison: I still think it comes down to Hermione’s intent. Because… I don’t think she intended for anyone to get hurt. I think she just mostly meant to scare Umbridge and get her to run off and maybe get lost in the forest…

Michael: Yeah. That’s probably…

Eric: Yeah.

Alison: … as a way to get rid of her more than anything. So I honestly don’t think Hermione was trying to get anyone hurt. And I think that could be one of the reasons why she panics, because all of a sudden there’s arrows flying, Grawp is knocking centaurs over, Umbridge is getting carried away, she and Harry are getting picked up, and nobody knows what’s going on anymore. [laughs]

Michael: Well, yeah. And the funny thing is when Umbridge casts spells at the centaurs and talks to them, Hermione by her reaction did not expect her to do that.

Mindee: No, because Harry is stupid.

[Michael laughs]

Mindee: Which is another moment where you’re going, “Really?” I own horses so I’m just going to tell you now, centaurs would be really scary.

[Michael laughs]

Mindee: Not just magically but physically scary. They could really hurt you at any moment. So the fact that she provokes one and attacks them is again why Umbridge is stupid. So yeah, she probably would have.

[Alison laughs]

Mindee: But doing it is very, very, very, very, very dumb. So why did you do that, woman? That makes no sense. No way could you have took on all those centaurs.

Michael: This is… it’s so funny thinking… I’m remembering the line from a few chapters ago when Hermione actually says to Harry, “Oh Harry, you’re so naive.” And I’m like, Hermione?! [laughs]

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: Pot, it’s your turn to wear black, honey.

Eric: A couple caught being naive.

Michael: This is not your shining moment of a chapter.

[Alison laughs]

Michael: See, Raven? You got what you wanted.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Yeah.

Michael: We’re not piling on the Hermione love.

Eric: There you are.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: So does anybody else have anything to say? Because we’re going to change pace here, so does anybody have anything to say about Grawp or the forest, anything that doesn’t involve Ginny and the rest of the people?

Michael: Bye, Grawp. Bye.

[Everyone laughs]

Mindee: I have a comment, and this is just my own thing. Why are there no female centaurs? Does that bother anyone else besides me? It’s kind of…

Alison: There’s not?

Mindee: I don’t think…

Eric: They reproduce via mitosis.

[Everyone laughs]

Mindee: They’re kind of like the dwarves in Lord of the Rings where you only ever see male dwarves on the page, and the centaurs are kind of the same way. So that bugs me.

Eric: Don’t they make fun of that in one of the movies? They bring that up in Peter Jackson’s Two Towers where Gimli is talking about how the female dwarves look just like the male dwarves…

Mindee: Right, and they have beards and they jump out. Yeah.

Eric: Yeah.

Mindee: They do, and you’re right. I was thinking about that in particular with the centaurs.

Eric: Yeah. I wonder if… in the hunter and gather sense… I feel like the women would be closer to… maybe they do have more standard ancient gender stereotyping…

Mindee: Right.

Eric: … where the women just don’t hunt with [male] centaurs. Because this is clearly a warrior party – they are all carrying weapons, and they’re close enough. I just wonder where the centaurs really live in the forest in relation to where Harry and Hermione are…

Mindee: Right

Eric: … right now.

Michael: Hmm… I feel like the… I think the reason it didn’t bother me is because the centaurs do end up playing such a minor role in everything, so I’m not really looking for what gender… I guess I’m just not thinking about that when I read that, and I should be. But now that you brought it up, yeah, that is odd, but I can see Eric’s reasoning…

Eric: I just always envisioned these guys as the Advance Guard or the lookouts. You could never ever, ever get as close to the centaurs – where the centaurs really live – to see their females before you got arrows in you because…

Alison: Yeah, right, but…

Eric: … they do not care for humans – we know this. And they do not care for other beings. They are so in their ways and they…

Alison: Right.

Eric: … take ownership of their territory so well that you would never be able to see a female.

Mindee: But that’s also taking a very human approach to it, too. Remember, these are partially animals, and that’s not how it is in the animal world at all.

Eric: Interesting.

Mindee: That’s kind of my point. In actual herds – real horse herds – the females are actually in charge, and they’re the ones that are doing the protecting and the leading and stuff.

Eric: That’s interesting. Maybe it’s because the brain part is more humanoid…

Mindee: Right.

Eric: … [so] it would adopt the more traditional stereotype.

Mindee: Right, I would read it that way as well. But by doing that I think we’re putting human values on a non-human race.

Eric: Yeah – no, that’s true. I’m guilty of that.

Mindee: Right. Well, me too – for sure. Because that’s why I think they’re not there.

Eric: Yeah. So changing gears slightly as we head into the second half of the chapter, Ginny, Luna, Neville and Ron just conveniently show up right behind Harry and Hermione…

[Alison, Michael, and Mindee laugh]

Eric: … right as everything becomes totally cool again. And they happened to see Umbridge, Harry and Hermione enter the forest through a small window in Umbridge’s office, okay… and they’ve actually escaped. And this is the cool part here because they’ve escaped the Inquisitorial Squad, and I feel like this shows tremendous skill. Neville was barely conscious the last time we saw him in a headlock, and so was Ron. But they all managed to escape, and still they talk about joining Harry on this quest, and he tells them that they can’t come. He first tells Luna – he’s extremely rude to her. He’s like, “We’re not going anywhere if you’re involved.” It’s terrible; it’s really bad. Why is he so mean to these people, his friends, who have escaped and are now joining him? Is it his “saving people thing” rearing its ugly head again? Or does he just genuinely – and this goes on for a while in this chapter where Ron is talking down on Ginny – he wants it to just be him, Ron, and Hermione again?

Michael: Yeah, that part is a little weird…

Alison: Well…

Michael: … that he’s insistent on that classic set-up, and nobody else can be a part of the group.

Alison: I think Harry is so grumpy in this whole book.

[Michael laughs]

Alison: And when I read it the first time, I was like, “Oh my gosh.” The angsty Harry… there’s a part of me that really just cannot stand it at some times.” Right before the friends arrived where he’s yelling at Hermione about this really dumb plan, and I’m sitting there going… and Hermione just takes it; she doesn’t reply. If it [were] me, I would have said, “Well, what was your plan, genius? I mean, at least I did something.” Whereas Harry is just sitting back going, “Well, that was a dumb plan, but you still saved us.” Anyway. He’s that way through the whole book. I think that’s kind of the point. He’s in that rebellious, not nice guy mode still when this is happening.

Mindee: Can we talk about how wonderful it is to me that Ginny attacks Malfoy when they’re getting away? How loyal and wonderful is it that Ginny and Harry belong together because the first person Ginny goes for with her No. 1 spell skill is Malfoy.

Alison: Absolutely.

Eric: And honestly, this is terrifying. The Bat Bogey Hex. Let’s just take a minute to talk about this, okay? The Bat Bogey Hex. So I assume it means just “bogey” being the British term for “booger.”

Michael: Yeah, it’s your boogers.

Eric: Is everybody on that same page?

Mindee: I think they were like bats.

Michael: No, no, it’s your boogers flying at you. Like, they fly out of your nose and attack you.

Mindee: Oh, okay. Well, that’s…

Eric: Because that’s a two-pronged hex. First, you experience all of the mucus and boogers in your nose flying out, which cannot be pleasant. But then they have little wings or whatever, and they fly and attack your face. They just come at you.

Mindee: Oh. I think I blocked this out on purpose. I have an anti-mucus thing, so okay.

Michael: I believe…

Eric: It’s terrifying!

Mindee: Right!

Eric: And Ginny just wields it. She’s just like, “Hey, have this hex!”

Mindee: Right.

Eric: “You’re welcome.”

Mindee: You’ve kind of ruined my night by this revelation.

Eric: I’m sorry.

Mindee: Oh my gosh.

Michael: Well, according to Pottermore… it doesn’t have the Bat Bogey Hex specifically, but it has the Curse of the Bogeys, which I believe this is a spin off of, which causes just an extremely runny nose, and the incantation for that is Mucus Ad Nauseum.

Mindee: Oh my gosh.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Oh no.

Mindee: Oh, I forgot about that.

Alison: I am so not okay with this.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: The nose is a weapon to be used against you in the magical world. Your own nose can turn against you.

Michael: Alison, your point that it was Ginny, and she attacked Malfoy… this is another one of those moments where I smash my Thor coffee cup and I go, “Another!”

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: Because that’s another one of those background things that contributes to why they’re relationship is a good one and why Ginny is such a great character, and it’s just so relegated to the background and Harry being like, “So what? Who cares? Sirius is dying!” And it’s just so overwritten. I mean, I guess when we bring up Ginny, I’m trying to get to the core of why the fandom has problems with her.

Alison: Oh, I love her.

Mindee: I don’t get it at all.

Eric: It’s just the movie. It’s beginning and end, it’s the movie.

Michael: But I don’t think it’s just the movie. I do think there’s something to be blamed about how she is presented in the book… and not saying that how she’s presented makes her negative in any way, but perhaps… because I’ve heard people say – not just using the movie as proof for their feelings, but the books – that they don’t like Ginny and Harry together, and it’s a pretty genuine feeling on people’s part. And I think when we just see those kind of moments shoved off to the side, for me, that’s what bothers me, is that Ginny doesn’t really… Ginny gets some great moments, but more… another! Another!

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Well, yeah, I mean, this had to be pointed out. I even read this, and I skipped over the fact that she attacked Malfoy. It wasn’t anybody else; it was she. She’s probably the most qualified to attack Malfoy in the room, more than Ron and more than Neville.

Michael: Yeah. Definitely. Oh, absolutely, because she probably has true aim compared to the rest of them. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, so there’s that. We’re getting off topic. I want to bring it back. There’s this moment where… here we go.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: So there’s this moment where Ginny has to defend herself: “‘I’m three years older than you were when you fought You-Know-Who over the Sorcerer’s Stone,’ she said fiercely, ‘and it’s because of me that Malfoy’s stuck back in Umbridge’s office with giant flying bogies attacking him'”…

Mindee: Ugh.

Eric: So there you go, Mindee. That’s actually what happened.

[Everyone laughs]

Mindee: Ugh. Let’s not keep reading that part, okay?

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I’ll stop reading now. That’s the last time that you’ve head of it. But Harry says, “Yeah, but…” and then Neville interrupts. He says, “We were all in the DA together. It was all supposed to be about fighting You-Know-Who, wasn’t it? And this is the first chance we’ve had to do something real, or was that all a game or something?” and now Harry is… words are failing him because now he’s like… okay, we can finally probably start moving to get Sirius because it’s been hours at this point, and he’s just like, “Man, I want to go, but there’s no way to get there, and also, I don’t want you to come with me, but I don’t want to argue it, but I don’t want you to come with me, but I don’t want to argue it.” And they just come up with reason after reason why they should participate.

Alison: Honestly, I think that’s Neville’s best line in the entire series. It’s fantastic. It’s so true.

Mindee: Right.

Eric: “Was that all a game? This is the real deal. We’ve been preparing for it all year, Harry. You have to let us come with you.”

Michael: Yeah. I like that moment from Neville definitely because it’s a nice way to grow his character and start showing him coming out of his shell because he wouldn’t have said anything like that, the last four years.

Alison: Oh, yeah.

Eric: But it’s just… again, though… back to my question about Harry. This is on page 761. It’s Neville quote that we just read, but at the bottom of the page it says, “If he could have chosen any members of the DA in addition to himself, Ron, and Hermione to join him in the attempt to rescue Sirius, he would not have picked Ginny, Neville, or Luna.” That’s JKR writing about that. And I’m like, “Why?!”

Mindee: Right.

Eric: They’re awesome.

Alison: Yeah, I don’t understand… I maybe understand Neville, and I maybe understand Luna, but I don’t understand Ginny.

Mindee: No, I agree.

Alison: Didn’t she do well?

Michael: I think maybe this is Harry’s saving thing because even though I think there’s a mixture here of Harry’s feeling about their aptitude, Harry’s feeling about his own aptitude – and that of Ron and Hermione – and Harry’s need to protect people. Because I think with all the adventures that he has gone on with Ron and Hermione, they’ve subconsciously proven to Harry that they can hack it, whatever they go through. And it’s like he’s requesting the specific team for his… it’s like a video game, and you can only choose two other party members, and Harry wants the two [whom] he’s worked with before. Because he doesn’t really… he’s not sure of the skill set even though he’s seen it developed. I mean, it did take Neville awhile to learn a lot of the thing in the DA, [while] Luna has been on a really spotty track record from what little get of her because she’s not always paying attention.

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Michael: So in that respect, I guess Harry’s concerns are moderately fair if he’s also mixing in his need to protect his friends.

Eric: Yeah, is it just that he just doesn’t want to deal with the possibility that they could get hurt, and he would feel guilty about it?

Eric: Yeah, I think there is also, though – because Mindee and Alison have touched on it, too – that issue that Harry’s anger and his need to not be slowed down, and he also figures that more people is more of a burden at this point.

Alison: Yeah.

Mindee: I would have to think that he’s got to be a little concerned about some stealth.

Michael: Yes. [laughs]

Mindee: So we know that we’re going into the Ministry of Magic and six people – what is it? – seven people [are] a whole lot harder to sneak in than three. Because he’s got to assume that this… I would assume that there was something clandestine going on regardless of what’s happening to Sirius, […] so look, the last thing you want to do is set off alarms. If I were going to write this chapter, that would be the angle I would have played instead of “All you guys just suck!”

Eric: Fewer is better considering where they’re going.

Mindee: Yeah, right, that they’re better sneaking in and helping in a stealth way rather than clumsy, fumbling, Neville and Luna and her silliness.

Eric: So it’s like the author knows that this is going to descend into the final battle with a ton of people present, but the characters don’t, […] so it makes more sense for there to be fewer of them.

Mindee: I mean, she could have made the same argument and still have come out the same way without it being so “Why are you dissing these people so badly? They’re your friends.”

Michael: Well, and I think she does touch on it whenever Luna opens her mouth because Harry seems to be most adamant not to bring Luna, not just because he doesn’t know her, but [also,] he seems to think that everything she says is not pertinent.

[Alison, Eric, and Michael laugh]

Eric: But here’s the antidote to that: She comes up with the Thestrals! This is just the last point of the chapter. I thought it was interesting and sick, the Thestrals, who of course, we love and hate… they just creep us out a little bit. Turns out that they have been attracted by the scent of blood, which is… it’s Grawp’s blood that’s all over Harry and Hermione, and they don’t need to go looking for more. More just come at the continued smell of blood. But Luna is able to prove her worth by saying a little bit about Thestrals, including that they are particularly good at finding where they need to go. I’m going to find the quote here in a minute, but actually… seems like they’re all Hufflepuffs.

Mindee: [laughs] I was just going to say that.

Eric: But that interesting point – I think Luna says Hagrid said that about Thestrals – makes me wonder the device of Thestral magic. We can’t imagine there have been wizards for centuries riding around on Thestrals, but I’m wondering why… what makes Thestrals so great at getting to where they need to go, and could it be that they’re tapping into some of the same navigational skills that the owls in the magical world have? What do you guys think?

Alison: Well, it could be some kind of… lots of animals have almost like a homing device, where they just intuitionly know… that is not a word. [laughs]

Eric: Intuitively!

Alison: Thank you.

Michael: There you go.

Alison: It’s one of those days. They just know how to make their way home, so maybe it’s something along those lines but in reverse, where since they’re magical, they know how to… they’ve got Google Maps in their head, and they can figure it out? [laughs]

Eric and Michael: Hmm.

Mindee: It might be tied into their death thing. You can see them when you die, and you haven’t… if they are a spectral of death, which they’re never called that, but let’s just say for argument that they are, the idea that death as an anthropomorphic creature can be anywhere it wants like Santa Claus and has that ultimate… so they’re Santa Claus in reverse.

[Eric and Mindee laugh]

Eric: That’s pretty cool. That just got really cool imagery. Actually, I thought of The Nightmare Before Christmas a little bit there. Here’s the quote: “‘The Crumple-Horned Snorkack can’t fly,’ said Luna in a dignified voice. ‘But they can, and Hagrid says they’re very good at finding places their riders are looking for.'” I just wonder what would have given these Thestrals that trait. Why is that an additional…? Is it because it’s convenient for plot, or is there a reason in the nature of Thestrals? It’s a recurring theme on the show. I do like to ask the nature of Thestrals question a lot because we know that there is ambiguity as to who can see them and when. It’s brought up in this chapter. Ron just bluntly goes over it like, “Oh, them. Those are the things you can see if you’ve seen somebody snuff it, right?” But I just wonder what makes Thestrals Thestrals.

Alison: Is there any information about that on Pottermore?

Michael: Yeah, there is. It was released…

Alison: I wonder if…

Michael: It doesn’t really say why. It just says that they’re just traditionally associated with death and bad omens, even though that’s not really how they should be… I mean, obviously, to me, they’re just another reinforcement of the theme that death is not something to be feared; it’s something to… it’s a natural part of your life. Just in the way that the Thestrals end up being to magical people when people die, and it’s something that you have to come to terms with and accept. It’s just a very… I think it’s a fascinating, absolutely brilliant embodiment of that. I don’t like the trait that they can just go places because they’re “I have an amazing sense of direction that has nothing to do with that.”

Eric: Is it just, though…? Couldn’t it be more symbolic that… I’m now thinking a little bit ahead but that the Thestrals, these creatures of death, carry Harry off to witness the death of a family member?

Michael: Oh, yeah.

Eric: He’s being carried on the waves of [laughs] these creatures ultimately to the end of this book, where he suffers a great loss.

Michael: Well, yeah, I almost feel like that’s one of the major reasons she has the Thestrals do that because something I’ve always been confused about and another thing that frustrates me with this chapter is, they’re all like, “Oh my God, what could we possibly use to fly to the Ministry?” and I’m like, “The Quidditch pitch and the broom shed is right over there. Go get some brooms.” [laughs] This isn’t a hard question. But it even seems more risky to me to fly on Thestrals because some of the group can’t even see what they’re flying on.

Mindee: Yeah, that would not be fun.

Michael: It seems extremely dangerous.

Eric: That would be almost as terrifying as having your boogers fly at you.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: I said I wouldn’t mention that again…

Alison: I had to sneak that in there.

Eric: They could’ve also taken the Floo Network. I mean, that is unguarded now. It’s an unguarded fireplace. They should’ve tied Malfoy up. I mean, I don’t know, maybe it’s just still being attacked, but I think they probably should’ve tied up some of the Inquisitorial Squad if they didn’t. I don’t think that was explicitly mentioned.

Michael: Well, and the thing with the Thestrals being able to hone in and find things… that’s a bit of random information that’s dropped. I feel that it’s equatable in Chamber of Secrets to when Dumbledore has the throwaway line about “Oh, phoenixes have healing powers with their tears, and they can carry really heavy stuff. And I’m just telling you this just in case.”

[Eric laughs]

Michael: And it’s kind of the same thing when Hagrid is like, “Oh, they have an amazing sense of direction. I’m just saying this because…”

Mindee: “… it’s going to be convenient later.”

Michael: Yes, because that will come up later.

Mindee: Well, and can I just say, coming at it from a writer perspective, it’s so easy to pull threads, and things fall apart. So at some point, you have to just go “Well, I love it anyway.” The thing about Order of the Phoenix… if Dumbledore had just told Harry right from the beginning, what his concern was and why he wanted him to do Occlumency, the whole book would not happen. And that happens all the time in fiction, where we have stories [where] if people would just talk to one other, oh, gee, nobody would die. It’s like Romeo and Juliet. I mean, for five seconds, we could’ve had a happy ending. So when you’re writing the book, it’s hard to make that stuff happen and it be believable, […] so you end up with all these kind of “Oh, that’s a very convenient arrival of a giant to save us.” Those kinds of things happening.

Michael: Well, and I think the reason we… and I try to remind myself of that exactly, Mindee, every time I read these books – especially Order because I’m most frustrated by Order – and I think it is because the prior four books I really do think spoiled their readers. Just the level of…

Eric: I would agree 100 percent.

Michael: … insane thinking ahead and detail. And Rowling has admitted herself that Order was a big challenge for her to write. I mean, we had a huge, three-year gap between Goblet and Order, and she struggled a lot with this one, and it’s like when Pixar was on the top, and their movies were so good, and everybody’s like, “Oh my God, Pixar makes the best animated movies ever.” And then they made Cars 2, and everybody was like, “Oh.”

[Everyone laughs]

Michael: It’s… that was a movie, and you made it, and it’s okay. It’s not the worst thing ever; it’s still better than anything anybody else is doing, but it’s not quite the level we’ve come to expect from you. And I really do hate saying that about Rowling, and I’m sure a lot of people are going “huh.”

Alison: She’s going to be offended when she listens.

[Michael laughs]

Mindee: No, well, but I would have to agree, and I think that by the time we had Book 5 was when Harry Potter mania had really, really, truly hit the mainstream, and that probably had an effect on her and her writing. There'[re] a lot of things that go on when you’re writing a book with your editor, and so those things were probably going on, but I would say… And I totally lost my point.

[Alison, Michael, and Mindee laugh]

Mindee: Whatever it was, it just went flying out of my brain.

Michael: Rowling and her…

Mindee: Oh! I have it back. I have it back.

Eric: Oh, she got it.

Mindee: So while there'[re] lots of problems with this book, I will say that, emotionally, I had some of the strongest reactions to the book, and that is what saves it and makes it so wonderful, the way I absolutely hated Umbridge. I still hate Umbridge. I just hate her. With my whole soul, I hate this woman.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: She’s the perfect villain. She’s really good.

Mindee: Right, and some of my favorite moments are in this book, like when the twins drop their swamp, and they have all this revenge. So there’s just… Emotionally it’s still very, very satisfying despite its flaws. And that’s okay with me. That works.

Eric: Yeah, definitely. And I love Book 6 right behind Book 3 in terms of my favorite books, so I definitely think that…

Michael and Mindee: Me too.

Eric: That really went a long way for me after Book 5 to not quitting Harry Potter, the fact that I loved Book 6, because the question is, because Order of the Phoenix is my least favorite book, so why didn’t I stop? It was my first book that I ever went to a midnight release for, was Order of the Phoenix, but there are… Emotionally, I couldn’t handle it. It was so dark, and Sirius, my favorite character, died. So how do we continue to go on? But the writing is so rich, and like you’re saying, there’s so much still going on, and you have to find the answer to it. By the time you get to Half-Blood Prince, I feel like maybe the pressure was off or she became more able to deal with it. It’s a tighter book, and it’s funny again in a way that Order of the Phoenix just couldn’t be because it had to be the angst book.

Michael: Well, and I think it’s just, again, the frustration with this particular section, like we said Chapter 30, and now it’s come and rolled around back for Chapter 32, is that almost half, if not more than half, of the things that happen in Chapter 32, in this chapter, are set up in Chapter 30. And I think that’s what really threw me was… And I really didn’t realize it until we started discussing it on these last few episodes, but I guess I expect Rowling to do more elaborate foreshadowing than “This happened two chapters ago. Now here are the consequences of it.” That’s unusual to me.

Mindee: Well, you could argue that a little bit. So we know it’s the playoff between setting stuff up and having the mystery. So Hagrid has been gone for a long time and that we’re supposed to really wonder why. So on the one hand, we have this mystery carrying through that we don’t get solved until Chapter 30, so I guess I could… I think the groundwork is there, but because you don’t know because it’s wrapped up in the mystery maybe that causes it to feel a little bit more like immediate payoff instead of what we’re used to. I would argue that, anyway.

Eric: Yeah, I mean, I guess there has to be some immediate, “Oh, surprise!” too, not just the surprise that’s been building the whole book, but it really… I think something would be lost if it didn’t feel like this is in the moment, much like… The graveyard scene in Goblet of Fire probably best captures what I’m talking about, where you don’t know what’s going to happen, and Harry only barely escapes, but everything is piling on top of each other. You guys know what I’m saying?

Alison: We’re building to the climax in this book. And so things are just going to start falling.

Eric: Fall.

Alison: Like dominoes.

Eric: Things are just going to fall, yeah.

Michael: I mean, maybe, though, in the weird way it has that bizarre effect where because the scene with the centaurs and Grawp is so frustrating, that you’re almost pulled into the same mentality as Harry where it’s like, “Could we move on, please?” Because she does work so hard in all of the books to put us in Harry’s shoes, and actually, we don’t get a lot of observations from Harry and a lot of dialogue from Harry in this last chapter. So to make up for it, we’re just evoking the feeling by the events so that we feel the same as Harry, to push it.

Mindee: Last point on this – for me, anyway. So I also think that JK suffers a little bit from need to fulfill patterns. So if we think about Grawp, he basically is our monster of the book for Hagrid, and I think that she feels like she’s got to hit these notes in each book, which I think with Book 6 and definitely with Book 7, she gives that up a little bit. So maybe it’s just that sideplots got carried away here in this particular book, and I think, as readers, we would have been okay not having Hagrid have his monster in this particular book, so… That’s just my theory on what happened in terms of Grawp.

Eric: Oh, that’s interesting.

Mindee: I think she’s just like, “Well, Hagrid has got to have a new monster, so what are we going to do this time? Oh, let’s have a brother,” and that once you bring in that piece on the chess board, you’ve got to use it if you’re writing the book, and so it just inevitably led to this extra unnecessary, probably, detours into the forest and all that stuff.

Eric: Well, at the end of this chapter, they are climbing onto Thestrals, who are good finders.

[Michael and Mindee laugh]

Eric: That wraps up Chapter 33.

Michael: So of course, before we end our discussion this week, we have a Podcast Question of the Week to present here, and since we’ve done such extensive discussion on this chapter and its place in the book, I’m going to ask about this chapter and perhaps present some ways that you, the listeners, can be involved in revising the chapter! My question is, we’ve presented a few options for how to revise this chapter with the actions taken in the forest, citing uncharacteristic moves by main characters. Some of our suggestions included things about Grawp’s involvement, Hermione’s choices, changing the actions of the centaurs, and even Umbridge. Even the Order of the Phoenix film has presented an alternative. If you could present an alternative way to make these events play out, maintaining Rowling’s flare for twists and recalling plot elements, would you utilize any of the suggestions we’ve presented on the show? What other ways could you tie everything together to get the dream team together and out of the forest?” So to answer our Podcast Question of the Week make sure [to] head over to the Alohomora! main site and get your writing pencils out and get really creative with this one.

Alison: All right, and we’d like to thank Mindee for being our special guest today. You were a great guest, and can you tell our listeners where to find your books?

Mindee: Yeah. My books are available wherever books are sold, actually. Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Book Depository, indie bookstores.

Michael: Mindee, do you have a website?

Mindee: I do: www.mindeearnett.com.

Michael: Yeah. And what were your book series again?

Mindee: So my first series is the Arkwell Academy series, starting with The Nightmare Affair. It’s about 16-year-old Dusty Everhart, who happens to be a perfectly normal, half-human girl and half-nightmare, as in the folkloric creature that sits on your chest when you’re trying to sleep and gives you bad dreams. Which, by the way, is a really crappy job to have…

[Eric and Michael laugh]

Mindee: … especially for a teenage girl.

Michael: Hey, she’s 16 and employed, right? That’s got to count for something.

Mindee: Well…

[Alison and Michael laughs]

Mindee: She’s employed by her magickind government.

Eric: Oh, I see.

Mindee: But they sent her to go […] dream feed – as it’s called – on certain people, and she’s sent one night to dream feed on her crush from her old human high school, a boy named Eli. So she’s completely mortified, and then when she’s doing this, she discovers that he’s dreaming about a murder taking place at her current school, which is a school for magickind only that he should not even know exists. The very next day, she finds out the murder has taken place and that she and Eli have the ability to predict the future through signs and symbols in his dreams. So they are tasked by the magickind government to use this ability to identify the killer and stop him before he strikes again.

Eric: That is awesome.

Mindee: Thank you. And then my other series is not at all fantasy – it’s science fiction – Avalon. It’s a group of teenage spaceship thieves. The main character, Jeth, is looking for a way out of the criminal life because it’s kind of bad.

[Eric laughs]

Mindee: And they are sent off to recover a spaceship that’s gotten lost in the middle of space with an area… a reputation like the Bermuda Triangle of space. So that one I call Firefly meets Guardians of the Galaxy.

Alison: [laughs] That’s funny.

Michael: Ooh.

Mindee: Or Firefly meets The Godfather, so whichever way you like it.

Michael: That’s a nice combo.

Mindee: And I had so much fun being here today. Just thank you so much for this opportunity. This was fabulous.

Eric: Thank you.

Michael: It is our pleasure.

Eric: This is an opportunity that we do extend to all listeners of our show, and we want to remind you, the listener, that if you do want to be a guest on our show, you can. Please visit the “Be on the Show” page at alohomora.mugglenet.com. There are some requirements, all the guidelines, everything, suggestions from us, are all on that page so definitely check out “Be on the Show,” and you too may hear yourself on a future episode of Alohomora!

Michael: And of course, there are plenty of ways to get in contact with us. More ways than to get in contact with Sirius Black, apparently. Not by a magical mirror…

[Alison and Eric laugh]

Michael: … but you can get in touch with us on Twitter at @AlohomoraMN. You can also find us on facebook at facebook.com/openthedumbledore, our Tumblr account (mnalohomorapodcast), [or] our phone number (206-GO-ALBUS, or 206-462-5287), or you can call and leave us a message. You can also leave us a short message on audioBoom, previously known as Audioboo, but they have Accio-ed themselves an M at the end of that, and you can actually find that through our website, alohomora.mugglenet.com. AudioBoom is a free service, so leave us a small recording. All you need is a microphone for that. Please make sure [to] keep your messages on audioBoom to us under 60 seconds so that we can make sure to feature them on the show.

Alison: And while you are on alohomora.mugglenet.com leaving us a message, head on over to our store to check out of sweatshirts, long sleeve tees, tote bags, flip-flops, and so much more because…

Michael: Don’t buy flip-flops right now, guys.

Alison: No.

[Michael laughs]

Alison: You probably want the sweatshirt right now.

Eric: Hey, unless you’re in the Southern Hemisphere.

Alison: That’s true.

Michael: No. No.

[Alison, Eric, and Michael laugh]

Alison: We also have ringtones that are free and available on the website, so go ahead and check those out.

Eric: And of course, there is the smartphone app, which is available both on this side of the pond and the other. Prices do vary, but it’s available for Android and iOS devices. On this app of ours, you can find transcripts, bloopers, alternate endings, host vlogs, and more.

[Show music begins]

Eric: This has been a blast. I am Eric Scull.

Michael: I am Michael Harle.

Alison: And I am Alison Siggard. Thank you for listening to Episode 111 of Alohomora!

Eric: Open the Dumbledore. Watch out for the bogeys!

[Show music continues]

Alison: [laughs] Well, speaking of Hermione, that brings us into the next subject, which was… There was lots of Hermione love this week. Oh my gosh, I’m sorry. Hold on. [coughs] Sorry, let me start that over.

Eric: That happens. [laughs]

Alison: [coughs] Oh my gosh.

Eric: You okay?

[Alison coughs]

Eric: Need some water?

Alison: No, I’m good. I’m good. Sorry.

[Michael laughs]

Eric: You sure?

Alison: I’m good. I’m not going to die.

Eric: You can get some water. It’s cool.

Alison: Yeah. No, I’ll grab some in a minute. But anyway, starting over.